 just right despite um you know chatting and emailing and doing all kinds of stuff but I can get on with you know with Facebook you can sign in with Facebook I don't I don't ever want to link my accounts I will always use my yeah at my email address and a password but that was very weird so I'm I'm don't don't call me paranoid just because yeah just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean nobody's chasing you exactly um speaking of that I happen to watch just as we're chatting um because I was up in the middle of the night remember the last Warren Beatty movie uh Bulworth yes vaguely I watched it last night in the middle of the night and it's it's very prophetic and really interesting that um that that was his swan song in terms of movie making it's 25 years ago and it's about a presidential candidate blah blah blah right well it's about a senatorial candidate in California who um whose brain gets scrambled and he adopts kind of a a bit of a rapper persona and he just starts telling the truth about the about politics and about you know all the shenanigans that go on and and that was his campaign and all of a sudden he was extremely popular mm-hmm yep sort of a combination of McCain and Donald Trump yep and Vladimir Zelensky good point yeah who actually ran that plot straight to the presidency so well but wait but uh Bulworth was telling the truth I don't know that Mr Trump is quite doing that well the appearance of straight shooting is always yeah so what's what's really weird is that mixed into Trump's bullshit is some truth that nobody else will say so Trump is the only politician I know only major one who said that bush junior took us into the wrong war in Iraq and and he criticized him for that and it's like no republican and no democrat particularly will do that I thought that was like very interesting because the the problem with abusive relationships is that it's it's it's this it's like there's an attractive part and there's the horrible part and they're mixed together and and sometimes they're hard to disambiguate and in Trump's case I don't think the hand is the bigger propaganda and disinformation work best when at least 50 of what's being said is true or at least some people a lot of people believe it's true I mean that's it's like derivatives in the global financial crisis they they basically took a bunch of good mortgages and then increasingly turned up the volume on the crap mortgages they poured into them until the whole system came down yeah and then the government came in and bailed out and put patches on everything because nobody wanted it to completely fall apart on their watch even though the foundation was not there well let's be clear the government came in and patched it up means that we the taxpayers sent more money to the folks who are holding the reins right that is known as the Greenspan put yeah uh-huh we got a lot of money back actually as I recall I mean I think the investment was actually a lot of the banks that we bailed out ended up giving the US government a pretty good return I don't know what the total balance sheet was but there there were a number of fire sales where the US and the Federal Reserve came in and they did they did get paid back it would be interesting to see the ROI on that yeah I mean it's hard to know what you count you know which part of it do you count and I do I do know one thing the COVID crisis generated like half a trillion dollars in loans most of which went to people who didn't need them they were forgivable loans and somehow they all got forgiven but it was funny the people who were who needed it most of course couldn't get it so what are the things that are in people's hearts and minds today that we might choose as a topic to head into we don't need to talk about corruption in government or other kinds of things like that any any offers Mike maybe it's just because I have computer security on my mind but I think it was Newsweek that had a really good article on how the Chinese really probably are going to have their chips and software in almost everything including our critical infrastructure and whether there's anything we can do about it I mean it's clear that the US has taken advantage of this for at least 10 or 25 at least 20 or 25 years clearly Microsoft and other tools were being used by foreign governments and we know how to compromise those and in some cases that stories have come out but I just this is maybe this may not be the crowd to worry about it but this is chess it's a fundamental problem the the hardware that the whole digital economy and the whole economy is based on has things that have bugs that are being exploited and I don't know I know what we're doing is not working I don't know if there is a solution but maybe I'm the only one I mean I I sometimes have to you know stop thinking about global warming and find another crisis to deal with and I'm not sure this is the crowd that has enough sort of background or depth or or focus on on the cybersecurity issue it it it is important but I don't see any nodding heads so yeah um Doug go ahead okay it's not a topic but it's something that I want to say so I'm going to say it anyway I think it's almost mandatory that everybody read Gibbons decline and fall of the Roman Empire the detail about how people react to decline is amazing and it's also just really interesting to read and Rome was a much more complicated society than we get taught the the key takeaway for me in the third that I've read so far is that when there's nothing for people to do to improve the situation they fall back on power struggles that lead to assassinations and local mafia is everywhere and I think that's a warning to us and the book is just fabulous it just ought to be part of everybody's education and for everybody who wants to learn to write sentences that are a page long it's like the tutorial yeah but they're they're great sentences yeah um so interesting thank you and and there's an audio version that's 136 hours but it's not intimidating because every piece of it is worth listening to it doesn't matter where you come in and it's in latin but that's never a problem any who has read uh history of the decline and fall of the Roman Empire anybody Doug has Doug is going back in for the reread none of the rest of us have read it has I've read I've read the highlights I mean it's certainly the cliff notes no not the cliff notes there's actually a well organized hundred page highlights it's it was a good thing to hit it but the highlights miss it pushes to the order of events this happened and then that happened the original is great because it's the texture of how people reacted and felt with each other uh it reads much more like a novel but the the detail is very refreshing what strikes me a lot when thinking about history or reading some histories is that you look back at any stretch of history and some empires last a long time some are pretty short but any like 10-year stretch has all the intrigue and back-sabbing and soap operas of of every other decade in in human history it's like there is texture everywhere and sometimes it's recorded and sometimes we lose it and we don't know what happened and it's just like there's just this big bank of fog but there's there's there's intrigue and politics all the time in most places I think and and humans tend to be humans a lot so the topic could be how do cultures decline we could head toward that I've got another funny issue and this is not the right group but most of the geopolitics that we read about focuses on the big powers right US China European Union sometimes we talk about Japan but more and more small little countries can do crazy stuff both good stuff and bad stuff and so again I this group may not care or may not have good examples but any thought on what the new order will be as we determine how to get people in every country working together I I've actually been toying with the idea of writing to the Secretary General of the UN I think I mentioned this they're requesting visions ideas on visions for the UN they're going to have a summit for the future next next year and this is actually driving some serious talk about how would you rearrange the United Nations so my crazy headline would be United Nations question mark no United people yes and so create a way to actually give individuals so that the UN would not be in the business of empowering governments and and being stalemated all the time because they can't get 193 countries to agree but instead somehow it's a promoter of decentralized people power but anyway another crazy idea I'm I actually like that idea because Mike as you were talking earlier about fear of China you know being you know interspersed in technology my immediate thought in response to that was we need more global governance and not and not reliance on nation state organization which doesn't seem to be working in this era of global challenges so I think you're you're on to something right now in terms of a reorganization of you know how we govern the planet and and and if you think about the the latest votes on abortion in various states in the US when the people you know you know were victorious over what the politicians wanted to do because they felt some fundamental right was taken away so I think you're you're you're you're pushing in the right direction and when you say you know UN I say do something you know and and and they can't they can't do something because the original organization hands are tied I mean think about this Russia invades another country and they're still on the security council with veto power it's nuts it's it's absolutely nuts but the idea of leading it up to people is a is a is a great idea Gil has kindly had his hand up for a bit right United Nations is real important in ways that we that Americans don't understand you know there's an anti-un current in this country that blinds us to how significant it is in the rest of the world and how how seriously the rest of the world takes it's like go for it Jerry on the idea of talking about how civilizations decline two thoughts one is well yeah I guess two one is that it'd be interesting to talk about how they emerge or arise also because there's displacement involved in the decline but I would suggest that rather than us just having a free-for-all conversation about that that we do some homework before having that kind of conversation and it might be that we identify you know a half a dozen works like Gibbons and others that are salient and each of us do each of us volunteer to do a very quick digest of each of them and we come back and do a little five minute university version of 30 minutes of briefing of these half a dozen works that we've read and then start to discuss um that sounds like a good approach Kiel also uh Pete led a book club for multiple weeks about the dawn of everything uh Graeber and Wengrove's book which has a lot of information on this topic there are probably other people who've read uh Jerry Diamond and others on on the topic so that so maybe what we do is we set this up for two weeks from now and we say let's all do some homework is that sound reasonable yeah and I've just been reading Meg Wheatley's I think it's her last latest book of who do we choose to be which has a section that does a summary of a of a bunch of different civilization decline theories looking for the patterns that repeat um and um you know it's it's a sobering read because some of it sounds very familiar to now thanks I like I like your suggestion a lot um my small riff on this trope is something I call big G versus little G uh which is governments versus governance and I'm a big fan of governance and I'm just not a huge fan of governments I think that governments really mess things up and as soon as you get enough power to have a standing army and do a bunch of other stuff then you can then you can perpetuate all kinds of things on your neighbors and things go downhill from there um so I don't know I I'm a skeptic I like I like maybe for our um proposed call in a couple weeks not just to talk about the rise and fall of empires but this this question about what would you do about the united nations how would you rethink the UN is a really interesting question to me like what and it doesn't need to be focused on the united nations but um is there such a thing as global governance might there be something like that could be part of the mix of our question Doug yeah another way to frame what the question might be is the following who will do what and when will they do it what do you mean by that well uh in this miasma that we're in when nobody can act is somebody finally gonna act who are they and what will they do the thing that triggered my thoughts about this topic was a new book called outlaw ocean and it's all about the lawless zone that starts 200 miles off most countries a lot of it is about the brutality uh and slavery on a lot of fishing vessels particularly Chinese fishing vessels but the one that the chapter that caught my attention was about the republic of sea land how many people know about the republic of sea land it was a anti aircraft gunning platform built in the middle of the english channel and critically it was seven miles offshore and in the 60s when your jurisdiction reached only three miles offshore some creative brit went out there and claimed this rusty old platform from the 1940s as his property and his country and he gave this country to his wife as a present and then set up a pirate radio station and for more than 50 years it's been this mythological pseudo country that has hosted pornography on servers it's handed out bogus passports often to very unscrupulous people or in some cases people have sold these bogus passports to people who didn't realize sea land was not a country but this whole idea that you know you can sort of create a country if you wish and and the brits have had a hard time knowing what to do with this thing it's a very funny movie called the boat that rocked which was uh renamed as pirate radio here because we didn't know much about the history of british pirate radio it's got philippe seamer hofman bill nai is a crazy ass person in it kenith branna it's a bunch of bunch of people it's very funny and worth worth a viewing and then there's a whole question of micro nations of which there are many there are sort of disputed territories there's a lot of interesting things there and then back a little earlier to when small countries do interesting things my favorite things i point to are portugal which illegalized drugs back some 20 years ago and has done really interesting work around that and changed their statistics dramatically estonia which regained its nationhood after the fall of the iron curtain and then decided to go full electronic and has a pay basically paperless government that it's also marketing to other countries as x-road i think uh and and other things and i think that there's there's really spots of brilliance around the world and how we how we align ourselves up to do things so i'm i'm eager to collect up stories like that as well um and then there's slavery sorry i'm just looking at the chat um all too sobering and and once you're in international waters and you've got somebody you've taken somebody's passport away or whatever their only hope is to jump ship when they're near a port or something like that and cross their fingers i don't know it's it's terrible it's just terrible so uh what topic would we like to talk about today maybe somebody has a happy topic to talk about yes well and that that would not be out of our reach i was thinking of proposing that we talk about i mean i i talk about the mental health crisis among the 12 year old to 25 year old cohort that seems cheerful well flip it around and ask the question you know what what joyful things are people in that age group doing some of it as a counter to the depression but i have too many relatives who seem to just be in a constant state of anxiety and and and because they're much more frank about it they they they're they're happy to talk to perspective employers about the medications they're on and it's it's quite fascinating um but it does the numbers are huge i i've seen everywhere from you know 20 to 35 percent of our high school students are diagnosed as having anxiety or depression or something at some point so that doesn't seem like too happy a topic well as i say let's look at the 23rds who aren't and what they are doing is pretty incredible i mean you have these kids organizing startups and music jerry so let me so here hold on one one second steward i'll pass it back to you in a second but i would love a call and this would probably take a little homework or something from us as well but um lizzie nelson helped us learn about dftba and this is the uh gang sign for nerd fighters uh dftba means don't forget to be awesome there are there are lots of very young people who are doing astonishing stuff in the world and learning things and building community and so forth i would love to know more about where they are what they're doing and how how those like communities are are working and whether they're optimistic or pessimistic or whatever so that that might be another place and we could have a couple of people who know come in and join us as guests uh mike has frozen on my screen but everybody else is moving so i think it's not me it might be mike and i'm bummed because i was gonna see what mike had to say about that well no i'm i'm audible not seeable um i'm not quite sure why this is happening but um yeah it would be fun to kind of do a revisit um you know i think when lizzie met with you in the for the first time it was uh more than 10 years ago and uh there were there were some pretty exciting things that were going on hank green and his brother um we're doing hank is on green the blonde brothers yep and um yeah they had a lot of good wholesome books as well that you know that were creating a real following heavy i went with her to a hotel ballroom here in washington and 800 kids junior high in high school were sitting there waiting to get their books signed that's amazing and then i'm hank and john green are still my heroes they they just do phenomenal stuff stewart i'm sorry i interrupted you go ahead no no worry so i was just gonna um in some ways um was building on on on mike in the sense that if i was coming of age today um i'd probably just want to go back to sleep which is some form of anxiety you know if you're paying attention to the media but but building on that a little bit um um on the death of robbie robertson um i watched a short video that he championed which was um an international rendering of um take the weight off um which he did with entertainers from all around the world and i've been fascinated you know we talk a lot about the need for mass levels of transformation at a human level to as the only way for a foundation to really um shift people into doing things like regenerative uh agriculture how can we use mass media where so many entertainers filmmakers singers are activists in this area and and how might we use that as a as a great fulcrum to wake more and more people up um you know we've done it in the past think about we the world um how can we actually tap into the incredible um power of that medium um you know the antithesis of that being all the the violence uh and depravity uh that is skewed in the media so just just a long winded thought i don't know you know i think there's a topic in there of some kind maybe maybe you heard something jerry so should taylor swiss next tour be the new eras tour and i mean talking about the eras tour for a bit was interesting as well because it is a major cultural phenomenon right happening right this minute uh and she's just just wrapping up the us tour and about to go international she won't be done until next year it's an astonishing thing even if it's just a concert by one singer songwriter it's quite amazing apparently it kept the swedish economy out of recession yep really well they're calling it swiftonomics and it's having a major bump for cities cities love to have uh concerts in their stadiums because she brings a huge economic benefit i don't know what huge is but it's a bump it's a noticeable bump did people notice her her bonus strategy which is what do you mean uh often at the end of tours artists will give their crew you know five or ten thousand dollar bonuses she gave her crew hundred thousand dollar bonuses 50 55 people like you know described as life changing for these folks kind of stunning i was going to go a little bit further in steward and say i i think the media is what's driving the chinese innovation push if you watch chinese media it looks a lot like american media in the early 60s they were they're celebrating their astronauts you know we had cartoons about the Jetsons and the you know the future and it wasn't Futurama it was a very posamistic or that's a very optimistic world and the chinese you know they don't they don't celebrate their basketball players nearly as much as they celebrate their chemists and engineers and it's a conscious decision and they and they obviously are censoring a whole lot of things that uh make the government look bad and make people depressed yeah so give me credit for that new word i just it is kind of what i am i'm optimistic optimistic about the technology and pessimistic about the politicians quick register that yeah um anyone feel that that there are sort of other interesting meanings in the the eras tour and in sort of this there's a bunch of writings about how concerts are back there's another bunch of articles about the economics of it there's a bunch of articles about taylor and her relationship with fans and what's going on there there's a whole comments trail of interesting things being said and it may just be that it's a it's just a big media event um but it might be more and and i'm i'm really interested in the question i guess stewart posed which is like there's a nice long history of artists um generating social events that mattered at least that seem to have mattered and at large scale it looks like farm aid and a bunch of other sorts of things big concerts but at small scale there's a there's an albino singer-songwriter from west africa who wrote songs about social issues in his country i'm forgetting exactly who it was but but his songs became really popular hits and transmitted knowledge there's there's a bunch of didactic songs that get popular so that this doesn't need to be big money money spending events but rather social transmission of ideas as well yeah i mean and i think the question could be um for a discussion you know how do we how do we um leverage that into something positive how do we how do we leverage you know the power of that into something positive today for for for the time that we're in right now one of the really cool things about the blog brothers is that they're all about trying to help their followers do positive things in the world and i kind of wish taylor swift were more like that and because of the power she wields and the connection she has and all of that and she's basically telling the story of her life and relationships and yeah we're in a very relatable way so so she's a kid and she's doing too i think so well yeah but she's still she she's still i think coming of age and you know this is what she's been focused on at some point in time that's going to shift to broader you know focus on the artists that are that are already thinking um in that way you know the um the the folks that you just mentioned the jackson browns of the world who were like you know modern day prophets um in terms of the the messaging in their concerts that's just extraordinary um you know bob dillon did that when he was 14 unfortunately the messaging to to young people is still confused that just was an article coming through this morning where florida is now showing kids videos or movies that are basically climate change denial right so so yeah i mean what do you think for an 80 or 10 year old kid getting a video like this and then listening to multiple perspectives i mean it's a mess right for as long as we are circling with with this misinformation it doesn't go very far and also this goes back a bit to governments and governance but the idea that you can control that everybody gets put into large schools where there's school boards and others who decide what gets shown and not shown and everybody has to hew to a curriculum really rubs me wrong anyway um but it creates the conditions and the situations for the battles we're seeing uh in legislations and school boards in other kinds of places yeah that was the that was one of the most interesting things about the the article the class just mentioned which i put in the listserv this morning is that in the article it actually called uh everyone advocating climate science nazis good lord that's what it did in the vid and in the video in the video yeah uh huh that the nazis are trying to get you i mean this is really absurd when you think about it right this is this is so over the top crazy stuff that's what that's what literally happened in germany in the 1930s now that way these exaggerated extreme comments which are becoming normalized somehow i mean think about 10 years ago to come across a comment like this you would have you know right now it's just here's another one it's really interesting that Putin's claim on launching this latest offensive into Ukraine was denazification and that and that and that calling people that is sort of the altar it's like it's it's the uh it's the atomic weapon of discourse in some sense it's the the godwin rule which is like any conversation eventually degenerates into into citing the nazis um and it's a sign that something has gone wrong it's a sign that the discourse is broken somewhere somehow no just an observation about our discussion we are we are a wonderful microcosm of the poly crisis we keep hopping from one major crisis to another because there's so much shit to wrap to try to wrap your head around and it's almost impossible to do well i had the i had the image moments ago that's funny steward i had the image moments ago of sort of like chinese new year when there's a dragon chasing a pearl as a as a parade and that that pearl is the topic we're sort of looking for in this conversation and we're just like in the dragon doing the thing and i it wasn't unpleasant it was like whoa okay we're sort of weaving and winding our way through things no i wasn't i wasn't saying it was unpleasant i was just saying it's you know here we are talking about the crisis and let's let's throw out the other crisis that so many americans are obsessed with does everybody know what the third most popular movie in america is right now after barbie and oppenheimer no no i think it's called voice of freedom it's about a former fbi agent who was trying to prevent child trafficking and it has themes that look a lot like qanon and the idea that there's child trafficking and pedophilia everywhere it's the third most popular movie the fascinating thing is that all these people who are accusing democrats of promoting pedophilia are overlooking the fact that there's been a long list of republicans who have been convicted not just accused but convicted thrown to jail i should that's the name of the movie because voice of freedom is an american experience episode about civil rights now let's i mean look it up yeah thanks i think you're close yeah i'll put that put a note thank you yeah the one of the biggest don't want a major donor to donald trump just got thrown in jail for being almost as bad as jeffrey epstein i mean these guys i mean there it seems to be a very odd correlation between state republican officials and child pornography is it sound freedom is it sound yeah is it sound it is sound of freedom it is it's about child trafficking but it's it's you know it's a very important topic and yet it's being used as uh as being weaponized yeah and you know biden is failing to protect the borders from child pornographers and nobody's talking about the demand side i mean it has ruined the lives of you know at least tens of thousands of mostly women every year and sometimes maybe hundreds of thousands and it is it's it also feeds the tech clash right um sound of freedom is a drama an over dramatization of operation underground railroad which was a real thing about kind of amateurs who went in to try to break up child sex trafficking rings i think and it has jim caviesl who gets into these kinds of movies a lot uh in the starring role very interesting dug sorry i just notice you've had your hand up okay i'm wondering what is the ethics of talking about positive things when we basically think things are falling apart and there's no out um i think the simple answer is despair doesn't actually help fix anything and gets everybody like really jammed up and broken and then we just have more people win mental health crises to deal with um and second that fixing things can actually be joyful work uh that that that that fixing things is is uplift is positive and can be really really nice that's just my superficial take anybody else want to jump in just to say that you're exactly right jerry optimists live longer um and there's ways of so so Doug my my conundrum my my the facet of your thicket of problems that i see a lot is like omg humans seem to delay acting on things until it's pretty much too late and we're really good at that we avoid avoid avoid nobody wants to do the deep work that that actual dramatic change entails because it's very upset turns over too many things that are set and grooved and working and profitable and whatever um so i keep trying to figure out and that's why the question about what if media stars got involved in this you know could they help what if what if i'm interested in all the what us because i think that if we try a thousand things uh two of them might actively sort of tip enough that humans start to get together to do things i'm interested in the big government versus small g governance question as a different facet on the big thorny hairball of poly crises because if we managed to do small g governance together and solve problems we might actually do things in unison uh sort of collaboratively that lend to solving the larger problem so so every every one of the things that's kind of been coming up is a possible answer none of them seem like an easy answer anyone else ken you have a thought run through your head i think do you not i have many thoughts in my head yes i don't know if this is apocryphal or not but i i once heard this story that you know in the twitter france there's still wooden bridges that have the timbers going lengthwise and so there's spaces between the timbers and people were getting hurt because they were going in you know they were dealing and getting into caught in the in the gap and sports psychologists figured out what they needed to do was aim high look all the way across the bridge and do not look down right and i feel like that's a great metaphor for where we are there's lots of gaps lots of things to fall into and if we look down we're gonna get you're just gonna derail we're gonna go right off the road and be harmed so i'm not saying to ignore the um the issues but we need something positive to focus on we need we need an aspirational future and that's what i i'm struggling with is yes we have a poly crisis metacrisis permacrisis whatever you want to label it all some combination of all those over the venn diagram hits but without an aspirational future without a belief you know i dug it pains me and you say when we're convinced there's no way out i'm not convinced there's no way out i think the way out's gonna be really hard i think it's gonna be tremendous suffering but i still believe that there is a way through and um so what is something that can guide us to keep our vision high enough to not get pulled down what the same time not ignoring the danger and becoming informed by it in ways that allow us to make better assessments about the future because i think what happens is you know we make assessments about the future of it's gonna be x or y or z and that determines the actions we take and we're we're doing that with a terrible lack of information there's no one knows enough to really predict the future it's way too complex so you know we pay attention to certain trends and you know i'm watching all over stones untold history united states which is incredibly depressing the episode on lbj and the vietnam war was horrific to watch to see not just vietnam but what lbj did around the world to all these countries the cia going in and and deposing governments democratically elected governments and then we turned it over united states was the democratic champion of the world bullshit it's amazing to me that we have not been taken in taken down by by the people we've screwed over so how do we balance the fact that yes there are really terrible dark things in human character and we create governance structures that rely on enormous amounts of military might and power we're going to get people going to abuse that is there not another way to organize ourselves because going into the future heavily armed when um when the defense posture is one that is destroying the ecology the life support systems we have that's bucky fuller called the killing rate and even this living rate you know and how do you shift what's where's the leverage points to get people to recognize if we keep pointing guns at each other we're eventually going to pull the triggers what we need to do is start planting gardens to use doug's garden world analogy some of the thoughts in my head thank you ken lots um let's go into silence for just a little bit to process some of where we've been and then our class if you'll bring us out we'll go class then dunk but just wait a little bit i mean the challenge really is to to lift to lift the eyes up now towards the horizon you know is uh can just really describe so well because if you're just looking down then then you stumble um and and kevin actually in last week's meeting framed it really well saying that just look at the action ahead you know just look at the next thing you can do and and don't get disturbed by uh the perceived hopelessness of uh what what uh maybe such an overwhelming task the challenge really is i'm just working on um um with with the with the sailor club trying to to they have all these splendor groups you know the vegans the anti-crazers uh the the water sentinels i mean they're all you know you've all these splendor groups working on um highly technical very narrowly focused issues and there is a complete lack of understanding that all of this is connected you can't change anything that without changing everything you know it's these are systemic uh issues and um and it's amazing how how that throws people into a loop because um what do you mean we have to you know talk about everything it's it's way too much so to to to transition you know to to take through this step and say um there is an outcome here and it takes a lot of little steps to come to this outcome but the outcome is really hopeful positive optimistic positive right if we just focus on soil for example then you restore life because you can't fix the soil if you use chemicals right you can't fix the soil if you use monocorps so you you you can't uh fix the soil if you use pesticides and herbicides and so on and and the outcome will be you know more healthful food clean water and things like that but it's it's it's a real challenge when when when we are so myopic focused on you know what is what is in our sphere of of influence or knowledge and knowing and to just create this bigger picture but then that bigger picture is constantly being sabotaged right i mean like this article we just mentioned about uh Florida showing these crazy you know distorting uh videos there to children um so i i i don't know i mean i'm i'm i'm trying hard to to you know pull us back and look look out and it seems to work i've got in we are going they're sending 30 people to Washington in September and i'm going to give them a big picture overview of what to talk to with members of congress to um to to not get trapped into one bill you know and into one myopic issue but let's talk big picture now the issues that that we're concerned about but i think that's that's just you know have a garden world vision right so to convey that i think you know like the little play that we had in our new book you know and you know no time to follow up on it but you know people are really interested you know in wanting to to create a positive message because then you don't have to argue about climate change you know we can just talk about the soil and the microbes inside the soil it's it's that now it's shifting stories into a positivity um and and an outcome based you know picture big challenge thanks last i'm looking positively towards something we can do together with people that we might disagree with otherwise it makes a lot of sense to me um Stuart then can spend Doug yeah it seems that by the way i'm not trying to look cool i've got some eye infections going on and i've got stuff in my eyes although when i was however look cool in the interim so i'm just saying a little Steve McQueen thank you that's what that's what jennifer said that's what one of the admitting nurses at the hospital said yesterday when i went from my week in injection i said i said i said i'm not trying to look cool and she said you are cool you don't have to try to look cool right which cracked me up no end anyway we have we have created um and and and gil meg will talk about this in her book i don't know if you got there yet we have created these um emerging trends in the world that have led us kind of over the cliff um you know the capital is trend the environmental degradation um trend and and these emergent trends are you know they are on vectors that i think from everything i've heard i don't i don't think we can we can turn around before there is some great level of degradation destruction collapse right so the question is how can those of us and i know so many people here are doing good work in the world whether it is actually work on the ground as claus was doing or or writing um ourselves into into the future um and the question is from my understanding there's no coordinating body looking at all the the different newly emerging trends and trying to put the pieces together um charif abdulla wrote a book in around 1992 called creating a world that works for all and one of the things that i always pull from that is everybody thinks they have the answer when in truth everybody has a little piece of the answer so how can we keep how can we coordinate and keep all these balls bubbling and see which new emergent trends start to bubble up to the surface and create major movements of some kind um that i think is is is is a little bit of the path that we're on the the idea of being positive or negative to me it's just being um positive in the work that you're called to do as an individual um you know we're we all kind of know that we're going to go through some dark times as things get worse maybe in our lifetimes maybe not um so that's all i wanted to say about that mr homer at your own pace with regard to the soil costs um heard michael pollin give a lecture a few years ago here in marina and he's you know he drew the link between world war two and agriculture because the end of world war two you had these huge munitions factories and these big um you know nerve gas factories and it's like hey what are we gonna do we gotta find a um gotta find a way to to make this work in peacetime so munition you know fertilizers uh which came out of out of nerve gases became what we started to apply in billions and billions of tons to the land poisoning it and destroying its its soil viability and munitions um the same thing it's like it just so the war time economy shifted to agriculture think about that we've got a war on agriculture we're using what we learned how to how we learn to destroy people has been applied to the soil that is biggest self terminating experiment i can't think of along with the fact that we've released over 75 000 different chemicals into the environment none of which have been tested for some synergistic effects and only a handful of which have been tested for the effects on on life so we're in the middle of this huge chemical experiment and this this huge war on the soil and and the land and that's the kind of stuff that not many people want to even consider let alone start to think about deeply so part of the challenge of many of the dark aspects are i don't i don't like dark because the light and dark has a very weighted value sense to it darkness can be very fruitful and useful but the the more horrific side of of the polio crisis is that we're not paying attention to the fact that we're doing this to ourselves we think that we're we're actually you know fighting someone else but it's it's us in lawnmower there is no others there's just us there's just whatever we do the planet we do it ourselves so you know what does it look like to shift out of that as a as a worldview and find a worldview where we can create a world together because worlds are created through worldviews so how do we collect we create a world view that says we want to be here for the next 50 million years actually i'd like i'd like 165 million dinosaurs were who is we us humans gill all of us humans in this sense i'm talking about the big we um dinosaurs were around the planet for about 160 570 million years they had brains the size of peas we have these big brains we've been here less than three million years we'll take ourselves out of the picture can we at least plan to live as long as the dinosaurs and if so what does that do to our that long term frame due to our thinking in the short term of how do we create a sustainable viable for shing world where not just humans but the more than human and greater than human world forces as well because if we apply ourselves to that we just might stand a chance i think anything less is going to be failure thank you um i think Doug had his hand up among the girl steward if you if we can go Doug and steward perfect okay it seems to me that talking negatively about the future disempowers some people and become hopeless and don't do anything but talking positively about the future has the same effect on a lot of people because they say oh see it's being handled we don't have to do anything my belief is that shocking hard facts motivate people who are capable of hard action that to become engaged and that the story that we're in which is the temperature is going up and we have no plan on how to stop it going up and as it goes up we're going to have more things like the Maui fire from yesterday so we're in a very complicated conundrum in terms of how to speak because the negative doesn't work the positive doesn't work and what we need is a small number of people who are willing to take the hard facts straight on and deal with them and my view is that all the high probability scenarios lead to trouble we need low probability scenarios that we can believe in and work for but it's in the context of hard facts I believe garden world is the best intermediate solution possible because people have to live in somewhere and eat somewhere and that's what garden world really does is try to put those together into something to work on but if it's weakened by the fact that say oh see we've dealt with that your culture problem solved that we're in trouble we need to keep looking at hard facts if I can interrupt for a second just to follow Doug so I track extreme weather events in my brain of course I've got climate change will increase extreme weather events and hopefully concern excuse me and then I have a thought well when will extreme climate events convince voters to act for example and then every year so here's the year 2023 and here's extreme weather events of this year many records broken and there were so many records broken that I created another thought called 2023 is looking more extreme than usual tipping soon and July was the world's hottest month and uncharted territory past the tipping point this century and tarctic sea ice levels etc etc etc I'm not noticing this is just me I'm not noticing uh the people who have their hands on the levers of power making any particularly different decisions based on these kinds of things that seem really shocking and there's there's a there's an abundance of good writing on the topic a bunch of there's an abundance of people who are like hey everybody trying to shape civilization by its lapels giving us really scary information so so Doug what level of scary works for whom delivered in what method do you think well I think we should just take the hard facts that we can and look at the logic I mean if temperature is going up because CO2 is still going up and there's no plan to cut it no actual plan that's operational then we're in deep trouble and what it should do is get our imagination going so here's a species that sucked itself into a bad place trying to live off of carbon that's under the ground what the fuck do we do to get out of this this is really difficult we need a different form of government we need different forms of technology different ways of relating to the land uh it's a problem of imagination and the the adequate tough imagination will only get release if we face the hardest facts that that seem to be in the face of us um thank you let's go Stuart Gill then come back into this issue I think and I'll remind me to talk about uh Freeman Dyson when we come back so yeah and the simple hard fact is that where we are is not working it's just not working at so many different you know places you know Doug like you I you call it garden world I call it uh my heaven on earth uh international political party kind of like workers of the world unite who wants to see heaven on earth um not in your lifetime but think about you know seven seven generations out how can we reorganize and and I love the way you said it a species that's boxed itself into a corner just a little aside Ken as you were talking before about you know using chemicals from from wartime one of the drugs that I'm actually taking anti-cancer drugs is called Revlimid and essentially what it is anybody remember thalidomide um it's it's thalidomide repurposed because there is there is you know if you're if you're a woman capable of being pregnant don't take this drug if you're a guy having relationships with a woman of childbearing age um you can't do that um so it's an interesting phenomenon in terms of repurposing things invented in in war but I don't want to end that on that note optimistic and pessimistic it's all quite cyclical so what looks really bad today could look really different or good tomorrow it's and you know what goes down comes up what goes up comes down um how can we we create a little bit of a of a different trend um today in terms of moving onto the upcycle from the from the place at the bottom of the trough um or heading to the bottom of the trough we haven't gotten there yet how can we how can we move it into something that's why when I when I try to wrap my arms around this and and think about actions that are being taken I think about um parallel process and the sense of um are we planning to avoid the collapse the full and complete connex that the level of dystopia um whatever that might look like or are we planning for something after the collapse to rebuild um the species um thank you thank you that's our killer gill gill the floor is yours I know I'm pausing okay good oh thank you following the protocol chair very kind of you doing my best um this is a challenging conversation to follow it's very hippity hoppity um it's about a couple of thoughts um Stuart you're you're you're opening statement about I don't have your exact words we really thought that's the fact it's not a fact it's an assessment it's an interpretation of data that you're turning into you know into a statement but that's not a fact and we need to be really clear on what are facts and what are not um Doug I completely agree with you that we have to face reality and that we have to look at the hard facts and that's really critical to you know to orienting people to what we face and what we need to do um you know if you're the pilot of an airliner and you lose them and you lose an engine you can't pretend you haven't lost the engine but when you say there's no plan which you say pretty regularly I want to invite you to say something that might be more accurate which is that there's no plan being implemented effectively at the scale that we need we have lots of plans we know what to do the science is clear the strategies are clear the technologies are clear a lot is in motion none of it is adequate none of it's an adequate scale or penetration uh and the opposition to doing sensible things is huge and extremely well funded but you know but we don't have a plan I think is not the most powerful message that you're trying to offer um so my suggestion to you you said also we need a small group that will do what's necessary so it sounds like you have a plan so we have to know what that is um I don't know any plan that has a small group solving the poly crisis so maybe there's that to talk about but on the optimism pessimism thing it's like you know we need realism we need to face what's so um we uh you know people are motivated in different ways some people motivated by fear and resentment and anger and some are motivated by hope and possibility and ambition in my experience the bad news is never enough some sense of what could be different of what could be of what it's worth investing in and risking for seems to be a necessary part of the mix and we can you know we can all of us roll out all you know examples in both sides from from history to support that but that's how I tend to see it Doug you also talked about a problem of imagination and that's exactly where I think a lot of people have been talking about is imagining the world we want like why couldn't it be that way oh look here's examples small scale in different places of where it is kind of like that way uh existence is proof of the possible if it's there maybe it could be in more places and so imagination I think is as important as facing the the so-called hard facts at least for me in the way that I orient in the game thank you thanks y'all I'm gonna pause for a moment before I think so this is a swirl of a conversation on lots of different things and it feels like it's kind of a meat and potatoes topic for Gil for Klaus for Doug like we're sort of in the heart of what you care about really deeply and has spent a lot of your life energy working on and I love that and I wish we had simpler things I just want to reflect that I talked to Esther last week which interrupted my presence on our call it was really interesting because that got me interested in her data bit and I over the last couple days I watched a couple clips of Freeman Dyson being interviewed about a bunch of different topics which were really interesting and I got to meet him because he would regularly attend PC forum and he would be there you know a little before and around and so forth and he's just a in he's a controversial and elegant thinker and and he has been seen as a climate denialist because he doesn't agree with all of the arguments that people are making around what to what to measure what to do and I think one of his critiques is about co2 and I'm not sure and and I think you get what you measure and I'm I'm interested in this because of the solutions and Gil you just said that the solutions are very clear and I'm not so clear that they're really clear I think they're plentiful I think there are there are plenty of abundant plans for what to do not that much agreement necessarily on which which priorities and what where and the focus on co2 which has risen above most other things that we might do has led to things like cap and trade and carbon credit markets and basically the capital capitalismization of a gigantic social ecological problem that hasn't really worked I would say that that buying carbon credits or that kind of thing is like a head fake that makes people think like something is happening but I don't know that it's actually contributed in any way toward fixing things in the world and a focus on soil fertility for example like soil organic matter and I'm an amateur saying hey that would be an interesting measure that you could actually sort of measure with satellites and with a probe of some sort would be very different from that and might lead to actually functional improvements in community health all the way up to atmospheric conditions I don't know but I think I think what we measure and what measures we we raise as you know it's like net promoter score became this simple metric for company viability and good and it's the answer to one question which is would you recommend this product or service to a friend and that that is nps and that is the result of a bunch of other research on Frederick Reich held at Bain did a bunch of research on on churn all of this kind of led to nps which was our western minds attempt to let's boil everything down to one number we can score on and it's not that helpful and I hate getting the nps surveys because I'm like hey I want to tell you I want to speak to you and tell you that your user experience was miserable I just I just flew to Geneva and back on condor and the moment April was like oh you're flying on condor her brows furrowed and I'm like yeah it was the best price for what I was looking for and the best schedule and it turns out that the flights were just fine the user experience before after and around it was miserable was like dumb like they like it intentionally forgotten how to do customer service and how to treat people well and how to remove doubt and all that kind of things so I'm bumping several layers around but I'm concerned about how we focus on what to do and my faith is in distributed efforts and distributed overlapping resonant plans or goals that actually together aggregate up into larger movements of behavior and outcomes and I'm a and I think that's entirely doable and I don't know that we're going to end up converging on the one best plan that's going to solve this problem and we're all going to just fix it and do that same thing and I fear that when that when single plans show up in single metrics everybody tries to game the system I've forgotten there's there's some kind of principle of everybody tries to game the system there's a theorem about that anyway that's my my general thought on that with that I will pass to Klaus I hope he mistake it yeah I agree there is no such thing as one best plan but I do believe there is such thing as a one best process and and the process that that that I that I think will prevail is to decentralize and localize and and so and the reason I'm saying this is that each community has unique conditions now you have I mean in my food world you have unique soils you have unique climates access to water and but so far everyone wants to ignore social economics you can't change the thing I'm saying without addressing the socioeconomic impacts of these changes right and those are different in Eugene Oregon than they're in Bend Oregon in Kansas now because you're dealing with different population groups different realities people mixes and what have you and so and so that's really that's really the important part now I'm actually having a networking meeting later today where the kids to ground group in the regenerate America have no issues we need to focus on farmers markets and on csa's to boost local food systems and I'm poking a hole into this bubble because farmers markets and csa's constitute three percent of market so what are you going to do double it you know it's just nonsense it can't scale so in order to scale change you have to engage the business sector that means you have to get to go to your local broker store and Walmart store and say can you help us to launch these farmers we need to source local right can you help us spawn some of these small businesses that you have so successfully destroyed over the last decades so the day they said there is a change where companies now that want to succeed long term have to find ways to stay global but act local so to speak they have to change their their process for the aggregation practices their sourcing practices their processing practices recipes menus in order to accommodate local and regional you know bio region kind of idiosyncrasies that just need to be strengthened and put in place so I think that and when people act local and in their own interest you know then they hold each other accountable you know because that's within our own sphere of what we what we did 150 people or so groups that we can that we can function within right so so so that's that's the only thing I can think of is to regionalize no decentralize but keep macro structures on top of that because there's no there's no sense decentralizing tools and you know it support systems and all of this that should stay but then but then be made available in modular form to a community to a region so they can customize it thanks cost I think that that gets us something really important and I would build on that and say that that in addition to working locally we have to pay attention to the people who are local and include those whose voices have been traditionally marginalized women people of color poor people because if we're going to build a system that works it can't be talked down it's got to emerge out of a collective process and you know in this book community the structure belonging peter blocks says look there's all kinds of amazingly great processes out there that can bring people together who are have diverse and and sometimes opposing positions and through skillful facilitation they can actually arrive at an agreed upon plan but for the most part these processes are closely held by you know a cadre of facilitators who are trying to make money off them and they're not actually sharing them very widely so I think another piece of the puzzle is we need really good local facilitation to bring together people to talk about tough issues and do it in a structured way where they can begin to make much better decisions because we resort to you know we're in pain we didn't make a decision let's just jump this this person has something okay we'll go with that we're going to impose it from top down that doesn't work at all um not was it last month Gil we did no two months ago we Gil and I host this living between worlds call on the third Wednesday of each month which is next Wednesday please join us on noon noon noon to 1 30 and the topic was what if you had to change what if you know you didn't want to what you had to change and we gave the example of World War II where you know the auto industry came to FBR after Pearl Harbor and said you know here's our plan to retool over the next few months and FDR said no today you start today there is no waiting we changed today and we reoriented the entire economy of the United States to war time economy now at the time that wasn't hard to do because of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor so there wasn't this huge industry saying no the attack was staged it didn't really happen it's not really going on it wasn't as big to the Nile industry we have to confront that we've got the Nile industry that says your problems aren't that bad but there there are precedents for when economies have shifted mostly due to war i'm reading a book right now on on how economists invented austerity to regain control after World War I after the Great War in Italy and Britain where thanks to the fact that they tried laser fair capitalism to to use the invisible hand of the market to create the best outcomes but it became far more profitable for ship owners to sell British ships to competitors and pocket the money than to take care of their country so we have to again remember how people operate when you're in a capitalist system with a profit motive the profit motive feeds human greed and human greed is a terrible way to organize your society just we're looking at that right now so can we have some different ways of of doing this so i don't know i'm going with this just i want to mention you know when it comes to change and you and i are talking about this a lot of people talk about you need a theory of change we only have a theory of change change happens in lots of different ways and lots you know it's local everywhere but change does happen and there are tipping points and there are things that will move people and motivate them i don't think it's necessarily facts um you know my father used to say don't confuse me with the facts my mind's made up george laycock has a whole book on this you know of what happens when your facts conflict conflict with my my frame but if you can convince people this goes to steven cubby's you know people don't want to know how much you care until they know you care right they don't know they don't know how much you know they want they care about do you care about them so we've got to demonstrate care for the people who've been marginalized that's going to bring about an enormous influx of creativity and i would love to see mike maybe you can you know exercise something in washington to help get more funding for large-scale public participation in really naughty problems where good facilitation is is the norm and it's it's paid for and it it can start to spread out because i don't think any group of experts is going to come up with what's necessary there are all kinds of plans they've been doing that for years but uh thanks mike maybe 36 will be the the the key um so you know we we've got to uh we've got to change our approach and be much more willing to listen to people who we think um are not necessarily those who have the answers because the answers are going to come from multiple places i heard michael mead read second coming and i said if the if the if the center won't hold you know where do you look he says look to the margins the margins is where all the creativity is we need the margins will come into the center when the center falls apart which margin will it be is the question end of ramp thank you well the rent i think is a perfect um high end and bridge for the organizational structure the class articulated um and the idea of massive worldview shift how can we move the mindset of huge segments of the population out of the capitalist mindset and into something different it's a conundrum i i think the best you know pointing towards it is what happens in in wartime when everyone is faced with the same kind of um potential calamity um and i and i've said a number of times on this call you know there hasn't been enough pain on behalf of enough people yet to actually create a tipping point at which more and more and more and more and more people are going to wake up or the metaphor from the old mediation world they haven't had enough pain yet to be ready to really sit down and resolve the situation so that they can leave it behind um that to me seems to be the the just the essential fulcrum that we keep looking to and dancing around how do you how do you change mindsets in a massive way um where people are not skeptical because it's not about um one person's profit motive um the question comes up how did jesus do it because that's where we seem to be at a moment you know no pun intended especially for the christians in the in in the call um we had to come to jesus moment and here we are class are you muted if i may pick up on this come to jesus moment i mean actually when you look at the new testament it really is a craze um a strat strategic outline on how to fight you know in the social in a social change environment i mean you you can you can the the entire the entire um philosophy embedded here you know the the uh servant leadership the the principle you know if you're if you're really in a in a scenario where you desperately need change you become a servant leader because you want to you want to help right and it's not about you leading it's about you guiding you know with your ability to do that and there are so many fantastic ideas embedded in there but it's just all sort of washed and misconstrued in the way that we are interpreting this as a religion you know but anyway i saw it come to jesus moment yes absolutely um we are nearing the end of our normal allotted period i am curious about mr homer and whether he is carrying the words and sequence for us uh and if he would perhaps take the floor and share said words with us i prefer i come to buda moment myself yes i was just thinking w w bd yeah or muhammad or whatever prophet you choose to be following no i actually choose buda because he was a man not a god and that's important to me but it's it's reported that when the buda achieved his enlightenment the first people he saw were two children and they looked at him and said are you a god he said no and they said you know are you a an angel and he said no and they said what are you he says awake well that's my buddhist approach i don't i don't need deities i just need awake people does the pun work in sanskrit so again does the pun work in sanskrit i don't know but uh speaking of of being awake here's a little poem from antonio machado called is my soul asleep is my soul asleep have those be highs that work in the night stopped and the water wheel of thought is it going around now cups empty carrying only shadows no my soul is not asleep it's awake wide awake neither sleeps or dreams but watches it's eyes wide open far off things and listens at the shores of the great silence thank you ken does anybody else become addicted to youtube shorts of beekeepers who are rescuing the bees a texas beekeeper i think is her handle it's just amazing like youtube shorts are one minute and she's got a micro drama in a minute of i got i found this hive this is what happened and she goes in without gear and scoops up bees and moves them to a new container and finds can you identify the queen and clips the queen and a little queen holder and and talks about like what's going on she's totally a bee whisperer and i find it completely captivating and then i think the way it works is everybody's susceptible to being addicted to youtube shorts or tiktoks or whatever but everybody's addiction is different but i'm on first person roller coaster views i don't know why i love that we can have texas i did read a story yesterday i think it was in the new york times of a woman who was doing some yard work and a snake fell out of the sky and wrapped it against wrapped around her arm and began to attack her face and then she's screaming and flying around and her husband's running to her and a hawk comes down out of the sky and rips the snake off her arm and tears the hell out of her arm in the process and it's like i'm surprised it didn't happen in forda actually but it's a good reason for me not to go to texas wow what happens when you get in the middle of an ecosystem exactly we did uh we did a one-day trip into negorongoro crater as the only safari i've ever been on and at lunch you pull up to like near a watering hole and they're like beware of the birds like don't don't eat lunch outside eat lunch in in the car and we do that and then we go up on the roof and look around there's all kinds of wildlife around it's really cool and then we look at the the the jeep or the truck next door where there's a lady who's like putting her lunch out and a bird just like strikes just like wham and she's just shouts and jumps it's really quite amusing uh pete to feed your your roller coaster jones one of my favorite music videos it's not the view forward it's a view of a passenger in a roller coaster but it's a beautiful song as well uh so thank you about for you um and any last words from anybody else uh gil yeah i was struck when ken was talking about the conversation about what if we had to and the really astute observation i i often use the world war two transformation example and ken you know wisely pointed out that there wasn't consolidated organized highly funded opposition like there is now but i also think about the personal example if someone gets you know someone gets a medical diagnosis their kid is going to die unless they do something most people will turn their lives around to save their children or get a cancer diagnosis or whatever will turn their lives around this was this is what motivated carl hendrick robert found the natural step as an oncologist he found parents that would do anything that could possibly do to save their kids lives except change their lifestyle that was contributing to the environment of toxins etc that were creating cancers wow but but i'm struck that you know as i say the phrase that people will will transform their lives to save their lives not everybody does that some people don't stop smoking or don't do whatever it is the doctor says you must do this or you will be dead within 12 months and that may be an interesting place to investigate you know because it's it's very clear very direct very personal very concrete not abstract you know you will die unless you do these things and who does those things and who doesn't and what and why maybe there's a seed of something to investigate and understand there robert keegan and lacy lay wrote a book called the immunity to change that deals exactly with us they begin by saying people who have been diagnosed with heart disease and are told if you don't make lifestyle changes you'll die a very small percentage of the make the changes and so like why is that and their their take is that we have competing commitments so you know i i know i need to change but i'm also committed to other things that get in the way of that change so we have to start examining our commitments and we'll start examining what's the assumptions underneath that if we make that change that can thank you i'm going to check that one out the other the other the complementarity to the immunity to change is that one of the things that capitalism is is masterful at is change without change which is to say a distinction about which things that's committed to and which things are completely up for grabs happy to change all that stuff won't change this core so yeah could we use the audio industry as an example because i'm not seeing any any you know there's a lot of foot dragging on we're gonna and we're just going to switch to electric cars well we don't have the resources to do that we're never going to create a you know five billion electric cars not going to happen you know al goa just gave a tech talk um uh that was really powerful because he put uh i mean he talked about uh the cop 28 and the Abu Dhabi leader the head of the CEO of an oil company leading it and how it's too late to dig it up but if you go look it up and and he's really going after the industry's purposefully purposefully confusing the issues and putting up these pseudo common capture nonsense projects to basically distract and continue their work yeah and shell which has been a leader in climate change in the fossil industry for decades has just retrenched back into the fold yeah yeah so i was in a very smart person the other day who said ken like kind of like he did said we're there's no way we're going to convert everything to electric cars and no way we're going to get china and africa to not build air conditioners and my thought was well yeah but those are the those are the wrong questions and binary solutions with the wrong questions i'd rather think about how do we build cities that don't require cars how do we build buildings that don't require air conditioning even in hot climates we know how to do those things right so it's you know which question do you ask is it replacing the existing infrastructure so existing oil and car companies continue to make their profits or do we transform it to something else and that's the tough one 30 35 years ago gill one of your heroes fernando floris actually said that and he was prescient i think there will be radical discontinuity and by that he meant that some people would go through a mindset shift and many won't and and the imagery that that evoked for me was just kind of people kind of not getting on the train not getting on the on the mountain just being left behind as some new order you know percolates radical discontinuity and that's your note exactly um thank you very much for chasing the pearl together i really appreciate it so it turns out the pearl represents chi a thing i did not know and was quite interesting as long as we're not chasing the driving exactly and we always steward happy healing or yeah i think i'm going to be cool for a while mike i can't wait to see you in your jet fighter stay cool steward don't be trying to ride a motorcycle off a ramp off a cliff to do those squirrels don't don't worry speaking of short youtube videos there's a whole class to miss about tom cruise and his gung-ho you know do all the stunts myself stuff so if you don't have enough if you don't have enough time on your hands yeah exactly i actually sold my motorcycle about a month ago oh yeah it was a smart thing to do well thank you all be well and see you in a week's time thank you everyone uh bye