 I want to welcome everyone to the democratizing open space panel. We have some great guests on stage with us today. And I will start by introducing them, letting them do a little bit of introduction of themselves. And we have a couple of prompting questions. And then if we haven't already used up all our time, we'll start to take a couple of audience questions if there's time at the end. So I myself, I'm Carrie Kohoi. I am a professor in the aeronautics and astronautics department here at MIT. I run a lab called the Space Telecommunications Astronomy and Radiation Lab. It's about 30 students, some of whom are here. We built CubeSats. And we launch CubeSats and operate CubeSats on orbit, both for looking at Earth and looking at the stars and looking for life around other planets. Not always with CubeSats, but sometimes CubeSats to help bigger space telescopes. And I'm really happy to be here as the moderator, which is my role. I'd like to introduce our guest. I'm going to start farthest from me and then come in. So we have Alex McDonald, who's a senior economic divisor in the office of the administrator at NASA Headquarters. And he's an expert on American space sector activities and private space activity. And do you want to just introduce yourself a little bit more, and then we'll continue down? Sure, yeah. So I'm your token NASA bureaucrat here on the panel. And I've spent around 12 years at the agency in various roles doing economic analysis on private sector space activity. And now spend time trying to figure out how we make all the budgets line up. OK, and then next to Alex, we have Tiesel Murharmony, who is the curator of the Apollo spacecraft collection at the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum. And she's an MIT graduate with a PhD here from History, Anthropology, Science, Technology, and Society. And you focus on space diplomacy and the role of Project Apollo in shaping the United States space program. Exactly. So half my time, I write and I research on that topic, History of Space Diplomacy. And then the other half my time, I'm working with collections and exhibitions and public outreach related to the Apollo program. Thank you. And next to Tiesel, we have Leland Melvin, so who was originally an engineer at Langley Research Center at NASA. But as you can see, he was in the Astronaut Corps. And I'll let you tell your own story, but it's a story of perseverance and as well as great accomplishment. Yeah, thank you. I never imagined being an astronaut. I never even thought about it until this friend of mine, Charlie Kamara, he got into the Corps. And we worked together. And I said, if NASA can let knuckleheads get that into the astronauts, I can be one too. But I flew in space two times, STS-122 and 129. And I now try to advocate for as many kids and as many zip codes as we can to give them that opportunity to think of themselves as being astronauts and one day flying in space. Thanks. And then we have Frank White, who's right next to me. And he's a Magna Cum Laude graduate of Harvard and a Rhodes Scholar and has a degree also in politics from Oxford University. He's known for writing a book which probably many of you are familiar with called The Overview Effect and has a new one coming out called The Cosma Hypothesis. I don't know if you'd like to explain to everyone who may not already be familiar with the overview effect, what it is, and then introduce us all to the Cosma Hypothesis. Yeah, well, briefly, The Overview Effect is a concept that I developed that describes the experience of astronauts in orbit or on the moon or between the Earth and the moon when they see the Earth from space and in space, both seeing the Earth as it is but also as part of the universe. And the concept is based on, at this point, interviews with 31 astronauts, including Jeff Hoffman. And I think there are probably some other astronauts here that are part of the book. And The Cosma Hypothesis is a follow-on to that. It really addresses many of the questions that were raised earlier today, which is, what is our purpose in exploring space and how are we going to do it right? And as far as the astronaut interviews, it looks more at the fact that they experience the universe in a different way, not just the Earth. And what does that mean and what impact does that have? So that book just came out two days ago. So we're very pleased to be here and honored to have a chance to talk with all of you. Well, thanks, all. I was going to go back to the name of this panel, which is democratizing space and ask Alex about the role of democracy and how that is defined, really, given our country and our space program. How to define democracy and space. Well, let me just start by saying we have a democratically managed space program, which is a relatively recent phenomenon and kind of amazing. The single largest source of funding for space exploration and history of humanity are the tax dollars of the American people. And it wasn't always like that. In the 19th century, you predominantly had wealthy individuals, people who built the very large telescopes like Mount Wilson, Palomar. These are funded by Carnegie and Rockefeller. And the federal government did not have a responsibility for funding space exploration at the time. And I think that's really important to remember. Leland didn't have to pay what would today be $80 million to get a seat to go up into space. He is doing work for the American people related to our collective social goals in space as determined by our elected representatives. And that is an incredibly important and precious thing that we have to keep in mind and protect, frankly. I agree. And I think hopefully that price tag you mentioned will be coming down as we move towards not just the contributions of the government towards the development of the space program, but an increasing role in the private sector. Do you want to quickly comment on that? And then we'll take the question. Yeah, I mean, I think one of the most important recent milestones in NASA's kind of programmatic development was the successful demo flight of the Crew Dragon vehicle a couple of weekends ago docking with the National Space Station. This has been a very long process in developing this new commercial approach to human space flight. And what's really important about it, although NASA and your tax dollars have been funding this project, because it is being led by a company that has the legal right to sell flights on that vehicle to individuals, there is the potential now for people to start buying additional tickets. And the hope is that by increasing demand in low Earth orbit for human space flight, we're going to be able to see that reduction in price. And then Tiesel, one of the aspects of democratizing space is who gets to participate? And could you comment on that from a historical perspective? What happened in the past versus what you see happening now? Well, if you think about the origins of the space age and the space race, we often are reminded of the United States and the Soviet Union competing in space exploration. But space exploration was sort of born within the international geophysical year, which was an extremely large international scientific collaborative effort. It involves 67 countries participating in all sorts of studies of the Earth, Antarctica, atmospheric science. And they worked together for over a year. And the data that was collected was open and it was peaceful. And there was both participation of professional scientists as well as amateur scientists. And so it was a very inclusive, diverse group of people participating in this project. And the space age and space exploration was sort of born within this moment. So the launches of the first satellites were part of the international geophysical year, which is something that we forget sometimes. But the origins of space exploration are really tied to something that has different ideals, I would say. Could you explain to the audience international geophysical year? I know there are some younger folks in the audience that may or may not be familiar with what that event was. Sure. So it lasted for more than a year, about a year and a half, from July of 1957 and through 1958. And it was this large effort to study the Earth. And it included the participation of 67 nations, tens of thousands of scientists around the world. It took place during a sort of maximum solar activity. The expectation was that it would be good for studying the Earth. And it brought a lot of people together, and they shared the data that they collected. One of the programs that I like to mention that was part of that was the United States had a satellite tracking program. So not only a satellite launching program, but a tracking program in order to reap some of the scientific benefits of launching satellites, so atmospheric studies. And they collaborated with countries around the world to build up tracking stations. And this was one way that countries that couldn't launch their own satellites at that time were able to participate in a different way. And so the next question that I was going to ask was for Leland, which is, can you tell us a little bit about your effort, the constellation project, and also the 2068 aspect of it? One of the things that Frank talked about was the overview effect and how many astronauts that go to space, Nicole, Jeff, and other ones that are in here, fill this overwhelming cognitive shift when you look back at the planet as you go around it every 90 minutes. And I thought that this thing that I did, installing the Columbus laboratory on the space station, would be my aha moment. Two billion dollar laboratory, my job is to use robotic arm and attach to this thing so that all of your will go, Leland, Leland, Leland. But after that installation, in my thinking that that would be my thing, Peggy Whitson, the first female commander invited us over to have dinner in the Russian segment. And we float over with this bag of rehydrated vegetables. Yuri's there, Hans is there, Leo's there. So we have this international crew of people breaking bread 17,500 miles per hour while listening to Shade Smith operate. And this was the moment I'm looking out of the window and seeing this transformation happening to me, that this is the moment where I'm getting this cognitive shift, this perspective shift. And so even with vertical Arctic and blue origin and SpaceX, the number of people that will have access to space will be very small compared to the number of people that we need to give this orbital perspective to in constellation through Nicole Ronstadt and Anusha Ansari. We're looking to bring together a coalition of international astronauts that can help tell these stories of what we felt in space, whether it's through VR, whether it's through personal stories one on one. But how can we take this message to as many people as possible about constellation? In 2068, Bill Anders took the picture at Apollo 8 in 68. And so we're at the 50-year mark of that. And the next 50 years will we be in a place where we can have everyone living and working together in harmony and space, or living in harmony on this planet because of this perspective shift that we've gotten from this overview effect. Well, that's a great transition to ask a little bit more about overview effect and how you both see getting more people in belts are really democratizing and getting more people to experience space, even if they can't get their own person, like you're saying, using virtual reality. My students were thrilled when I bought a VR headset and the International Space Station program. And I will say, even just doing that myself is really transformative. I wouldn't imagine anything like the real thing, but it was enough to change how I felt. So what else can we do? What are the things that you think we can do to help bring this to more people? Well, you know, democratization, from my point of view, the reason that rings a bell for me is the overview effect in the sense that, as Leland said, and there was an earlier speaker on the science fiction panel said, almost everybody who hears about the overview effect or the experience Leland just described says, well, it would be great for the earth and the people of the earth if more people could have that experience, because it's obviously beneficial and it's a shift in worldview and it's the kind of shift we need to tackle problems on this planet. And so obviously one way to do it is to take more people. That's obvious. And the other obvious solution is virtual reality so that they feel they're there. Leland and I have been involved in a couple of projects where we had contests for people who otherwise would not get to go to win the contest and then be taken into orbit. And now the successor to that is Space for Humanity. I don't know if people have heard about Space for Humanity. It's the same thing. But what's most important is the idea of being diverse and inclusive. So really looking for people who otherwise would never think of going. And then they will become ambassadors and come back and share this with their communities. And Rachel Lyons is executive director. I think she's here. I'm on the advisory panel. And I believe that's one of the steps we can take. And then really good simulations can also contribute to it. I really feel like experiencing the overview effect should be a human right. It's a bit of an extreme statement. But Ron Garan, a fellow astronaut with Leland and Nicole, has said we're living a lie on the surface of the Earth. We experience the universe in the same way our ancestors 500 years ago. We don't really know through direct experience the reality of our place in the universe. Astronauts have direct experience of it. And they know what's actually happening. And I think everyone directly or indirectly should have the right to have that knowledge. So I think it should be a priority. And I think that would be a way to make it happen if it weren't just a few of us calling for it to happen or trying to create contests. But if it were a priority because of the impact it would have, that would be a way to move it along. This one's for Tiso. So what is a potential role for museums and their efforts to bring community in and also go to the community and educate? What are some ways that you are working to bring more people in to experience this? Well, one of the things about the Air and Space Museum is we have a large, robust audience. So seven to 10 million people a year come through the door, which gives us a serious responsibility in terms of communicating the history and future of space flight in a way that engages people and then also gives them a sense of what their role as sort of a citizen of the space age is. And a sense of also sort of agency and what they can do to participate in whatever way they may want to. So at the Air and Space Museum we're undergoing a massive renovation and we're redoing every single exhibit and we're making them represent a diverse array of stories about who participates in space exploration and what participation means and has meant historically and what it might mean in the future as well. So that's one approach and one thing that we've been doing. Do you have any favorite new exhibits that are being planned? I'm very excited about Destination Moon, which is the new lunar exploration exhibit, but also another exhibit I'm working on called One World Connected. And what that exhibit does is it looks at how aviation and space flight have changed our perspective of Earth and planet Earth and then also changed our experience on Earth and both of those two very related phenomenon. And I think it's important to raise awareness that we are all participants in one way or another in space exploration and space systems and in various degrees. And so that exhibit allows us to tell a diverse array of stories about the ways that we on our day-to-day lives engage with the space industry and how it affects us and then other choices that we can make. And it also brings in things like space art and talks about the different ways that people have engaged with ideas about space, looking at the Earth from outer space. Alex, this one is more along the lines of how, where do you think it needs to go for more people to get access to space? I know now, if you wanted to get to space yourself, that's a very small crowd who can make that happen. Do you think it needs to get to the point of costing as much as a Toyota or somebody's mortgage payment or something like that? Where do you see that break point from your perspective and your role? Yeah, I mean, we don't have a lot of information on the elasticity of demand related to human spaceflight because we don't have so many price points. We only have really about eight or nine people. We're working on it, but yeah. And what's gonna be really exciting about particularly the suborbital providers of human spaceflight is that I think we're gonna see a lot more experimentation with pricing, how many more people buy a flight at $50,000 relative to $200,000? Is there a certain segment of people who will pay almost any price? Are there people who kind of really are on the margins there? And we don't have a lot of information on that. So I don't wanna make a prediction about when that tipping point is, but I will say that certainly if you're looking at a couple hundred thousand dollars to go up to space, thus far when you're at the multi tens of millions of dollars scale, which is where we are now, we've only had some 500 people be able to do that. There's no question that when you get it down to a couple hundred thousand dollars, which I don't quite know, that's certainly more, that's a very nice Toyota. Right? Not all of the options. That's a couple of Toyotas. But I think the other piece of technology that's not just human spaceflight, because there's the overview effect, but there's something also you can think of in terms of how we collectively experience space that you either think of as kind of a Sputnik effect or a Libertad-1 effect. And Libertad-1 was the first CubeSat built in Columbia by a group of students who just wanted their own ability to build a CubeSat. And I'm a big believer that this process of communities building their own CubeSats, having that feeling of having built something with their own hands, send it up to space, and then feeling a type of responsibility and connection to their broader communities is how you actually democratize the tools of going into space. Because it can't just be on the demand side. It can't just be that people are buying tickets. We need people to have the engineering skills and the science skills and frankly, the system engineering skills to be able to actually build more spacecraft in more parts of the world than ever before. That's what for me democratizing space access is gonna be about. It's not just about a few of us buying a few tickets from some maybe monopoly providers. It's about more and more of us having the ability to build our own spacecraft. And I think also it's building the spacecraft but having the ability to use all these NASA assets, all these assets, the space assets, that help solve problems in their communities. Like if you think about the SDGs from the 17 SDGs from the UN and all these problems, quality water, education, all these things that we don't have around the country. But these kids in, was it Bogota, Columbia? Yep, Columbia. Bogota, Columbia were building something that had access to space, but then how will that help them solve some of the problems that are around in their community? And I think one of the things that Daniel Woods is doing here, Space Enabled, Aerial's doing with CubeSats and we're looking at distributing this network through libraries with the Library of Congress. So how can we get in every zip code so that every kid can know that hey, I am doing something that's connected to something much bigger than myself. And I think once we start seeing this connection of humanity in a bigger purpose and a bigger picture, then this mopic view of I'm in poverty here, I don't have education, but you're connected to other people around the planet that are pulling together to solve these problems for humanity or for, not for humanity, for the race, the human race. There we go. Also, yeah, I think Loretta said earlier that space is hard. And you know, I think the social aspects of creating that new civilization that is going to be in the solar system, but let's not forget the Earth as part of the solar system. So it's not about leaving the Earth behind. It's about improving life here and then creating an incrementally or maybe radically better civilization out there. And we have this amazing moment right now to shape it. People in this room are gonna be those who will shape that new civilization. And I agree with Loretta. It's not gonna happen by accident. It won't happen that way. And one of the ideas I proposed in both of my books really is the concept of a human space program. A central project for humanity open to everyone and all about how do we not make mistakes of the past but learn from the past and deal with the new issues that are gonna come about as we create a space-faring civilization. As a space advocate for more than 30 years, I've been talking about let's create a space-faring civilization. Now I think we're about to do it. So the question is different. How do we create a good space-faring civilization? Not one that is not even as good as what we've created here on the Earth, but one that's markedly better. And that's the challenge to me. And that's democratization. I agree. So I think we're probably all familiar with Hollywood movies that show humanity sometimes not as diverse as you would like it, coming together in the face of a space originating threat. And so how does democratizing access to space help prepare our society better to know more about the space environment, the hazards and the benefits? Can we maybe just have a couple of comments about that? And then I'll open it up to questions. That's a good question. I mean, I'll take a crack. I think one of the technologies we haven't really spoken about too much is technology of the internet. And what's really struck me is how fundamentally our access to information about space has changed. And one of the places where I see that is actually at the Space Operations Center at NASA headquarters, where we still have the major TV channels up whenever we're doing an EVA or we're doing a space launch. Which is kind of an anachronistic function because it presumes that television is where we're being covered. In reality, what we now have with the NASA Twitter feeds and the online web streaming, whoever is interested in space can now get direct access whenever they want it to the most exciting things that are happening in space. And of course, I might add, as we notice at NASA headquarters, there are lots of people who comment on various policy decisions whenever they want on the comment section. And that really has actually fundamentally changed our access to information, the technical information, as well as the policy information. So I think in terms of how do we prepare for these things because of our connectedness as a global civilization, we now have a much better information technology basis on which we can coordinate. And I think that matters. Cecil, any comments about that? This is tangentially related, but it's related to the history of Project Apollo. And after the first lunar landing, people within the State Department and US Information Agency, and then also the White House were evaluating the significance of it and the impact. And one of the points of evaluation was that it brought people together and unified people in the same way that a natural disaster might. But a much more positive route to that sense of unity. And it was seen as a huge benefit then. I would just add that probably sounds like I've written a book on everything, but it's not true. You have. I did write a book about the search for extraterrestrial intelligence or SETI. And it occurred to me the same thing. Just because we were suddenly contacted or even attacked by extraterrestrials, it's not automatic that we would come together. Some of those Hollywood movies, the extraterrestrials are really smart and they start bribing different nations and different people to support them. And we've seen that in terrestrial history. So what occurred to me is that the great thing about thinking about extraterrestrial life and intelligence is getting ready for SETI. That's another way we can come together and prepare because we do know that even if they attempt to be quite benign toward us, it could be a great cultural shock. And we could not do well with it. Let's put it that way. But if we get ready for it and prepare for it, it could bring us together, get clear about our values and how do we wanna deal with other intelligent life out there? Okay. Leland. At a shuttle launch, my family and friends and then everyone else's family and friends and all these other people were at this viewing place. Three, two, one, lift off, we're launching, we're shaking, we're rallying, solid rocket boosters come off, eight and a half minutes, we're in space. And during that time, everyone's in fear of challenger and they're like, okay, where are we in the asset? And I remember seeing the video of people's expressions after they said manage and cut off in how people were hugging and high-fiving and chest bumping because we overcame this potential loss of life for everyone on the mission. And I think just corralling that energy around a shuttle launch. I mean, when Virgin launches, when everyone launches, getting people there, especially children, to see that this incredible thing happened and that it was all done with people working as a team, as a family, as a community. Any rocket launch I go to is the same feeling. So I guess one of the things that is accessible to more people is just seeing that and realizing where that's going, how much energy and effort that took and seeing it work. So I will take a few questions from the audience. I think there's one right here with two hands up. We'll start there. Okay, so I am American, but I live in Germany and people ask me all the time where I'm from. But that question will make no sense in the future of space. So if we're ever contacted by an alien species and they ask where we're from, I wanna just have everyone say, Earth. So what do you think we need to do to get there? Comment origin. I would say we need more people that have this shift and more people that see this vantage point that we're looking back at our planet from the space station and how you go around the planet every nine minutes and you're really all one community. And in space, if Yuri flips the wrong switch, if I flip the wrong switch, if Hans flips the wrong switch, we're all dead. And so this sense of we have to work together as one community, one family on planet Earth to survive. And that's what we have to beat in people's heads, that paradigm. You know, it's just briefly, it's a common experience in astronauts I've talked to when you first get there to look for your home, what you consider your home, home state, home city. And then the more you have the experience, the more Earth becomes home. So it would be a natural answer that Earth is where you're from. Go ahead. Oh, a few stories from history of Project Apollo that seemed relevant. So when the Apollo 8 astronauts returned from their orbital flight around the moon, they were at a ceremony at the White House and they gave President Johnson the Earthrise image. But as they were handing it to him, they said, we took a picture of your ranch. And it's Earth. And that became sort of a joke that they repeated in different events. But there was this sensibility that that's now where we're from. And when the Apollo 11 crew traveled around the world after their flight, one of the things that was very impactful to them was that everywhere they went, people said, we did it. They were expecting maybe you did it, you went to the moon, or you Americans went to the moon, but the response was, we did it. And so there was a huge sense of global participation and that we did it all together. And so that kind of sentiment, if it's sort of encouraged and communicated and sustained with those types of projects, I think there would be a sensibility about, we come from Earth. Yeah, and I'm a numbers guy, so I would just say that we would have to be in communication with so many diverse intelligences out there that when we say we're from Earth, they ask, where is that? And we say, oh, it's kind of close to Mars. Okay, another question. I'm gonna go over there, the gentleman. I was gonna ask one over here, sorry. Oh, wait. Oh, okay, I'm sorry. The speakers are not projecting where your voice is. Yeah, I mean, when we talk about the shift from a civic engagement with space and we still have to account for the kind of aspects of military conquests that undergirded that project of exploration, but as we move into one in which privatization is the model, what we're really talking about is luxury tourism. And I think we have to account, and I wanna ask the panel, what do we do with the unequal effects of the pollution and the kinds of relation to resources that come with that shift? That's a great question. I mean, I don't think we have answers to it per se. One thing I will say though is that we are still, and we are projected to still be having public taxpayer dollars be the vast majority of funding for human spaceflight for the next five, 10 years. I think we're gonna see a lot of growth in the suborbital market, but right now the expenditure on the International Space Station in terms of the cargo supply, the crew supply is still $3 billion a year. And so I think that of course puts these questions around the responsibilities of pollution front and center in the public domain. And I think we do have to be conscious of the relative control over the technologies for space access. I think it's important that there remain essentially public access and not only through private sector activities, but we're so early in the stage that I don't think we need to worry too much about that. We wanna see a growth in opportunities because right now there really is only one way that, well, there's two ways you can get to space right now, which is through the Russians or the Chinese, and we hope there's gonna be two American opportunities soon. But that's so few compared to the diversity of opportunities we want. So I think there's really important questions. We don't know how we're gonna solve them, but I think it's important to have that expansion of some private sector activity to be able to see what kind of demand we're gonna be able to get. All right, do we wanna ask another question? Others, I'm not sure where the box is, but. I got the box. Throw the box. Okay, throw it, throw it, throw it. Throw it, throw it, throw it. Oh my goodness, it's with an arm. Wow. Put it on that side. Throw it, line. Can you hear me? There, I'm sorry, a bit prosaic of a question. I'm just wondering as the launch capabilities expand with Blue Origin and SpaceX, and how many launches do you anticipate next year and the next year? I mean, is it gonna be 25? Because up to now, it's except for communication, satellites and resupply of the space station. I don't see them. When we get four or five launch companies, are we talking about 25 or 50 or 200 launches a year? Loretta? I mean, on the orbital one, this is one of the big questions. We've been waiting for expansions in the number of launches for decades, right? We, some of us may remember the 90s when there was gonna be a massive expansion of launches there. It's one of the big issues is that there's a presumption that by reducing the cost, you will have a commensurate increase in the demand to offset your essentially profit margins on those launches. We haven't seen it yet. And so one of the challenges, for example, with things like CubeSats and SmallSats is it actually reduces the demand for launches. By going to Leo communication constellations, you may actually see a total reduction on the amount of launches, depending on how prevalent they are, how long live they are. But the economy on this stuff is complex, and I would say no one yet has cracked the code on it. And I'll say that I'm a little bit concerned that we're not gonna see that increase in demand. I think this year for the first time we saw a launch services provider buy their own rocket and sell tickets to go on it with space flight. We've never seen that before. So there are some things changing, but it's hard to predict. Time will tell. All right. We have other questions. So could you pass that just in front of me? There you go. And then we'll go for a big thread to finish. Where do you talk into this? So I'm all for the expansion of opportunities for people going into space, experiencing the overview effect. But playing devil's advocate, you have an acquaintance coming to dinner and they tell you about their vacation and how mind-altering it was. And you get more and more annoyed. And eventually you don't wanna see them anymore. Now you do that on a larger scale. I'm just wondering if you anticipate that it's possible that the people, you have a large amount of people going. Some people might not be interested if you anticipate any kind of potential alienation between these people that have experienced the shift and people that don't and how you would address something like that. I think when you come home, if you wanna send people that are great storytellers, they can come back and paint this picture of what it was like and then include this person in the story. And you're doing it over a meal with a glass of wine and you're breaking bread and you're having this conversation so that we've done that over the eons, passing these stories down to other people so they can feel that they're part of the experience. Even though they're not in the rocket, even though they're not getting the actual effect, but there's something about rich storytelling that changes people and how they feel about the community and about the society. Okay, well, I'll take one last quick question. I said a big throw, didn't I? How about back there in the middle? You want it? Okay. So Andreas Merschen at the Center for Bits and Atoms at MIT hosted an event last year that, I can't remember his name, but he had written a book about the filming and production of 2001 of Space Odyssey. And it was the 50th anniversary of the release of that movie. And I can remember going to that movie. And as someone who spent 26 years in the quote space industry, unquote, I think part of the problem is that these expectations that are made as to what the future of space is gonna be like and the failure to get there. Because in 2001, there was supposed to be a Hilton in orbit and all that, Howard Johnson's, the Starlight Room, remember that? So it's great to talk about these sort of grand ideas, but what can be done, do you think, to help take logical steps forward as opposed to these grand ideas that when they fail to materialize, just put a bad taste in everybody's mouth? You know what I mean? Yeah. Okay, we have 10 second take. So as an economist, you speak my language, expectations management, it's critical. And I think what we have to do is be honest with ourselves that this is not a decade long project. This is a multi-centrally long project. 100 years starship. Yep, and I remember a staffer in Congress said, if you could change one thing about Congress, in terms of space policy, what would it be? I had to think about it. My answer was reasonable expectations. And I would say the same thing to our community. We have to look for the signals of where the technology actually is, where the funding actually is, and we have to understand that all these things are gonna play out over much longer periods of time than we're usually comfortable with, but we have to also maintain the passion for seeing futures, or actually say, for building futures that we may not see. I think that's one of the most important psychological qualities that we're gonna need as a community to actually enact multi-hundred year type of projects, which most of these things, frankly, are. All right, well, let's thank our speakers one more time. Thank you.