 Hello everybody, if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always. He's back. He thought he was gone, but no, it's Tom. What's up, buddy? How you doing? Hello friends. It's a kitchen that you're seeing behind me There you go. Tom had to watch an act real quick No, it's it's no so it like I don't know why it didn't push to my AirPods where everything else is pushing to my AirPods right now But when YouTube finally like turned on because our show started sure they actually so you know like it's it's just Warhammer weekly bingo. Oh, there you go folks. Yeah, Tom plays an add-ins of the sound at random random audio Yeah, there you go. Absolutely All right. Well tonight, we're gonna talk about Psychographic profiles something I've wanted to return to for a long time in Warhammer and we're gonna take a deep dive in And we're gonna assign all the new armies we've got a lot of new books out and some of them changed a lot as far as how they feel and what they are and We'll make some predictions on future books and where we think they're gonna wherever they're gonna fall As well since we sit on the precipice of some more books coming out, but to talk about that We've got to talk about the news Tom. What do we got in the news a? Rumor engine. That's right This could be a fantasy thing, but I think it's still a 40k thing Yeah, I agree it's probably like a Kill team weird model thing sure sure, you know like it it would it strikes me as the vibe of Like some kind of chaos kill team guy or you're saying as a work right guy like like Is it 40k? Which one is it? Fine, I'll go with it. I think it's I know I'll go with it I think it's you know what I'm gonna say. What are you gonna say? I'm gonna say it's war cry. Okay And I'm gonna go even one step farther and say that I think that it's OBR war cry Okay, so it's the like the next war cry box is gonna be you know OBR against some castle Interfaction or something. Yep. Okay. All right because the bones look shaped All right, I dig it. I dig it. I like that prediction. Let's go with that. That sounds fun I why not why not? Or it could be a corn thing, but it's like we made we could always get a corn box. Well, we just got corn in bloodhunt and like You know It's probably not the corn hero. So I don't think you've got any more corn models coming Unless it's a corn thing. It could be another. They just got theirs as well So it could be another corn priest could be some corn pops could be a corn dog Could be a good could be some corn syrup. Who knows could be anything corn related. All right, very good my wife was asking me about Factions in this game something. I don't remember how the conversation started In a OS she has to ask me something about dogs And I said well, there is one army that favors dogs and she was that I said it's corn corn favors dogs They have quickly have corn dogs and she thought I was joking with her because because of course like how could that Sounds right right because it sounds too insane to be real, but no It's but does she know that that's what Warhammer is it's too insane like that is that that is the nature of war It's hard for an outsider to look at that and go. Oh, no, that's you you really have a thing That that is corn dogs, right? Well, sure I would say it's not just corn technically sole blight has a thing for dogs, too. I Guess they do have And they have one of their the beer clothes puppies Yeah You know By the way that the symbol behind him is obviously a corn symbol and I don't know how I missed that when I first looked at it And I now agree with you Jack. So you win me over to your position. It's definitely a corn thing But I'm gonna say it's a 40k corn thing. There we go. All right. What's next? We have Kayo is going up for pre-order. Yes, it is. So that was a fast turnaround from Hey, it looks like we may be getting a KO book to here is the book in joy Next week will be the review show because it's it's on pre-order this Saturday, so we'll do the the review show next Saturday or next Wednesday. So I'm excited Ish we'll talk about that next week. Sure. Sure. I'm sure we'll have lots to discuss I mean, look, it would be almost impossible for it not to be better I'll say that just because it's one of the worst books in the current Rotation so like your bar is very low. Oh sure. Like I've been following the leaks on WhatsApp and My initial gut is that it's a complete rework a la night on Okay, like it is a rewriting of what the army is in a re like and so if you have like Expectations like sunk cost fallacy type stuff like all that needs to be re re-assessed because it is simply a new book With different outcomes and so that's what I'll say, but we'll talk about it more next week We will talk about it next week. Absolutely. Also Senior colleague Willie says it's their first time watching live. Well, welcome Welcome. We're glad to have you. All right. Cool. Yeah, we have the the box coming the whatever they call them now Not battalion or not the getting started, but the Vanguard boxes And it's it's nice. Sure. I'll say that it's a frigate some Arco an admiral and Three like a bloom boys like that. That is a sufficient starting like I could see buying two of those easily You know, it feels like it's like a good central force of the army. Yeah covering the bases. Yeah, absolutely Yeah, and and you know, I might I might run two frigates now. I can see that. Okay What do you say what's next on the news? Yeah, so we also have Regiments around renowned are going on pre-order this week and we have war scrolls for them now. We do scroll to the wrong place so Absolutely, they they brought up the Put out I should say the free war scrolls for all of the regiments of renown I thought Tom we'd make this a rather long news section and give them a little review So people can can get our take on what we think here. How's that sound? Sounds great. Okay, it'll be fun. Let's do this. All right, let's get into it. So We have The what is it six? One two three four five. Yeah, six. I was right. Okay. We have the six regiments of renown the way they work is You can take them if you're of the appropriate Grand Alliance and not that army i.e. For example Elthuin's thorns, which is the Sylvaneth one if your army has the has an order general But is not a Sylvaneth army then you can include this regiment of renown So there we go. I would assume for the other armies, of course you can You can just take them like they're just they can just be part of your army if you're in that They're not a regiment. They're not an ally No, like they don't they aren't those things Like you can't take Elthuin's thorns in a Sylvaneth army at all Yeah, we'll see um yeah so the So that these guys are out here They have to belong to the regiment of renown Corps Battalion, which is this thing Which doesn't actually work right now But but theoretically we know what they're going for so that's fine I assume this will be fixed so it does actually work They act as an ally and we'll talk about this in a moment when we get into the individual scrolls And you can take them even if they even if your points wouldn't normally allow you to take an ally of that amount sure Okay, so that's the basic stuff do we see that really being the case on Anything and for a 2000 point list because everything's under no everything's under 400, but I assume they're they're covering their basis for smaller Points play yeah at 1500 points you only have 300 points of allies and a thousand points You'll have 200 points of allies so yeah, and people may still want to include these I so there you go Okay They have a slightly modified we should talk about the battalion first because it is a slightly modified battalion It does have unified so it's a one-drop deployment deployment But it also has each unit in this battalion must be within six inches of the hero in the same battalion at the end of the Deployment so they can then move apart, but they have to set up together. Yes, exactly. Okay Stop tapping Tom. All right, so the Let's go. Let's just take a look here our Sylvaneth arch revenant and the gossip and archers is 310 The kill bow and the bolt boys are 310 ironically also making the kill bow into a leader, which is pretty funny fascinating The corpse cart with bail file beret The corpse cart I'm not gonna try to say that twister and the zombies is 180 coming in by far the cheapest one just bargain basement allies They're just slide it right on in there. Absolutely, and that does make the corpse card into a leader Your rune lord ten iron drakes and ten long beards are 340 a lot of people in there your Magister ten horrors and the three endless spells are 300 and then your ogreite mervon on your fomeroid crusher and your mind stealer spear anks the three coolest kids on the block are 290 okay, and of course They're all unique and single and have to be taken as this whole thing and they have to be taken on the battalion and yada yada yada Yeah Okay So we're all we're all on the page. So So You said that this doesn't actually work. Is it because that some of these don't actually have heroes? No, it's because nothing is actually a troop. Oh That's fair. I was gonna say like it's a single take That only the only role they have is leader Now what's what's like? There's no actual separate thing to fill this slot with right now? Obviously their intention was that like the arch revenant is the leader slot and these guys are the other slot It's their intention is plain as day. I don't think anybody you know, yeah, it's fine It's just this isn't actually a separate pick normally. That's not how it works, right? You can't right when you take a group of things you can't slot them into into different sort of No, what I was laughing about was that some of these don't actually have heroes like the beast Skewer or kill bow like that Gains a leader and also gains the hero kill word keyword or doesn't gain the hero keyword correct It doesn't need it. They only need the leader so right but on that on the unified description about the deployment Oh, yeah, six inches of the hero the hero. There's no hero. Yeah Yeah, that is correct Which I assume I assume all that stuff will be like those little minor inconsistencies It's their first time doing the regiments. I assume that'll just be fixed up. Yeah quick FAQ So whatever. I'm not gonna worry about that kind of crap Let's talk about the actual Regiments now, okay Vera Mordz shamblers This is our corpse cart and 20 zombies if your army has a death general. Oh, yeah, right. I'm sorry. It does gain the hero keyword Okay, the corpse car. It doesn't normally have one. Cool. Very good. Excellent. Yeah, it's right here I just hadn't I hadn't read ahead to correct you I figured we were gonna find out here down down below but at any rate if your army has a death general But it's not a sole blight grave lords army You can include this regiment or now and if you do so no other allied units can be included in your army You can include this regiment or now in your army, even if it's points value exceeds the amount allowed for allied units so Okay, we got it this I'm not gonna read that every time I just wanted to lay it down so we all understood once you trip into these guys they are your allies and It doesn't matter if you don't have the points or not i.e. playing in a smaller game as we just pointed out You can still always take these guys Okay, okay. Cool. So we all we all get the basic functionality here Um in this one. Yes, the corpse cart becomes a hero because he's a legend among grave robbers Which is a very funny title. I do like that And then repurposed wards. So the zombies get a six up ward well They're holy within 12 of him and he that is to say the corpse cart gets a five up ward While it's holy within 12 of the zombies. So they're giving each other. So you're gonna push it Yeah, you're gonna push this stuff together. Yeah encouraging you to keep these two things operating as a as a You know as a cohesive unit, I suppose Although thankfully not as tight as they have to be set up, uh, which I appreciate I appreciate they kept They made that like a 12 inch bubble instead of a um Instead of some like keeping a six inch bubble boy that would have been annoying without the zombies I mean saying And then most interestingly because like what we really want to talk about here is is the special ability worth it That's usually what this is gonna come down to right. Yep Because you're getting a less customizable hero because all these heroes are going to end up being unique So nobody can take anything You can't go into like a one drop or anything like that, right this year So you're increasing your drops. You're cutting off various Avenues for advancement and selection since you're taking unique heroes and all that kind of things Yeah, so the question is are the special abilities interesting worth it, etc Now in some cases these guys are actually less points than Sort of taking it separately or whatever In some cases, they're pretty dead on this, but it's pretty close in all cases. All right. All right So veramord shamblers are subtract one from ward roles for enemy units within 12 inches of the corpse cart In this regiment or a down That's a new rule. That's a new rule. That's a strong ability quite strong Uh gets rid of all those annoying six up wards that float around Yeah, especially for 180 points Mm-hmm I mean this one comes out pretty interesting to me Uh, I don't really care Because I like I go ahead I was I could shove this in a um I could happily shove this in a knight hawn army Yeah, I think this one's actually quite interesting It's relatively generous bubble of moving around It's giving you enhanced ward saves on your unit Not that 20 zombies is that hard to lift but it's cool. Sure. Nonetheless. Yep. Yep. Um, and it can still do work Sure, it's fine. It's fine But it's very interesting in combination with other other units in your army to just start subtracting out ward saves To keep this thing kind of like behind your other things that might be fighting Uh, I'm thinking about, you know Having the ability to let you move all these guys three inches because these guys are both um dead walkers or whatever they can move Three inches and you couldn't do that phase You couldn't do that because that you'd have to be a uh, a soul white army and you can't be a soul white army with this Um, oh, yeah, you're right. That's funny. Yes. Yes, of course Again, barring on whether or not you're right bar your whether or not you guys can actually just take this unit Yeah, sure. Yeah, you're not gonna be able to get synergies with them assuming you can't actually and because it was explicit I'm assuming that's gonna stick. Um, but what I what I would point out actually is Let me remind you that these also have all the default abilities as well And the corpse part with the bale for brazier Uh is also minus one to wound for enemies nearby Within a nine inch and so it's minus one to ward save within 12 minus one to wound within nine Okay, so what are we rating this one? Uh, I mean, I would give this like a b plus maybe. Yeah, I'm thinking b plus on this one Yeah, like uh, it's not like a must take but you know, I look at this and go Yeah, I mean it's worked probably 180 points I agree. I could see this in most of the other death armies OBR don't mind this the as you mentioned the penalty to wound the penalty to say Sorry to ward saves quite potent word saves often get in the way of of OBR And what they want to do because they're not a hugely hard hitting army, right? So that kind of they they want to win attrition wars. So making it so their opponents It's harder for them to attrition them. I think is is pretty solid and these guys are cheap as we mentioned, right? At 100 and what do you say 180? I think that sounds right Yeah, like this doesn't also just also doesn't use all your points as well Well, it does maybe you can't take another ally Oh, you take this now or yeah, it shuts off. Sorry. I must have I'm I must have missed that. Okay. It's okay We're all we're all dealing with new stuff here. Yes. This is it's all good. That's all good Okay So, yeah, I think this one's a winner cheap effective high utility good abilities Yeah, what's not like imagine running this behind like a like a wall of mortet guard Yeah, sure or or honestly most other death armies you mentioned night haunt I don't mind this in fec either. I'll point out like honestly. I like them in right in all these conditions It's just it's just a useful thing All of those all of those three armies we've mentioned want to get in there I want to get a melee want to do some damage and don't love it When they run into like ward saves, you know something like nergal or something, right? So hey, why not take all of nergal's five up ward save in a bubble and make it into a six up Seems pretty strong Okay, cool Let's look at the next one the coven of thricks. Oh boy this one Okay Yep So there is an important thing here that is worth that that we can all Thank god for all right This is a hugely hugely important note about these guys when I read these guys. I was terrified Okay Is it is a paragraph on the bottom left? It is It is so first of all same things about blah blah chaos army, etc, right? And then the horrors of zinch unit in this regimen of renown Cannot use its split and split again ability Um cool, which would mean we're down to the what's the other rule called it? No, nobody's ever used spite spiteful split or whatever that kicks back mortals Yes, so that's what you're using with your little pinkies So they don't the important part here is the pinkies do not turn into blues and do not turn into brims, right? Yeah, okay Now let's talk about our actual rules in the first battle round after the players have received their starting command points But before the start of the first turn the magister in this regimen or renown can automatically cast a spell They know that summons a disciples of zinch endless spell Do not make a casting roll that spell cannot be unbound and that endless spell cannot be dispelled In the first battle round set up the endless spell as described in the summoning rules Okay, so he's bringing along effectively an allegiance ability with him for for for what's going on here because remember That's something that zinch itself can do so he's taking that to the other chaos armies. Okay And then we've got sparks of propane potential once per turn at the end of a phase in which a horror model In this regiment of renown was slain While its unit was wholly within 12 of the magister in this regiment You can pick one on the spell on the battlefield that was summoned by that magister and remove that endless spell from play If you do so that magister can immediately automatically cast a spell They know that summons a disciple of zinch endless spell blah blah blah don't make the roll can't be unbound Set up the endless spell as described depending on the type of endless spell you set up You can immediately do one of the following So burning sigil of zinch resolve the effect of the radiant transmogrification ability as if it were the end of the movement phase Basically tick it off. It pops off Tome of eyes attempt to cast the parchment curse with the magister in this regiment around as if it was your europea So use the special spell you get Or demonic simulacrum resolve the effect of the snapping jaws ability as if the endless spell just moved So again, just resolve the effect of it. The point being is that so Once for turn at the end of the phase after One or more pink horrors has died you get to shut off one of your endless spells and bring it back out in some new position quite interesting Yeah, this is just begging for shenanigans. It's it is quite shenanigating Yeah, you're not wrong that you can reposition it if you can get your own guy killed Sure. Yes, you could like in any phase if you need to reposition your spell and you have the ability to get your own guys killed Right. And so like I'm even thinking about like throwing in another endless spell out Right Like where it does damage in an area Near one to where your horrors are it kills a horror And then you get a free spell on top of that of one of these like there there might be some really interesting Tools as well the like the burning sigil Um Yeah, I don't know. All I would say is that I think there's some really interesting options Sure Somebody said we froze for a moment. No interesting. It seems like it's working now. I've been watching it the whole time It's worked fine on my my computer over here. Like I'm watching both the I watch both the live stream and the actual like You know what the actual stream out going like and it I didn't get any messages. So it should be fine. Hopefully everybody's still here Hey everyone Hopefully you can all hear us again now. Looks like it's working fine. If you do if you can hear me Hey, tell you what? Why don't you hit like and subscribe? That's fun stuff. Uh, there you go. Indeed Yeah, and so all all I would say is that there may be some really cheaty things you can do here So, um, which I mean that feels on on the nose for each. So Sure Yep And the question was do these three endless spells count toward your three endless spells for your army? Answer I have no idea. Maybe possibly But you have three. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. These guys have 300 points Cast them, right? Right. Um Yeah, I don't know So here's the here's the sure. Well, we're we're doing the recap right now falling Uh, so the question is these guys are 300 points. It can lead to some shenanigans with the endless spells You don't have your split and split again. Thank god What's what do we rate in this one? What's it worth? Is are we gonna see this taken? My gut is it's like a b minus Like it feels like you have to work and then it's going to be corner case to really optimizing That that's my gut My gut on it to see I think it like I think that Uh, some like castee flavored s2d Would be able to take advantage of it because Just how just because like no none of their other people can cast any of the endless Because they also happen to uh Like they have a magic plan already. Sure, right? Sure. Yeah So yeah, I mean what I'll say is this like I think that it uh, I think that it could potentially Like the only way that this is useful if it's being exploited in a way that wasn't necessarily intended By the way, I'm not sure by default right now that your your s2d casters can't cast these these spells If they're there's something they're in your army list. They're an endless spell now He requires a zinge caster to cast them So I thought it required a certain keyword, but okay so like Barring an faq. I don't remember if it's locked to zinge or disciples of zinge I'd have to go look at the endless spell Yeah Either way if it's locked to disciples, then yeah, they can't if nobody else can cast it But I that's um, that's why I'm giving it like a a c because ultimately um The the issue with them is like I it's only only disciples of zinge wizards can attempt. Okay. Cool. Yeah, there you go. So your other dudes can't cast it That's why though um so the the the thing is It's cool. You can do some fun stuff But it relies on it's like too smoke too clever by half So like yeah, maybe because you can as as uh, dan pointed out in the chat you can include coalition troops, right? Sure, they're not your allies. Yeah. Yeah, so you could technically pull in like a gaunt summoner with coalition And he could tap into these sure um Yeah, maybe maybe maybe there might there there there might be uh, they're like in I will stick by my b-minus Okay, fair enough. Let's keep moving. Yeah, it's interesting like the coalition thing I hadn't considered but you're absolutely right. Dan is absolutely right The coalition troops could could get into it because they are disciples of zinge people you're pulling in Yeah, all right. Hargax is pit beasts It's these three guys So there you go Beastial domination once per phase the ogroid mermadan In this regiment of renown can issue the all-out attack or all defense command to the fomroid crusher or mind stealer spear Anx without a command point being spent Yay And the worthiest dog at the end of the charge phase you can pick either the fomroid crusher Or the mind stealer spear anx in this regiment renown and one enemy monster within three inches of it If you do so roll a die on a three plus the strike last effect applies to both units You picked in the following combat phase. Okay. No, I don't hate that All right, so these guys I cannot remember all the points for these. I'm sorry everybody Uh, these guys are 290 points What are you getting you're getting like One decent monster in the mind stealer spear anx who has a pretty useful thing going on And you're getting two completely sub par. Well, they're not actually monsters, but you know what I mean like Units none of these actually have the monster keyword. Let me just be super clear um, you're getting one average unit and two Bad Well, the mind stealer still has his game right the the mind stealer still has his game right his dice game No, he doesn't have his dice game. He rolls now at the start of combat and it's still Oh, yeah, but but it's um, I like how people are are correcting me on the monster. I know I know they're not actually monsters everybody I was I was I was using it colloquially um, but this gives him his strike last back Against monsters. Well, he can still make somebody strike last. It's it's a thing. It's just sure sure. It's a bravery thing Okay, sure It's a bravery test. Um There's no way I'm getting I'm picking this Tom for the love of all those holy mute your phone. How do you have that so loud? Uh, okay so, uh The Like I I just can't see it Yes, uh, yes, ln or di Yes, they count as allied units not only do they count as allied units They count as all your allied units regardless of their actual points like you can't take these and other allies What I don't understand with this. Let me say it this way what I don't understand with this Is I don't know what army wants them Sure Of the chaos armies. Yeah, what chaos army looks at them and get goes them Right, man. I wish I could have access to that stuff Yeah, like it just it just doesn't it I I don't buy it. I just don't buy it. They're cool models These are three of my favorite models. Okay. I think every one of them is absolutely gorgeous I think they're fantastic I don't know. I'm not a big fan of that crusher. I like him too. Um, I like all of them. I really do but uh No, no flipping way like a three up chance to make ab monster fight last And they may not even have any monsters. Sure Yeah Um, like I don't I just don't buy it the the foam right doesn't do enough work the mermadon is bordering on straight up like terrible Um, I have played him in s2d as as a as an actual like purposeful choice leader And the sphere angst is is decent like I'll give it that so Yep, okay That one's gonna be a pass. I'm giving that a solid d like this one's d for me I don't know. I don't do not take I would I would venture a d-minus like this is bordering on the worst possible Because not only are the rules not compelling And the cost is high It actually just brings nothing to any of the uh, uh, like parallel army. Sure like Yeah, right. No, exactly. I I agree All right, I don't know what if that's not an f. I don't know what an f looks like Yeah, because they're all super cool and at least the one ability is marginally useful. That's why it's not enough Okay, that's it. Like that's that's literally it. I'll allow it. That's fine. Yeah, I mean like Making a monster sometimes fight last is marginally useful Sure, sure okay Big gricks cruel shots This is a kill bow and effectively six bolt boys Um, hey wonderful. Did you want some shooting go for it? If your army has a destruction general, but is not a cruel boys army, you can include this regimen or pronoun Very interesting how that works with the rest of The rest of orc war clans Sure, uh, so because like you could still potentially be taking these and um Iron balls Well, not just that sure But also you could be taking these in a big while army and still getting benefits and bonuses because you're not a cruel boys army So that's fun um, okay So let's let's get into this here uh Toxic laden skewers if the unmodified hit roll for an attack made by this modelless regiment of renown is six That attack causes a number of mortal wounds to the target equal to the weapons damage characteristic attacks He even sends so again, it's just them bringing their army rule with them carrying over their normal um Carrying over their normal thing Um, hey these death god says it shouldn't fit in because it's still orc war clans units Uh, I understand that but the rules there say Unless something up top Unless way up here they have different rules not a cruel boys It's just not a different thing up here Yep, not a cruel boys army. That's fine. I can I can there's plenty of other options there. So that's cool. Yeah, so you could Put them in big wall right now Yep Okay, uh, so and yeah Oh, that's very important with somebody asking if these are galley galley vets No, none of them are galley vets or galley champs or whatever None of them get the special rules none of the heroes because they're all unique So they all lose access to that just so we're clear. We didn't mention that at the beginning, but it is worth mentioning And then skewer it again. So this is the actual special ability that isn't just them bringing their Allegiance ability with them If any wounds and or mortal wounds caused by a shooting attack made by this regiment of renown's beast skewer killbo Are allocated to an enemy monster and not negated You can pick any number of other models in this regiment of renown and say that they are focusing fire If you do so until the end of that phase add one to the attacks characteristic of missile weapons Used by those models, but all their attacks must target that enemy monster Okay All right, pretty strong ability pretty strong ability so uh We've got the same trip from mortal wounds as we all know this is a pretty decent shooting platform Um, I just looked at these guys and their points went right out of my head. I'm gonna say 310 Let's just guess we're not scrolling back up. Uh, so Tom where where you're rating this dropping this in the other destruction armies, you know Do you want a 310 point decent shooting platform? in iron jaws or as the the aforementioned Big wash shenanigans where you can still cheat and get all your bonuses or in in in big wall. This is an a sure And just add to whole if you're going to take this anyways, it just adds an extra cool ability Right, you just get free abilities, right? You just get free attacks out of your out of your. Yeah. Yep. Well boys. Yeah. Yeah Um, what about giants? Are are is there any sons of badmout that would think about taking this? Uh, 310, uh, maybe let's see if let's see if i'm wrong. They just said 340. All right. I'll scroll back up Let me look now. You're gonna make me double check Nope, they're 310. I was right. Yep 310. Ha. So You could do like How much is a baby giant? 150 So there you go. You could do He's going to effectively this is going to replace two baby giants effectively Yeah, you could do three magas a baby and these guys and I don't hate that Oh, sure. Sure. Yes. That is completely doable on the current and that like puts pressure Right, like one of the things that the giants players can't really do is force um Like force people to come across the table like Because most of the time they're having to deal with what's in front of them, which is the magas Yeah, technically right now you could build an army that is three magas Two babies and these guys that is doable as long as all your medas. Oh, sorry as long as all of your magas were uh worst on this Sure, sure Um, yeah, I mean, I think that I think that you could and I think that it would be viable is what I would say Okay Um, uh, so and and again like in that it would be like a beat Like I think that there's a strong reason to bring those but I don't think it's broken or I don't think it's skewy at all sure uh I mean My general feeling is it's not bad um It does give you Some interesting reach in some of these armies Uh, it is a little bit of a discount. This is one of the ones that's a discount over its normal cost Yeah, um, hence why it's an a in big one because it's just better because it's just taking it. It's just getting more stuff for cheaper. Yeah And Uh, I don't hate it. It's actually interesting in the giant mirror match Not that I think you have to worry about that too much in the current season I don't think anybody's really not not too many people are going to be playing them But it increases your output against Other magas sure the biggest downside is obviously the killbow, right? I mean the killbow itself doesn't really show up much in basically any lists because overall it's a pretty weak swingy unit And a lot of what you're doing is pinned to that thing actually delivering and that's tough Sure, so Uh, I'm gonna give it a solid b though. I think it is I think it is good And I agree. I think it's better in big. Well, all right norgrams rune throng This is for your for our order folks uh and So this is obviously your 10 Uh iron drakes 10 longweards and the rune lord cool beans All quite fine functional useful units um The so, you know, that's fine Uh, and then your ability is once per battle in your hero phase You can pick one objective within six inches of the rune lord in this regiment or a noun And say norgram will strike the rune of restored hearth If you do so for the rest of the battle Models models in this regiment or noun count as two models for the purposes of contesting that object objective And their unit has a ward of five plus while they are contesting that objective Okay So Let's let's just quickly remind everybody what's going on here with the individual components Um, this is the most expensive one. This is 340 base Uh, the rune lord is quite a decent little priest hero Um with the ability to both Pray and unbind with a bonus at least as of right now who knows what his world will be like in in the wild Yes, exactly. He's he's a plus two unbinder, which is pretty good. That's us. That's a strong unbinder Uh The long beards can grumble and buff the iron drakes. You often took 10 Uh long beards just as literally a utility buff unit to to to grumble and then Uh, give you the bonus to for for wounds. Yeah on on your your iron drakes And your iron drakes are are pretty good shooters if they don't move now Uh The long beards also have an auto unbind of Like they can auto like auto dispel an endless spell. Yeah, they can actually Yeah, so this is actually a pretty potent like one two combo between the rune lord and the grumble Yep, so I quite like this one even though it's the most expensive one Now the quite like it and and their special ability is quite strong We're talking about a season with a reduced number of central objectives Where you're often going to want an anvil to sit on an objective and be able to withstand something and 10, uh 10 long beards aren't the toughest thing in the world But they're they're they're going to be a four up That have a plus one to save natively um And they are then going to have a five up ward counting as two models are only one wound each yep, um But the interesting thing is that like Because of how this is worded like any way that's played dwarves know that like they're not going to move anywhere So like wherever you put them the new that objectives that they walk on to they're going to be there the entire game Right. Um, and so realistically what's going to happen is they're going to move on to their objective trigger their ability And for the rest of the game, they're just going to get get the benefit of count counts as two and Um five of work So here's the question because these guys aren't going to move anybody off an objective really I mean, they'll give your own the shots are good. Okay. They are but like Iron drakes can do work. Sure. They're they're good I'm not saying they're not and they have the rune lord to buff them Like it's funny to me that they put a box out that is literally the three pieces you use to create deadly Iron drakes, right? Because it's the rune lord for the rend the long beards for the grumble and then the iron drakes themselves If they if they had just included like a bridge and let's spell in here as a bonus You really would have had the whole the whole shooting match as it were um But You know, my point is is that like it's going to be they're hard pressed to remove another anvil But they can do some damage from wherever they set up because they have that shooting potential And the priest is still doing useful things the whole time the aforementioned unbind So is that utility? It's a great off. It's a great off objective holder Sure, like a slightly to the side or secondary slightly to the side or like in a like three in a road like the back objective holder Like they're a great thing to just set there and just let them volley into combat. Yeah, sure That's correct. Hades. You cannot reinforce these because they're taken as an exact set with an exact number right um Is this worth 340 and if so, what other armies does it show up in who wants this kind of a deck chairs, you know Like deck chair sitting anvil That sits there and provides a little bit of utility and fire support not a tremendous amount, but some Um, I have I have a statement. I have one. I think I think new ko would like this I don't know anything about the new book, but I mean ko in general how they play Yeah, sure. Like this feels very much up their alley, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Um, like you can't give so as a because the priest is unique. You can't give them a prayer, correct? Uh Correct unless your book says otherwise where it like would somehow allow a unique priest to take something But I can't think of anything in order that's allowing that okay Like sometimes they'll make exceptions and spell doors and stuff where it says like Yeah, or unique heroes. Yeah, like the reason why like there was a there was a leaked a bit like Allegiance ability for ko for Tringy, which is a specialty prayer. Um And so, uh, yeah, I would have to look at the wording on that like so I think that that ko could possibly use this Um, maybe fire slayers, but in general like you're going to get more out of just running more of your normal I think it feels duplicative with what fire slayers wants to do. Yeah, because there already that already feels very in line My statement was going to be daughters Who are famously quite fragile don't have a lot of you know, don't have a lot of like bodies that will stick around Because they're they're they're high they're high cost bodies are often or sorry a high number of bodies are often Very easy to remove right like 10 sisters or 10 witch elves or whatever whatever Um, this actually presents them with an interesting Anvil option in the army that does still by the way play into Uh, you know potentially like a bow strikes bow snake strategy Um, the the issue there is doc is already a really expensive army And you're taking a big chunk of it out with this like this isn't cheap You know now now it's on So But I think doc and ko are the two that really jump out to me Um tp grant this is 340 points for this particular regiment over now. And so it's it's expensive So, um, yeah, maybe sylvaneth austin j maybe um, they do also sometimes have a A Anvil challenge Although that it would depend a lot on your list. I guess it would depend on what exactly the list is you're doing there sylvaneth are in another similar situation where there's there's quite a lot of expensive stuff already um, so I I guess how viable it is and ko will come back next week and we'll see what the points look like All right, let's keep going because my goodness is this taken forever. All right Elthuin's thorns Uh, arch revenant and gossip at archers again order, but not sylvaneth blah blah blah This is the arch reven five gossip at archers Um add one to wound rolls for attacks made by the gossip at archers unit in this regiment That's wholly within 12 inches of the arch revenant. Um I don't care. I don't think About that mortals. I don't want normal wounds. Right like i'm i'm pitching for the mortals on gossip It's right. That's that's why I took those guys like I'm not getting much out of their normal shots Um, but okay cool. I guess fine This one is also 310 by the way. I think Uh, and then flight of the zephyr spites If the gossip at archers unit in this regiment of renown is within three inches the arch revenant In this regiment of renown when you roll a two plus to retreat using its zephyr spites ability which allows them to Unleash and then bounce Right, that's what that's what that ability is Instead of retreating you can remove both units from the battlefield and immediately set them up again So the gossip at archers unit is wholly within three inches of a terrain feature The arch revenant is wholly within three inches of the gossip at archers unit and both units are more than nine inches from all enemy units Pretty cool ability there turns it from just I mean they were already their retreat their fly away thing was already mostly getting them out of combat to be Completely fair, right like this pulls everybody and puts them anywhere else on the board Yeah, which is which is potent Yeah, I mean it's still just six models for 310 points. Um Like my gut is we're talking like a c plus here b minus. Yep Um, because there's a lot of things that are just going to kill these guys when they come in Like i'm thinking impact kits Like there are some armies that like they're just going to roll in and lift the gosmits and they don't get to bounce at all Sure sure with like end of charge face stuff Roll in impact hits stomp, and then it's like, okay cool And okay now you can do your unleash and fly away with your couple of models, right? Yeah, because all of you as the active player your stuff goes first. So, um, yep Yeah, I just like i'm saying c plus maybe Uh, well, by the way the stomp wouldn't happen first. I spoke too soon. But anyways, go ahead. Yeah Yeah um I'm with you on the c plus actually. I think this is cool. The question is what army? I don't know who right? I don't know who needs this Let me make one suggestion I have one thought Okay How's this in fire slayers? You know, I was just thinking that because so again, I'm Like again based on the leaks from that we're on what's happened today um Like fire slayers are going to lose their gun stock gun hauler teleporting Because of the change to that unit and so they don't have a higher source. Do you mean are you talking about ko? Is that what you're talking about? No, like fire slayers lose access to allying in the gun stock from ko Like they can still bring it in but the ship doesn't have the mobility it once did With the teleport and so this may return some of that functionality that you used to get from a gun stock um, so it could be valuable um, but at the same time I don't know man like Or I could just have like a once per game 18 inch move gun stock that can do something very similar I guess I don't know these guys feel pretty mobile Um, although my challenge with this is here. Here's the here's the challenge I have That's why I think these guys are ultimately maybe an even see Yeah, if I know You have this ability That you can teleport you're just not going to come in. I'm just not going to charge you and let you Teleport away if in any way I'm risking an objective or anything valuable Now what I will say is this Against a lot of armies you may have the you know the fox force five effect okay Where like realistically you could line them up to just stop charges Sure to just be in people's way Yeah, yeah and be like cool are like you move up three inches. Are you going to charge awesome? I'll roll my all unleash all unleash. I'll roll on a two-plus. I teleport everybody away Sure, and so like for so it gives you a one-off Uh, like delay or or harry basically With an extra round of shooting, but is that worth it? And the answer is is three hundred and ten is a lot of It is a lot of for 15 wounds basically, right? Yeah, I just 15 pretty fragile ish wounds. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, okay. Yeah, so it's all let's see I could I you know I I could see some uses my guess is some people play around with it and try it But I think it'll mostly be underwhelming All right Cool. Well that ends the longest new section ever That's not sure we've done we've done longer, but that's a pretty long section way longer I know we are definitely not going to be done in the hour that I uh, I predicted we would sure All right, so with that let's move to uh, some pick of the week Alrighty So Tom, what do you want to share with everybody? What do you got for a little pick of the week for everyone? um, uh Rob honest wargamer rob um I don't know how I don't pick this. I did a review of the ko book And that's out there and so check it out. Um, we're going to be talking about it next week and um And he goes through the entire leaked book and so you can check it out now right now too Okay, very nice so Uh, I have two two two picks of the week for everybody Um, I'm going to break my own rules even though I'm because Tyler's not here So I've got I've got to you know, live that Tyler life in in in principle Hades, no, we did not because I'm not going to go over partial rules Like I'm just going to review the whole book next week So I'm not going to talk about things out of context of like points and other synergies and stuff like that There's no I find those like here's some snippets of rules articles completely worthless is my honest answer um The uh, okay, so first pick for on the hobby side Uh, Travarion our good buddy friend of the show and an all-around nice guy Has a new video up all about his favorite method of speed painting uh, and so Uh, that it's super cool. I really like how he breaks it down and it's very easy and Uh, just check it out like it's it's a different take on sort of speed painting And I really like the results he gets with it He's doing it on a space marine, but there's no reason you couldn't apply it to other types of models as well Um, especially I'm thinking like slaves to darkness models and stuff like that would look really awesome with this Uh, and my second pick of the week is going to be for our good buddy scott the maniac Uh, who posted up a brand new video today About his age of sigmar a trash game. That was his question Uh, and he complains about a bunch of stuff about aos in it And uh, this will not go unchallenged Uh, so everybody's got to go watch that to see his points. He's making or whatever or don't I don't care. You don't have to watch this. You don't have to watch it if it's gonna make you angry But if you find it interesting, um, but we're gonna have scott on the show sometime as he mentions in the video We're gonna get him on as a guest and we are going to discuss It's going to be the debate oxford style showdown Like that's not even that we're not even going back far enough. We need to go the lyceum Okay, we shall be uh A treasure debate for the future of democracy and all that is just in the universe And uh, we'll see if we can't win scott over to the side of truth justice in the amer- and and and well I guess is the age and the double turn and the double turn way. Yeah. Yeah Exactly Uh, so at any rate, um, that was it was it was funny and uh, no, he does not understand the priority role, but that's okay Uh, we we still love him all the same and uh, hey, he's he's We're we're gonna we're like I said, we're gonna get it on. We're gonna we're gonna discuss Uh, so it'll be it'll be a fun show. Okay Let's now move on and talk about some hobby time All right tom Hobby time What have you been working on? Not a whole lot is the answer. Uh, my my professional life has had me, uh, literally just swimming These last couple weeks So I've just been playing catch-up Okay, okay So nothing painted nothing like Yeah, just nothing That's totally fair All right, all right skimming. What's up? Or leaks for new books. That's what I've been doing I see very nice. I want to answer a couple comments Season of war. What's up? Uh, I know it was talking to scott earlier. It says I look forward to this debate I also have words for scott. Absolutely. Maybe Hey, maybe we got to get you all on too. I'm just gonna make this a little party Wouldn't that be great a little a little showdown at the o-town? I'll just step back I'll let the season of war guys do it tp says, uh, he provided youtube comment levels of commentary on the game And a guy with his following actually trying to discourage new players to a game instead of hyping a game He likes I get it. I get the concern But you know at the same time he was putting it out there with the idea that he wants to see these some of these things change He talks about some of it being his personal opinion Which he's certainly entitled to put out there He does have a very light. He puts it out with a very clickbaity title But that's just the youtube life like he's trying, you know, he's trying to grow his channel I get that and it gives us an opportunity. Yeah, you live in diamond. He lives in the algorithm Right. Yeah, and what it does is it gives us a chance to bring him on and talk to him about it And show why we love this game so much, which I really do I think this is one of the greatest games ever. I love it. Do I have problems with it? Yeah, sure Does he highlight some of the problems I have and we've raised on this show? Yeah Absolutely, we've talked about things like rules bloat and stuff like that, right? And You know, I think it would be good to to to have a discussion with it and to to have a discussion with him Because I think there are probably lots of people like him out there who might be on the fence about it Or who might see these certain things and get turned off And I think if we can just have a reasonable discussion about the thing and point out, you know What are the benefits and why we enjoy it and why it's so much fun? I think that serves a good counterpoint to it. So Yeah, there you go. That's why I want to do it And so yeah at any rate Uh, what games does he like for context? Um, he is a big fan of uh, what is it? Uh, uh, So it's a way of a song of ice and fire or a war game thing the the rank and flank Game of thrones game. Yeah, which I by all accounts. I've heard like some people really enjoyed it It has some very clever I I played scott took me through a game when I was there visiting And it was a perfectly fine rank and flank game It does have some very clever mechanics in it that I that I thought were neat But it's not a game that I would ever want to play again at any rate. Um, okay My hobby time, uh, has been surprise surprise still working on golden demon projects And guess what I got ahead of where I thought I was going to get I've got this guy Lately you look at him and you're like, oh, he's basically done And I'm like, yeah, he's basically done. There's just one little problem And this one little problem is is this piece right here This this other arm he has that is completely unpainted Uh with this giant ridiculous banner But he himself is done. The other two are done So all that's left is the banner piece Which I'm confident I can make good progress on quickly And then we just got to do the basis for all my stuff and we're we're ready to go So we're well on track to uh to hit the target and to get all my entries done for golden demon. So Um, so I was I was happy for that Okay, uh, all right uh well With that Tom are you ready to talk about some psychographic profiles? Always Yeah, boy, let's talk about this thing. We did a show on this a couple years back And we ranked up all of the armies into the various psychographic profiles. We'll be doing that again tonight. Okay But also We're just going to talk about what the heck this even means Because the reality is we've uh Many many times on this show In fact, it's probably on a bingo card, right? we've talked about Timmy Johnny and spike we use these terms all the time And every time I say them, I know there's there's a couple people who ask what the heck does that even mean? And for the one or two people who are asking That just means there's like 50 other people who don't know and just don't bother to type it out, right? So we're going to go through it tonight with an update talk about the armies talk about what the heck this even means And because I think it's really important The reason I think this is really important is because as a game designer it's really really really key that you have concepts like Psychographic profiling and psychological utility And positive and negative psychological utility in your mind as you're crafting a game Um because you need to be thinking about these kinds of elements in The stuff you design what's going to speak to people and that's really what this is right okay, so uh Let's Let's take it. Let's let's get to the let's get to the introduction. All right. What the heck even is this? What's a psychographic profile? So this was you got timmy. You got johnny. You got spike Uh, so These were created for magic the gathering by mark rosewater originally and he's used his when when did this article first come out tom 2004 I think was the first timmy johnny spike article almost 20 years ago. Is that does that sound about right to you? It does okay That sounds right. I like it was a long time ago and I remember reading about this and It just really clicked with me right away Uh, because I saw immediately and was able to identify myself in some of the choices I make and the the decks that I build and how I think about it and and more over Even though this was created for for magic, right? It Very much applies to all games um now These three profiles though, they're they're like magic creative profiles. They generically work for all games because they're not Getting it anything specific To magic that's really important to understand here They are asking questions about the way You engage with the game What motivates a player to play? What kinds of things do they do they enjoy? And what keeps them playing? Right. It's not what you like That's really important Okay, it's why you like it There's a very different level there, right Like I saw cw kreiner say shout out to all the forthos is in the chat Vorthos not a psychographic profile forthos is real It's an appreciation profile Okay, yes like melvin and forthos and all of those things they're real and they matter All right, and I'll talk about that in a minute, but they're not a psychographic profile. They're not getting it. They're not Right They're getting they are the thing you like Not the why of the thing you like that's the difference right okay uh Yes, absolutely sickness maximus as I work in education We use psychographic profiles for course design not these profiles, but it's a concept that goes beyond games 100% So and it's it's notable to say here that like psychographic profiling originally comes out of lots of different fields This came out of like marketing and psychology Originally and then was imported into game design When I talk about the technology of game design evolving It's this kind of stuff. I'm talking about making game design aware of the tools of other Verticals and industries. That's what matters other disciplines. Yeah, yeah, absolutely Right like the technology of game designs game design involves Sorry evolves exactly like any other technology Right like it's And and being aware of those technological shifts We don't tend to think of them as technology because it's not like a phone It's not a thing I hold in my hand. It isn't a thing that goes beep boop and has circuits Right But that's not I'm sure you tom because you're you're a scholar, right? And I know for an actual Fact that the way scholars work with texts And you know the way you work with texts is different in Many many ways from say how scholars would have worked with it or interpreted things or understood things Or referenced things or whatever a hundred years ago or 500 years ago or a thousand years ago It's not that there aren't similarities But you as well use evolving technologies to do that some of which are are real indeed and some of which are more process and squishy like this Well, not only that just from a discipline standpoint The like the integration of other disciplines and so interdisciplinary work will inform how we read and engage those resources indeed There you go Absolutely. Okay. So that's what these things are but let's talk about we're gonna we're gonna keep drilling down That's just like the base. It's the why not the not the The what but the why? Okay Okay So like I think iron jaws are cool. I love iron jaws, right? The why Can have a lot of different answers All right, so in warhammer, let's let's bring it over here first uh So Tom, do you want to answer moth mat? He said, oh, what does tom do professionally? Would you like to answer what you do professionally? uh, yeah, uh, I um my formal uh, phd is in biblical studies And so but I in great engage in all different types of um, uh Public thought and the like and writing and research and like yes, you do tom. I'm sorry. Did you um Did you just publish like one of the reasons tom was was gone because he was doing a lot of professional stuff as Had some life ish stuff going on But I'm sorry tom. Didn't you get a an Atlantic article published here recently? Uh, yeah, yeah last week. That's pretty great man. Congratulations. I'll say that on the show. So there you go Thank you. I appreciate that I don't know what kind of overlap there is in our audience for that But it's super cool and I wanted to say congratulations. Well, that's well, that's like news media, but yeah Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yes, the Atlantic is a pretty major pretty major publication uh, okay So in warhammer, uh Many armies lean into these individual profiles being more friendly to certain individuals All right, meaning that like some armies can be more timmy or more spike or more johnny or some mix or whatever Uh, most players are not solely one type of psychographic profile People are people are often a mix though. They usually favor one above the others Okay So in other words a lot of people it's very rare that you see somebody who's like, I'm just this Most people are like a little bit of this a little bit of that but it's mostly this or something like that Uh hit like for tom's success. How about that? Everybody everybody make tom feel good and hit like Uh, okay So there are other reasons to love armies as well And this is this is like the appreciation profiles I talked about the art the lore the models and so on Right, these things really matter a lot Right, but they're not the deep the same deep-seated. Why of this ecology, right? This is the play experience is what this gets to Uh, okay and then People can have different psychographic profiles over tom time. Sorry over tom. That's true too Now over time or even in different games in different settings Often with a shift to lean into different aspects depending on the social context Right So what that means is like you might context switch or something like that depending on the game you're playing Or the crowd you're playing with if you're at a tournament versus like, you know A casual game in your basement or something like that people might have different sort of Parts of their own psychology they lean into especially common if you're already a split Type and you sort of can lean both directions, right? Yeah, it's fascinating for me because like I definitely have two like definite skews Based on the environment that I'm in like what I'm playing in a basement It's just simply nothing like what I take to events Or or even if I go to a narrative like what I would take to Steve's events are it's just not What I would end up taking to like Nashcom sure Um, and I think that's fair right like it is important to say this isn't like it's not like as though you're branded with this And it's some static thing. It's just what you tend to favor most people have a thing they favor But that can vary a lot based on the games Okay all right so Who are the people in our neighborhood in our neighborhood? Let's talk about the individual Psychographic profiles and help you identify which one you are because that can help you one of the other reasons I like to do this show is because understanding this can help you then pick an army that is going to be Providing you with sort of positive psychological utility over time Right that you will you will have an enjoyable uh Play experience with right Okay, cool Timmy Timmy was sort of the first one that was that was sort of Put out there. I mean it's just it's just close to your it's just close to your heart. Yes Timmy wants to experience something Timmy values things that are big big monsters big effects big spells Timmy often plays for the journey and out the destination doesn't put it doesn't put as much weight on winning But puts a lot on being able to feel like their pieces did their cool thing Right loves cool moments Can really tolerate a high level of chance and randomness As long as those things occasionally You know pan out and create like something really really really crazy really fun really wacky really unexpected, right? Like timmy loves a role where it's just you know I need to make eight saves out of this on fives to stay alive and and then and it happens It's just like oh my god. That's crazy. Even if it's the enemy who did it A great example of this is like you have giants here, obviously, but Uh like the warp lightning cannon sure First game like that is a that is a timmy that is a timmy unit if there ever was a timmy unit 100% hundo p. Yes. Yes Spike does not like that thing No, it is way too random and unreliable the first time I read any version like Nope Yeah It's yes, uh chay said why do I do this the drama? Yes. That's that's just really it timmy likes when they're sort of drama In the game when timmy also likes novel experiences, right? So we'll tend to They want to roll that one on the power dice or whatever and just Launch something into the stratosphere with uh with more on that warp lightning. Yeah 100% They live for that moment that one moment where it pops off Yeah, and timmy's memorable moments aren't going to tend to be the game wins You know, it's going to be the time that this Unexpected outside of the normal deviations standard deviations, you know event occurred right, um I will give an easy example from actually 40k way back in the day. So we used to play a lot of 40k way back in the day and uh In my imperial guard unit. I was getting charged by a Like an avatar of cane, which I think this is in like third edition memory says it was a pretty good unit It's pretty strong. Certainly my like six little imperial guardsmen who were getting charged Stood no chance against like this thing but then he Failed to kill the dudes and was like injured because I had shot him with cannons or whatever earlier And my little guardsman hit him with a shovel and he failed all his saves and died And you know that was just like I still remember that and that was 25 years ago, right? The little the when the the little tiny goblin strikes down the mega gargant or whatever, you know that kind of that kind of thing Yeah, so when you when you're you know rolling for some crazy damage effect on 2d6 and you roll the box cars Right if if the event of something is a bunch of people going Whoa Right if that's if that's the general response from the room Timmy loves this This is where timmy lives. He wants to live in that that moment, right? It's not about that happening all the time. It's that like timmy wants to experience that In a in a game, right? Okay Tom How much timmy are you? Do you have any timmy in you at all? I mean traditionally, I haven't classified myself as timmy, but I'm I would be lying if like There's probably at least 10 in there Just simply because like the johnny in me is almost always working for that timmy experience Sure Does that make sense like the johnny is trying to get in an engineer that one thing Where everything like the rube goldberg machine or whatever lines up and spits out this one outcome that is just statistically Not likely. Yeah Right like that's so even my johnny has a so 10 is what I would say. I'm probably a 10% Timmy. Yeah, it's fair. It's like 75 percent for me. This is my major motivation, right? And tom knows me well like this is This is absolutely The the the vast majority of the reason why I play the game I want big fun cool things to do big fun cool things and when my big fun cool toys Fail or get killed before they get to do their fun cool things I'm sad if my big fun cool things get to do their fun cool things and then I lose I'm like, yeah, who cares I got to do my fun cool things like I won right? I achieved the thing that gave me Psychological utility as it were right like I had a great time The the the win in the end is so minor comparatively Right. Yeah, like no, I just I did fun things Right. Yeah, and if you stop vince from doing fun things He does not have a fun time at the table. Right. That's that's when I get sad So like when he plays Nerval and just bounces off everything that is not a fun experience for vince Well, the worst is it yeah, the the game I always talk about being one of the worst tournament games the one against you Where you're putting me under conditions of like everybody's basically hitting on sixes and was like wounding on nothing and couldn't kill So you roll all your dice and do nothing, right? Yeah, or for example engineering a situation where like your mawcrusher can't land can't retreat can't charge can't do anything can't pile it You know something like that also a terrible experience. Absolutely And yeah, um freddy red moogle says the rare breed of timmy that plays horde armies But because it's fun to see like 50 guys get wiped off the board or having some gabbo bonk a big hero No, 100 that's still timmy like I big big units like big hordes Like, you know, if you if you've looked at the soul like grave lords and said I'm gonna put 180 zombies on the table Right. That's a very timmy thing to want to do Right So yeah, there you go. Okay Um Inquisitors says what if you're equal parts of all three then you're a pretty rare flower is what I'll say Like it's it's not impossible. Certainly people can have Like I said, most people have some motivations of all of this but um But it's pretty rare to see somebody literally that evenly split, but it can happen Uh, yes timmy hate. What does timmy hate if we know what timmy likes. What does timmy hate? Timmy hates like debuffs Timmy hates losing as things at the top of one right before they get to do anything Anything anything that says you no longer get to do the thing you wanted to do, right, right? like timmy's gonna rate npe as debuffs really strong shooting all that kind of stuff that will like lift his pieces before he even gets to do a Fun thing or Make it so his units don't actually function how they wanted to so on that's over, right? Yep, when when a timmy's expectations get subverted That is when the timmy is having the least amount of fun, right? Like I put it all the points. I took my big toy. I would like to use my big toy now, please Yeah, right okay Uh, no not necessarily inquisitors not everyone hates debuffs and and getting alpha strike some people like spike doesn't care at all Spike accounts for that kind of stuff and we'll like play through it. He's got a plan to win Yeah, so spike or I don't know if that's we'll get ahead of it. No, we're next up is johnny. But yeah like No, not everybody hates it. That's that's no spike is more than willing to sacrifice his toys if it means victory Right, even against an alpha strike. Yeah 100% Um, like if that can play into his plan, great. That's that's fantastic, right? Yep, okay Johnny Uh, so here I have a little scaven rat though admittedly of course the arch warlock and all that Scrier can also act very timmy like But johnny wants to express something often cleverness Um, johnny likes the unusual or overlooked choices and combos like the quickest way you can get johnny to play a unit is by saying This unit is bad, but secretly in this situation. It could be good johnny's all over that, right? Like oh so so we covered a bunch of those previously we covered a bunch of the Regiments of renown The the zinch warband regiment is johnny like 100 no one takes that Other than a johnny who is wanting to exploit the crap about it if if your list has a wind condition of shenanigans Right Then then you're a johnny like that's you might be a johnny. So that's that's just right there. I don't mean the lion um, okay So like johnny is often looking to express something that's usually cleverness, but not always He likes unusual overlooked choices. He loves list building like a major portion of most johnny's is the list building phase They'll agonize over the last 200 points of a list like it matters Like it even matters right because in their mind does matter it does it does matter In their mind, they're constructing the like the the myriad situations We're like, okay, but if this and this and this happens, then I'll need this thing But if this and this and this happens, then I need this other thing. All right, which situation is more likely to occur Which which of these which of these situations is going to happen in the in tables four and five against the other top You know meta armies. Yeah, that is absolutely a johnny thing Vince has likely muted me at times as I tried to send him messages Over like a four hour period trying to agonize over the last 120 points of a list. Yeah, sure. That is a that is a true statement Yeah, if you believe there's a perfect list, right? You're a johnny and that's just it like tom will be like here Check out this list. No now this list. I'm like these are the same lists I like to find the difference between these two pictures. It's the same picture. Okay Right. All right And johnny loves the moment when his plan or her plan all comes together, right? Like that it's the It's very much, uh Like the I love it when a plan comes together Conception, right? Like there's some series of elements of things. They're gonna do some trap. They're trying to lay They're thinking about moves five steps ahead How do I need to get you to move here to do this so I could get my unit to move here Which will cause you to do this which will then cause me to counter strike and I'll win Right, they started like rhub goldberg machines that that johnnies are always constructing in their in their minds, right? Right, right. Okay Uh, um, what else about johnny tom? You're you're super johnny, right? Let's talk. Yeah I'm probably like a 65 john like this is the bulk of my personality is what drives Like I can just spend hours list building when I get a new book I will digest everything Sit with it and then just start spinning out lit and I'll and I'll run through 30 40 60 lists From a book if I really like the book, um, just to try to figure out like What like and that'll be my starting by the way Like I'll spin out that many lists without picking up anything without picking up any dice without moving any models I'll do that many lists and then Um, and then goes into the testing phase playing it to actually fine tune to make sure that everything's doing what it should Yep, um Johnny's are They're going to be most frustrated When they're about to do their thing and you stop them from doing their thing Yeah, sure. That's when when you when you lynchpin When you like hit the port on the death star, all right and stop their whole plan from going off Right Yes, like that will eat a john, you know, we talked about like for timmies taking away their fun Like their expectations for this It's so often subverting the johnny at the last minute Is like the like the biggest letdown that they could ever experience Even worse than losing Yeah, yeah, and that's just it like johnny and timmy both everybody plays to win, right? It's sure it's not as though people aren't trying to win. It's a matter. It's not a question of are you trying to win? It's a question of how much does Winning matter to you right or something like that and and you can like can you lose and still feel as though you've drawn That positive utility from this Johnny's want to feel like they're unique like they're special like they're clever like they're independent Like they're the ones who who are doing something johnny loves underpowered overlooked units Things that like you know aren't normally played but in the right combination the right hands can suddenly yield high value Right. Yeah, so johnny's would spend a lot of time like they're not going to be attracted to the most powerful things right They're going to be often attracted to the most unique And the reason why is because they're looking for the opportunity Exfoliate that thing in a way that no one Right, like they want to take whatever that thing is And just turn it up to 11 in this weird corner case and have somebody look at it and go Wow, I guess that really is a good unit, right? right exactly um And so You know the the reason I use the rat here is because like and we'll talk about this when we get to books But you know skaven in the list building phase is an extremely johnnyish experience with the way you can put together all of these myriad pieces And have them sort of dancing in this complicated ballet of interactivity and optionality And you know really express your cleverness through like I move this here this guy Jumps in this knoll hole. This guy jumps in this knoll hole. I've already skitterleafed here. I go I do this right these guys pop out of ambush here You know like all these decisions. That's another important part about johnny johnny loves Like johnny isn't scared of complexity timmy generally will be like I don't like complexity I like things to be relatively simple straight forward. I wanted to do what it says on the tin Johnny looks at complexity and in complexity can find value Right because it provides because what they're looking for is They're looking for a series of permutations that nobody else is combined Or oftentimes johnny. Well, I guess spikes are gonna be like this too Like they want the complexity in the moment so that they can adjust accordingly Yeah, it's about having the more decisions So one of the one of the interesting things about psychological profiles the psychographic profile Sorry, is how they map on to your your interest in making decisions Like timmy wants to make the least number of decisions in the game johnny wants to make the most Yeah, right The more decisions that are made the happier johnny is because that's all stuff where he has a chance To prove that he made the he or she made the right decision. Yeah, so like historically um Historically lumineff were a johnny army. Sure Like when they were just all the decision all the decisions all the time Yeah, like we think we think of uh, benjamin savas You know like his decision tree of the 12 spells he casts in certain orders in his hero phase That's matt writing those down and mapping them out is one of the most johnny-ish things i've ever seen Right that that itself is just like the psychic profile psychographic profile given form Right timmy would never do that never no timmy would be like this sound this sounds good right now And spike would distill it to like the three things that have to get cast Yes, right. Yep. Okay Cool. All right, so that's johnny boom boom spike Our picture here is sentinels Spike wants to prove something often. They're the best but not always Spike often gets a bad rap because he he or she generally is the psychographic profile most focused on winning Okay, um, but that does not in any way Mean they are a bad person or more likely to be a cheater or more likely to be a bad game or anything like that Any one of these psychographic profiles can be a cheater or a bad person or a bad game right period period period period end of story okay Spike just is like well, this is a game the point of the game is to win So i'm going to try to win. I don't understand what the rest of you are talking about um, right, right like um And so You know spike just simply sees like there is a goal. I am trying to achieve it I will take the most direct route to that road Right, there's a right answer in a spikes mind. Sure Spike likes raw power efficient units and answers Right spike is generally happy to net list doesn't need to feel like they're they're like super clever Like they thought of their list if it's if a list is good a list is good great so a great example of this for me was Like years and years ago like 2017 for those of that have stuck around um When the book if you go back and watch view of The storm cast book that year I talked about how just utterly broken vanguard wing Yeah, sure And I and I said let me trot out an example of it and I talked about the the teleport and redeploy a vanguard wing that you can do everything Yep, and so I preached it from the book launch. I talked about that. Yep, because as a johnny I saw that and went oh isn't this neat Right this this doesn't do the things that um That like that other armies normally do and so it was this weird cornercase thing But then what happened was is that a bunch of spikes got ahold of that and went let's do this and so for the entire season They just crushed their opponents And but like for me that was never interesting Like like just taking the thing that's powerful What wasn't interesting? Everybody else was doing it and so as a johnny i'm just like now. I'll find something else. Sure Yep, um and so for spikes they have no problem if if if it is a list that was successful at other events They will take it again to other events. Yeah, sure because who cares Right, they're not trying to this isn't a contest to get recognized for your ingenuity Right, it's a contest to win five games. Like that's what i'm trying to do here And if this provides me the best, uh, you know avenue to that then let's do it Okay And a lot of top tournament players likely have a A spike element to their personality like you have to have a hard drive to get to 5-0 at a tournament And it's interesting because at that level of skill, there are some of the nicest people you'll ever meet and play in the world Like they are trying to win they will build Or take a good list that will get them to that point But they're not a jerk about it in any way They're just going to like Most of these people I play most again. There are jerks in all three psychographic profiles I think spike gets stigmatized a lot I just I want to make sure we're not doing that and we stay away from that because there's nothing wrong with playing the game to win Right, like that's fine and taking net lists Like if that's your jam do it like more power to you, but for some people that that doesn't motivate them right Now like what makes any of these people a jerk is when they act and break the social contract Right, like if you kill timmy's toys or debuff him and he does nothing but Complain all game about how much this sucks I don't get to do my thing this sucks Well, then that's a horrible game Right and like yeah, so you're just as likely to run into that with anyone, but anyway Spike hates Right, uh, what what does spike hate? Well, it's losing is a pretty simple answer But uh spike also doesn't love it when randomness Uh, sort of like chips away at his ability to win right when because like spike looks at the numbers and says like on balance This is the way things should roll out like spike wants things to exist within the normal Standard parameters, right? I will I will lose some units. I will make some bad roles. We'll get some good roles that kind of thing In general don't take the delight that timmy's do in that in that unique moment Like if you know, it's usually a bad moment for them, right for them because it's betraying expectation the timmy's like want to embrace the the the The subversion of those expectations spikes rest their game on the expectation of Delivered performance, right? And so they want things to be reliable as as mathematically possible, right? and so hold on a minute here because cm Says spike equals whack it does not It absolutely does not Win at all cost players is very much a derogatory term because like a win at all cost player will be mean We'll do anything we'll like stomp over the top of you Right and and like literally just do anything they can to win up to and including potentially cheating, right? Um That's not at all every spike and there are sure there are like I said There are some bad actors in this psychographic profile just like there are others spike wants to win That is a true thing But there is a difference between your Psychological utility is drawn from winning and you are willing to win at all costs Up to and including being a jerk and doing everything else and in sort of poor sportsmanship Right, there is absolutely a difference here like I can think of lots of spikes Tom that you encounter that you've played at at top tables these tournaments, you know, I think of like I think of Caleb Wolters Okay, just call him out Caleb is such a nice guy. He's an incredibly fun guy to play against Um Really good opponent like Caleb is absolutely a spike Right. He's playing to win. He's been playing z to every minute of every day Like I would say that Caleb's probably like a spike to me Like like Caleb likes the fun stomp, right? He does a little but he's playing to win He's playing to win and he's playing optimal. Yeah, right, right. Yep Um And so like and there is another thing that spike hates here that's secret Spike hates it when there's something So easy and efficient that timmy gets to pretend like he's a spike So like spike would have really hated like the 2019 fec slanesh time period When like timmy was just taking his big stompy monsters and running around and acting like spike Right and just winning games incidentally. Okay. No, it was true Um, like so that's that's the that you know, there you go. Yeah Um, that's true. I I absolutely agree chase a healthy spike wouldn't cheat cheating means the win Is not legit. Yeah, most most spikes don't want to cheat because that means they didn't earn it Like they want to earn the victory there. That's that is a thing Right, there's stripes on your shoulder for getting that cheating would be anathema to most people, right? And that's why I say there's definitely a difference between that and whack, right? Yeah, okay Like the game is the game if you debuff spike if you remove his units, he'll be like yep Okay, like cool. That happens. Right like moving on, you know what I mean? Like that's not Yeah, like the spike spike has no problem Like lifting up his toys. He's like, cool. This is part of the game. This is the rule You're not gonna often hear spikes complain About you doing something in the rules, right? Yep Now I will say spike as a psychographic profile falls in the middle of that decision range Like they want a sort of average number of decisions They don't love it having too many because that's more chance for things to go wrong and for randomness to creep in Right. Yeah At the same time spike is also sort of the psychographic profile least likely to be able to conceptualize the other two right because like Timmy Uh likes playing big stompy things but gets that other people are trying to win Right, or that other people spend a lot of time thinking about lists You know and and so on and so forth spike as a cycle as a psychographic profile often has trouble Not always again. We're just talking about this is broad sweeping generalizations Often has trouble sort of understanding like what are the rest of you people on about? Yes, right like like for to the spike what talking about the other two profiles sounded like nonsense Right, like that's not how people play the game is is what they were saying. Yeah as like Not said they're the least empathetic But just simply that there's a sense that they Like that there's a mono vision as to how the game is playing Yeah, it's just like this is a game. It has a win condition. I'm trying to get to that thing Like I don't understand. That's what the game told me. I'm supposed to do Right, so yeah Uh Hades had asked why the sentinels are the picture for spike. Do you want to answer that? Yeah, sure because this is the most spike-ish unit I can think of in the world It negates randomness as like in a huge way, especially in its old version where it could like see over line of sight and all those kinds of things It's a long range highly efficient highly effective highly deadly Low risk unit that is has traditionally and often been extremely efficient at what it removes It punches above its weight with your number of points of sentinels You will often remove more than the that number of points while also removing simultaneously their Their best units they're most crazy when couple something like teclis which was auto casting all your spells or whatever You could they could be like that that unit is going to teleport over here lamb at light Efficiently just lift units off the off the table Yeah, yep And I agree chase jerks are just jerks. That's right. That's right Yeah, like bad players are just bad players Nobody's no none of these profiles are more likely to be bad players or two years than anybody else It's just a bad player is a bad player like we could just we could just separate them off and be like Yeah, that that person's a jerk and that's fine Okay, so now that we've laid down all the the the basics Tom let's uh, let's assign some actual armies. Here we go Okay, this time we have the triangle. I did it tom. Look at my awesome triangle. It's totally professional I'm so proud of you. Thanks, man So Now Let's go ahead and assign some of these armies. Okay. We got a lot of armies Oh my gosh Okay, here we go Okay And I have them roughly grouped by grand alliance. I mean that that timmy zone is pretty big It is I feel because it's gonna need uh, some some extra space Also because I'm bad at building stacks of triangles and diamonds and stuff, but whatever doesn't matter This was the best I could do. I'm sorry ever that checks out, too um Okay Uh Let's just start grabbing some armies. Let's let's start with let's start with a simple one. Shall we Sons of behemoth. There they are the big boys themselves They just sit firmly in timmy to me. Yep Like almost peak of the triangle Especially they're they got even more timmy in their current incarnation Their weapons got more bigger damage, but became more random Right. They the body the body slam Yeah, the body slam. Yep. It's like a body slam is the epitome the body slam is the epitome of timmy Yep Like this book now screams timmy. It's it's got to be the most timmy focused aligned book I there's almost zero percent of anything else your list building exercise you can do in your head Right. Like You just Your army is basically four units, you know Yep, there's almost no room to play there Like the clever play is taking a bunch of um Uh Is taking a bunch of of war stomp is that way you could fit in an extra man crusher boom Behold my list tech Right Okay Tynomite said this that's the only time this season where giants will be at the top Boom got them. All right. Yeah, so I think we all agree and this one's pretty pretty obvious, right? Okay, let's grab a little death army tom. We're gonna start with your favorite because they're right on top Let's talk about these spooky boys Uh the knight haunt. They're so spoopy You may disagree with me, but I would put them in between johnny and spike leaning towards johnny Okay Because it has all the tools like there is just it's all the tools you could want And there are some like it's there are aspects of the army that are just simply hyper efficient I'm gonna lean away from spike because it's like their main mechanic. It's still based on random rolls those charge rolls And the spikes are gonna like Like the your best things are not real reliable There's still still a slot machine action still. Yeah, there's a little slot machine So that's why I would put them in in the in the middle ground between johnny and spike leaning johnny Yeah, I think that's that's I think that's exactly right. I don't disagree with you at all the list tech with knight haunt is deep There's lots of different options Johnny's will often and there's a lot of like you've been you were playing around with the black coach The most johnny-ish thing you could do in your list, right? Because you're like, okay here if I use this thing in this right way Then I'm gonna get maximum power out of it and it's totally one of those units a hundo p Right. Yeah, it's not a spike unit But it's its abilities are crippling and strong So spike is also going to be quite attracted to it things like just knocking off bonuses to hit to save Making people fight last Getting rid of inspiring presence. These are very spike abilities Right like spike reads those things and says me likey, right? That's a clear path to victory Right. Yeah It is knight haunt is so far away From from timmy. It's it's it's not even funny. Oh geez. I need to bring up. I didn't put them That's very funny. I'll have to bring to front. I didn't realize I forgot to restack all these Okay, amazing. Yeah, thanks. Such is the quality of content that I produce But yeah, I think that's right. I think it's right there. Okay. Let's grab an order army Uh, here, we'll grab we'll grab daughters of cane. They're hanging out at the bottom. They're like a little appendix Uh, one of the most winning armies of all time consistently strong Where do daughters of cane fall? To me, they read like a spike timmy army. Okay Because like you can't play daughters and defend yourself Yeah, like you can't play daughters and not be comfortable with spike Right like with losing things, right? Oh, it's not the playing part. I'm disagreeing with Yeah, it's a timmy part. Yeah, so the reason why I'm saying timmy is because like daughters lends itself to big numbers sure And like picking up handfuls of dice and just like and again, I'm thinking particularly of the like the aspects of um Like witch elf hordes Um, which we haven't seen in a long time But those were all super timmy Now that said it's probably like I hear your critique. It's probably more spike-ish than anything. Yeah Because it doesn't have lots of the monsters and stuff like that. But at its center was always marathi Um, who was always big and stompy um So I don't know. I like maybe maybe uh, maybe daughters are spike-ish I don't know the the more I talk about it. Yeah, I just I think this is absolutely like one of the more spike armies around like I'd be willing to put it like There You know like with just just slightly towing in because marathi is is a pretty cool big interesting monster and sure because Hordes and you if you're if you're a brand of timmy is you want to roll up Get a unit to to four attacks each and roll 120 dice and that is a brand of timmy Right, like this is an army. I can't look at chuck And say that he's anything but a strong timmy And he and he absolutely loves this army because of the timmy elements that are strong there That's fair. That's fair. Um now you say that that you know what I'll say this here's what I'll do I'll I'll buy your example. I'll push it just a couple more steps into timmy and it's almost all craith doing it Yep craith is carrying so much water in that in that move because craith takes a very spike army And takes all its power and shoves it into randomness Yes, which is like the most timmy move you can execute, right? Yes, and that that's why he likes it Right. Yes. Yes The vast majority of players Over time did not play craith craith mean shout out to chuck for logging Literally hundreds of games with it. Yeah, right Uh, but but I just I I see it as sitting right in that space. Okay, cool. Let's let's bring in some chaos. Shall we Zeech The disciples of zeech Uh, zeech zeech to me Is a johnny spike army leaning spike Okay, why so? Um, so it's to the right of um, it's to the right of night on um because uh It has all the tools like it's inherently a johnny army simply because of all the lever Tools and everything that it thrives on. I agree. Um, but it's its base mechanic is a spike mechanic. It's cheap Eliminate randomness. Yes. You don't want to roll dice anymore. Cool Play plays zeech. Yep So like so that's why I said it like it is a spike charm Spike johnny army that leans heavy into spike. Yeah Yeah, I mean anytime your core mechanic And it's even more now Because you get to start with an end the spelling table. Why deal with casting rolls, right? Why roll dice? Yeah, you don't yeah Yes, you just automatically get one of these It has one of the most hyper efficient kill boxes. It has one of the most hyper efficient anvils in the game Right. No, but it also is an army of shenanigans We we cannot like peep johnny loves it because it is shenanigans, right deciding when to use Your dice Yeah, right. Yeah, uh Like knowing when to execute on exactly how to cast your spells You have so many spells to cast and so many potential targets and so many fake points you can use It's just it's decision tree the army right And so like yeah to me. I think it's it's pretty dead in the middle is my honest answer. Yeah, okay Yeah, I again we'd be arguing over slight degrees there, you know, yeah, but uh, But to me it has the the the Combo the list the decisions everything that johnny loves it's a chance to prove Uh, sorry to express uh cleverness, but it also absolutely has a strong game plan to win to prove Uh, you know that you can that you can take a game, right? It's just yeah, it's right there Okay And so to me that just says like Boom it hits that center spot. All right, let's swing back up to the top Geats Uh, we're talking new geats here Okay, and an important thing to note is that the power level of an army is not necessarily derivative of it because that swings over time, right? It it it can be in fluid it can influence it, but it's not determinative So I I'm gonna say that it they get sits between timmy and johnny Okay, towards the inner side of the triangle Moving towards spike Okay, now Where would it have sat not new book? Would you would you push it at all towards spike in the new book or in the old book? Sorry, I apologize Uh, no It would have been firmly in the in the timmy space Okay because Because The old mechanics for list building were anti johnny like there was no synergy across any of the sub-faction It would have had to appeal to the part of johnny that likes to win with underappreciated things I do think there was still johnny there, but yeah, yeah But but the randomness of the mechanic But the prior and the current just inherently pushed spike out um So like but I would say that there are still elements of spike. So I again, I would put it in the center Of the where the overlap is between the johnny timmy triangle Yeah, I think I agree with that actually Uh, I think it's absolutely a pretty clearly defined timmy johnny army you look at stuff like trolls and wacky shenanigans and Like it has the wacky shenanigans that johnny loves, but it does those with a lot of the types of Randomness and events and things that aren't wholly within your power that timmy loves Right, you look at things like the loon boss on mangler That guy is just random numbers all over the place his move has randomness to it His damage is like all over the shop on what damage it does, right? Yep, so that's just a super timmy unit hiding out in the army, right? Um, now there are some real johnny-ish aspects to how it plays I think of new river trolls and being able to use those and position those clear carefully with an extremely powerful But extremely short range Thing that you know, that's a great johnny unit being able to Properly execute on that unit going the right direction setting up the Counterplay for it and so on very johnny-ish thing Right robust like I think about the robust spell lures Sure, right like in all the tools that are in the Yep, so No, I agree. I think it's very much a johnny timmy army And I think it can I what I'll say is at a deeper level than this. I think it could move Up and down that triangle depending a lot on your list Okay, like I think there are more or less Holy timmy sort of lists you can build out of it and holy johnny sort of lists you can build out of it Yeah Based on like that the way you decide to utilize the units on on offer here. I do agree with I I'm sorry. I missed who's uh But there you go freddy said it it's a timmy johnny army that's priced too efficiently right now Yeah, exactly like spike is over here sniffing where he doesn't belong because of the hyper efficiency Of these units right like because they're they're way under pointed but the second those points go back to you know like where they should be Okay, spike's gonna he's out of here Yeah, like that's not interesting to spike anymore But but timmy's like I don't know it's just a couple less swigs right who cares I'm still in for this right. Yeah absolutely Okay, let's grab a little order army here Let's grab some fire slayers. Tom. Where are we where are we putting these these little these little angry fellows? Where are they going? Um, honestly, I would put them pretty firmly between timmy and spike Okay Um, they they are they have historically been marked by hyper efficiency Right and and you see this just simply because You don't have a lot of options Right, um that you have reliability and redundancy even and some of the builds for Spike right so like you get the buff that you need when you need it Right um the They have the stompy elements that like the flashy big numbers um that uh that timmy is gonna want Like you're saying and builds like for the if you're going all magma droths and stuff like that Yep. Yep. Um, but uh, I think because of the just the hyper efficient I still think that there's there's some spike in there. I mean it is an army that is built to die Right, like they are in it to punch to do a punch up and lose some bodies and kill the enemy And so like it's not a like a tricksy mobility Like it's it is a in your face Punch you into the ground and and just win by by meat By meat and fists. Yeah No, I agree. I think they are a timmy spike I'm gonna I'm gonna push them in the middle. I forgot to darn it all um, I mean I I would lean probably more timmy than spike Um for me, but I could see them be being dead middle between the two of those Yeah, I think I'm gonna put it pretty in the middle ish because I think that that largely depends on sort of Points and exact specific rules. I think they floated back and forth But they're like little bits here and there but they've always been in the overlap space Right, they don't have a lot large variance units. So list building is not a super part of this It's fairly linear. Yeah, there's not a lot of things. There's low mobility There's not a lot of chance to use things in like a clever way to pull unexpected plays The things are low decision points. Yep Yep, it's it's you know You need to move use the move room. You need to kill use the render room, right? Like there's a Put the appropriate face with the appropriate emotion. Like that's it. You know what I'm saying there they they love that It's simple efficient effective stuff. It doesn't die. It hits hard It does what it's supposed to do for the most part the units do what they say on the tin You know and and that's it, right? Yeah, like hearthgarden berserkers are a great example of like a typical spike unit like it just does everything It kills well. It survives well It like it murders. It does the thing. It does the thing. It's one of the again I could have used a I absolutely could have used a hearthgarden berserker as the sort of iconic first spike 100% Because it's another one of those units that's just it's it's doing a lot and appealing to everything spike ones, right Being efficient on o and d and and a path to victory all in its own, right? Yeah, the only thing that would have made it more spike is how how it used to be in lords of the Yep, yep, okay Uh Let's grab some s2d here. Let's talk about new Slaves to darkness Where where are we putting them? Where do you where do you got here? Uh chase says dwarves also hate shenanigans an excellent point Uh, I mean if it's me, I would put slaves almost dead middle Why so Because it's I feel like it plays in all the spaces and it has something forever Okay, um, it it has the shenanigans of johnny It uh, it has the hyper efficiency of spike And like the big armor dudes of chaos all appeal to the timmy So, um, I I am inclined to put them more towards the middle, but I also understand um I understand if if we move them out of timmy No, I think they're 100 dead middle. I think they are the axis around which this triangle turns Let me see if I can justify this for everybody. Okay Let's talk about the johnny aspects first list building for days For days they have all the units in the world and they work in very independently and in lots of interesting ways Right like how you choose to combine units and do wacky things Like what marks are you taking what units are you marking? What what's their general job you're putting those things in When you've got a base anvil unit that depending on how you mark it and play it could become a a hammer Right, that's that's johnny's dream right there, right You have uh, so that's like there's there's a lot of like chances to use things in very clever ways and stuff like that spike side Spike loves like nergal marked cast warriors If you're trying to lean into roles and do things in an efficient way, you've got nergal icon wielding chaos warriors you have Corn marked cast knights you have slanesh marked ultra chosen right like the efficiency is there and they'll they'll do it right Timmy side you've got big wacky monsters and and and stompy things like the aforementioned uh They're not actually monsters. I know again, but you know sphinx and the the Fomeroid and the the Mermidans you've got the ogroids, which are a super timmy unit They come low save come swinging it with this high damage. They're you know, lots of wacky fun um And most importantly, that's absolutely right kyle. You got it That's where I was going one of the most timmy mechanics in the history of timmy mechanics I of the gods Let's go Right like yeah, I want to roll. I could turn myself into a spawn I could become a demon prince or get some wacky bonuses That's so timmy right like It speaks volumes that the first s2d list I tested when the game came out when the book came out Was a ramp eye of the gods to a million list Right. Yeah. Yeah, and it's just like it is the definition of a timmy mechanic Right do a wacky thing punch a button maybe get a reward Right like you're trying to timmy wants to go play extra mini games in the game Right Yeah, uh, so yeah, I mean I think it's just I think it's just the dead center. It's it's always kind of been the the hub Which all the other spokes go around Right, it's always had elements of all three books and can just like lean all of those directions depending on How exactly you decide to to play it? Right Okay, cool Good stuff Okay Let's go back to order because there's a lot of them This is the basic reason I keep jumping to order so many so many Okay Bring to front IDK tom, what are we doing with IDK the idaneth deep kin Where are these guys going? I'm gonna put them in Johnny Full blue But just to the left of night Okay Okay, because I think that IDK like inherently it is a John It is a it is an army of exceptions Right like everything is about lining up the right circumstance to maximize like that is their mechanic Of how do you how do you get to deny the enemy? Fun thing right like it is anti timmy in that sense like it is built to make timmy's not have fun with their shooting and target But uh, I think that it it it it lends itself towards spike because of um Because so because the reliability and there are a set that will push it towards that reliability Mm-hmm And so I still think that it it's not it's I wouldn't call it the epitome of Johnny No But I would say that it is Johnny firmly With a lean towards spike Okay, okay I think it's a little more spike than you're giving it credit for like I'd put it here above night haunt where it's kind of towing in To to to Johnny spike, you know, let's call it like 75 25 Now admittedly we have I I saw somebody say Hades. Yes said okay, but all turtles though. Yeah, like I get it I understand the turtles a very timmy unit it is right Yeah, because timmy likes sharks and turtles and stuff But in the end that's not enough to carry it up there like sure we can you know, I can push it up this way Just a little so it's kind of inching up there But that's not the actual experience like turtles don't do big cool things They just they're they're actually just pretty like they look cool. They look like a timmy unit Right, but they act like a Johnny spike unit They're this hyper efficient cover machine that like is very tough to remove And can go in and do pretty reliable Moderate damage and the only thing that's you generally held them back as they keep getting pointed too high right and But like the list building phase in idk is huge the decision points Amongst idk is wild Right, this is an absolutely Crazy army if you like we talked about when we did the idk review Uh about how high skill players the skill ceiling on idk is super high Right when you start talking like that, that's the sign. You're in a johnny army right Because there's so many decision points to be made That Johnny looks at that and goes I can capitalize on these decisions I can make the right decisions at the right time right to it'll give me the optionality To to do what I need to do, you know But it's also spike because it is still largely about exactly for the reasons you said I agree completely things like shutting off the enemy shooting making you they can only target But you want to target and like there's a lot of there's a lot of choice removal from your opponent And just sort of general efficiency. That is something spike enjoys right Yep Okay, cool Uh All right, and I do uh Sean said, uh AOS is a timmy leaning game in general. Yes, that's true. That's absolutely true That's why many armies have like a timmy branded sub faction if they might as well write it in there Right. Also, it says you can have an extra monster or right monsters gain gain x congratulations You've found the timmy right and they're they're they're almost never the good ones But they're always there and I appreciate that they're there Because that that opens up the door of an army that otherwise had doesn't really have much timmy presence to timmy also drawing some enjoyment out of it and having fun with it if Everything else falls in line like they like the models and all that stuff if their appreciation profiles are also in line And that's the key. It's not like these things work alone. They all work in tandem Yeah, okay Let's talk about some soul blight grave lords The s b g All right What about what about them Tom? Where are we going? I mean, I feel like spg and their current are incarnation Sits in that center space between Johnny spike and Tim Okay, why so? because it has It has the reliability like so Vircos like some of the most popular type factions are like granting the reliability that you're looking at with spell cast Or granting the reliability with bonuses that that the spike is really going to want But ultimately Sbg is is a very strong toolbox army If you just have to look across their units and how you build that army and it is truly like a tool for the right You know situation Um, you can see it in their spell lords. You can see you can just see it like all the way down And the difference is between the mortars, right? Like there are uh, there are and there are very lots of very unique tools that johnny can exploit in the book Likewise, it's hard to look at things that um, like Zombie hordes and not see a spike timmy unit right like Um, there are aspects of soul blight that timmy just loves timmy loves the stompiness Timmy are you know, like timmy loves the just the vast like pushing your toys around and lifting enemy toys Um, you know chad a car is a is a is a perfect timmy type piece Right. He hits hard and he makes everything around him Like that is the epitome of chad a car um and so I Or like the velocity, right? Um, the velocity is another example of just a huge like stompy timmy um, and so I My gut is to put it like overlapping pretty significantly with S like slaves darkness, although I would drift it a little bit lower Like it it is less timmy than I think even slaves Yeah, yeah, I don't think you're you're way off there to me. It sits firmly in this space right here So what I mean by that is I've put it mostly johnny with towing into the johnny timmy and towing into the spike johnny Okay, but it's mostly a johnny army And let me see if I can defend that. Okay. Okay Again, we're dealing with like a very large number of units a lot of list building potential a lot of individual pieces That need to be used in a clever way It doesn't have a lot of your units You mentioned like taking vircos and stuff, but that just kind of brings you up to par or like makes you decent A lot of your units are trash base They're just trash other than say like blood knights, right who are who are on scroll grade A lot of your units are just bad like they don't do much base But there's there's a toe of hyper efficiency in there and things like zombie hordes when you just start rolling enough dice Like spike looks that and goes yeah, that's very effective. I can mortal wound things down and restore models Like it's it's a predictable unit, right Right in that I can I can rely on the law of large numbers to sort of net me a certain number of mortal wounds every time I attack and it combines well with van hells and so on and so forth, right But like but the putting blocks of zombies back through grave sites is a timmy thing I Maybe maybe not. I that's why I I toed in to the sort of timmy johnny. Like I said, there's a toe in there But here's how I'm rating it. I'm super timmy. I hate this army The I find the play experience completely unappealing Right now. I'm not the I'm not the spokesperson for all timmies. Okay Sure, and I do think there's some timmy aspect to it. I agree with your point about the balasda I agree with your point about something like avangori, right? It definitely has um, some functionality in there But ultimately You know, I think of somebody who's really known for this army Okay, so like hobby bear Brendan, right? Yeah, the lord of death known for this army Right The reason he likes this army is because of the johnny-ish nature of it like you listen to him talk about it He loves the toolbox the optionality it gives him right Making the critical decisions with the critical units at the critical times Yeah, right, and I think that's the majority identify Sorry identity of this book again. I think it toes towards spike. I think it toes toward timmy. I agree with you It has some elements of both of those in there But the majority identity of this book is a johnny book Right, that's ultimately where I come down Okay, cool. Let's keep going Alrighty, let's go back to order again. We're going back to that. Well silvaneth Uh, where we where are we going with these guys? Ah, let me shortcut. Yeah, you ready? Yeah, they go all the way over in the far side of johnny They are and almost always have been a purely johnny army Okay They rely on wackadoo shenanigans the whole time to win. This is shenanigans the order army Strike and fade is a johnny-ish thing like they do weird spell casting things and charge and retreat and trick you with unleash off of the Like the the that um the the stupid little butterfly people we just talked about gossip at archers, right? What a johnny-ish trap that is trying to lay, right? Move this here and then the the situation you sketched out I know that they're like they don't actually get used in silvaneth, but the situation you sketched out Right is is a super duper johnny thing, right? Right, right Um, you're because you're trying to out clever people and that's how the whole list works Right. Yeah, and like they win they win by out johnnying the other version, right, you know, like this is why The the way the whole army wants to function Is like this is being Trixie Right and being this weird like strike and fade ambush force with high mobility that moves around and has Fragile pieces, but then when applied in the right way then all of a sudden it wins and like that's the identity of the army Right. Now that's varied and sometimes when things got super cheap You got like kernaught spam or something like that, which was this like very spiky Evolution of the thing Right, but that's coming gone. The army has always at its core From the from the jump. It's like hey Do you want to do you want to express cleverness? Right Yeah, this is your army, you know, like sure derthu is a very timmy piece with his giant six damage sword, right? Right, but almost everybody who plays sylvaneth doesn't rely on derthu's sword They almost universally curse it because it's not reliable. You know what they rely on. Yes 100% You know what they rely on their plan Correct every sylvaneth players got a plan Okay, they've got a plan I'm gonna do this and then this and then this and then this and then this That tells you you're in johnny town when you've got a five six step sequence plan. You're trying to execute Welcome to johnny town Yeah, when I roll up with with my giants. I don't have a plan Like there's no plan. I'm gonna walk forward and figure things out, right? Well, I'll respond in the moment You're gonna you're gonna punch some stuff in the face. Yeah, exactly, right? I don't know Do I look like a guy with a plan? Right? I mean ironically, yes, you did look like a guy with a plan in that movie That's why I don't actually think that second movie is very good. Um, but but at any rate, um, although incredible performance as always so, um, but like this is Johnny's trying to execute a very complicated plan every time And then often as sickness just said everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face And that's usually where their plan falls apart when somebody alpha strikes them down, right? Like that's it, right? Right, of course someone that yes Uh, so so that's I mean like that's boom. There you go Done and dust up there way over there in the corner like get farther out All right, we'll put them over here. They need to go all the way down Okay, cool beans. Let's talk about nergal So tom what's your what's your thoughts on nergal where they live in? Um, so I would probably put, uh Nergal deep in the spy or in the spike fully in the spike Um, but I would lean it. I would drift it up towards timmy Because I think that there are timmy elements of especially between with the the The simplified decision-making Sure plan And like I like I think about like, you know, old fly spam, right? Just push it all Sure, like all of that is just super super timmy Like but I like I I wouldn't put them fully into spike Because I also think that there are johnny elements and there are johnny builds within there Although that's certainly the minority and that's not really what Where it sits and so like I would probably put it to the left of daughters Um, but fully in the green Okay I've got a slightly different opinion, but we're pretty close My opinion is nergal is the spike mirror reflection of soul blight Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like yeah, they they sit like this towing into to the towing slightly into the the um Into the timmy spike and towing slightly into the johnny spike, right? Your list building does matter now, especially that the points have been adjusted there You do have to make decisions, but you don't have like a huge number of decisions You have a lot of resilience to it spike loves resilience, right? Where you can like something can afford to roll bad for you and you still tend to be okay Yeah, right. What's so fascinating to me? So finish finish talking go ahead. No, no, and there's a lot of predictability into things like you think Oh, but disease is super random. No, it's really not right disease is often pretty predictable You get in fights you will tend to ramp people to seven disease You will tend to do three mortal wounds, right? It's like it's that's what spike's looking for that Predictable baseline Right. It's like they know they can chew and effect and withstand A certain mathematically predictable amount, right? It's not decision-based It's just this will be hard to punch through while simultaneously doing damage There's those kinds of attrition forces lean quite heavily spike, right? You know timmy likes things like the cycle or some of the interesting big, um The maggot florts. Thank you the maggot florts. Yeah, you know or got super timmy-ish kind of guy, right? Yeah, uh Glotkin. Yep. Yep, absolutely. Tim Timmy likes the blikings. Yep Absolutely, so it toes into both of those spaces. There's some elements in there, right? It's not like it belongs in the corner. It's not it's not that spiky. No, no, no, no, right? It's right over there. Okay. No, it it makes me laugh when I look at how these Because the armies that I started and have drifted away from that I have like four armies of All sit more firmly in spike than I like to be Sure, sure. Yep. Okay. Cool All right, let's uh, let's see. So that was chaos. Let's go ahead and grab another order army here Just got to keep working these things down. They just they just keep coming. There's so many of them Let's finally do it L L loom in neth realm lords Are you guessing I I would just slot it like budding up against to the left of knight hawn To the left of knight hawn. Okay. It is a johnny army, but it is a johnny army with a whole lot of Sure And what I mean by that is it has all like has a lot of build options at this point It has a lot of weird utility mixed into those units, right? It has a wonderful customizability pieces like Like with all running a bunch of like a diverse array of wizards And yet it also has pieces like techless It also has pennies to reroll failed casting rolls like it has reliability in a way that spike loves Sure. Um, and so I still I still see lumeneth inherently as more of a johnny army spike army But I think that it's certainly it's it's moving into spike space Yeah, I think we're pretty close on this. I think for me it sits. It's not a timmy army. That's what no god. No God, no There's not enough walking cow mountains in the world to make this into a timmy army, right? There's way too many decisions way too much complexity way too much Ridiculous npe nonsense I'm gonna sit it right here kind of below s2d where it's it's got like a fair amount of of Pure johnny, but a decent amount of johnny spike, right and it is kind of splittish down the middle right and so like it it it absolutely in all of its Decision points and ways that it you have to like play the units even though they got a lot of stuff removed in the current book It's still a very johnny-ish army, right? And it absolutely wants to like it has options like sentinels the iconic I think for a spike unit Right. Yeah hyper efficiency. Right. It's just this this sort of hyper efficiency even in their current incarnation, right? Um, and I think lord zeve said it's a johnny army with a few very spike lists And I think that's a great way to summarize it, right? um And so, you know, that's why I've leaned it sort of half into johnny half into johnny spike Because I think there is some stuff in there. That's just that it does it can push that efficiency button You know things like it peels way more to spike. Yeah, I I see that Yeah, I think of things like the ignoring rend and stuff like that, right? That kind of techless is like a spike loves the crap out of techless Right. Hey get rid of dice right. I'm here spike like Techless is the only wizard spike. Whatever one Yeah, he's the perfect I do this and then I do this and then I do this and I do this. Yeah Are you going to respond because if you're not I just auto cap There's no chance of fail. Yes. Any responses? Yes cool all right Uh, great. Uh, let's go back up here and uh, let's grab a destruction army. Shall we Let's grab some orc war clans Now remember we have to consider the whole book. This isn't just iron jaws the book or or whatever Right. There are four distinct armies in here, which could make this somewhat tricky But but I'll take the lead on this one Okay, okay Because this is obviously a book. I have a deep and abiding love for him. Yep. Yep So iron jaws are Easily read as being a 100% timmy force No, I think that is their timmy spike I think that is a wrong read Right. They are very potent and there's actually quite a lot of optionality to how they get used Um, like when you just how you decide to to they have a very complicated sort of movement ballet you have to do to To get that cruel boys Theoretically like again Talking design intent here, right? Sure. Sure Clearly wants to be This johnny-esque army right that's winning by these weird tricks and decisions and right clever play and like This guy pops out nine inches away from you and these people are untargetable and you know Dirty tricks as a name is is just like the most johnny-ish name for a thing, right? Yeah, the problem is The problem is They gave cruel boys like it's a super johnny thing But it's super random at the same time and johnny can often feel like it's a little out of his control because the tricks are so So unreliable, right? Yeah. So like that I so I would I would I would rank cruel boys as a Johnny-leaning timmy. Uh-huh. Yeah, huh? Yep, and I would uh, I would would argue that iron jaws is timmy-leaning spike Yeah, um, and I think that um My guess is is that the um The big wall would be center. It would be like lower timmy Uh leaning center between johnny and spike because I think that that inherently like it appeals to both spike having the Having all of the the like the the best of of the hyper efficient units While also being johnny because of the list building options And so my gut is to put this directly above Don't forget about your savage orcs because obviously those guys are are those guys are timmy leaning spike Like yeah, it's timmy lean spike a little bit because it is just like body Clogging the board is is another way to to gain hyper efficiency, right? It's my It's my gut would be to place this above slaves to darkness just to the left of fireslip Yep, it's it's exactly where I was going to put it. It was going to top out that triangle. I completely agree Yep, it's it's just right living in this space where it's there's a lot of strong timmy elements to it Right it wants to do big things and roll big stuff and and do big numbers But it has it's its individual components right Will often lean way more to one side of the other because it's not the key is it's not all of these things at once If you're the cruel boy side, it leans way to the left side of the spectrum, you know, if you're Much more like uh big wall, it's going to lean way to the right side of the spectrum big wall is often like Let me harvest the best of all possible worlds. Yeah, which is such a spike thing to do Right And so I I think that's where it sits where it's putting those toes those feelers those tendrils Out into those other spaces and it will slide on almost this kind of an axis Depending on what army you're actually playing out of this book that contains four armies Yeah, right. Yep Okay, cool storm cast eternals Where they live in tough one, right? It's a big force a lot of scrolls you think list building would matter A lot, I mean, but it doesn't it doesn't they they're spot. They're like upper spike leaning timmy like they're in between magikin and doc for me and that whole Uh, yeah, I'd probably put them a little up higher. But yeah, I think that's what I mean Because like because so much of what so much of what storm cast does is just hyper efficient Um best of Like yeah, sure Like that's that's just it That's why I say there's no actual list building challenge here because you just ignore half the units in the book It's famously the book with the worst internal balance Right, you got all these same units one is clearly the best Yeah, it has all these spike type elements in in hot Efficiency, you know and again the points have moved around on stuff, but it doesn't matter like Functionally roll wise regardless of where the points are, you know, these things clearly are well designed into a specific role The fact that you have a unit called annihilators with grand hammers and annihilators or shields is like this These extremely role-defined things that that tells you everything you need right there. Yeah, right and Like yes, there are some strong timmyish elements like dragons are cool and dragons can be pretty random And you'll have that turn where it's like 12 mortal wounds exactly that situation. I talked about earlier right when you spit fire But spike doesn't care about that. He's not fishing for the 12 mortal wounds. He's just looking for a solid Yeah, like a solid 46 and that's a good turn Right, like that's what he's that's what he's running on the map Like is that four to six? Yeah And so like it again like all these it could move around Uh a lot based on what you specifically choose But I think that's the pocket it sits in I agree. Yeah, okay All right, cool Let's talk, uh beasts of chaos Where are beasts going? Man, it's such a challenge. Um My gut is to put beasts um To the left of Moon clan in the window between johnny and I have the exact same instinct. It's it's like right in that that spot. I think they I think they lean a little more timmy Okay, I would agree with that. But the key is is that like you don't get anywhere with And most of the time the plan is Like is outmaneuvering your opponent by putting bodies and creating chaft lines and summoning behind their their lines And like that's how beast is normally winning. Yep It's it's very johnny-ish in play style even though inherently Most of what you're doing is like stompy beasts Yeah, I mean, I think that that like they Again because of some of the efficiency in the past they they a lot of spikes came around and sniffed around this space, right? But I think if you look at the current book It doesn't it doesn't have the feel of a lot of spike type elements, right? The units are fairly fragile. They're fairly unreliable They're not hyper efficient, right or something like that There are some that are strong in roles, but they're still not like the most efficient things You've got to have a pretty solid plan on the table for how you need to use your units It again responds very strongly to you know Uh, it responds very strongly again to Uh to to your skill level, right like the the skill ceiling is very high On beasts when you're using all of your pieces correctly, right? It will it will respond to that very strongly At the same time it is also the army of like wackadoo monsters You know what I mean like gorgons and cygors and chimeras and all this kind of crap, right? It does all exist And you know, it is the army of like making a ton of attacks and having You know these big turns or a bunch of big wild things happen, right? I think they're I think that they could I could see arguments for sliding it more toward johnny You know like maybe down here a little bit, but I think ultimately it does lean It's more toward the upper side of that triangle than the lower side of that triangle I think it is there's a there's a lot of very strong johnny-ish elements to it, right? You know, maybe it should be like down here a little more As opposed to here and I I could see it being somewhere in this liminal space But for now I'll I'll give them a little toe in there just because of the sheer number of like, you know How many how much different elements they they seem to want to be pulling at the timmy space But it's definitely a timmy johnny army, right? Then we just be arguing about degrees Right It is a it is just as Dave said as a johnny. I like that there that this army is challenging to master and I agree with that Right like that's another super johnny trait, right? They want that minute to learn lifetime to master kind of army and that very much feels like what beast is playing in the space of Okay, all right cities. Oh sigmar Where are these bad boys going? Um Man their bench is so deep and their abilities are so Like Trixie like they feel like a johnny army to me But there are also there are elements that call to timmy that are elements that call to spike So i'm actually putting them just left of the salt light book can um because I think ultimately this army is Is I honestly believe it is it is a johnny army Right because of options Sure because they have like when you build a list you have to build power pairs and combinations and who's doing what And yada yada yada. Yep, I agree. Yes. No, it is that thing But it's not pure johnny like it definitely has elements in me and spike, which is what pushes it towards the middle um, and so like my gut is to is to put it um In so with salt light. Yeah, like right next to salt bite to the left I I agree. I think it's a little bit down more I don't think it's quite drifting up into the the the crossover space of either one It's kind of pushed up toward that side of the of the of the johnny space But I think it's still firmly johnny for all the reasons you said there, right deep bench lots of list building complexity lots of decisions you can make lots of things to to you know That you're going to get this chance to express your intelligence and using those individual components. Yeah, I agree. Yeah Right. Yeah It's also a super old book and you know, who knows they could this is one of those things that they could Completely redefine in the new book. Yeah, exactly all right corn Okay, uh, here's an easy answer. You're ready like this one's so simple In its current form It slides a hundred percent over here into johnny Like it needs to be the far corner even farther than sylvaneth It's so far out here All the rest of these armies are like I can't even see you bro. Where are you at? Okay. Yeah. Yeah now I don't know anything about what's in the next book Okay, but my I will bet you dollars to donuts just based on what I saw with nergal and zinch and everything else so far That the next version of this book is going to end up like here It's going to jump way up into the timmy Just towing into johnny space Right. Like I think this book will always have some johnny in it Yeah, right. Yeah, but I but right now it's way too far tilted in this direction like way too far Yep. Yep. Yep. It is the book of it's like clever ballet the book Right. Yeah, and and it'll be really really interesting Intriguing blood blood tie that just the right time just the right time moving in just the right way having just the right Units maintaining just the right bubbles Right. Yeah, the question is How I don't think the question is will the next book go timmy? It's a question of how far into timmy does it go Right. I would agree with that. Yep. That's it So, okay easy peasy lemon squeezy. All right Flesh eater courts well There's not a lot of armies that sit firmly in timmy, but I think flesh eater courts is one of those Yeah, um, uh, I think that but uh, but what I would say is this I don't think it's I think it's more centralized because there are elements that pull it into johnny or pull it towards spike But it is inherently a timmy agreed I agree I I completely agree that I put it like down here somewhere Maybe towing a little bit more toward the spike side because it is a rather simple list like maybe it's over here a little bit ish Yeah, but it's a it's a pretty firmly timmy army. You have Like it it's making some noises towards spike right in these like big Uh, like units that can like do really efficient plays for their points, right? But ultimately It's a very timmy army. It relies a lot on randomness, you know rolling sixes to hit having all these guys. It's it's like Zombies roll out zombies yell at you zombies call you to death zombies fly forward and smash Right, it's it's a very smash army Right It at least in its current form. Okay, cool Uh, Coradron overlords You know, I thought I thought a lot about this. Um Because like so what I'll say is in its current form It is a johnny army. Yes Like fully 100 johnny There are elements that definitely leans Um, it is like the army as it currently is is push all your chips it onto the table and And let's see what happens It it has a number of hyper efficient pieces Um and reliability in its current form like I think about the fly high and stuff like that I think about spell in the bottle Um, and so I put it firmly in johnny just to the right of the silvan Do you think that will maintain I I don't know like what I'll say is this my read so far Is that there's so many knobs that have been turned I don't know what to think of Okay, um, and so I need to spend more time with the the whole picture right in order to assess that Um, but my gut is that it moves more timmy And it's next into carnation Most of the spike elements that were there previously aren't gone Like I feel like from like the things that that were that made ko Enticing to spike players are just simply not there in the new um, and so And I don't know in actually like a lot of the johnny thing away from as well like uh a lot of the like ballet dancing movement fly high stuff Like it's it's simply not as Um, it's not as mobile in the new incarnation It's not as like you can fly high if you issue a command ability to one sky vessel and And and it moves actually towards upping all of the numbers So saves go saves went down In like all the ships are three ups now from again from leaks um on what's app Like all like in rob's video that I talked about that he leaked the whole book Like all the saves go to three up and the Um and a bunch of the tacks all go up And so like it just it it ends up coming off way more timmy than we've ever seen the book um And so yeah, I'm like I need again. I need to digest it more but it my gut is that it stays It moves into more of a hybrid johnny timmy in the new engine okay Talk about ogre mothribes Uh, where the big boy is going? Where the where the biggest of the big going here? I guess they're not the biggest but they're you know, they're big Um, I mean, they're the epitome of timmy spike to me You think they just sit like super firmly in that space? I do I do they hit hard. They are reliable They have the buffs that you want them to have like the higher movement when they're not in combat um They have a fairly deep ish bench um For like for from a roll standpoint Does that make sense? So not from a number of units not like storm cast from a deep bench, but just simply like They often have the things that they need um In the types of roles that they need um In their list building and so my gut is to put it in more of a timmy spike space I actually agree with that. I think they sit pretty firmly here towards like kind of the top ish of the timmy spike space, right? Yeah, more towards timmy more toward timmy Yep, but I think that's exactly where they are. Yep No, I agree. I mean big monsters big charges You have the chance to get your Your like your impact hits going to the moon and back the the five tyrant list we looked at You know, they they want to live in this space, right? But it's also doing a lot of pretty good stuff with with some of the units now There's some straight trash in here like johnny doesn't pull a lot of fun out of list building these It's definitely on the opposite side from them. Like it's get this get this away from me, right? So, yeah, I completely agree with your read. Okay Seraphon. Oh good god Uh, who knows what we'll have in summer, but as of as of right now, I mean I can shortcut this one They're spiky. They're spiky johnny Yeah Yeah Like that's they're in this space right over here in the crossover next disease like they're the next Logical step over into the spike side, but they still have plenty of johnny in there. There's a million choices to make Right, the problem is they're just all efficient. They're just all good You have to make a million good choices, right? Which which one of the crazy Thousand buffs that you have access to are you going to use this time? They're all good. They're all really powerful They all do everything you want to do as spike, right? But you it's got this strong johnny infusion If you got to know when to do this then this then this then this then this then this and so on and so forth, right? It's just the overall It's the overall efficiency of it is so stupidly high Right and and has been for such a long time in their incarnation Right So I will be very interested to see where that new book goes very interested Agreed Okay cool uh Ocear bone reapers OBR these guys live This is a tough one This is a toughy But I I have a vote Are you ready go ahead and tell me what you think this is the this is the spike book It's the spike book Okay Now we can argue about how well it succeeds in that role All right, sure. Yeah, but I think one of the reasons That this book sees so little play Is because it is a spike book that is very hard to win games with right now Let me let me see if I can justify this a little deeper Some armies like Oric and oryx or ogres Have been varying levels of good or bad At various points in their history like your chances of going 5-0 Have varied quite dramatically with those two books Yeah Yet their meta representation always remained pretty high Why? Because timmy was playing them And timmy's goal wasn't to go 5-0 Right. It was to have a fun time with his army. He enjoyed right Yeah, OBR Is a spike designed books Right. It's a spike designed book. It wants to have efficient role based like it's this strict military march Everything goes and steps and Like yeah, sickness at catacross is like the spike. Yes. He's he your your iconic leader is spike given form in the mortal realms Yeah, yeah, right So the reason Ozzy arc bone reapers meta percentage dropped to like darn near zero Right is because actually fulfilling the vision of what it's supposed to exactly It's a spike book that can't actually win games. So there's just no players for that Yeah Right The the venn diagram becomes near zero the bubbles almost stop touching That's why it dropped to basically nobody playing this book Ogres could be good ogres could be bad. There's going to be like three percent of people playing ogres Yeah, yeah Same with suns same with yeah, exactly like this kind of stuff will just keep being out there, right Because timmy will keep this thing afloat It's the same with sylvaneth sylvaneth's another good example living on the johnny side, right? Like sylvaneth have been straight trashed through a lot of their existence But there's those diehards. They're just gonna like keep trying to like no they can outthink it No, I I will get this ruble goldberg machine to work right Right exactly Yeah, okay. All right cool Skaven current Skaven um Like I would I would put him in the johnny spy johnny Johnny timmy space I think It's tough, right? Yeah, I think that I would put I put him still firmly in the johnny space But I would I would migrate him actually into that into the triangle into the the upper triangle In moving into timmy just because I think that there's enough Of timmy in there or like I think about the plague monks. I think about um I think about the Yeah, I don't know It's tough, right? It's okay. Here's let me give you my take on it I think they slit sit just slightly to the left of s2d Okay, okay in other words like pushing a little more this way And let me see if I can defend that from a list building perspective Yeah, they are Like very johnny ish from an execution perspective. They are very johnny ish From a things that are going to happen during the game that people love. They are very timmy ish Yeah, yeah, like they will have these big random massive payoffs Right, but there are some elements to them that are a little spiky So it's the lowest definitely the lowest on the thing like it's mostly a johnny timmy book with like some strong spike elements Right storm fiends sacrificial chaff like hyper efficient chaff Right these kinds of like reliable buffs at the same time like there are super reliable buffs that don't risk anything That spike can get into yeah So like more and more work power or Skaven brew or whatever stuff like that, right? Um, you can you have like you can just straight up become immune to all battle shock Like these are the kind of things. Oh jeez. Oh piece. These are the kind of things that spike really likes Right gutter runners lean that way very much like they're a very, you know predictable sort of unit So it's playing in all three spaces, but for me it's like a 40 40 20 Does that make sense? Yeah, it's not as perfectly balanced As as s2d is Yeah, right. Yeah, they're they're over more toward the johnny timmy space Yeah Okay All right last and certainly least slanesh Another thing that's about to have a new book. So so we'll see where it goes. So this is a book for no one go ahead Go. No, you're right. No, and that's what I was about to say So right now my gut is that it The slanesh book should be a spike book Yep Uh, winning for losing right like out of pain and depravity um Like pulling the victory right here ready. There should be a johnny spike book. Yes. It should be a johnny spike book, right? Um But actually I think it's only a timmy book And what I mean by that is is that like it's um it is It's only rewarding like the only people who are winning are playing it like johnny So here's the funny thing I think it's supposed to be a spike book the only people who are winning with it are playing it like johnny Playing it not how it's designed to be played And then but I think ultimately what it's the type of behavior incentivizes Timmy Right. Yep, which are these certain experience like not playing to win but playing to experience the thing Yeah, sure, right and so it's not actually like doing it's not It doesn't firmly sit in any one space And it's not balanced like slaves to darkness and that it's actually disparate in all three so that no one is ever satisfied Right. It's whatever the the opposite of s2d is right, right, right? I I agree with you on all counts Yeah, I think I think you nailed it exactly Right. It has no actual plan coherency feeling like it's written like a It it it should be spike, but it like it wins Like johnny sometimes, but it but at the same time like the the rules itself seem to want to act like timmy Like the people who are what is going on here? The the people who are playing it are timmy The people who are winning with it are johnny's But it should be more spike. Yeah My honest answer is it just it Yeah, and quister says it's on the back of the diagram behind s2d Like whatever the dark mirror of that is that just it's not good at all these things It just fails at all these things, right? What what kid it's it's amazing in its ability to be bad at all of these simultaneously It's incredible Right And I think right now in its incarnation It's probably sitting here tucked under the table in like this johnny spike space Like way down trailing off the bottom Right just actually for no one like it's it's mostly off the table Right, right and it just it just doesn't have an actual home um, I but like it's I will be very interested to see where this book goes very interested Yeah, yeah, it's interesting because Like the people who are playing it and I think this people who are playing it Aren't the johnny spikes the people are playing it are the timmies that are wanting the experience And they're having a miserable time and they're having a miserable time because it's not a timby book It's a johnny spike, but yeah There are people like me where the appreciation profile for all the models and everything that it seemed like its Story and theme pull you in and then you play it and you're like, oh god. This is terrible Yeah, this is a terrible experience Yeah Yep Um, so yeah, I will be very interested to see where this goes. We'll come back to this again next year And and and like let me just say that like a piece of this The keeper of secrets is inherently a timmy model that is not timmy ish, right Right. Yeah Yeah So there you go Well, that's rough sidetracked, but don't get just don't get don't feel bad. There's a new book There are many armies out there if this is not one if that one doesn't work for you It's okay. You can get other armies too. There's a new book on the horizon We we have full faith that a new slanesh book is coming So don't don't get disheartened if you don't have a good time But I hope you have an excellent time and the army does well for you Um, but there you go Okay All right, so there we go. That's it. We've we've placed them all tom. We did it Mission accomplished So what do you think did we get anything wrong drop it down below tell us I've seen a lot of great chats. Thank you everybody. Hey Everyone if you didn't hit like yet, you should do that. It's it's great and fun Please hit like it helps other people find the show subscribe if you haven't already do all those fun things Uh, don't forget if you want to support the show. There is a merch store down below There's also a patreon focused on hobby and review and feedback Taking your next step on your hobby journey Uh, so you can do that in all those ways, but just hitting the buttons Which is really fun for you and great for us. So clicking is great too Uh, but tom, thank you so much as always brother much appreciated Uh, and for all of you out there, we thank you so much for watching as always