 Hello everyone and welcome back to For The Minions, the weekly show designed to keep you in the loop on all the games that us para-refugees care about. That includes ethereal and all the successors. What we're going to do today, we're going to go through any news and updates we have for each of the games. We're going to talk about the popularity poll and then our discussion topic for this week is self-funding versus investor backing. Two of these games are investor backed, two of them are self-funded. We're going to talk about the pros and cons of each and then do remember that this show, anybody can be a part of it. If you want to come guest host, all you got to do is hit me up with the comments. You don't have to be a creator. You don't even have to have a webcam. You just want to come on and talk about these games with us, then just hit me up and let me know. And so I'm your host, TheMangus. Joining me as always is my friend and co-host, Jelly Knees. Jelly, how you doing? I'm doing fantastic, Mangus, another exciting week of updates for all these games and all that good stuff. And then we've got Mr. Stunt underscore V here with us. Welcome, Stunt. Hey, thank you. Thank you, Jelly. Thank you, Mangus. It's great being here with you guys always. Yes, that's a good friend of both of us. A good friend of the show. We talk to Stunt a lot. Stunt, just tell us a little bit about your history with Paragon, favorite heroes, that sort of thing. I started playing Paragon because my cousins introduced me to it. It was one of those games where if all five of us were not on, we weren't playing. I did a few AI runs and stuff like that. But I was mostly playing with Howitzer. I was mostly a main, a mid-main. So mostly it was Howitzer, AGM Scorch, Gideon, things like that. It was it was one of those games where it brought my cousins and friends together and we would constantly play. But I think Moba's nowadays I've put more hours into it than I have in Paragon. Paragon was close to about 500, 600 hours because by the time I was introduced to the game, by the time I started enjoying the game, the new card system came out and Paragon died away. So like that nostalgia feeling is still in me. Like I'm waiting for I'm waiting for something like that, just just to have fun again with my cousins. So he was a filthy five stacker, Mangoose. All right, now get him off the show. That's it. Believe it or not, Jelly, always if we were, if any of us queued alone, we did not queue into a match. We just went on, played with AI, tried out the new heroes and all that. It was just we were just five stack. That's all we did. I mean, I can't I've been five stacking in fault like a madman. Wait a second. How did I become the non five stacker here? I have no idea. But let's move on into the news and updates. Predecessor, we're in a bit of a dry spell, nothing really for Predecessor. But I do want to get Fault's opinion on Prede or not Fault. Do you want to get Stunt's opinion on Predecessor? We haven't had Stunt on the show before. Stunt, what do you think about Predecessor? Sure, we're all opinion. I really like the game. I was I was lucky enough to play in the last closed the closed alpha and was lucky enough to play a few games in the stress test. I enjoy it. I mean, the reputation for for having everything perfect or trying to be perfect. It they they prove it like the gameplay is smooth. It's fun. It brings back. I think out of pretty much all of them, it probably brings back more of that Paragon feel. So if somebody has like a Paragon nostalgia and stuff, Predecessor back that feels so. But I'm just waiting. I'm like on on like spikes, just waiting to see what what they're going to come up with and what they're going to give us in the next in the next phase. So. Yeah, I would absolutely agree with you. Stunt in that I think Predecessor has the most of that and that it captures the most nostalgia for me. Playing Predecessor like gets me back in those fields. I played a lot of Feng Mao when Paragon first released. And so playing Feng Mao and Predecessor feels almost identical to me, despite the map being slightly different. But it's just that feeling and I'm just like, yes, I can go out and just absolutely smash people with this character now. Right. Like it just I love that feeling that they have in their game. Yeah, I don't think they're going for an exact one for one copy of Paragon, but they they do definitely come the closest. I've said that a million times now. Let's let's move on. Since we weren't really having much for Predecessor and talk about ethereal since we all participated in the streamer event that they had won the sixth. And that was a lot of fun, a whole lot of fun. Stunt, what was your opinion on it? Because you were kind of new to ethereal and you got to come in and play. And I know you and you practice with us like you actually came and played some games before the streamer event. So what's your overall impression of ethereal? First, I want to thank you guys again. It was an amazing experience. Ethereal is is on a completely different level. I mean, there isn't a game I can compare ethereal to, to be honest with you, if if those actually fans or those those the community members that haven't played it yet. I mean, I can't even come close to a game that compares it. It's it's it's extremely fun. The the fun thing about ethereal is where you're constantly, constantly looking behind you because you can gain from any any angle. It's just a very fulfilling like some of these other pairs zombies. You know that mid lane and the side lanes are connected by one river or whatever it or the jungle. But in ethereal, that anything is possible. And it was it was actually a fun, fun time. I enjoyed every minute of it. It's one of those games where when you jump into a game and you and you play, you don't feel the time go by. At one point, I looked at the clock. I'm like, dude, I'm for 38 minutes in and it felt like we just started five minutes ago, and that's what it is. It is constantly keeping you engaged, is constantly keeping you playing. It's not one of those games. If you fall behind as a character, you'll start you start losing the clean. So you constantly want to jump in and and engage so you don't you don't have that issue. Yeah, I had one of the creators mentioned to me over the after the extra life event that it gives you the feeling of that like FPS, like, like, like adrenaline feeling almost while you're in lane, right? That when you're playing because at any moment, Aliyah could dive out of the sky and get you at any moment. A Malaya could show up behind you, right? And it's it's I think 3D mobas captured that a little bit. But I think ethereal does that on another level because of that that extra verticality and those extra abilities, making that difference. It's I also I take a huge amount of pride. Like you're calling my baby beautiful. Like I'm sitting here like this. I love to talk about absolutely. It is because in this game, like in most games, when it comes to the other pairs, zombies or even paragon, you are constantly afraid of like Kalari and all these other jungles. In this game, anything is possible. You can't just say, oh, this one character, if it's on their team, then we should be careful. If you make that mistake, then you're you're pretty much screwed. That's that's how it comes down to, you know what I mean? The whole the whole process, the whole gameplay, the the field, the time going by quick. If if people are looking for a for a game that has a quick quick time or the timeline is pretty quick, whether you play an hour or an hour and a half, you're not going to feel it. It almost feels like it's five minutes long. Because of all the engagement and all the fun and all the all the objectives you have in the game. So yeah, it's it's an amazing game. It is definitely turned me. I'll be honest with you. It's definitely turned me. I like it. Yes, you love to hear it. Mangoes, what were your thoughts about the extra life event? I know you and I have talked about it already on ETE, but. Yeah, I mean, people are I know my feelings about it. They're old. But I just wanted to say that the the the streamer event itself went off really well. I didn't really have any complaints whatsoever. Excuse me. Your body says otherwise. I have to edit that out. Um, like I said, there was only one problem that was SoCAP disconnected the first game. And that was because his kids were downloading, downloading Doom. I think it was or something like that. So that wasn't a problem with one you guys and I thought everything was ran extremely well. You got a good, a decent amount of games in. And then you went into that the Q&A so that you guys could specifically answer some of the questions that were coming up in people's streams. I thought that was a great idea because you know, people are going to get these questions. And not all the streamers know everything about ethereal. And that's a good way to get engaged, even if you're repeating information that people that have been following ethereal from day one already know. It's still good to get that information out there. And I thought you guys just did an incredible job of of putting that event together and it went off without a hitch. Which is more than you can say about a lot of stuff. And it's more than you can say about some of Undying Games's older attempts at this kind of stuff. I thought the the first extra life event, it was fun. It didn't go at nearly as well as planned. But, you know, stuff happens and you learn from it. Absolutely. No, I mean, I'm really glad to hear you guys that you enjoyed the event as a whole. It was super fun for us as well, right? Send all around a great thing. But we've got now the stress test to look forward to, which is kind of that next obstacle in Undying Games eyes on the 20th of November. So if you guys, if any of you guys watching this aren't signed up yet, go to the Undying Games website and get registered for that. And you can get signed up for the stress test to get a chance to enter in there. We're doing like final preparation on getting everything set up to make sure that that stress test goes off without a hitch. So it should be fun. And speaking of repeating information, once you register for the newsletter, you're registered for the stress test. So a lot of people were asking that. And yeah, that should be a great time. I'm really hoping your servers hold up. I really hope they hold up for as long as possible and you can get. You know, at least about 500 people or something like that in there. That would be that would be great. I want as many people to experience this game as possible. Because like Stun said, it really it even if you're dead, subtle and Paragon, I think once you try a theory, your opinion is going to change a little bit. It's it's it's new and it's fun and it's interesting. And there's going to be a lot more stuff in the stress test than was in the streamer thing. So, Jelly, can you inform us what's going to be different about the stress test? Yeah, so the stress test should have we should have the reapers climbing in there. So I will be able to climb walls for zerkers will be able to destroy walls. So Ron, we're actually looking at implementing the ward system into that stress test. So there's a lot of those unique features. There's some balance tweaks that we're making to make the whole experience just more fun for everybody. Just yeah, a bunch of those kind of things that we're trying to get in there and get in the works so that we have as many of those systems up and running as possible. So now you can be even more scared and lay now that Malaya can run over top of a mountain and come in to drop in behind you. Yeah, exactly. And then the last thing I wanted to cover before Therial was a runs theme where I talked about this on ET a bit. But that was released stuff. Did you did you hear a runs theme? Did you see that on their YouTube channel? I didn't get to see our steam, but I'm pretty sure it's going to be something amazing. Yeah, it was it was spooky. It's busy. I mean, it fit it fit his it fit him. I wouldn't say it was spooky. It was just like jelly said in ET. It's like a presence like it's it's a little a little ominous. But I did love your comment, man. You said this should have released on Halloween and then Owen coming back with the in here we see this is Halloween. Brilliant come back. Oh, Lord. Freaking Owen. But I'll tell you this, man, Goose, the other videos I've seen as far as ethereal, the other introduction videos, everything is on point. They're they're all amazing. You know, I try to keep an open mind when people are criticizing the game because there is a lot to criticize. But like some guys said that he didn't like the he didn't like the voice lines and he didn't like the voice acting. And like that got me that got me right in the fields, because I love the voice lines and I love the voice acting. I was like, oh, what are you talking about? Yeah, exactly. I didn't get mad. I didn't get mad. But I was close to it. I guess it sounds like you got mad a little bit, maybe a little bit. I didn't express my anger, I should say. There you go. There you go. All right, let's move on now into fault. Still no version 14, but we do have two map images. I'll be showing them on screen as we talk. But yeah, it looks like this was confirmed that it's from version 14. So it looks like we're getting, if not a brand new map, then at least an aesthetically upgraded map. I think it's a brand new map. I think everything's going to be changed. Stunt, what do you think? Both, both images. The one that came out, I think, was yesterday, showing one of the lanes or one of the towers. They look great. I mean, I've always been a type of type of player who's really like the graphics, too. And as far as all the all the pair of zombies that are going around fault, the graphics, the images and stuff like that are very interesting. I'm liking what I'm seeing. It gives you that more realistic feel with with seeing the tree line, seeing all of that. I was just trying to figure out what lane that was. I tried my hardest to see what they're trying to show us. And obviously, obviously, it's going to be a secret until 14 comes out or whenever it comes out. Yeah, Jelly, what do you think? I agree with you, man, because I think it's a brand new map. At the bare minimum, it's a redesign of that lane as a whole because the way that it declines into the side paneling is all different from what's currently in fault. So I would say it's most likely an entirely new map because they've been teasing a new map for longer than they've been teasing patch 14. So it makes sense that we're getting it. It's one of those things where I almost wonder now if we're getting almost too much in patch 14. Yeah, like as weird as it is to say that, it sounds like we're great. We have the mastery system. We have a new map. We have a new character. We have the AI. We have all these things. Like at what at what point are you overwhelming everybody instantaneously, whereas you could just drop these things in quick succession, but slightly spread apart at the same time. And it makes me wonder why, if that's why 14 is so delayed, is there so concerned with trying to package these things altogether instead of giving the AI instead of giving just the map instead of doing these smaller, but still big patches side by side instead of all at once. Right. I'm just a little confused because I didn't think there was anything wrong with the map that they have now. I mean, if they got a better map, cool. I just didn't think it was that big of a deal. I know a lot of people have been asking for a new map. So I'm probably in the minority with thinking that the map they have is perfectly fine. But the one doing new map, they can do a new map. I don't care. The second they did that lane looked a little flat to me. Like you're used to the verticality of Paragon, but that lane looked very flat. However, when I was in, I was watching bearded stream and while he was streaming, the one of their map designers was in his stream, kind of complaining that they had chosen that image to show, because apparently that was like the least changed of anything and was probably not I think they were just trying to give us a little taste and not reveal too much with that particular image. So apparently there's a lot more in store than just what we saw right there. And to speak about the map we're playing on now, Magus, I'm going to talk through some of the community members. It's not that they don't like the map. They think it's kind of boring. They see it as where like where the river is supposed to be. It's one straight lane. If you close your eyes, you'll go from left lane to the right lane and they're saying there's not too many places to gain. There's no corners and stuff like that. Plain. And we understand why they did that because they were having a, what's the word I'm looking for, optimization issue, because some of older Windows, older videos, I like the older map that Fault had. The jungle area would look much more amazing, but I guess because of optimization and all this other stuff, they had to deal with this map. And that's the most complaints I get is the map is kind of boring. That's the only thing they're saying. It's not like they don't like any of the jungle minions or anything like that. They just see it as boring. I think for me, and because jungle is the role I primarily play in Fault, is their jungle camps are all pushed in like the same tiny area and you just go through your four camps right in the same kind of vicinity and then go out to the lanes and that's your diversity of something else. And I would love to see that change a little bit more and kind of make you walk a slight bit further to your jungle camps to make them more separated and feel distinct rather than just you have a group of four camps all nearby each other. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Like going from red buff to that side buff to the side camp and then the front camp. It's just like you're right there. Like it's all in the same general vicinity. Whereas Paragon, like you had the camp that was closest to your tower and then you had the red buff and then you had a camp like way over here and then a camp way over down here. Yeah, you're right. You're right. I don't know if they want to add that many camps, but yeah, the gold buffs on the lanes in Paragon were kind of hidden inside, depending on which side you played the dawn or dusk. Yeah. So good stuff. I mean, I'm glad to see something out of them. I would much prefer to see that patch. I agree with you. 100%. So let's let's move on to overprime. Man, them, them, them, them solely boys. They've been put in. I'm solely boys at it again. I'm a little surprised that more people aren't as excited about overprime. As, as, as, as you, as you see, I guess it's because that, that initial overprime push kind of put a bad taste in their mouth, but man, they have been putting in work, all kinds of stuff. So let's start off. The biggest thing that people have been concerned about overprime is not on steam. They show themselves registering, registering for steam and then their registration is under review. I've been checking steam every day since to see if it is if they popped on the store. I don't think they're going to pop onto the, I think they'll receive the approval and then it's up to them whenever they actually populate on the steam store. But yes, we finally have at least proof that they have a that they are going to be on steam and they're going to be on steam very, very soon. Yeah. And I think the video specifically states when they submit it that it takes up to 48 hours to review your page. Right. So if it was going to auto populate, we should have seen it by today as of when the video went up, right? Theoretically, they could have submitted earlier than that. But yeah, I'd imagine they have to hit some kind of go live feature on their page to make sure that that's all up and running. Right. So what do you think about steam for overprime? I mean, they're, they've started their engines and they're not planning on stopping it. Everything, everything is coming quick. I mean, overprime in general with all their videos, and you guys were talking about it last week with Virta 2, their videos, their team behind the artwork, everything is, everything is, is amazing. I have nothing against it. Their action is, the gameplay action is a little bit fast for my taste. But again, they're probably, they're, they're pushing it. They're, they're gunning it. They have their foot on the gas and they're not backing down from, from the first time we heard about overprime making moves, I think from, from their backing to, to now. Yeah, those guys are, those guys are aiming for a finish line. And, and then I think they're, they're on track to do so, especially if steam goes live. I'm just very curious to know how many people are going to jump on it really quick and what the reviews are going to look like because steam is notorious to get reviews. So I'm very curious. Well, it is going to be faster. It's definitely going to be faster. I usually prefer the slower play style, but I think it's a smart move because that, that distinguishes them from fault and predecessor, more than fault and predecessor are distinguished from each other. It puts them in a whole different category by, by increasing the speed. Like if you guys don't know, like from what we saw from their stream, all of your abilities, except for your ultimate were unlocked from the beginning. There was only two towers. It seemed like you got XP and gold really fast. The, the way I think of overprime a lot is here's the storm because there's a lot of similarities. Like all, all the abilities being unlocked at the first in like an overprime you take the, when you take the prime, it marches down lane and pushes the lane for you. That's kind of what happens in here's the storm. And when, when I really think about it, I played legal legends. I played Dota. I played here's the storm. The only one I stuck with was here's the storm because it was easy to pick up hard to master. And I liked the quick gameplay aspect of it. And I could get a game or two in before I could, before I was waiting on something else. You know, so, I mean, it might be just a really smart business decision on their part to make it that much faster. It may not bring in as many of the para refugees as some of the other games, but they, they have a shot at bringing in their own crowd. Yeah, absolutely. How to have the wording. I don't want to misword it, I think, or say something that's wrong. But I think it, that their play style and overprime is mostly their style and their culture too. Because it's faster, like like Kalari, I don't know what Kiki or whatever. Nice. Something like that. K. It gave me, it gave me like member Ninja Gaiden back on Xbox. Yeah, it gave me that type of action, quick action. And I think it's, it's in their culture like that, the map design, it's all vibrant, colorful, like flowers here and there. So that's the feeling I get from, from their, their, their side of the game. It might be a little too quick for my taste and having the the side lanes, a portal to enter the side lanes kind of scares me because in any mobile you know that the carry lane always gets kicked. Now, if you have a solo in there that comes in, by the time you even ping somebody, you're, you're dead. So it's a scary feeling, but it's just their style. That's what they, that's what they want. That's what they do. Yeah, that's those faster mobile MOBAs are huge in the East, right? Those, they dominate. And so it makes sense that a company from that region is developing a game that fits that same place that you're saying stunts, that it just, it all fits together. So it makes perfect sense. And like Mango said, it's differentiating them. Basically they can pull the monolith crowd and then Fulton Pred can pull off, off the legacy crowd, right? They're, you're the two separate fan bases that were based, essentially two different games almost, right? They can go to either direction depending on what they feel they want. It's not just hoping that you're, that the one you're following does what you want. It's here. Let's move on to the next item for overprime. They showed off a picture of destroyer. We don't know what it is. A lot of people are saying it's their, it's another one of their own heroes. Like they've already talked about, I forget her name, but the shield and whip hero that they released that's that's of their own design that is completely unique to overprime was never in Paragon. People are saying that this might be a hero that's unique to overprime. And I personally like I've already talked to you guys about it. I think it's just a new skin for the or prime. That's just my opinion. What what do you guys think? I initially thought it was like that because of the size. I mean, yeah, if they're only if they come up with their own character, maybe, maybe it'll be bigger, but the sheer size compared to the other heroes that were in that picture, it only tells me like a main boss over whether it's overprime or another another like objection or an objective for the game. That that's where it came up to me. I don't think I think the biggest hero we've had so far in in any of these games has been what rampage rampage when he's a size right. And then this picture, that thing looked bigger, bigger than rampage. It looked like a huge, a huge character or prime. So, Jelly, what what what did you think of the of the destroyer? I mean, I think he's too big to be a hero. Yeah, unless the only thing that I can think of is if it is a rampage skin, it's him during his ultimate. Right. Assuming his ultimate is exactly the same. Otherwise, there's no way it's a hero because that is too big of a character, especially in comparison to like Iggy and Scorch. Like it's just too large. It has to be something else, probably an orb prime skin or something to differentiate themselves. Yeah, because if you failed to snipe that with Murdoch, you should have installed the game. Here, did you hear that? If you miss excite on Murdoch. On that character. No, no, I think just in general, if you miss snipe and Murdoch, you get on the stall bearded. Whatever it is, it's fucking cool. Like it looks really cool. I just the main reason that it really looks like it's built on that orb prime skeletal mesh. Like if you look at the proportions and the way it's kind of walking and everything, not really walking, but the way it's standing. But it could be a new hero. I guess we'll find out sooner, sooner or later. At this rate, we'll find out tomorrow that they'll release a new video, dude. They just keep popping. Every day there's something new coming out. Speaking of that, they also released, I think it was today, the day that we're recording this, their mocap suit. They did a little YouTube short showing off some guy dancing around in a mocap suit. And then it showed Twin Blast on that dance. So they're using mocap to put new animations into the game, which is really cool. Jelly, you have a little mocap experience over there. What do you think of that? I think it's incredible. The fact that they're... So that dance is like a big thing on TikTok right now, right? So the fact that they're taking pop culture reference, essentially, and putting it into their game is huge. Because some players, that's all it takes. You see a character doing that dance and you go, what is that? And you want, you inquire just a little bit more to get you involved in that game. So if that's what it takes for them, that's huge. The fact that they're using mocap to update animations for the Paragon Assets is huge as well. They've been... They were given everything on those so they really could focus on their side, their new characters and all of that kind of stuff. But they're going back and actually implementing more for original characters too. Which I think shows that they're trying to make everyone feel welcome. Whether it be the old Paragon crowd, that you're still gonna get new things as well and in their own characters, in their own community as well. What do you think, Stan? I was surprised. I was surprised to even have motion capture in this type of game. When I opened the... When I opened the YouTube page and I saw the motion capture, I'm like, wow, you guys are taking it to another level. Usually you just get characters that are animated and sculpted and with 3D. But to put in motion capture, this could be something new. Yeah, I mean they already had all the characters and animations and everything from the Paragon Assets. They didn't need to do mocap unless it was for their new hero. But it looks like they're going all in. They're going all in. I had no idea that it was like a popular TikTok. And it was in a full-fledged mocap studio. In the background, you can see the green screens and the lights and everything that's there to make that look as good as possible for them and their animators to make it as easy as possible for them as well. It's good to see that it's not just some guy in his garage putting the mocap together. But it's a full-fledged mocap studio that they're using, whether it's their own studio or they're hiring a third party to do it. They have that capability, which is nice to see. Yeah, good stuff. And then the last thing, not really big, is that they are going to start advertising via TikTok. I thought they already were. They were doing the YouTube shorts. Why not just take that and put it on TikTok? Just make sense. But that fits now more with that dance, that they can throw the dance on TikTok and then it all comes full circle. It makes sense that, like I said, it's drawing just a couple more people in. That's all it takes. I can think of some shit I've seen on TikTok that I'd like to see Decker do, but that's a different story. All right then. If you're in LA, I'll take you to a mocap studio and we'll get your day here. Decker dances going man. Right on. Hang on. I can come to LA and we can do this as a Christmas gift for Mangus. We'll get Decker animations made up for him. Who do you want? Who do you want to act out as Decker? I thought it was going to be Jelly. Me or Stunt? Stunt? Yeah, Stunt. You're a Stunt, man. Yeah, we're Stunt, man, but I don't do TikTok dances. No, I do some cool shit. I want to see Parkour Decker. Parkour Decker, do it. Yeah, do a backflip and throw the little ball around. Hit my own teammate and steal the enemy. Do it up. Do it up. All right. Let's move on to the popularity poll. It was a little different this time. Pred is down to 58%. I shouldn't say Pred is down to 58%. It's more like a theory that's up to 20% is kind of what happened. I think that has a lot to do with the streamer event and then Over Prime is up to 12 fault down to 10. And I think for fault, that's mainly because people were so excited for version 14 and then the patch 14 and then no patch. People are starting to, they're excited for faults starting to wane. We'll see what happens after 14 if that number goes back up. Stunt, what do you think of these numbers? Autist opinion, a theory or a predecessor are probably going to be top two. When the stress test weekend happens later on, depending on what predecessor comes up with, what predecessor does, how they fixed their issues they had with the stress test, I see theory or a predecessor being on top. And I've said it, a theory is the type of game that that brings in new players, completely new players that's going to introduce MOBAs to these players who are open world, new world players or open world dark souls players because they go with the theme. When you look at predecessor and you look at fault, there really isn't a theme. There's no way that you can connect Murdoch to Gideon to, I don't know, Rampage Knight. But Ethereal has a theme. When people look at Ethereal's trailers and we've talked about this before, they automatically assume it's a dark souls type game because when they don't see lanes or they see you juggling, they think it's like this new world type game. And then that's perfectly fine. If they try the game out, the game is going to sell itself. I'm pretty sure it is because that's what it did to me. The person that missed fault that wanted a fault type game for me to jump into Ethereal and be persuaded just by the game pay, aside from the hospitality and all that, the testers and everybody else showed me. That's a side fact, but the game itself sold it for me. And that's all you need is for somebody to jump in and just try it out. And I see the numbers being up there between predecessor and Ethereal becoming pretty even. I do see that happening. As far as fault and overprime, that's on them. What way they go and what they do is already on them. That's interesting too because Undying Games and Ometa Studios have always had a very good relationship with each other via the past. You don't really see Undying show up in a fault stream. You don't see Ometa show up in an overprime stream. You'll see Smokey show up in some Ethereal news or you'll see Owen show up in Smokey stream or something like that. That's pretty cool to see. What's your opinion of the numbers this week? I love seeing Ethereal up 7% in a week. That's huge. Seeing that overprime had a slight uptick and fault had a slight downtick. But I think they stayed relatively the same in terms of... Because you also got 100 more votes this time around than you did. Last time was 210 votes by the time that I actually did it. This time it was 452 votes. That's insane. You can hold your votes almost and that's crazy to see that that kind of difference happened. Super stoked to see Ethereal up 7%. Hopefully just keeps on going up even through the stress test and everything. It'll be interesting to see when patch 14 drops how fault performs. When overprime drops on steam, how they perform. When Fred does whatever Fred's doing next then it'll be interesting to see if that jumps back up 70%, 80% we were seeing originally. So it'll be cool to see and watch those numbers change over the weeks. What Fred do, what Fred do? Fred do. Well that's going to close out the popularity poll. Let's move on to the discussion topic this week. We almost got into it last week. We kind of started to segue and I was like no, no, this is a topic all on its own. We need to talk about this. What we're going to talk about is self-funding versus backing because there are definitely we can see the pros of investment backing just through overprime itself. And then Predecessor has their investors too and we can see that they've been using that money and putting it to good use. But we see fault they're also making a decent chunk of money. Ethereal kind of went out of nowhere with the NFTs and started their own weird funding thing that nobody's ever tried before and was pretty successful with it when they got their Patreon. So let's talk about this. I think some of these are pretty obvious some of the pros and cons. Stunt, you're the guest. I'll give you the floor. This is an interesting field. It comes out to me too because when it comes to games and films it's the same thing. Even in films, when you bring in a new script and you do something like that and you have an investor like a producer backing it I think in most cases when you bring in an investor the cons outweigh the pros. Yeah, the money aspect is there. But even in the film industry or in gaming industry, what happens is if you look at it on the investor's point of view they want to make money back too. They want to make their money back and some more. So they'll come in and say hey, you know what, I'm filming your film or I'm funding your game or your film or whatever but I get to bring in my own actors to do the decisions. And in most cases when you fund the game like that and you have no idea what the game is based on you can completely steer it in the wrong direction. When you come and say, you know what, it's my money it's my decision. We're not going to go this route, we're going to go this route. And that's what scares me about investors all the time. Yeah, self funding you put in more work, you do it yourself but you're able to connect to the community and give them what they want. When you have a company behind you even though you have unlimited resources or unlimited amount of money or whatever they want to put into it at one point they're going to stop you and be like yeah, you know what, no. We're either going to sell this character or we're going to leave this character for special people who back us to you see what I'm saying? Sometimes the investor portion the cons outweigh the pros a lot and most times actually I wouldn't say sometimes, most times the cons are and I think that's what killed Paragon too. Oh yeah, Tencent owning 50% of Epic definitely had part of the downfall of Paragon. Again, when people confuse like sorry for cutting off Jelly, when people confuse predecessor with the grant they got, it doesn't mean Epic is backing them up. Epic really doesn't need to do anything. From my understanding if you use Epic, you're going to give them a percentage of your money anyways, no matter what happens. If you're using Unreal Engine you automatically get you're qualified for a grant. But and when people come tell me, they come and tell me hey, they got a grant from Epic that means Epic is backing them. No, not really and you really wouldn't want Epic to back another third person mobile after the disaster from the first time, you know what I mean? I wouldn't want it. This is why I think Superville is more of an he's more there just for advice than he actually controls anything. That's what I think. Which I think is a good thing. Yeah, it is. It's a great thing. Yeah, so for using the Unreal Engine when you use the Unreal Engine and you market a product right and you're out there actually making money off of this game, whatever it may be you Epic Games gets a percentage cut. I believe it's 5% to start. Just because you use their engine to do so. Right and then so the Epic grant for Unreal Engine projects is kind of a like self starting way for themselves because in order to get the Epic grant you have to be using Unreal Engine by using Unreal Engine, you owe Epic money should you start making money at the same time. So they're acting as an investor without having to do any of the work of an investor. They literally just give you the money and if it pays off they get it all back. Like it just inherently from using the engine itself. So it's a kind of double-edged sword in that regard. It's super great to get the grant for the companies that need it because that could be the difference between shutting the game down and it releasing and sometimes that's all it takes to get the game started and rolling down the road. But I agree with Sun in that it's hard because Paragon showed us that investors don't necessarily have what's good for the game in mind. They have what's good for their pockets. And Paragon started with some pretty heavy microtransactions already in terms of the card system and needing to unlock those cards to be playable in a lot of ways and then only got worse over time. With locking skins behind loot boxes, locking more things behind loot boxes. Like just absolutely adding and tacking on more and more things to make it so you spend more and more money and that almost wholeheartedly I would say is an investor thing. That the investors wanted their money back and Epic had no choice but to say okay here's what we're going to do to do that for you. And being self-backed has its own issues of things most often don't get done as quickly because there's just not money behind it. You're relying on volunteers or you're relying on people that are being paid less to do the similar amount of work. Right? But you can then control that product better and make it more what the community and what you envision it to be versus having to answer to somebody higher up that is the end I'll be all of the game at that point. What do you think? Well we've talked a lot about the sort of the downsides of investor backings. Some of the good things I think we can see the upside of having somebody back you in the quality of predecessor and the quantity of stuff we're getting from overprime because those are the two that are backed by investors and then Ethereum is going to be self-funded. Fault has been self-funded for a while and I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to have investors. Yeah, they do take a little bit of control but they make things happen too. It's going to be easier for predecessor, for made of studios and for team solely with overprime to get the game to a finished state faster and to a point where it can start making money whereas Fault has to make that money up front so they can keep moving on. Ethereum is going to have to make that money up front so they can keep moving on and then the other thing is with investor backing like they want a return on that investment if the company needs something they're going to help them out. If something fails with Fault or something fails with Ethereum and then the company just kind of abandons them they're done. They're out. Game over. I mean it could be the same way with the investor backed games as well like if the investors just don't like it anymore then they just pull the plug on the game and then where are they? Without all that money backing them up all the people that they were paying are going to leave of course whereas with Ethereum all those volunteers they're going to keep working more than likely because they have a love for the game. So I don't know I think the results speak for themselves with overprime and predecessor. I really believe that. I think it's a good thing that they went with investors but it's probably just not the best way to go for everybody and self-funding probably is the best way to go for everybody but we'll see in the end what happens with all of these games. I think that's one of the most interesting things though Mangus if we look at just overprime and predecessor is they both announced their investing partners in similar timing within about six months of each other and there's actually a pretty huge difference in what we're getting out of both of those despite that investment. With predecessor basically that announcement came out and the only thing we've really heard since then was the stress test that failed. We really haven't gotten any information past that we really haven't seen anything new we really haven't seen any of those things past that investment announcement and then the stress test showed there was a lot of changes but nobody could really see them because nobody could get in game whereas overprime announced their investment that they were partnering with SoulEve and then you saw a direct increase in terms of how fast things got done how quickly updates came out how their marketing picked up in association with that and that's been really interesting to see as well is that we've got even inside the investor bubble we've got two very different examples of that bubble. And the thing with overprime is that it can also backfire too. They got the company the backing of the company they have a new map they have new characters on top of the 21 or whatever they had I think a lot more they had the most they're testing out PlayStation or whatever they're testing out obviously a console and I think all of this can actually backfire going from a PlayStation port or any console port to a cross platform gaming with PC can have its own problems just because the company has all that money doesn't mean when it comes out it's gonna be like a straight shot. I see Ethereum fault and predecessor having a much smoother much better game on the day they come out then overprime and like you said they have investors but that money sometimes can be the downfall that's the worry about it because they're pushing so many things out they're pushing so much at once yeah they might have 3,000 just visual effects artists just working on two characters I mean that's fine you'll have all of that but what happens when it releases what happens when you give them all this much and then you turn around and you monetize some of the items what is it gonna do to your player base because you're not getting enough money back and again that's why I reference it to a movie because it happens producers come in where you have a set actor or actress and they go nope my nephew's gonna play my nephew just graduated psychology from UCLA but no he has no acting career but since I put some money he's gonna play you see what I'm saying it comes to that situation and it's scary personally for me I rather have a company that's self funded who works hard in the beginning and then gets to that point and they fund themselves and they go on obviously they have their own risks of losing the company and doing all of that then an investor coming in and taking such an amazing game and saying you know what now I hate this idea we're gonna do it my way especially when they don't know what the community wants yeah speaking back to kind of what Jelly was saying earlier it's different types of backing for Soliv and Omeda like Soliv is backed by Netmarble who is experienced with specifically gaming whereas Omeda is backed by angel investors and just different investment groups that they went to like one of them and know they've never funded a game before this is the first game that they're funding which is exciting stuff it's great news but you can like like you said predecessor we haven't seen much out of over probably just churning it out because I think Netmarble has a little bit more experience with backing a gaming company then predecessor just got money to do what they wanted with it they have no direction maybe Steve Superville can give them that direction because he has certainly had experience with that sort of thing correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Netmarble mostly known for handheld like cell gaming for apps yeah there you go mobile games so that's a scary feeling now you're transitioning into a third person mobile with PC maybe over front it's gonna be all mobile I wouldn't be surprised the kind of boilerplate for both of them is that overprime has gone from an indie company to feeling like a AAA studio whereas predecessor still feels like an indie company right despite having those investors behind them they still have that feel they still feel like they're the little 10 person team that they were years ago which is good and bad on both on both aspects and it's literally you could flip the coin and today it's good and tomorrow it's bad it just that's all it will be but that goes for all of the projects on both sides of the funding world is that any one decision could be the thing that makes it a bad day versus a good day for your choice of how you got investors so it's interesting to see how it all plays out in their own respects each way I think another sort of benefit to self-funding is the player base themselves feel more invested in the success of the game you wouldn't be able to tell that looking at fault today because people will shit on fault all day long that bought it but they shit on it because they care it's like JPY JPY shits on fault constantly but it's because he cares about the game and he wants it to improve he wants to believe in fault as a product I think ethereal is going to be a little different I think people that love ethereal now and are investing in it now through the patreon like the NFTs that's a whole different thing but the patreon that you guys got going the people that are invested in ethereal are invested for the long haul and truly truly believe in that game I wouldn't say we're fanatics but we're definitely fanatics 100% you seen my youtube videos? yeah we're fanatics it's impossible not to be obviously every game has its flaws we all know it it's not but it gives you that it gives you that fun feeling like I said again for me based off of videos and following ethereal I was always interested from the from the day was it a year ago or maybe longer jelly you guys had a video where a character was running the jungle and you were talking about how there's going to be different layers on the map and all that other stuff nothing was built yet I was already intrigued having a flying character a flying hero having a climbing hero and all of this other stuff but the game itself sells and I think in my opinion self funding also does that where you guys listen to the community a lot more overprime being the most maybe funded that's why we keep talking about overprime or comparing it they don't listen to the community I mean they're doing their own thing maybe a couple names here and there but the community comes in and says well we don't want phase to be like that they're not going to care because that company says hey this is what we want this is how we're going to put it out there and this is why I prefer self funding when it comes to investors for any reason you mean that you don't want Daryl and Ellen in your game or do you want actual names for your characters we talked a little bit about the difference in investors there's also a difference in self funding between ethereal and fault I hate to say this but fault a lot of people bought it because it was the only thing out there but they don't believe as much in fault as they do say predecessor they just bought it because it's the only paragon like game that's out there that they can play right now whereas ethereal I think people are more likely to actually pay real world money for like a skin or something just because they know it's supporting the game people that play fault ain't going to pay jack shit they don't even touch that coin store because they they've got the game so they're fine they don't really care about supporting strange matter I think the ethereal community cares about supporting a dying games that might tip the balance to and take them a little further than the strange batter is able to go but I mean like I said we'll see maybe version 14 will completely turn things around for strange batter and they'll get even more players and then players that really believe in the game and aren't just playing fault because it's the only thing that they can play you know what I mean yeah and yeah fault started out with their indiegogo into their paid access on steam and then ethereal has their NFTs and then into patreon that's ongoing and it they're very similar in regard to that concept but like you said fault appeared out of the ashes of core I mean if we're if we're honest here out of the ashes of core when core really fell apart fault suddenly showed up and then being the first thing that was playable people latched onto it and that was present in their indiegogo as well as just their initial days on steam as well with that with that initial launch yeah whereas that's ethereal doesn't have that for lack of a better way to put it the kind of being the first of its of the of the Paragon successors successors it's not people aren't latching on to it for that reason they're not latching on to it because it's the first thing out they're not latching on to it because of those things they're latching on to it because they actually like and care about the concepts like you were saying they want to support the company making the game and the game itself more than they just wanted to play paragon again yeah yeah and then these timelines don't help out either the timelines with everything don't help I mean the reason earlier for the popularity poll predecessor went down wasn't just because they saw a gameplay of ethereal that it was nice they're staying too quiet and it's what five months now four months now it's coming to that point where people are like dude we waited long enough we have all these other games that are on the verge of coming out and we're just we're just gonna go over and that's the scary part about it too yeah and I mean the rumors circulating just prior to the stress test and then just after the stress test where that predecessor was gonna go into some kind of early access paid or not in November of this year and we're in the middle of November of this year and we're not hearing anything the most reason we've heard is they're looking for more testers which I think gives people that uneasy feeling of the game that we thought was leagues and bounds ahead of everybody else is not as leagues and bounds ahead as we have believed it was and so it's making people kind of second guess and do a double take on predecessor whether or not it's really the thing that they need to be backing right now okay gentlemen we are coming up on about an hour and I do like to keep these about an hour long so let's start closing it out stunt final thoughts on the topic thanks again for having me guys the whole the topic is very important man Gus it's important because we get a lot of developers who are mixed feelings who don't understand the background process of what it takes for devs and these game developers to make a game it's the hardest so those of you that are watching this youtube video just be patient give these guys a chance to show what they got just be patient that's all I ask for because it's not easy on the back end everybody sees what comes out but they don't account for all the stress everything the back end devs and stuff have to deal with on a daily basis whether it's fault predecessor whether it's over prime I mean just give it a chance just wait up and just follow for a minion so so you get all the good information hit subscribe like and comment down below I thought that was his job that's what I'm here for I got to be the shill from Angus jelly any final thoughts on the topic I think it's just going to be interesting to see where each of the projects go I'm excited that we saw the uptick with a theory it'll be interesting to see what the stress test does for that as well how the stress test goes in general of course I want to say it's going to go great I honestly have no idea something could happen and so it's going to be interesting to wait and see what that looks like get registered for the stress test if you haven't and then yeah I think that's it I think it's great that a couple years from now one of these companies just takes off we can be like it's because of what we said back then like you can look back and say well I totally said that that's why they would be successful or one of the crashes we could say the same thing I'm going to collect our 10% we're just going to sit back and collect the checks I said 5000 different things and one of them catched on it was all me you just got to clip the one thing you said right and then refer to it just start making a bunch of different twitter accounts all of them have with one theory each and then just be like oh see look I predicted it back in 2021 you know oh shit well let's wrap it up stunt you got anything to plug your twitch channel my twitch channel just twitch.tv backslash underscore stunt B or stunt V underscore or stunt underscore V I confused I bombed the whole thing people aren't going to go and they're going type delete type delete it'll be linked in the video description below there you go thanks Magnus gotcha bro jelly knees anything to plug yeah I'm starting to stream again myself starting on Monday which will be super exciting we'll do marvelous Monday which is twitch.tv underscore jelly underscore knees underscore stunt underscore V and so if you just go to that link I guarantee you'll find my account there wait I can't catch up what was that again that's all I got what about you Magnus I got nothing to plug because this is all my channel like I always say so like subscribe and comment there you go you can dislike if you want to a council say it was a like nobody gives a shit the worst thing you can do to a YouTuber is not hit any of those either of those buttons that's the worst thing you can do so if you dislike something if you dislike the YouTuber themselves don't hit the dislike button just move on dislike it if you dislike the particular video they did but you like them go ahead and dislike it then comment on the bottom why you dislike it just don't mention stunt he might come back so you don't like me on there I do want to put out again like if anybody wants to come co-host the show hanging out with jelly and I talk about all the different Paragon successors and then an interesting topic and talk about these poll results and all that stuff then just hit me up let me know but yeah that's gonna wrap it up for this week I will see you guys next time shout out to channel members foolish blood hunter jelly knees meow mix for men and stunt