 So we're now at part of the segment which is half half of my my favorite part because I think these miscellaneous issues Now we can speak about that Aren't really discussed at length I think today we are discussing the slaughtering of animals Which is great. And of course, we're going to be welcomed by St. Mohsin Shah. Thank you very much for your time Salam alaikum. Salam alaikum How are you? Thank you for having me. You're welcome and how are you saved? I'm very well and it's a lovely morning here in London. I've got the riverboat behind me. It's so nice. Cold London. It's home. It's home. Well, we had you in our previous morning baraka. We very much enjoyed your presence there and I very much as the first episode I look forward to the remainder of our time with you We'll be picking your brains for lots of topics. I'll do my best. So today we were thinking, well, we were going to discuss about slaughtering and halal meat. Yes And we're quite fortunate aren't we here in the UK, especially in London and around the UK plenty of you know outlets for purchasing So what are the laws around halal and you know, what's I guess there's a criteria, don't we? There's like a stringent criteria for it to be verified as halal Probably so to supermarket pickups. Yeah, exactly. And of course, as Zara said, we're quite fortunate in the sense that there are many outlets that follow a certain criteria, but from the perspective in terms of the Risalee Amelie of Sayyed Saleh Khasharazi What's what's the criteria for me to be halal? Sayyid? Bismillah al-Rahman al-Raheem. Like you said halal meat, alhamdulillah, is in here in the West, especially here in London readily available different sort of cuisines from different backgrounds all halal meat and including very very famous restaurant changes if not a lot of Chains mean non-muslim chains, right? Exactly non-muslim chains Which you know we go to on a regular basis, but then there also you'd be surprised at other chains which people didn't think Would have halal meat do actually offer halal service So it's really interesting how you know, you can actually go to one of these Michelin star restaurants Right, I should be booked self halal meat But now you say that Yeah, I was gonna if they're cooking a chicken they say the chickens halal, but say the beef isn't the lamb isn't Yeah, is it okay to eat a place that is gonna have how do you know what their cooking practices are that the cross-contamination and things like that with I mean we need to be concerned with that with seafood. You're okay because there's nothing really niches With seafood so you could just put it to the side. However With carcass of dead animals, you know, that is nudges So yeah, if this concocts contamination, you will be penalized for that. It is haram So this is this is now reaching the outlet. Let's let's let's take a step back to actually find out from Lawtrain perspective Yeah, from the beginning so that because all of this will make sense if we understand actually the criteria of what is halal What makes a meat halal and then we can understand these outlets I think So Bismillah Rahman Rahim according to I told I say Salih Shahrazi half of Allah He mentions six points in order for meat to be halal. I'm not gonna go for which animals are halal which ones are haram I'm gonna go through the slaughter process. Okay, so first of all the person who's doing the slaughtering has to be a Muslim Mm-hmm, and more importantly, he can't be a master be not to be meaning what an enemy of Rasulullah sallallahu alaihi wa alaihi and his ehlul bait. He can't be someone has enmity towards them So that's the first condition the second condition is they have to use a sharp tool preferably a steel sharp tool So a knife If not a knife then they can use another sharp object even like a stone or a rock that's sharp enough. They can use that The third criteria is that the front part of the animal must be facing the Fibla So front meaning like the face the eyes the chest The legs should be facing towards the Fibla The person who's doing the slaughtering must say Bismillah. You have to say Bismillah. Allahu akbar Even if you say it with the wrong intention, so let's say you were saying it because you're about to start a deed Not because you're actually Slaughtering the animal that renders it haram. It has to be with the intention of slaughtering the animal So is there is just just on that note Is there a specific sentence that you say for example and we or like with Salaf for example, and we assaulting Salat and whatever No, that's not so with the knee or just a knee and then it's near in the in the mind And then you go ahead with the slaughtering Bismillah, Allahu akbar or Bismillah is even fine. Just Bismillah And then you'll slaughter the animal The other criteria is that there has to be movement after the actual slaughter Now what's what we consider movement movement of the legs is sufficient even the blinking of an eye So there's just that is is it's sufficient So it can't be like stone cold dead as soon as you don't it's not moving it's there There has to be some sort of movement And the final one criteria is that the four main arteries have to be cut It is makro to actually take it too far or to actually sever the head Okay, so you have to be very it's really really technical It takes takes a lot of skill and practice But so you've got the four main arteries. So so it's like this muslim man Teddy animal facing Kibla Bismillah near Bismillah four main arteries and movement after okay, so that's how it is So like you said, it's quite technical And and while we know six steps and then those are going to be doing it We'll know the steps and my mind is racing for sort of all the criticism that we face from a western perspective Of you know, how it's barbaric and how you know animal rights and things So you said there's a sharp tool and the four veins have to be just cut and then the movement So is that to say, you know the the sharp tool sudden and then it's you know There's no pain. I mean there is this campaign because they they seem to think it's barbaric Or they seem to think that this slaughtering process brings harm to the animal when in fact it doesn't I mean when you look at the mustahabad, you know, it's it's um, mustahabad actually give water to the animal It's must have to comfort the animal to lay it down When you do it, it's must have to cover its eyes So see anything. Yeah, so what we see with with like with the lambs and then goats is they have really long ears So you'll see the the the butcher What he'll do is he'll use the ears to cover their eyes While it's laying down he'll cover the eyes and everything facing the kibla and If you recite certain eyes of the Quran They do actually seem really really calm. There's loads of videos available on youtube If you type up, you know slaughtering halal animal and they'll show you muslims actually slaughtering the animals and The animal's showing no formal resistance or panic or anything like that. So I've Again, my mind is raised from the million questions, but With these outlets um, and then going to the supply chain And the beginning of the supply chain is basically these animals being slaughtered From what you're saying the process sounds a bit long. How do they how are they going to be make able to make mass production of slaughtered halal chicken if it's going to be Um, such stringent laws, but it takes time I'm pretty sure they don't take every animal putting down Yeah, it's not it's not feasible to do it in such a manner So how would how would if you think about if you had like a chicken farm and you've got one order for 100 chickens Are you going to be chasing 100 chickens and so forth? There are measures put in place to um help with mass Um demand um, for example like stunning meat is is one one Tool you could say that they use to you know, make sure the chickens aren't running around everywhere to keep them in one place And to easily help with But then stunning would mean that if you do slaughter the animal Is it going to be moving after? So that's another question So according to the maraja and couldn't say it's already is that if you stun the animal Is it classified as dead or not? And can we continue with the the halal there's a big process Um, he has said that as long as the animal hasn't died you may continue and the meat is halal There's no issue But the criteria you said that as what as soon as you make the incision and you slaughter There has to be some sort of movement in these ears Anything any any form of movement? Yes. Okay, but if the animal was stunned and as soon as you Slaughter it. There's no movement after so. How does that work? You're assuming that there's no movement Have you seen the chicken being stunned or an animal being stunned? Are the lungs still breathing? You know, they're still working. I guess so there is okay. I mean, it's not to say that when you stun an animal There's no movement whatsoever. All right Stunning an animal is is is essentially like putting them to sleep or just dazing them for a bit But there is still movement Very very minimal But there is and that will be sufficient enough and that would be sufficient enough As we said even the blink of an eye is sufficient So, um, yeah, there is issue though the issue actually comes with Does the animal die or not because if the animal dies with the stunning the nas haram you can't have that You can't and I mean, that's why we have certain, uh, halal authorities Who are actually trying to put a stop to stunning of chickens Not of all animals because um, we were talking before in this country in England It is mandatory to stun meat. Okay It is mandatory to stun meat, especially when it's a cow or a lamb um And the reason being is because share size and also to do with like Humanity and and these you don't want to force Do you think but do you think that we eat too much meat? You know if you're saying about, you know, there's a hundred chickens I mean the amount we consume do you think that there was you know for the six steps to be taking into consideration? That's a long You know, it's it's it's a it's a strenuous car. So it's a vegan No, there's a middle ground. Isn't there we maybe should come back studies show That the one of the biggest contribution to global warming is the amount animals being slaughtered the share amount of animals that we have for Eating and consuming that these farmers and and they're pumping them with hormones to that as well This is one of the biggest contributions to global warming global warming indeed. Yeah So We are eating too much meat. It's actually damaging the world And our health We have plenty of hadith that, you know, tell us not to you know Yeah indulge in too much meat It's actually a disease cool. There's a there's a it's a disease called the The king's disease gout space. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah gout and they educate for our very interesting year We say this I actually got gout Because I ate too much. Basically what happened was I was I was um at work. I had this Thing where I would buy processed meat and bread and a certain type of cheese And I'd have that for lunch every single day Um, I'm quite weird like that if I stick to something that I like I just have it every single day You too And two months straight After that I got this this weird like crystallization of a ball and one of my joints in In the foot when I went to the doctor said it was gout and I read into it And it's actually called the king's disease because king hen with the eighth Okay He had this all the time because he had Access access amount of meat and that's what I thought. Okay. I need to go back Number one from processed meat and number two I need to change up my diet I'm literally in the same thing every single day for two months Wow You know in a serious note, I should actually there's many different New diets like flexitarianism, for example, which is like the mix of meat and and and vegan It's a mix of meat and just normal vegetables and stuff, but it's not not stringent A balanced diet is exactly that isn't it? It's like, you know, I mean I remember we were growing up boy would have vegetables in the week and meat was something that you know the weekend You're family together and it's nice and I think you know every night to have heavy meals and you know chicken meat My dad says now the price of vegetables have gone up so much. You must eat meat What would you say about supermarkets that sell halal? Do you think that's quite a safe like I think so. I mean to be honest when it comes to inquiring about halal meat Um, you only inquire if you're not sure if the meat's halal So maybe you go to a place where there's no halal Certificate or an indication that mrs. Halal meat. You'd ask now I think it's it's you know wise for someone to be a little cautious And also to inquire, but I believe also that there's limits to inquire now according to the fiqh the ahqam of I told us a salik shalazi He says that you know, it is sufficient for you to ask the muslim Is this meat halal and if the muslim says yes, it is That's your you could say your um obligatory investigation complete And you don't need to take it any further right, you know a lot of people do actually want to take it further You know they'll speak to a muslim. Oh classy your certificate or what about this or what about that? Is it stunned or not stunned? I mean the worker wouldn't know that would he Indeed the worker wouldn't know that but I feel more it's it's you know You're kind of challenging the integrity of your fellow, you know brother in in islam And I think sometimes it can get a little embarrassing, but however How bad have has the world or the muslim community got that muslims have to ask whether the meat is halal or not? If you think about it, I mean there's a stringent criteria number one number two Every single corner shop is now halal Yes, um So then then then there's there must be some sort of questions raised as to Where are these where are you getting this meat from? um, and I think there there is a certain you know, there is a certain Ah, and there's also a bad reputation on on certain outlets even like normal like chicken chicken shops Just on the high street. Um when you actually delve into it. It's not really halal They get it from some weird guy in in brighton or something like that And then then the whole question arises of okay if this person's not halal is he getting the same meat as this person? Yeah, the sauce and then it's all about the sauce really actually the question that we had today and I was I'm gonna Just quickly read it because it is the topic that Ali's just raised now. Um someone's written in slam Saying I have recently moved to a new city and there are not many muslims here There is one halal butcher shop and I'm not sure if I can trust them or not Is it okay to ask for their certificate and where they get the meat from and that's somebody in um in london Is perfectly acceptable And you know, I would actually encourage it that if you have some sort of doubt or you have some You know, you're not too confident and yeah do investigation. There's no harm in it But just be kind and and be you know cautious that you don't want to offend anybody Now if you go and you ask a muslim and you say is your stuff is halal or not Where'd you get it from then maybe you could go in your own private time and google where this This you know the outlet is or where this Abattoir is and whether it's halal or not maybe contact the halal authorities and say look There's this halal shop Is actually halal or not or they get the meat from this avatar Do you you know verify that this is halal or not? You know, this is this is perfectly acceptable. What are people looking for in a certificate? So, you know you get stamping it says halal. I mean There are many different halal authority food authorities and each one has their own criteria of what is halal or not Some may I know that there's a very famous one that they do not accept stunned chicken as halal So they want purely non stunned chicken Slotted in a halal manner and they verify that as halal. There's others that will actually accept stunned chicken Who which School of thought are they following are they sort of speaking for knowing that muslims, you know constitute such different schools of thoughts Shia Sunni, you know, etc. Or are they looking at one particular? I think there wasn't an issue of stunned meat 50 years ago. Maybe the demand wasn't so high And I think maybe once stunned stunning was introduced into the actual technique of slaughtering animals avian the halal manner And when muslims discovered this and that or there could be some sort of issue in regards to stunning meat I mean, that's when the investigation was taken And and through the study they they have discovered That there is a small chance. It's not saying that this is 100% I think it's very very I think it's less than 10% That the animal could actually die from the stunning Before it is put to the knife. I don't know how much time we've got left. Probably not much, but um I do want to quickly cover the aspect of the spiritual impact on the person Obviously, we're physical and spiritual We go to a shop. We think it's halal. We're sure it's halal. We eat And perhaps it's cross-contamination. Perhaps, you know, the people that prepare it are not muslim How is that impacting us? Or we're Unknowingly eating haram meat thinking that it's halal. I mean It's a really good question because you've got islamic law on one side and you've got spirituality on another I mean if you were not aware And you know, obviously you can't really go and investigate and have a look at the kitchen to see if people are wearing gloves Or not or they're using the same pots and pans or utensils if there's cross-contamination There's cross-contamination But it's not wajib and mandatory upon you to go investigate that Your what is obligatory upon you is just to inquire whether the meat is halal or not and that is sufficient Because islam is a religion of ease and peace, you know It's it's not about going and questioning people's integrity and things like that However, put that aside of what is mandatory on you and your akham Let's look at the spiritual aspects. Yes, definitely. There is a an effect on your spirituality when you have and consume Haram content The the effects can last up to like 40 days that you say what kind of effects can we sort of? I mean it impacts the soul really and obviously it will cause, you know, things like You to become Immoral it could cause things like I can't remember the word we could say munafiq in in Arabic. I don't know what you call it in English, but like hypocritical That's a hypocritical Um, you know and and and other sorts of diseases of personality Yes, depending on what you eat And and even like, you know, god forbid anyone touches alcohol And we know that especially in certain countries in cuisines, they do add a bit of alcohol while they're cooking Yeah, um, you know that if you consume that your your prayers aren't accepted for 40 days I heard that with the alcohol in in cooking it evaporates and then depending on how much they put in but if say it was a drop Um, it evaporates because of the cooking temperatures and things and does that still apply to what you really need to investigate It's number one alcohol is in the jalsa. So whether it touches. I'm not justifying. I'm just, you know No, you're playing devil's advocate. That's that's that's fine. When you pour alcohol into food Alcohol is not as annual in the jalsa. It will contaminate the food around and make it nedges You'll have to refer to a scientific expert Yeah, I'd love to spend more time on this. I think that there's again There's so many directions we can take especially when it comes to halal and there's needs more than the specific segment But in terms of understanding the criteria Um, understanding the outlets what we can do and especially answering the question of for example going into a new city or Actually going to any city and asking for Um, a certain certificate is I think sufficient enough and Or if you want to do your own personal investigation, which is fine. So Um, don't offend people. That's the main thing. We need to really need to keep our luck and then not to disrespect or challenge someone's integrity Yeah, so, um Again, I'd love to spend so much time on on on this subject. But of course time is is of issue. So Many thanks for your time today. Say thank you very much. I really appreciate it And for myself and Zahra, we will see you on Friday, which will be the next episode. Um, we'll have another guest Stay tuned to know who that is. Uh, but any case. I'm hungry now. Actually. Yeah, inshallah. You have a blessed day And we look forward to seeing you very soon. As-salamu alaykum