 Good evening and welcome to Russia, the research seminar in Islamic art. Thank you for coming tonight and I'm very happy to have Domenico Ingenito with us, who is going to talk to us. He's in Los Angeles and Los Angeles is a bit cold, he says, but not as cold as London. You can see the way I'm dressed. Anyway, so let me just introduce Domenico. I'm so happy you're here. Domenico is an associate professor of Persian literature at the University of California, Los Angeles, and incoming Bahari fellow in the Persian arts of the book at the Bodleian Library in Oxford. So very interesting for us to have you here from spring 2023. His research interests center on medieval Persian poetry, visual culture of Iran and Central Asia, gender and translation studies and manuscript culture. His most recent articles are Hafiz Shirazi Turk, a geopolitical approach in Iranian studies, and the marvelous painting The Erotic Dimension of Sadi's Praise Poetry in the Journal of Persian Studies. And his most recent book, also quite hefty book, is Beholding Beauty, Sadi of Shiraz and the Aesthetics of Desire and Medieval Persian Poetry, published by Brill in 2020. This Italian translation of Foro Farah Azad's Collected Poems, along with all original texts, will be published in 2023 by Bompiani. He's currently working on an English translation of Selection Sadi's Poems for University of California Press, and a monograph on kingship, poetic creativity and homoeroticism in the context of Ghaznavi praise poetry. Can I remind the audience to write your comments and questions in the chat and I will read them to Domenico after his presentation, which today is on a rather intriguing topic called The Visible and the Unseen, reframing the Persian tale of the Greek and Chinese painters. Domenico, thank you again and over to you. Hi Anna. Hi. Thank you so much, Professor Contadini. I'm very honored. I'm very pleased to be here with you and with your wonderful, wonderful audience of this series of this workshop series that is a wonderfully beautifully organized and run. Today we'll be talking about a topic that is part of the new horizons on my research interests. So I apologize if you will find my arguments to be rather unpolished. I think this presentation is even less polished, and I also need to clarify that what I'm bringing together the materials that have been collected makes sense only thanks to the work of wonderful scholars who preceded me and who worked on on this specific topic of this narration on the competition between Chinese and Greek artists, scholars such as Priscilla Sujek, Christine Marumke, and Margaret Graves who published very recently a beautiful, beautiful article on the afterlives of the visual afterlives of this story. I very much indebted to them, and I wish to, with my very modest contribution today, I wish to start bridging the gap between the history of Persian literature and the way we look at the importance, the relevance of sight or beholding of scene as it is represented in the Persian literary classics and all the speculations and analysis that have been produced over the decades from the perspective of our history. So I really wish that through this kind of conversations and opportunities, this workshop in particular will be able to sort of meet with other scholars who work on the same texts and the same problems from slightly different angles. I prepare the PowerPoint and I'm going to launch it now with your permission. May I? Here it is, I'm sharing my screen first. Sure, we are looking forward to it. Here it is, here it is, I can launch it now. So, as you mentioned, the title of this talk is the Visible Indian Scene, with training the Persian tale of the Greek and Persian paintings. I will start with two lines, two baits, two districts by my poet, my favorite poet, Sadio Shiraz. I dedicated an entire monograph to his living poetry, but here we can see how the problem of vision, the connection between the Visible and the Indisible, urges us to ask specific questions. So we see, I read the English translation, sit with the beloved for some time, forgetful of this world and the next, you will see wondrous images more alluring the Chinese and Greek paintings. This is an interesting reference to the story that I'm about to share with all of you. For this meaning, Manny, a form, for this meaning a form is required that only Sadie can beautifully craft anything that surfaces from the soul finds its reflection on the surface of the heart. Many irons in the fire here you can see so we have reference to this mysterious form of Chinese and Greek paintings. The idea that it's Chinese and Greek paintings this picture gallery can appear in one's imagination before one's eyes when sitting next to an object of desire, possibly a real object of desire. You can see how this quest for beauty is conveyed to the quest for a meaning that needs to find, needs to lend onto a form, a sohan, a speech that poets can craft in a beautiful way. And by doing so, create a parallel between what appears through the soul and what emerges on the heart of the beloved and the beholder. So I will return to these lines at the end of my presentation to bring all these different threads together and see why we are here talking about Chinese and Greek paintings. Some of you might be familiar with Sadio Shiraz. He died in 1292 in Shiraz. He started in Baghdad in the famous Nizamiya school. His major works are the Sadi Nami or Bustan, Gulistan, completed between the 1250s and 1258 CE, of course, and then collection of gazelles. I work mostly on these collections and lyric poems. I'm working also on his obscene works. Thankfully, I will not share any obscene lines today. And then he was active also among the most important political figures of his time, specifically in Fars, the Atabeghane Fars, the Atabeghata Fars, the Salkori dynasty. We know that he was, we don't know whether he was attached to a Sufi order, but he did have a Sufi lodge that was built on his behalf by the Giovanni family, who were the chief financial officers of the Ilhanid state, the early period of Mongol presence in Iran. I will start with a passage that can set the tone for this whole conversation today on the visionary experience. What is a visionary experience? What does it mean to behold beauty beyond the boundaries of what is visible to the external senses? And I'm very interested in analyzing this kind of experiences from a rational point of view, while recognizing the spiritual importance of all speculations that derive from the Sufi tradition. Sadiq in the opening of his Golestan of Rose Garden, which is a collection of beautiful anecdotes, some of which are biographical, some of which are pseudo biographical, on different aspects of life in medieval Iran. And he was crafted as a mirror for princes, so in order to instruct princes on how to become, if not perfect human beings, to become perfectly human. And in the opening pages of this book, Sadiq talks about this visual experience of the master of the heart, Issa Heddel. The master of the heart, Sadiq says, entered into a state of visionary rapture, till drowning in the ocean of unveiling. So this is a metaphysical experience, the Sufi practitioners who experiences a connection with invisible. As soon as you emerge from this imaginal transaction, Muamila, one of his associates, asking with joyful enthusiasm, what presence are you bringing for us from the garden of fragrances that you visited? The master of the heart, the Sufi replied, I was resolved to fill my robe with gifts for my companions once I reached the rose bush. But as soon as I approached it and started picking the roses, the fragrance of those roses intoxicated me so deeply that I lost control and dropped all of them. So here Sadiq is playfully sharing with us the experience of contemplating the invisible, the metaphysical realm, through images that are particularly sensory. And you see how the senses are called into this exploration of the invisible. And it is on the basis of this connection between the visible and invisible and the relevance of the senses and sensory experiences that I want to explore a story that was mentioned in the opening today that has been explored by many, many scholars, particularly by art historians, and specials of Persian literature are starting only now to reread and rediscover this wondrous, wondrous narration that is found in the Khamsa or the Quintet of master of medieval Persian poetry, narrative poetry, Nizami of Ganja, in the 12th century, and composed this five mass navities of five narrations, long narrations in verse, one of which is referred to as the Sharath Name, or Eskandar Name, which is the narration of the guest, all the adventures of Alexander the Great. And in particular, I want to focus on the story of the competition between Greek and Chinese painters. How does the story begins? Alexander happens to visit China, is being hosted by the Emperor of China, and they indulge with invasions and a much less, a proper gathering. And in the tradition of the Hellenistic and Persian Majalis of gatherings, they start having conversations about the beauty of the arts and the excellence of humankind and different groups of people in specific fields of knowledge. So they're talking about who is the most excellent in the art of poetry, so that the most eloquent people are from Arabia, poetry and music originated from Khurasan, whereas musical instruments come from Baghdad and so on. At some point the question that lands on the floor of this charming conversation is, who is the absolute master in the art of painting? And of course, the Chinese and the Greek are the peoples who are referred to, and being Alexander of Greek origin and being his host, the Chinese Emperor, you can see how heated this conversation became. So they decided to settle their dispute through an actual, a pragmatical competition, a real competition. So eventually I'm here, these are my poorly translated lines, I apologize, again this is a work in progress. But according to this session, it will be available, but please, if you, we have a conversation about this topic within a few months or years when hopefully this work will be published and probably I might present completely different solutions to this, to these questions. So eventually they decided to sort of dispute by building a vault that curves like an eyebrow. The painters hung the curtain between the two curves of the vault. The six were supposed to work on one side, the Chinese would paint the other side of the vault. So they separated the two groups, they would see each other's work only when the competition was over. As soon as they finished, the drape would be removed from the middle. And only then would everyone see which one of the two paintings appeared most wondrous. And the two paintings here are wondrous. No, I didn't know I didn't have now I didn't have will be come back will be coming back to this kind of a category that refers to awe inspiring arts, including poetry, and of course, visual arts. So we have this competition, there is a veil between these two arches. These two particles that have been painted by these two groups. So painters started working the secret chambers of this of those two balls. And the host is this constant reference to something that's hidden beyond one side beyond one gaze with art. The artwork is being produced. After a little while they were done. The curtain was removed from the two paintings. And there was one painting for for two are times our time was young is this mythical, maybe not so mythical album of paintings by money, the founder of money case, Iranian, and to which personal poets refer constantly the shapes and colors were exactly the same. All on Lucas were amazed by that effect and were suddenly absorbed by speculations. The two paintings were exactly the same thing, even though the two groups of painters the Chinese and the Greek artists could not communicate with each other. The final result of their work was exactly the same. We go back to this language that keywords that's why I want to offer this close reading but it's important. This is something that person literature and story should be and also working collaboration with art historian to create a fashion, our critical understanding of this story so agile. Mon so they were not a job. They were bewildered. They were amazed they were ravaged by this. And they were cast into speculations. Ibra. It's an interesting word for Ibra, we come back to this right which means to cross a boundary to make any to a to to to to to to to to to to something to bring in to have some sort of a intuition about something. Wonder how these two groups of painters would have produced two times that equally charter so they were all amazed by this Alexander set between two arcs and observe both paintings carefully. I want to stress the, the narrative care and attention to details that necessary they be case to this narration, showing how the eye of the beholders. And specifically at work trying to analyze and comparing with these these these images with one another. So there was observing carefully, you could not spot any difference between them you see how slow the pace of the narration is and how the importance of this this observation of the world is being showcased in this in this in these lines, he could not penetrate the veil of their most important keyword as well. And this is a very raw session, per day it was the veil of mystery, we'll see how this expression comes back in other, in other stories. So understanding the mystery of this reflection of this to so the similarity, the, between these two paintings is represented as a veil of mystery that needs to be deciphered by john Lucas. The veil his gaze tried to unveil the mystery, again, but he could not figure out the secret of those images. That's something happens. I'm going to look at some point that at some point next year in Oxford, I will be looking at manuscripts from this book as well because I want to understand what really happens in this specific moment where a certain far zone is mentioned. And then a wise man. Is this Alexander is this someone else is it a wise man a scientist who was present who would travel with Alexander was a philosopher was witnessing the scene. There's confusion in the master tradition about about the meaning of this line and there are some billions that deserve to be taken to account. For now let's say that it's a third party. When a wise man saw those two idol temples he was ravished by that astonishing picture buddy. It's another key words. He was grabbed by the Shaget will see found will see this later. But as it was wrapped by the astonishing picture, he asked for the curtain hanging between the two balls to be removed. Let's start the playing with the court and see what happens if we remove again, the, the, the curtain with the curtain separated two chambers was lifted one ball. See them. The other was shining. They lost the last three degree colors and forms shown up on the mirror of the Chinese. The king was struck by one moment she get the another keyword referring to awe inspiring art. He saw that the Chinese vault had no pictures. In small he lifted the curtain the original image appeared again on the Chinese wall. So when we discovered that the Chinese did not do anything, but polishing the wall. The artists were actually the great who physically painted the materially created this image on their own sections of the ball from the arch and then the only thing that the Chinese did was to polish. I'm just showing how meaningful the slow pace of the narration is to see how important specific keywords are the way that they allow the eyes of the listeners and the readers to imagine what how the eyes, eyes were wondering in this in this narration. So he understood that that bright bald acquired images thanks to polishing. We reached the end of the story. Yes, there was a difference between the two images. Indeed, one would acquire the other would project two other important keywords in me pass it off to on me. As you don't stand to acquire in them project shine upon. While the Greeks were actively painting the Chinese were polishing their side of the wall. All paintings that took shape on the Greek ball shown on the receiving surface of the Chinese side. This is why the final ruling Alexander had to decide a venture who is the ultimate master in the art of painting. They both won. This is why the final ruling was the following. Both actions are necessary for the purpose of vision. This sounds like a very nice and polite way of assessing right and resolving this dispute about it. I want to meditate on this this idea that both actions, polishing and painting, acquiring and projecting as we can see here also these two keywords are necessary. We already for the purpose of vision. That's that also mean the eye or vision is both the organ and and active of seeing what does it mean. What does it mean what is me trying to say. And here I am quoting. I apologize for this is not very elegant for my own book, the eighth chapter dedicated to aspects of the story in a broader context of the quest for the invisible in its erotic context. This final gloss is particularly interesting. Polishing and painting are equally necessary for the purpose of vision massage. While Priscilla subject has analyzed the story from the perspective of means and means assimilation of the theories of perception into the literally representations of visual arts. She has convincing demonstrated what the philosophical underpinnings of his anecdote are as a further elaboration on the perspective of these two scholars. I would be inclined to witness a misremark on polishing and painting as a glass on the different roles of the internal senses in managing the relationship between optical vision and the imaginative package. In fact, the end of the narration, the author refers to the Greek painting as a projecting mean and mood image, whereas the qualifies the Chinese counterpart as the receiving me positive depiction. So let's take a look at the theory of the internal senses so we know that this is a paradigm that was developed well before Ebenezina Wabi Senna the Persian philosopher and Paulie Matt. He was born in the early 11th centuries and he he systematized what was already available, showing how the brain is can be divided in different ventricles in different parts that in which the different functions of different faculties, known as the internal senses are lodged, we have a common sense that collects and coordinates the sensations received by the five external senses then we have a retentive imagination Hyal, which stores all the images that are collected by individuals through sensorial intellectual experience via the common sense of the practical intellect. So this is the retentive the storage room of whatever the senses can proceed. And then we have the composite imagination. It is the faculty that allows the formation of dreams and visions which shapes images that will not correspond to objects that exist in the world of external senses. So, for example, with my students and we're talking about the internal senses is imagine that I have two wings, appearing from behind my shoulders or to stay in Iran, epics, see two snakes appearing from my from my from my shoulder blades. I mean, if you imagine that you're using your composite imagination you're combining images that were stored in your retentive imagination, and creating something completely new, right, if you close your eyes. Then we have the estimatives one, they've received the non sensible pre intellectualized concepts ideas and meanings that relate to specific objects of visual perception and we have semantic memory, which is storage room of one or the estimate. And he was familiar with this tradition. And given Nizami is familiarity with the mystic philosophy and the Abyssinian model of the internal senses we could look at the projecting and receiving images as analogues with the faculty of the composite imagination. We have the common sense as a screen upon which images are impressed, respectively. Therefore, the story could be read to be reread as Nizami's meditation on the role of the internal senses in the processes of the collection and empirical observation of reality. We can explain why there's this constant narrative emphasis on witnessing how the eyes can witness and what happens right so we can see how these two, we can look, we can think about these two chambers in two balls as as an enactment, how the internal senses communicate with external senses and vision is produced in in one's mind. This analogy helps us we consider specific aspects of Al-Ghazali spiritual approach to the same narration we know that this story was narrated by Al-Ghazali, one of the most important Islamic thinkers who died in 1111 from Eastern Iran, and I've been working mainly on the Persian treatise Kimyaasadat, the alchemy of bliss, and he has this beautiful chapter in his most famous compendium of religious sciences known Ihiya Ulu Madin, Revival of Religious Sciences, in the chapter called The Marbles of the Heart, in which he tells the stories of Al-Ghazali was flourishing a few decades before Nizami, and they were both drawing upon a similar, probably similar version of the stories, but they turned their narration to, they took their narration toward different horizons on being let's read what Al-Ghazali says about this story, so they lifted the veil and behold, on their side are shown forth the wonders of the Greek skill with added illumination, dazzling brilliance, since that side had become like a polished mirror by reason of much illumination, thus the beauty of their side was increased by its added clearness. The care of the saints, and this is the way that Al-Ghazali interprets this story, in cleansing, purifying, clarifying the heart until the true nature of the unseen, the invisible shines clearly therein, with utmost illumination, is the work of the Chinese. The care of the learned and the philosophers in acquiring the adorning knowledge and the representation of this adorment in the hearts is like the works of the Greek, so it's comparing Sufis and saints, spiritual masters with philosophers and scientists, and seeing how both groups of people can reach the truth through different ways of working on their internal and external senses in connection with the sacred knowledge and the invisible. This analogy helps us to consider specific aspects of Al-Ghazali's spiritual approach to the same narration, which he tackles in the context of a discussion of the preserved tablet, Louh Mahfouz, that is included in the 21st book of the Ihya, in his version Al-Ghazali compares the Greek artists to the philosophers and the men of wisdom who obtain spiritual knowledge through study and discursive inquiry. The Chinese painters on the other hand stand for the Sufis and the saints who access the supernal preserved tablet by polishing the surface of their hearts to receive the reflection of the unseen. From Al-Ghazali's wording, one can detect the paramount relevance of the visual dimension in the effects of these two approaches. On the one hand, we found the wondrous colors of the Greeks, whereas the Chinese achieve the same result without applying any color. By doing so, Al-Ghazali presents the speculative and the contemplative parts as approaches that are equally valid, just as the final result of the Greek and the Chinese painters are equally beautiful. Interestingly, Al-Ghazali mentions that the reflecting process has bestowed great clarity upon the Chinese image. This is something that also appears in Mizami's story, but is not as evident as in this specific passage by Al-Ghazali. This concise observation has induced some scholars to assume that the Iranian theology narrated this parable to defend the supremacy of the contemplative over the speculative, of the Sufi way over the implicitly path of the philosophers. However, as noticed by Ibn Khaldun in his commentary on the passage, Al-Ghazali's symbolic juxtaposition functions as an analog of the two facets of the heart, rational soul, one of which opens to the external world, whereas the other produces the celestial matrix of creation, the preserved tablet. We should therefore explain the less clear image rendered by the Greek painters by the veiling effect of the curtain of the body, whose material nature tends to obscure the clarity of the images descending from on high. So here Al-Ghazali opens whole and whole new window on the problem of vision beyond the boundaries of the visible world. Something that is contained also in Mizami, but from a completely different perspective that dwells more length on the perspective of the philosophers, on the physiological philosophical possibility of seeing and representing how vision takes place. What is the problem of polishing the mirror on the heart? The idea is that the human heart in the Sufi tradition to which Al-Ghazali belongs and which he crystallizes, the human heart acts like a mirror that is naturally capable of reflecting the unseen, the invisible world referred to as the preserved tablet, or the matrix of the book, or Umm al-Kitab by the Quran, or in a Visenian cosmological firms, the soul of fixed stars or the active intellect. So there is the idea that the microcosmic matrix of the world is reflected on to do microcosmic presence of the heart, which is like a mirror that can see, can reflect what is next to God, this metaphysical matrix of the world. The body, however, along with its carnal passions and external perceptions, avails the heart and prevents it from visualizing the supernal realm of the unseen. And Sadiq, for instance, says the heart is the mirror that reflects the form of the unseen, provided the mirror rust covers its surface. So we can have different ways of visualizing the invisible through a closed approach to the perception, the sensory perception of the world, of the visible world. So if we follow Al-Ghazali's narrative, we can have an irrational inferential approach, which keywords like Ibra, Tafakur and Tamul, which are found also in Isami's narration, pedagogical contemplation, sacred eroticism to observe beauty and infer, produce an inference and intuition about the origin of this beauty. And then there is an imaginal cosmological approach, dreams, spiritual training and Sama or listening to music. We can see how there's all ways of thinking about the invisible by operating, by modifying the connection between our body and the world that surrounds us. So in fact, we will find here a beautiful passage by Al-Ghazali in Persian from his book Al-Khimi of Bliss, Al-Khimi of Sadaq, that parallels what Sadiq was telling us in the opening of the Gholistan about the visionary experience. And here we can find all the physiological and philosophical elements drawing upon Abyssinian theories of perception, internal sense, which we're also reverting throughout in Isami's work. We can finally see how we can finally create a chamber of resonance between these different sources. Al-Ghazali says, those who turn invisible to themselves and to their own sensations, and as it is customary in the beginning of the path of Sufism, they'll be to their own selves and plunge into the remembrance of God, will have a taste of the other worlds realities through the process of witnessing Mushahada. This is because the carnal soul, by going dormant and weakening, does not prevent them from accessing the truth of their essence. Therefore, their condition would be akin to death of the dead. Anything that to the others is unveiled to death would become accessible to them in this world. In most cases, whenever they come back to themselves and to the sensible world, like the Sahib del, the master of the heart that Sadiq was describing, they might have no recollection of that experience. And if they recall something, they might talk about it. And if the storage of their imagination is a technical word to refer to the Abyssinian, the authentic imagination, Khazanei Chayal, that picks the recollections, it would appear as an image for images can be best stored in the memory so that they may be retreated. So we can see how here Al-Ghazali is trying to combine philosophical speculations of the internal senses and the act of vision with the Sufi path leading to the contemplation of the invisible. Why am I projecting these passages to shed further light on Mezami's story of the Greek and the Chinese painters. Let's keep these two different strands of materials next to each other, and let's go a bit deeper in other passages from Mezami's works in which there is a strong emphasis on the act of painting and contemplating beauty. So we have this other poem by Mezami Ganjavi, Hafpekar, of the Seven Beauties or the Seven Celestial Bodies, which is the representation, is the story of, is the kind of age story of the Islamic Iranian Shah King, Bahram, Bahram Ghur, and how he discovers one day in his palace that there are seven beauties, seven princesses from the seven climates of the world who have been invited to his court and tell him a story every single, every different days of the week in association with a different celestial body. The poet says, in the fashion of the mages and of Esther, this book is adorned with seven brides, so that the brides of the celestial spheres may be hold for once my brides and assist each other one by one through cooperation and co-decoration, the macrocosmic and the microcosmic reflecting each other in the production of poetry, in the production of a poetry that is about vision and visual contemplation. So we can see how the creative act of the poet seeks assistance through the possibility of finding connection between the visible and the invisible, between the macrocosmic and the microcosmic. Later in the book, he talks about the story of Turan Dort, this beautiful princess from Turan, who was an accomplished scientist and painter, and let's look at how he describes her accomplishments. Besides beauty and a sweet smile, she was adorned with the gift of science. Having learned wisdom from all disciplines, she wrote pages on every art and read about the occult sciences and witchcraft from all the world's books on magic. She knew the temperaments of all celestial bodies and compared the elements with one another. She knew what makes all humans human and what the stars unlock human kind. An angelic woman who lived in a castle was also a painter of the Chinese picture gallery. Whenever she touched a painting with her brush, cars would solidify like pearls inside a shell. With her brush, as dark as the virgins of paradise stresses, she painted with light upon the shadows. Here there is this esoterical approach to painting for the arts, which is not completely detached from the philosophical and learned processes that work in the Iskandar Namene, the story of the Greek and Chinese painter, but we can see how Yurnizami is sort of creating a new layer of meaning for the mystery of visual representations, specifically in the context of this magician, artist, scientist who know the secrets of the world. And this I'm very, I'm very fascinated by this line. So Yero Nach Barzadi as Lu, she could paint with light upon the shadows. Let's keep following this thread. I don't have specific answers for what this really means in the context, in the overall context of Mizami's work. But I want to compare these passages with another set of stories, another story, and then I will be done. Sorry, I'm taking too long today. This is also narration, some of you might be familiar with already from another book, Kostro Shirin, Yurnizami, in which in the very somewhat one of the first chapters with these young Prince of Iran, Kostro, Kostro Parviz, is seeking a lover, a beloved, and his born companion, named Shapur, who is a painter and artist as well, finds a solution, and he knows of a beautiful princess named Shirin, who lives in Armenia, and he advises a strategy to allow them to meet and fall in love with each other. Shirin had a special boom companion named Shapur, who traveled the world from Morocco to Lahore. His painting skills could have inspired money, he could teach Euclid the art of geometry. He was an expert calligrapher and a talented portrait painter. Brushless paintings would emerge from his imagination, isn't it very important. Priscilla Sujak has a few thoughts about this image, I would like to take them a bit further. The idea that he could paint without a brush, only through the act of imagination. This is also important, let's try to compare this in our mind with what was happening in the story of the Chinese and the Greek painters. What is the role of imagination? How did imagination digs into the relationship between the visible and invisible? Through the relationship between what is represented and the source of representation. So it's not just about the mimetic correspondence between what is visible and what can be represented, but it's about the work of imagination in creating parallels between these two different realms. What is Shapur's strategy? He decides to cause Shirin to fall in love with the hostel by painting his portrait, his image, and hanging it there on a tree in the place where Shirin and her companions or friends were playing. She sees the portrait before the first time. They brought that portrait to Shirin. She contemplated the image for several hours. Again, we have again the idea of pondering, meditative, contemplating slowly. The process of the mind approaching the visual through with a slow pace. She could not take her eyes off of it, nor could she decide to take it with her. Every glance upon it made her drunker beside herself with any new sip from that cup. Her companions torn apart the very fine portrait which would cause Chinese paintings to pale. The comparisons with what the Chinese were doing is also this intertextual, intertextual actually corresponds also particularly fascinating. When Shirin asked about the portrait, they told her that demons must have lived such a simulacrum. And here this important key word, key sal, ten sal, they tore that apart. Shapur decides to repaint the same painting and try again. While Shirin sees that again for the second time, where Shirin lifted her eyes one more time, she looked again at the special simulacrum. Her soul's birth took off from her chest. Her tongue was locked. She could not utter a word. She asked her friends crying, what is this situation? She was wrong for that was imaginations. It's a very interesting line too. She was asking what's happening, what's a halas? It's a very colloquial way of saying what's happening to me, why is this painting here again? And then the poet interjects the narration and he says she was wrong. It was not a hal, hal meaning also state, presence, affair, conditions. And he said that was the work of imagination, creating a pun between halas and halas. Also very interesting correspondence between the possibility of images to come to reach a form and imagination that can model those forms. Shirin sees the portrait for the third time. It's a longer excerpt that is not translated at the right time. And eventually they decide to address Shapur reveals himself. Shapur responded there is so much to say about this image, which for me originates from behind the veil of mystery. Have we found this expression already? Yes. The behind the veil of mystery, Pardeghe Ross, is exactly the same expression that Alexander was using when trying to crack the mystery of the Chinese and Greek paintings corresponding to each other. It's interesting that there is the idea that the art of Shapur also is coming out from behind the veil. And Shirin responded, I fell in love with this image so deeply, day and night, that you'd say I became a worshipper of idols. Eventually, Shapur says I am the painter whose compass lends the image of Prince Hosra, although every portrait that the painter paints shows a sign, nishon, it has no soul, john. In different ways of reading the connection between john and nishon, I read this as the Persian ways of referring to the dichotomy between images and mental contents, Suwar and Maani, that comes up constantly in the Sufi speculations on the context, on the relations between the visible and invisible. I will stop how to paint, but the garments of the soul are crafted elsewhere. What does it mean? Meaning that I'm painting a sign that is like an impression, but the origin of this sign, the real money somewhere else which corresponds to the physical presence of the art of Shapur. This is also interesting. Again, I'm really curious to see how art historian would read these lines because they tell us something beyond the mere discourse on mimetic correspondence between the work of art and external reality. The idea that the work of art is leading the eye toward the origin, toward the money that needs to be discovered behind the veil, which could respond to nothing but more experience or actual experience of the world. If you are so ravished by Hosra's portrait, wait and see what happens when you see him in person. If you see a world created from light, despite having no experience of the world, light will shine in your eyes. I'll stop here for now, even though I have a gazelle by Saadi, we can read this together during the Q&A or I can just leave it here on the screen. It's gone. Sorry? She's gone. Okay, so there is this, I don't have conclusions. My conclusion here is, what can we do with these materials when they are rotating around each other and they're telling us something more about any simplistic literary understanding of our, of the way that we read the story of the Chinese and the Greek painters. What I want, the link I want to create here is the connection between the work of the artist as a painter and the work of the poet. In the rest of the narration, Shapur starts, he says you should, if you love this image so much, you should see the real thing. If you love this image, if you like form so much, you should discover the Ma'ani, the mental contents, meaning the physical presence of Prince Khosrow. And he starts describing him. And the description of the beauty of this young prince. It's so fascinating because it recreates through language what images were already doing, creating, adding a new layer to the connection between the visible and invisible, between the forms, visual forms and the, an external reality. This makes me think of the line which we started today by Sadiq, in which he says, sit with a beloved for some time, forgetful of his world and next you will see wondrous images, more alluring than Chinese and Greek paintings. For this meaning, for this Ma'ani, a form is required that only Sadiq can beautifully craft. You can see how the poet, in this case Sadiq, but it's something that Nezami was already trying to do. The poet shows the possibility, the chance that language has to mimic what visual arts can do and create a form for the money that are sought after by the reader and the beholder. The surface is from the soul finds its reflection on the surface of the heart. And, you know, we have another gazelle, the gazelle with which I want to conclude the session, which Sadiq says, do not describe for me your Greek or Chinese beauties. My heart is bound to one thing from our land. When he resurfaces to my memory, and only then I lose a recollection of the existing and nonexistent. It is sweet, but the palm tree stands out of reach. The purest water flows right here, and yet we're thirsty. That sacred boy, Shahid, appears in our imagination. I know no pious man in town, refrain from desire. No object of gazes resembles his face, no fragrant bodies compared to his scent. Neither with him, nor without, do I seek a joyful life. A pearl like him cannot be interlaced in my same thread. Just shut down your eyes and look beyond. The mystery, again, the mystery we share with him is most concealed. Should everyone in the world see these forms of his, no one would grasp the holy meaning mani behind his face. All of this to say that we could make use of mezami to reread Sadiq from a perspective of philosophical speculations on the role of imagination and vision. Individual arts, and we could read the mezami also from the perspective of a super tradition, even though mezami was not a sufi. Even though it does not really use sufi language, technical language, work, but we could read his meditations on painting and visual representations through this quest, this alternation between forms and mental elements that appear in the sufi tradition, elevated to the status of poetic art by Sadiq and the likes of him. Thank you so much for your patience. I really lingered for too long. I'm done now. Thank you so much, Domenico. That was a really interesting talk and insights into this complex world of vision, imagination, and artistic experience. And audience, write your questions or points in the chat. So we have one. Harry, Domenico, have you read Michael Barry's book, Figurative Art in Medieval Islam? He answers most of your questions. In Rumi the Chinese Painters. I have, I have, but I did not get the answers I was hoping to find, not yet, but I should probably reread it. And the second point is in Rumi the Chinese Paint and the Greek Polish, what do you make of this reversal? It's interesting. I think that in Rumi's case, the Greek Polish, probably because Rumi was located in Anatolia. He was looking in Rumi. There is probably a connection with ascetic practices that he could witness the reference. I think that there's something that relates to the idea of spirituality belonging to Anatolia and the spaces in which Rumi was living. And hence the inversion of the roles. And the Chinese is just, they're just represented as literally topos, as excellent painters. So I think that that's that. I want to talk about Rumi as well today, but we really have time. It's also very fascinating. It really takes the whole story to a completely different direction than I, the importance of external reality almost. Kave Hemmat, I'm curious about your thoughts on the money story that follows or is interpolated at the end of the painting contest story and how that might shape our reading of the painting contest inside a giant skull as it were. I'm still thinking about it. It's something that, you know, the image of the dog that is dying, that is the rotting dog that is on the surface of the lake. I'm still trying to understand also how the artang or yang is mentioned in the story. There must be an intertextual connection, but I'm still trying to read how the two narrations really relate to each other, but it's an important, it's an important transition that needs to be taken into account. And Karoli Mauer, thanks for this exciting talk. Which modern visual artists poets have circulated these images further or nobody? I, as far as the late medieval periods in early modern who are concerned, I will refer to Margaret Graves recent chapter. And I don't really know much about modern, late modern contemporary. So Karoli says Michael Barry. Harry Matisse, for instance, yes, yes, this is fascinating too. Yeah. But I don't really know much about the modern, specifically modern reverberations of this story. Sure. Oh, Simon O'Meara. Many thanks for your lecture for taking us to this marvelous poetic realms. My question is quite prosaic. Might acquiring and projecting be related to theories of vision, intermissions versus extramission as to theories of the workings of the imagination. Yes. I only see in trimester, the term is a theory in this line of thought in the Abyssinian line, I don't really see extramission has been particularly resourceful as a model. It's the idea that it's explained in very prosaic terms by both Abyssinia and Alcazar himself about the way that light penetrates the eye and then from the eye, this stimulation of the sensations are covered into perception. Thanks to the, thanks to the intervention of the, of the common sense and then, and which is also in a way. The theory is reflected also in how the heart can receive intramissively light from the preserved tablet or from the soul of the on the matrix of creation the soul of the stars. So it's it's it's it's always this metaphor of the light of illumination is it's a model that recurs constantly. And, but I will look into that in my book I, I refer to the Abyssinian theory of optical perception, quite often, exploring how poets also were influenced by it. Valerie Gonzalez, could it be that we are actually dealing with a Janus Allegory of the painter so that the Chinese and the Greek are one and the same incarnation of the artist, metaphorizing the duality of form and content. It's impossible. I think that this is one of the directions that Margaret Graves was taking in our chapter. But I would, I would, I would agree with you Valerie. Thank you for this observation. It's possible so that they are simultaneously the two represent the two facets of the painter, but also represent the two facets of the act of vision. So read the far as I mean, I forgot to mention that the far as any of the wise men who cracks this mystery, if it's not Alexander himself, and it is not a natural wise man himself could be seen as the, as the rational intellect, mediating between the visible invisible and the external and the internal, creating the connection between comparing the two things the act of comparing between the two could be seen as as a metaphor for the, for the rational soul for the intellect of the human being as well. And that would also connect to what you say Valerie because because it, it also through that the two aspects to facets of the rational soul, the theoretical and the practical intellect that the work or art can be produced right so combining what is already the knowledge is already part of what we experience and the act of creating art itself. Could it be that. No sorry, thank you for this fascinating talk. If you have time, can you talk a little bit more about how the story appears in Ruby and your take on it. We see, both in Al-Ghazali and in an is a me. There is a balance between the roles of the Chinese and the Greek painters. There's a balance in both sides, the contemplative and the speculative the analytical and more spiritual in the case of Al-Ghazali. There are two different paths. Rumi focuses only on the path of colorlessness. He says that the best color is colorlessness. He denies the value of mundane experience in the quest for the divine presence in the quest for the invisible, which is something that occupies the center stage in, in, in, for sure. This is a me, but also in Al-Ghazali and in, in, in poets such as such as Rumi and such as Saadi, for instance, or one with Tabrizzi and later on Hafez. So it's interesting to see, to see how these different authors were thinking different ways about the role of the body, to what extent the body can be acquire more of a Aristotelian positive role in exploring the world and putting that exploration in the service of the high respirations of the soul, whereas for Rumi, this something comes up very often in his works. The body needs to be put aside almost completely in order for the soul to shine and connect with the divine directly. Thank you. Nicolette Tavazio. Thank you, Domenico, for such beautiful lecture. I have a quick comment about the brushless painting ability, so to say, displayed by Shapur. I wonder if here it could also be a reference to the actual painting technique, polishing, burnishing the painted surface by painters to obtain a smooth, strokeless effect. Thank you. I can't wait to learn. I hope, I hope this is yes. The response is yes, I hope so. But I don't know, what's what do you think? What is your take on this? I'm not qualified for this. One question I had was one comment I had is whether we can also talk about this disacquire and project that you were talking about, whether we can also talk about optical illusion. In this, you know, I mean, we have, for example, that passage from Alma Carisi of a competition between an Iraqi and Egyptian painter, painters during the Fatimid period. And they were, they decided to paint a dancing girl that would be seen as entering a wall, and the dancing girl that would be seen as coming out of the wall. And, and of course, the two, you know, did a magnificent work, etc., etc. Of course, the passage doesn't tell you how they did it, what technique they used. But I think it's a very important passage. Well, on one hand, because it tells us that Fatimid's had wall paintings, which don't survive very much. On the other hand, is this optical illusion that you can find in Pompeii's frescoes of exactly, you know, flying figures or dancing figures that look like they're going in and others that look like they're coming out. No, yes, what you're saying also makes me think about the anecdotes about money and illusion, and how the illusion is part of the process and creating something that cannot be touched. But again, it's, it's, it's this idea that we read the stories at times, especially when we read the Midsami, through the lens of modern conception of, of, of, of, of the exact response, the medical respondents between the work of art and external world, and the way they're phrased on the surface level seem to match our modern perspective. In principle, but there is something more and the way that the imagination is involved in this process is particularly interesting the way that the act of comparing the political comparing between the work of art and the origin and the quest for the origin, which involves experience and the quest for experience in ways that do not necessarily. This is a part of the discourse on modern perspective and and and pneumatic, pneumatic discourse, it's, there's something there that needs to be re explored and and is a means a master of, of, you know, in, in, in a masterly depicts this this quest for experience that stems from the realization that there is a correspondence between depiction and depicted and and and and that's why I really love this, this, the slow pace of these narrations in which you see how the eye goes back and forth and then there's the thoughts and there is meditation, there's the thinking involved and then back to the external reality and this is actually what happens in the moderate strands of super thoughts, not denying experience but actually using experience as a way to to understand the divine, not beyond the body, not in the body but through the body. Thank you. Irina Bistron. Some modern science behind our vision in blue and gold. And then I think, Irina you attached something but we can't really see that. I'm seeing it as a beautiful image I don't understand what it is though. Okay. So the data says let's talk about it in Oxford, and Karen Pinto thank you for a beautiful enlightening talk much for thought as I contemplate a cartographic visions of the world. Interesting. I also wanted to, it's more of a comment because you were talking about, you know, the paintings and how they sort of reflect the stories and of course you know, I mean, as art historians with battle for the relationship with the text and image, and to even be included into the art historical discourse it took a long time before that happened. But also we look at the agency of paintings as not only commenting on the text, but also as expanding on it by providing wider contextualization that it's not necessarily prompted by the text itself, but also by providing contextual experience which is completely beyond text, and creating a narrative in their own right. And, and that perhaps you know one could look at those paintings also in that way. So, you know, I wonder whether you have any thoughts on that. I've been inspired by what Margaret Graves wrote about this specific story and how new experiences added to the experience of reading through the afterlives of those visual representations. I, this is something I want to look at more in detail from the experience of the circulation manuscripts more than anything else and how, how important is the role of textual variants that are found for instance in the teamwork period, how was the story of Nezami's half-peke for instance of Sharap Name, Alexander Name, Iqbal Name in this case. And how are they changing in their massive tradition to accommodate different experiences of vision that were reflected, you know, through the spirit of the time, and also the visual arts, the way the visual arts were influencing simultaneously the reception of those works. So that's what I'm trying, I'll try to do in Oxford once at Oxford, I will try to sort of go beyond the idea that we need to establish an Ur text for Nezami's works and analyze the history of reception of his works as something that is, as a sort of self-reflective on the way that was modifying the perception that readers had of the text through the visual arts, how the visual arts were guiding the eyes of readers and copyists in creating forging the lines, creating new connections between the proportions of the text and sort of transforming at times radically the original text. So that's something that it's worthwhile exploring because it will probably shed more light also on the complexity or the way that these points were originally composed and circulated. Sure. And the images that might have circulated early on and they are not available for us, unfortunately. I was thinking that, you know, between the text and the painting, the third element is, like you said, the reception is the audience, and we lost you. No, I'm going to be. So, you know, the element of wonder, of a jib that you mentioned results from the combination of the two in the person who is actually reading and looking. So that also to be explored. I wanted to ask you. So you talked about Saudi and was Ali and his army, you talked about the esoteric experience and the symbolic. I wonder whether. What, what source are the Israeli use for the interpretation of this, of these passages of the of the story. We've done, I think our gazales is the issue be the oldest specimen, the oldest narration of the story. I believe that the material where ventilation, possibly related to money. Okay. There might be some in the mystic influences. Margaret Grace also trace back some, some, some, some mystic subtext that might somehow connect with the story but we don't really know. It's, it's, it's, it's fascinating, but he creates a whole connection with his own system, the way that he elevates the heart, the way that he translates the rational soul of the Visenian tradition into the hearts of the believer and how it connects with and how logic can also be applied to this quest for the visible. So he creates that but but the source, the original source of the taxes. No, that is, we have no idea, but there must be a central Asian chorus and connection, especially considering the influence of Buddhist visual arts, and, and in the Eastern chorus on and the way that ideas anecdotes on competition in Greek and Chinese, Turkestani central Asian artists where, where we're circulating wildly probably why widely at the time so it's, it's, it's, it's a fascinating question, but I don't see an answer. And I'm also glad I'm not actually brought up the idea of a job and body these are keywords that glad that my grad students Julie is here. I'm thinking together about something that a lot of hard explored in your book on on body. And I'm also just in London a few years ago in the context of Persian Persian literature and Persian manuals on literature and rhetoric have been working on is is the, the idea that poetry needs to generate wonder, amazement, right, the rhetorical arts are something that is there to create that she gets that she gets tea that body that know now I in that is a mirror personally I like the way that the poet is a matter of meta conversation on the art or writing poetry through the visual arts. So this this this connection is really so present in the perspective of what is the effect of forms one forms are manipulated modulated and how they impact the soul of the onlooker, the soul of the reader, and I really I'm really interested in seeing whether there's a me who himself was considering the influence of of reparations in the way that we describe the effect of poetry on the human soul and how they saw this this connecting point with the visual it's it's it's a I think that would be very interesting point to to explore further yes. Oh, Simon might the distinction between textual images and painted and other images be overplayed in academia. There's some, some interesting work on the idea which I put really summarized that images are what are carried by say the photograph the world, the canvas. I go back to the idea of high all our imagination. That's what that's that that's the link between the two texts, verbal texts and visual texts, ultimately encounter each other in what I'll be saying that describes as as the locus of the production of images. The high also the retentive imagine about more importantly, even more importantly, the composite imagination, where, where in this idealistic representation of how our perceptions work in the medieval context is is takes place in in our brain. We don't see with our eyes. We don't hear with our ears everything happens through the amalgamation of these of the stimuli and the way that they are present to each other through the common sense and then emerge through the through the act of imagination and so from this point of view. I think that there's no real distinction and points like there's a me and study we're trying to show this correspondence in multiple ways, and it's hard for us to straighten this this threads that I because there are circular discourses that cascade upon each other but no I agree with you I think that this is the separation this distinction is is is overplayed. You know what discourses but this is the language that we have. So we need to come to terms with it. Exactly that makes perfect sense. Thank you. I'm not sure it does. Dominic of there are no other questions or points from the audience. I just want to thank you very much for the fascinating talk and also for answering all those very many questions quite difficult ones. And. Yeah, and thank you also for ending the Russia program for this term, and we meet again in January in the new year. So a virtual applause to you and have a good break, you and everybody. And thank you very much again. Thank you. It was an absolute pleasure and honor and yes thank you so much for bringing these ideas with you and this is this is again, I emphasize it is a working process and and I think your your insights are absolutely precious so I really hope that this channel of communication and this conversation will, you know, we'll, I hope you kept alive. Thank you very much. Okay, bye bye.