 I'm Mark Shklav, the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Sea program. Today we're going across the sea to Malaysia to meet Sipa Selvaratnam. Sipa is a Malaysia advocate. She is a lawyer with the law firm of Tommy Thomas in Kuala Lumpur. Sipa zealously advocates for her clients. Sipa also advocates for positive values that provide hope and encouragement to others. I've asked Sipa to discuss her background, life and law practice in Malaysia, and what fuels her advocacy. Welcome Sipa. It's good to see you. It's been a while since we've seen each other. How are you? Hello, Mark. I'm very well. Thank you, and it's lovely to see you looking very well. I think it's been about two years since we last met, so it's such a pleasure. Thank you for having me on your show. Well, yeah, let's get into it. Tell me a little bit about yourself. What's your background? Where did you grow up? How did you get into law? How did you become a lawyer? Right. Well, once I was born in Malaysia, I've always lived in Malaysia except for about five years that I was studying in the United Kingdom. My ancestry goes back to Sri Lanka. So on my mother's side, my mother's grandfather, parents came to Malaysia in 1890s, more than 130 years ago. And Sri Lanka was then called Ceylon. So they were from the Jefna Peninsula in Ceylon. And the British, both Ceylon and Malaysia or Malaya, as it was then called, were British colonies. And so the British brought my grandparents over here, and traditionally it used to be for positions like Station Master and so on. And then many of them would go back to Ceylon, but my parents decided to stay on after independence and take on Malaysian citizenship. And education was very, very important. It still is for the Jefna Tamils in Malaysia everywhere, in fact, Jefna Tamils everywhere. And so they put their four children, my parents, through tertiary education. Well, because Sri Lankan minority, Sri Lankan Tamils are minorities in Malaysia, and we've had affirmative action in Malaysia towards the Malay race. It was not always easy to get university seats here in Malaysia. With the four of us siblings, we went abroad for our tertiary education, and I went to England, Wales, and West Cardiff University of Wales, and then to Cambridge to do my law. But if you ask me why law? Why did you become, why, what prompted you, what motivated you to become an advocate? So reading law was quite by accident. You see the Sri Lankan psyche or the Salonist psyche is you'd better be a professional so that you're independent. So you either have to be a doctor or an engineer or lawyer or accountant, and by default, I didn't like the others. I said, all right, all right, I'll do law. But Mark, it was one of the two best decisions in my life. Reading law was fabulous. I realized it came naturally to me. And of course, the second decision was choosing my husband Mohan, who you also know. Right. Yeah, well, okay. That sounds like fun decisions. Now, tell me a little bit about your practice. What type of practice do you have? What type of law do you advocate? Right, so I'm very lucky. I practice exactly what I'm interested in and what I learned at university. So because I went to University of Wales Cardiff, where maritime law was the major attraction. We had Professor Keb Wallader teaching the cause on Saturday, and he was instrumental in promulgating the Unclossed, the Convention on the Seas. And so I took maritime law at university, loved it, international trade, corporate insolvency in my master's, and so that's what I do. I practice maritime law, international trade, commercial law, and corporate insolvency. And so we have all come together. And is that, I mean, is that admiralty law? Is that within? Absolutely. I'm sorry? Yes, admiralty law and the wider network encompasses international trade, commodity movements. Yes, all of that. And I guess Malaysia is, I mean, it's in the, there's a lot of water around Malaysia, right? I mean, that makes sense. So there must be a lot of different types of cases that you've handled. Absolutely. Well, we've got a huge long coastal line, and you must know that Malaysia, we've got two parts. It's the peninsula that is sandwiched between Singapore and Thailand. And then we've got the other part, Sabansarok, two states in the island of Borneo. And that's just surrounded by the South China Sea. So plenty of sea, plenty of active ports, a lot of commodity movements. So yes, maritime law is actually very critical, very essential for us. Right, I mean, your country has the ocean between two major parts of it. And yeah, yeah, that's quite interesting. In a way, Hawaii is similar. We're away from the main part of the United States. Now I notice that you've had a lot of interesting cases. And I've seen one extraordinary case that is very interesting to me. And I've just learned from you that you written a book about it. It will come out in April and it's about a super luxurious yacht called the equanimity. And I looked up this yacht on the internet and I mean, wow, I mean, it has a heliport. It has all sorts of, I mean, I think it has hot tub and all different types of things within it. Now what was this book about that you're writing? It was a case, it's based on the case, right? What is this all about? Mark, you've touched something that is closest to my heart. It was the highest point of my life and my career. But to narrate that story, I just need to tell you a little bit about Malaysia, right? So we became independent from British rule in 1957. And for 61 years, we were governed by one ruling party. Yeah. And what happened was in 2018, we had a seismic shift in mindset because after 61 years, we had a change in government. The opposition finally formed a coalition government in May of 2018. What was the catalyst for that change was this candle, an international scandal called the 1MDB. And it involved the worst case of kleptocracy as defined by the US DOJ involving our former prime minister who was then subsequently charged and convicted of multiple breaches of crimes. And in the centre of that saga was money stolen, money in excess of 4.2 billion US dollars from the people, taxpayers' money, using 1MDB, which was a national wealth fund. And monies were siphoned off, stolen and dazzled, you can use any one of those terms to describe it, and went everywhere, many, many places. But 260 million US dollars, US dollars and in millions, yes, was used to purchase this super your equanimity. And so as soon as we had this change in government, and this was the people, so you must understand how it felt after 61 years when the people's will to have integrity and transparency and accountability brought back into government. When we had a new government, the first task was to actually clean it up, bring back money's loss, and therefore the equanimity which was then in Indonesia was somehow through diplomatic channels brought within waters of Malaysia. And so my skills match perfectly. I have been doing admiralty laws, maritime laws for many, many years, by then more than 25 years, and my law practice partner was the Attorney General of Malaysia at that point in time. So he approached me and said, how should we do this? And I said, admiralty laws, the best most transparent way that will bring back credibility to the system, the best way to recover maximum amount in recovery proceeds. And here we're looking to recover from the judicial sale hundreds of million. And so we put engaged a mark, processes of the admiralty law it took us nine months. What would normally take a super your 18 to 24 months sell in the average market because we're talking in a millions of dollars unique, only about 100 or less individuals, billionaires in the world have that kind of. And they take a long time to make the decision. And what would normally take 18 to 24 months to sell be sold in nine months. And in that process and recovered 126 million US dollars for the people of Malaysia for the government of Malaysia then. And so in that process mark there was there were huge lessons that I learned. And so I put that in a book. And it is put in seven maritime lessons because the lessons from maritime it just challenge the traditional wisdom the traditional ways we used to do things from you know keeping the appraise value confidential how we sold it. So I put it in seven lessons. And then I have a last last lesson which is called the plus one, which is the spiritual dimension, because I learned so much about life in that nine months. That's the space to watch for for my seven maritime lessons and the values as well that came with that. I want to put back on the screen a picture of the book cover. Take a look at that book cover. And that's the that's the equanimity right on there right that's that's a painting of the equanimity. And so that there was funds that were siphoned off from the people's government to buy that boat originally by someone I guess close to the government. And, and then you were able to seize it you were the book is about the arrest of the yacht and sell it. And, and, and you were involved in that case that was your case. Right, I headed the team of lawyers for the arrest saw her to the, the, the, the really difficult management of a seven star princess, you know, the most luxurious most expensive most delicate. So we saw the management of her, and then actually had to go out there and find a buyer to recover. One thing you mentioned you mentioned Department of Justice United States Department of Justice. How did I mean, I'm glad to hear that the United States helped out somehow but how did they, how did the Department of Justice help out how were they involved. Mark, I can't tell you how grateful I am to the US and specifically to the Department of Justice. So they commenced for for future action through the eclectocracy department recovery of assets department, and they did all the tracking for us the trails it went through 32 different accounts in and out mindless meaningless flow of accounts to eventually get into the vessel to the builder of the yacht, and we had to trace her through 32 accounts, but that was made only possible by the DOJ held that space for us when we couldn't do it ourselves so they did it in 2016 2017 remember we only changed our government in 2018. So we're tremendously grateful that the DOJ should have done it for someone else it didn't matter to them, they were going to to seize assets and repatriated back to Malaysia so how wonderful is that that another country should have your back. That was what it was. That is actually very good to hear that law can help out each other in different countries I mean, that's actually very remarkable. I didn't know that story, and I'm looking forward to your book comes out in April. Is that right. This is the first public speaking of. So, thank you for this opportunity. Well good good I'm looking forward to your book. Now I want to I want to go back a little bit and talk a little bit about what's happening in Malaysia what what is going on how have you dealt personally and professionally with the pandemic how things changed what's going on in Malaysia right now. With respect to the pandemic and dealing with it. Okay, so, Mark, we aren't in a terribly good place, obviously the world isn't because of the pandemic. And I mentioned to you that we had a wonderful shift in government, the majority will be in 2018, but unfortunately, like last year in February 2020, just as COVID was about to rage around the world in February. And it was not through the people's vote or elections. It was just a political maneuver. So it has been a dip, but we remain hopeful, things can change, hope's always the way forward, but so the new government came in. They managed it pretty well with our Ministry of Health. We had movement control orders in place we still have in varying degrees. So we are borders are close international borders are close, unless you really have a reason to travel like my daughter had to travel back to study Netzen in UK, she could travel back but I can't go to visit her. So they're on movement control, even within states in Malaysia, it's often on when the numbers spike we can't move. But since June, lawyers have been considered essential service so we can return to office, but most of our hearings are done remotely, either, you know, on a zoom platform like this, or in some other platform. Witnesses are heard remote as well if it's urgent. So we've had access to justice despite the terrible pandemic. So everything's not lost we've had to learn a lot of new things. Obviously, it's made this possible mark I would never have thought of doing this session with you. And so it's made global accessibility possible. But we've also uncovered rather not so pleasant environments where we've seen foreign labors put through terrible horrific conditions of living. But luckily, that's the silver lining, if you may call it that, because of the clusters of COVID that broke in that inhumane condition, the way they were oppressed has come to light and hopefully that can be redressed. So it's been a mixture of good and bad mark, but we manage we always manage we always thrive we always survive. Well, that's interesting. It's a good insight about Malaysia for us here in the United States to hear these things. I also noticed, and I mentioned that you're an advocate for, for hopeful things and I watched a program sponsored by an organization called TEDx, in which you talked about peaceful courage in quotes peaceful courage. What is peaceful courage or what was that program about what is TEDx what what are your involvement as an advocate in that area about Right. So that program that you saw, I just was a guest speaker. Everyone knows TED TED talks. And that's for in spreading good ideas inspirational talks about life. And the TEDx is the, the international version of it it goes into communities and communities all around the world can post whatever they want whatever they think is inspiring to that community so it's an multiplier effect. Now the program you saw was actually the TEDx youth, organized by school children high school children and they invited me to come and speak. So why did I choose peaceful courage. It's a point of passion for me, courage is a courage integrity and and and joy is these are, you know, things I think about a lot. This, this children group of youth came to me I thought well I'm addressing a group of 18 to 13 to 18. What should I talk about so again I go back to the context in Malaysia. If I can generalize we're a collective society, rather than individual societies meaning we tend to subordinate our individual rights and freedoms for the higher good of community. And that's because we're taught to do that, you know, and so it becomes like a demand for compliance. And in that process, there's a lot of inhibitions to voicing opinions about dissenting. And so indoctrinations happen, bullying happens, abuse happens. And of course that can, you know, extrapolate it to drug addiction and all sorts of things. So I thought, let me speak to this children about courage, courage to actually speak your views, not to just blindly follow but think should I agree should I not and to do it peacefully meaning without anger without resentment. And how does one do that. And, and so it was that I put in place what I do in my advocacy, how I find peaceful courage and I put it in a systematic way for them. You can only evoke peaceful courage, as I call it, if you go into a place that is happy and peaceful inside of you. And so that's a step to doing that. And then working from that platform so that was in a nutshell, what I tried to do in that 18 minute program of the TEDx youth mark. And I think we have a screenshot of the program, peaceful courage there you are. And, and your, your audience was youth, I see. I liked it. I'm not that young. I enjoyed your program, and, and thought it was very nice and you were, I, I could, you know, I could sense that you were trying to communicate in a way, a subtle way to youth, and so that they could see it's okay. It's okay to be strong. It's okay. And in Malaysian society, is that a good, I mean, is that, is that a value you're trying to get across? Is that, is that what you felt was important for the youngsters and is that something that there is a good reception for? I think we are beginning to liberalize the thinking. So for a long, long time, we have a herd mentality. It's a top down. I say it's good for you whether it's your parent, your grandparent, your, your religious teacher, schools, whatever. I say it's good. Don't ask questions just do it. But of course, with this generation of youth, you can't do that anymore. They're exposed to worldviews and they are questioning all the time. And I'm just trying to encourage them to think that way. Yes, do question, but do it peacefully. Don't be, don't, you don't have to be a rebel. You don't have to throw chairs and a tantrum to be heard. That's another way of getting that. Be sure in yourself what your value is, what it is that's important to you. And then you're able to articulate in a manner that the other person is able to receive, whether it's a politician, whether it's your headmaster, whether it's your boss, whether it's your peer, whether it's a group that you're heading. But the same principle cuts across all of these different segments of society. And are you, I mean, you were addressing Malaysian youth in Malaysia society. But is this more of a, is this a worldwide idea, worldwide thought that you think about? I mean, is this a major problem that we're facing across the world today? Perhaps I should ask that. Are we, you know, is this, you know, you talked about youth and I guess all young people now have technology a little more than we did or that I did. And so are you talking about a universal theme here? I guess that's what I'm my question. Absolutely. It is universal. And I think it's time and it's already happening that we all embrace it and we will. We will as a matter of timing meant matter of degree. But it is something that applies across cultures across borders. And that is to decide whether we want to allow the mistress. So you ask what is the major problem. I think there's a feeling of lack of safety. We all feel unsafe. Every one of us feels unsafe in different degrees, because there is a lack of trust in the system, whether it's politicians, whether it's institutions, it's corporations, the judiciary, whatever the system is, there is still a reticence now that never I think existed for the last 50 years to this degree about whether they're batting for us, whether they have our backs, the way the DOJ had a whack, are they all having this, even my own, even our own. And so when you are in a place of mistrust, then there is fear that's induced because I don't know if I am safe. And when we are feeling unsafe, Mark, the best, the best way to defend is to attack. And that's when the bodyguard of our individual bodyguard, which is anger comes to the fore and then comes out as hate speeches, anger destructive, you listen to me, I'm right. And so anger then degenerates and everybody is in the position of defending their own turf. So that actually is the problem as I see it worldwide, everywhere. And what really this anger is trying to shield is a vulnerable individual inside who's feeling unsafe. And beneath that vulnerable individual is a fully joyful being, that's all of us. Our natural being, Mark, is to be joyous and laughter and happiness. And when we're happy and joyful, we are expensive, right. At some point, we're all going to tire of being angry, and we're looking for models. And that's when it's important that we have models who show what it is to have the power of joy, and then peaceful courage that comes from joy. And, you know, you bring up a lot of thoughts that about, you know, the intrapacific bar association, which we're both members brings everybody together, which is a good, a good thing and I think that's what you're saying I mean what, what that I mean you're talking about a universal issues that are facing us. What values do you feel are important for the future of Malaysia and the world in that respect I mean, how do we get to that point I mean how do we get to that point of joy or how do we get to that point of just being able to be with one another without anger. Right. So, the anger is at a mind level, we've got to stop being at the mind level and move to the heart level, and we will, once we get tired of the anxiety get tired of the emotional roller coaster we're going to find somewhere where we can be peaceful. And just having unified activities that brings about a sense of well being will take us to that place. Like you said, like the intrapacific bar we come together for what is common laughter is common food is common joy is common. And when you bring that together in that environment, you are united and in unity break down barriers and realize that joy and laughter in unity is more powerful than fear and decisive divisiveness. And when we realize that they move forward. Actually, that's nothing wrong with individuals. It's the politicians that play it out for us. So, if we could gather more as individuals to form clusters of unified activities enjoy, you'll be able to move forward. And so it sounds like you have some hope for the future. And right is, you have some hope. You see, the equanimity taught me that we were at the rock bottom of helplessness and hopelessness and things just change. I didn't know that 52% people felt the way I felt. And just knowing that you want a particular thing you have a vision for integrity and virtue and and righteousness and not righteousness and the prim and proper but for the right action transparency and accountability and just holding that and vibrating we have to vibrate at a high frequency. We are more influential when we do that. And so if we can get back to that hope hold that vision believe that we are causing a creating a ripple effect, it will take shape and form. Well, we have a minute left. I'd like to ask you what advice would you give young lawyers who are just beginning their professional careers about how to live in this post COVID new normal world. I think the most important to be happy to find a true place inside you that's happy so keep fit, keep mentally happy, you know, yourself happy, and when you're vibrating with happiness, you will get all the answers you need from the wisdom. It's like, you know, your internet cloud out there. There is a wisdom cloud out there that you don't download to address every quick every problem that you have to to challenge to to get answers to every challenge that you have. You know, in high vibration of happiness. That would be what I say, and I've got a second book that's coming out that will give you a, actually, the roadmap to that eventually at the end of the end of the year mark. I'm sorry, what, what is that one? It's called resolved how to be a fiery lawyer without violating your integrity and personality. And that's watch the space for end of the year. I'm sorry. That's really catered for young lawyers and anyone wanting to do it differently. Okay. Well, so thank you for telling us about your life as an advocate, not just in law, but in life. And we look forward to your books. So, aloha, as we say in Hawaii, thank you very much for being my guest today. And I hope that we'll see each other in person sometime in the future. It's been such a pleasure and honor. Thank you for having me, Mark, and we will meet soon. All right. Aloha.