 and City Council meeting of Monday, November 7th, 2022. And we'll begin with the Pledge of Allegiance. Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. OK, item two is instruction on exiting the building in case of emergency. Thank you. So for those in the room, you can go out either door at the back of the auditorium, take your left or right to get to an outside exit safely. For those participating remotely, thank you for joining us remotely. If you'd like to talk during any agenda item, please either turn your camera on or indicate in the chat that you would like to speak and the chair will call on you. We are not monitoring the chat for comment, for content. Thank you. OK, thank you. Item three is the agenda review. Are there any additions, deletions, or changes in order of agenda items? Seeing none, we'll keep the agenda as presented. Item four then is comments and questions from the public not related to the agenda. So please come to and make sure that the green light is bright green. Thank you. Good evening. My name is Bill Barber. My wife, Nancy, and I live at 15 Hummingbird Lane in South Burlington. I've served on the board of South Burlington Parks and Recreation for the last two years and was most recently the chair of that Parks and Rec Committee as well. This evening I come as the trustee at Community Lutheran Church, which is located at 1560 Williston Road. And if those of you who may not be aware, there's the beginnings of a tent encampment in the woods that's right behind the church property. I think it's Victory Lane and Williston Road. It's been there for approximately eight weeks. There's, I think, just approximately three people in the one tent. It's quite a large area. It's more than one tent. It's one group of people. The main access to the encampment goes right through the property at the Lutheran Church, through the parking lot and our main building. That's the main access. Not necessarily myself, but other people in our church. We've talked to the fire department, the police department. I've called 911. In fact, last week I called 911 because there's a huge fire going on. And the answer to me was, well, they don't really need a permit. It's OK for them to have a fire. I know I've only been going to church for a little over a year, but I know that if we have a tent, we have to get a permit to put a tent up on our property. If we have a fire, we have to have the fire department come out and take a look and see if it's not too close to the building or whatever. None of that's happening here. No fire permit, no tent permit. I think everybody's frustrated. A bigger issue is I know there's a dog ordinance in South Burlington. They have to clean up after your dogs, but at this tent and camp, I don't think anybody's cleaning up after the sanitary conditions are deplorable, really, when you think about it, that this is happening in South Burlington. So we as a church, we certainly don't necessarily think it's a church issue. I think it's a city issue. We don't have the resources, the money resources, or whatever to try to handle this. One concern is, too, that there's one group of people there now. Something's not done in the near future. It's been going on for a couple of months now. There's going to be another tent camp, another one, another one. If anybody's my wife and I have walked, we take walks down at the, in Burlington at the bike trail there, and you go ahead towards North Beach and there's tents all over. And I just, I'm sure that, I think that that's going to happen here as well. We also have a dumpster on site. The gate to the dumpster was just recently ripped off. They're taking all of their garbage and dumping it in our dumpster on our private property. We also obviously have some safety concerns. Without making too many assumptions, I'm going to say that maybe some of the individuals in these things may have some other issues going on in their lives. And that's a concern to us, in terms of mental illness and so forth, and the amount of gang tags and so forth. From being the parks, being on the parks committee and being the chair, we've gone around to different parks and seen a number of gang tags and stuff that are up throughout our parks. And I just think some of that's coming from these kinds of individuals. I don't see a resolution at this point. It's been going on for two months. We've talked to police and fire or whatever. It doesn't seem to be going anywhere. And it's quite frustrating. And I just don't think it's going to get better if we don't do something about it. And that's why I'm here tonight to let City Council and the city manager, you may already be aware. But this is a huge issue. And I just, I don't mind getting to the bottom. As long as you've hit bottom and you know you're going the other way, but I don't think we're still in free fall on this one. And I just think something needs to be done about it. And it's very concerning to the members of our church as well. OK, thank you. Just have a clarifying question for Bill. So the Accomments, two questions. The Accomments are on church property and how many? No, no, it's on city property. City property, OK, but to access it, they're going through our property, our dumpster, or whatever it's said. And how many individuals do you have still? We think three at this point. But that could change. Yeah, OK. Jessie? So I was actually going to talk about this in city updates. So if you don't mind, I'll just give an update now. Sure, please do. Thank you very much, Mr. Barber, for your comments. So as I said, I was going to speak with the council to gauge your temperature on this any way during city updates. So this is a, we've known about, we, the city, have known about this issue since mid-September. Since that time, police and our community outreach team through Howard Mental Health has been working with these individuals to try and get them access to services and permanent, secure, and safe housing. Those conversations were going very well for a number of weeks. And we thought that there was some light at the end of the tunnel to ensure that these folks were safe and supported as they could be by our community. They have now indicated that they have no inclination to leave, that they will not. The tools that we have at our disposal right now is to find folks for camping on city property. That's not going to be hugely effective. So the chief and I would like to bring forward to the council encampment policy that will outline steps we need to take to remove folks from public land. That as you may know, the policy would protect our resources, our city land, but also the city's liability. As you might know from just reading the media, there have been several cases like this across the country that have ended up in very significant lawsuits. So we wanna make sure that we have the right policy in place. It's blessed by the council and we're doing it correctly. So if I see some head nods around the screen and the table, the chief and I are prepared to bring that back to you at a future meeting. Okay, I see a couple nods. To begin to be, it's been going on. I don't see it into it. It's gonna get worse. And I don't see anything, you know, I understand. It's difficult on your part, but it's also in our backyard. And I know there's residents on the street behind the woods and around that. I know they've called as well to city hall. And this is the Lutheran church on Dorset. Is that a Lutheran church on Dorset Street? No, it's on Allen Road, is that right? No, it's on Williston and Victory. Oh, okay. I had a whole nother vision in my mind. There's a large piece of property there that's wooded city property. But again, the access is through our property and our dumpster. Okay, thank you. Okay, I appreciate you coming in. I share your concern. And it sounds like we'll potentially have something to discuss and hopefully find a resolution for this. And I would love, you know, if you would like so we could set up a meeting and come in and speak some more about it. Yeah, we've heard from many, I've talked to many, many residents about this. Our police are doing directed patrols. Our fire department, as you know, is there a lot. These are folks that we are trying to maintain relationships with to contain the issue while we put into place the policy we need to undo it. Okay. Thank you very much. Dan Albrecht would like to speak. Thanks. Two items. One is sort of a statement regarding Feral Dog Park. It's great, it's great to see the new dog park open. That's great. Feral dog parks, the four step child. And then there's been, I found old documents. I've been in touch with rec department and public works off and on over the last three years. So I know there was quite a punch list there, play structures, some new vent improved fencing, maybe a little bit of lighting to help like times like now, daylight savings time. And all I could see is that looking at the minutes of the dog committee that there's a little bit of plan work to try to improve some of the drainage. And there was one load of sand that was brought in sometime this summer. Appreciate the efforts. I just, I'm getting frustrating just watching it being ignored and I don't know why it's continually pushed to the back burner, but it's frustrating. There's a lot of apartment buildings in this area. This is also the transit overlay district where the city council and the planning commission want to put all the housing and people don't have big yards, et cetera. And so there's a lot of dogs out there. So I just hope that somebody at city council can spearhead this because it hasn't been happening, being sort of shuttle back and forth between public works and REC and the different dog committees and all that. So I'll just leave it at that. You guys know what to do. I talked to the staff people, but I just somebody needs to take this by the horn because it's just keeps dragging on and it's quite frustrating and it hurts as a resident of the city. I feel like our section of the city is ignored and it's frustrating. I'll just leave it at that. Related to that issue, second one is more of a question and maybe one of the counselors can address it in their updates. I'm trying to get a sense of what's happening with the Charter Change Committee. I did see that the next agenda has kind of like a discussion of the different types of strong mayor, different types of government. I read some old minutes from a couple of months ago and my basic question is there gonna be consideration of a ward system? They say pardon? What kind of system? Ward. A ward system. Oh, okay. W-A-R-D stuff. I can answer. Yeah, yeah. That'd be great, thanks, yeah. Yes, they are gonna be considering that. Megan, you're the liaison. Yes. Okay, do you know what the rough timeline is for like when I'll report back on it or sign any of the discussions to date or? Next spring, it will not be until I would imagine after March, I would imagine. I thought there was an overall deadline of some time for the Charter Committee to come back to address this issue because it's been going on a while. No, no, it just started. We've had I think two or three meetings only. And I think the deadline is next summer. Is that right, Jesse? Yeah. Yes, and actually if you go onto the Charter Committee agenda for this week on the city's website, it has our timeline linked to that agenda so you can see how they've developed the work plan. All right, good. All right, I'll keep an eye on that there on the timeline. Thanks very much, appreciate it. Thank you, Dan. Are there any other comments? Yes. Please come down and tell us your name and what the issue is. I'm Kayla Moore. I'm, I don't wanna take up too much time but I do wanna just follow up on recent emails to the city council regarding the recommendation in the cap to ban gas-powered leaf blowers. This is an important issue because these machines really do have enormous and outsize impact on our health and the environment. Studies have shown that just 30 minutes of leaf blowing emits the same amount of pollution as a pickup truck driving from Texas to Alaska. That's insane. That's 3,900 miles of driving for one half hour of leaf blowing. And there are other studies that have backed this up. It's not just one. So the EPA, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the National Institute of Health Sciences, the American Long Association, and others have all issued statements about the harm associated with these machines. Hundreds of other cities and towns have also taken action. Banning them does not present an undue burden on anyone. Gas-powered leaf blowers and string trimmers are not essential. They're not like lawnmowers, which some may consider essential. But just the gas-powered leaf blowers and string trimmers alone, people can do without or they can use the electric ones. They're not that expensive to replace. And I understand that most of the recommendations in the cap will understandably take some time to put into place. This is one of those actions that can actually be adopted relatively quickly. Doing so will have an immediate and meaningful impact on our quality of life, our health, and the environment. I hope you'll put this item on the agenda for discussion and upcoming meeting. Thank you. Thank you very much. Are there any other comments from the public? Ray? I would just simply like to support what Kayla said. There was a small group of us that had quite a few discussions about this and we're all in on this. We think it's easy to do. It's important to do and it should be done as quickly as possible if the city charter authorizes such an action. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Any other comments? Yes. Thank you. I'm Susan Saperstein. I live at 36 Pheasant Way in South Burlington. I'm here to support what Kayla said and want to follow up from a personal perspective about more of a emotional perspective about these machines as living in a neighborhood where they seem to have been proliferated tremendously over the past decade. They are incredibly loud and fume spewing. They blast through the neighborhood creating a severe impact as far as quality of life. It's impossible to talk outside. The fumes escape over to throughout the neighborhood. They just today there was a two-person crew working across the street from my home. Impossible to work outside while this crew was working. We ended up putting on noise protectors and curtailing what we had to do. So it's really in addition to the environmental and climate change impacts, it's a quality of life issue for the community. I also as a family practice physician, I find it heartbreaking and alarming to watch crews working without hearing protection and fume protection as far as their health risks. And I think it's time that we stand up and stop this unnecessary and harmful trend. I urge the city council to act on the issue for the health, safety, environmental reasons that have been discussed. Thanks. Thank you very much. Anyone else? Yes, Mike Cole. I think this is really an interesting proposal that has been put before you today. It does mesh with what's in the cap. And I see now that it's what we called low-hanging fruit and I think it's something that can be implemented quite quickly if the council has the will to find a way of passing an ordinance similar to what's been done in Burlington and a lot of other communities around the US and in some cases statewide. And I don't think it's a great hardship to change from gas to battery electric. The difference in price, I looked at it recently for myself, was about $20 for a $450 leaf blower. So I support very strongly what Caleb Moore and Susan Safflissine have said this evening and urge the council to try and do something about it. Great. Thank you. Are there any other comments? Okay, seeing none, we will move on to item five, councilor's announcements and reports on committee assignments. Why don't we go to the internet first? Megan, do you have any? You gave us a little update on the charter committee, so. Yeah, our next meeting is this Wednesday at four and the committee has received as has the council a letter from former school board directors in support of increasing the number of school board directors from five to seven. So I know that the charter review committee will be interested to know what the council's feelings on that matter. I don't know if this is an appropriate time for any discussion on that or just simply a report and we have to wait till a future meeting to discuss. Well, we probably can't take action, but if someone has just. So Megan, Dr. Childs has indicated that she wants to give an update to the charter committee on Wednesday about the conversation the school board had. So I think it would be worth hearing from that at the charter committee and then potentially bring it to council. Is that acceptable? Sure, sure. Okay, good. So that, keep going. No, I was just gonna say that's basically it. Well, I guess the last meeting, it was also kind of curtailed. We're gonna be hearing from the planning commission tonight regarding their expressed desire not to increase the number of planning commissioners. So I will hold off on that discussion, but that was something that the charter review committee had discussed at its last meeting and received then the report from the planning commission and they, I think will be very, very interested in knowing our discussion later tonight. So I just, we'll put that little teaser out there for later this evening if you all can hang on. Okay, thank you. Tim, do you have any updates? Yes, I have a couple. So I attended the BCA meeting on the 20th where we gave the report on the inspection of 124 Technology Park and we voted on the final value for the assessment and turn that over to the city clerk. And then we also did some more election training and review on the machines. And if you didn't know, tomorrow is election day. So your vote counts, please vote. And then I also attended the pension advisory committee. We had a new representative of SEI there. I think his name, his last name was Capella, I can't remember his first name. He was taking Pat Blizzard's place I think for this one time. As you can imagine, the drop in the overall stock indexes have affected lots of pension plans around the country, including ours. But there was a little bit of a rally the day before the meeting. So he said, if we went and took the snapshot right now it would be better by this much. So, but the committee decided not to take any action. Eric Shea with the, from the actuarial group was also there talking about all the aspects and giving an update on the number of participants. And I think there was a recommendation that we might want to ask to have a second citizen person added to the committee. And so I think that we're going to take that forward. Okay. And that's all I have. Oh, plus the fact that I ran the last city council meeting in record time. So try and beat that. Maybe the meeting was abbreviated. I don't know. All I know is that I was out of there. Lickety split. Right. Okay. Good enough. Matt, do you have? For quick announcements, the first two, very happy. I want to congratulate the South Burlington division one high school. But also the field hockey team for coming so close to beating CVU and the championship game. And then of course, to recognize the boy soccer team that did win the championship yesterday at Norwich University in Northfield. Fantastic job by our local teams. Also want to talk about just how happy I was to see dogs in the Wheeler Park. I mean, it really all the work that so many people especially the committee for common area dogs put into making that happen and all the staff. It's just, it's wonderful to see dogs running free for those of people. And there are many of you as Dan pointed out, including myself that don't have a yard and need. This is the only place where our dogs can run without a leash. So it's just wonderful to see that. And point taken Dan, that the committee for common area dogs, which I am the liaison does know that Farrell Park should not be neglected. That it is an important park for all the families and the dogs that live in that area. And there have been small improvements, very small, but more needs to be done. And I think that committee knows that and I certainly recognize that as well. And the last thing just to tag off of what Tim said, it is election day tomorrow. Some of us will be up at 6 a.m. at the polling place doing our duty with the PCA. We'll be up before six. We're supposed to be at the polling place. We'll be up at 5.58. We'll be at the polling place at six. But I think it's important to know, and I know most people that are listening or tuning in probably they're already civically engaged. But maybe you could tell a friend or a family member that polling places have changed because of redistricting where you went back in March or two years ago may not be where you go tomorrow. You may be going to city hall if you live in certain areas. So please be patient with that. And the other thing is everyone was mailed a ballot. You should bring your ballot to your polling place. That is your official ballot. Now, if you've lost it or you didn't get it, you can still vote, but it's a little bit of a, you need to register, file a missing ballot report. There's a process. So remember, if you haven't voted, bring your ballot that was mailed to you and bring it to your polling place and make sure you know where you're going. That's it. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Tom is in here and I don't have anything to report. I've been away on a wonderful trip, but I'm back and fully engaged. And I did attend a natural resources and open space committee meeting or conservation committee meeting the other night, but I don't think there really was anything to report. They're working hard on different items, but nothing is concluded at this point to bring forward. Okay. Jesse. Great. Thanks. So you've election day, bring your ballots, vote, polling places, yes, all of that. Also for that reason, the senior center is the polling place for those who now vote at city hall. So the senior center is closed actually for the whole week to enable voting, set up and take down and then deep cleaning. So just heads up about that. I wanted the council to know, I did meet with let's grow kids last week. They had some really interesting ideas if the council should choose to allocate ARPA funds to support childcare capacity. So I'll bring those forward to you at your November 30th meeting. They also outlined how the city as a whole could sign on to their campaign. So I will also bring that forward based on past conversations with the council. Wheeler dog park is opening. I do want to give you a heads up that the FY24 budget development is proving very challenging. COLA right now, September to September is 7.2%. As we all know, costs of goods and services is increasing. Staff have identified a number of areas where we have not kept up with our capacity to fund core services, resources. And we are trying to build out some recommendations around recently adopted policies, specifically the climate action plan. So we are looking at bringing you on December 5th, several different options for the council to consider during the budget process. But just to heads up those numbers are going to be bigger than in past years. Also given that CCPSA, the Jenning County Public Safety Authority is struggling, the board is struggling to figure out how we move forward in a year, where budget numbers are so big and where we know we need added financial capacity to start up because we have to start up, we have to stand up a dispatch center while all of our other dispatch centers are still operating. So there are added costs associated with that. So I'm going to put that on your next council agenda to give you a full update on that. And then finally, I just wanted to thank the council and the community our executive team is down two staff at the moment with a third coming at the end of the month. We are holding it down, but struggling. So thank you very much for your patience as we get through and fill those vacancies. That's all I got. Okay, thank you. Consent agenda, there are eight items. The disbursements, approval of minutes from September 19th, 27th, a joint meeting with the planning commission October 3rd and October 17th city council meeting, receiving the September financials, approving the ARPA housing trust fund grant agreement to summit at O'Brien farm and authorized the city manager to execute that, approved the loan documents related to the Vermont community development program grant award to summit at O'Brien and authorized the city manager to sign all related documents, approval of road impact fee credit requests for construction at 303 market street and 112 garden street, approved application for a US department of transportation, strengthening mobility and revolutionizing transportation grant to pilot adaptive technology and finally authorized the city manager to execute a replacement, a revocable offer of dedication related to the O'Brien farm road. So I would entertain a motion for approval. Move that we approve the consent agenda. Is there a second? Is there any discussion? Yeah. Okay, Matt? Could I just call out a couple of things if that's okay? One is, and I know this is accurate. I mean, I'm assuming it's accurate, but it just blew me away when Chief Locke that they've maintained a minimum staffing 24 seven for the entire first quarter of the fiscal year. Great. But the members of the fire department worked 4,000 hours of overtime and last fiscal year, they worked a total of 6,000 hours of overtime. That's a remarkable strain on an essential workforce. And as we think about budgets and the COLO going up and new positions, new building inspectors, I'd like to just call out our fire department and for the tremendous amount of work that they do above and beyond to make sure we're safe. I just couldn't believe that number. And I expect that that's what we're gonna have and those costs associated with that safety, public safety is what we're gonna have for the next three quarters. That's astounding. And thank you to Chief Locke and all the firefighters for all the work they do. The second thing I'd like to call out is D and H. I may be getting a little retrospective, a little sentimental here, but I remember being a young development, young member of the development review board when the O'Brien family brought forth the proposal to bring one of the largest developments that South Brilington has ever had. And it was a massive task that Ray Albrecht at the time and, no, Ray, Ray, shoot, I've already forgotten his name. The lair. Ray Belaire. Ray Belaire and Paul and the team at the development review board seven years ago when we looked at that spot of land and now we're seeing two major affordable, big A affordable housing units and the new road, the old farm road that will be diverted. That came about because of development review board, city staff, the O'Brien family and the neighbors agreeing what would be best for the traveling public. I'm just happy. I'm happy and I'd like to call out when things work and work well, we should recognize it. So thank you. Okay. Any other comments or thoughts? Call out to the police force as well. They are working under staffed and have had quite a month as we know. We sure have. And going to 12 hours must not be fun either. Right. Okay. Well, if you're ready for the vote, all in favor of approving the consent agenda as presented signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Okay. That passes. 4-0. Item seven. This is, oh, well only four minutes late. That's pretty good. Warned for, if we hadn't had the call out, we've, I know. Matt is going to recuse himself. Item seven, eight and nine. Item seven, eight and nine. So it's not just me. Tom is gonna come and we have Megan and Tim online. So we do have three counselors here at the moment. So we have a 7 p.m. public hearing on an ordinance to regulate fuels for heating and hot water and new construction. And Colin McNeil, our city attorney has the floor. Would you like a motion to go into public hearing first? Oh, yes, I'm sorry. Thank you. Would you move that please? Yes. So I move that we go into a public hearing on an ordinance to regulate fuels for heating and hot water and new construction. Second. Okay, any discussion? All in favor? Signify I'll be saying aye. Aye. Aye. We are now in public hearing and Colin, you may take over. Thank you. So we're here on a second reading of your public heating ordinance as we've been calling it. We're open for an open hearing. One suggestion I make and I should make is that under our charter it requires for the public hearing, we either read the ordinance in full or you wave the reading and just read it by title and that's required by vote. So I would just recommend that you take a quick vote just to recommend that we I title. We just open the public hearing on the title and wave the public reading of the entire ordinance. I'll move that. Second. Okay. So all in favor of opening the hearing under the title only, we have to vote on it, right? Yeah. By title, signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Okay. So the public hearing is open. Thank you. So this is an draft ordinance that you've considered a few times now. You've taken public comments a couple of times. We've made amendments. The last reading was about a month ago with the first reading. I think the second first reading. So it's been before you. It is an ordinance that is similar to the ordinance that was adopted by the city of Burlington to address heating systems. We took it a step further based on your recommendation to also have it address hot water heating systems. But this ordinance allows for a waiver if it's based on economic grounds and it also allows for a two year waiver for multifamily, commercial and industrial from the hot water heating provisions and requirements of the ordinance. It would go into effect in February. So there'd be a runway of about three months if you were to pass it tonight. But it would require all new buildings that are applied for permits or have a, whose permit becomes complete after February 15th. So any new building that is already permitted, this would not apply to. It only applies to new construction that occurs after 2015. All right, sorry, February 15th of 2023. Re-enter your access code followed by the. What was that? Oh, okay. It also includes you, if it were to pass you would appoint a building inspector who would undertake a process where there'd be, if there is a new building they would apply and get a certificate that would allow them to demonstrate that they are in compliance with this ordinance based on a self-certification model and based on that self-certification, they would get a certificate from the building inspector that would allow them to get a certificate of occupancy. Okay. The hearing is open. Is there anyone from the public? Oh, we've got on TV land. Is Lori Smith would like to make a comment? Good evening. Can you hear me? Yes, we can. Thank you. Great. Well, thank you. And thank you for all you guys are doing. And I just wanna say that on this today which is the second day of the COP 27 hearing where the head of the committee said we are on a highway to climate hell that this is none too soon to act on this ordinance. And I encourage you guys to take a huge step tonight towards helping us reduce our CO2 impact on our climate and improving the quality of our environment in South Burlington. So thank you. And I hope that you are able to vote on this tonight and make it happen. Thank you. Is there anyone in the audience who would like to speak? Present. Michael. It was a point of clarification, Colin, where you said new construction after the 15th of February, is it ordered? Do you mean newly, new permits after the 15th of February? Sorry if it was misinterpreted. We referred to in the ordinance, it refers to new buildings but it will be newly permitted after February, on or after February 15th. Okay, thank you. Anyone else in the audience? Yes. Please come down, give us your name and I'm assuming. Yeah. And see someone up there too. But if you'd like, I'll go ahead. Go ahead. Oh, great. Yeah, good evening. How about you first? Sorry. Yeah, I'll try to make these as quick as I can. I know you might have a couple of speakers and you've got a packed agenda there but I'm Dylan Jamathis. I'm the Director of Public Affairs for VGS for Moncast Systems. And I just want to start by thanking the counselors and staff for their attention to the ordinance. Over the past couple of months, I know we've corresponded a few times via email and otherwise and just really appreciate the conversations we've had and folks from the community have brought to us. It's been a good productive dialogue so far but just real quick, as you know, VGS is headquartered down on Swift Street. We are a large thermal energy provider here in the community with about 7,500 residences and businesses that we serve. And we are the only fully regulated utility in the thermal sector in the state. So we work regularly in this area and we're rapidly evolving our business as quick as we can to try to provide, first of all, weatherization to reduce energy usage, to increase access to the latest in-home innovations that will hopefully provide our customers with efficient solutions in this space and then to displace fossil fuels with cleaner alternatives. And I just want to call out a few things here and just give a little bit of feedback on the final draft here as you weigh it. But we have taken these proactive steps in recognition that the product that we have served over the past 50 or so years and that we serve today, fossil fuels, has significant climate impacts. And to this end, we are focused on trying to align our actions with a statewide energy policy, the Global Warming Solutions Act, which some may be familiar with and I know has been considered locally. As we've worked with regulators to try to expand the scope of what we do, we are really pushing this to the limit at the statewide level. And that includes displacing fossil gas in our system with increasing volumes of biomethane while trying to develop renewable alternatives such as green hydrogen over at the Global Foundries Campus and soon geothermal energy, which will be launching some projects in the near future. We were the first only gas-only utility in the country to begin installing electric heat pump water heaters, which hopefully will be of service should this ordinance be adopted. And we are actively piloting ways to install heat pumps alongside or in place of gas appliances in the near future. So I just wanna step back for a moment and say that all of this is happening with statewide energy policy as our guide. So whether it be this ordinance proposal or future charter changes that have been advocated for, we would just ask you to consider the way that local regulations impact implementation of those statewide climate objectives under the Global Warming Solutions Act, specifically that creation of multiple policies or a tapestry of municipal policies beyond South Burlington may not be aligned or consistent with some of those state goals. And so even if the ordinance before you is intended to speed up decarbonization at the local level here in South Burlington, which we commend, there is no guarantee that other localities in the area will not use their own municipal policies to incentivize the continued use of fossil fuels or conflicting thermal energy policies. So I just wanna call that out. The statewide approach to energy policy is very important as a regulated utility. We work regularly with the Vermont Public Utility Commission with the Department of Public Service and we'll continue to do so as we continue these conversations. Just the second point here that I wanna raise and then I'll get off the mic is that related to overall affordability in this moment. We certainly know that energy costs have increased recently. Everyone's feeling the pinch with inflation. And in earlier comments, we flagged our concern that the ordinance proposal could drive up costs for South Burlington residents and businesses. But we also have noted that thermal regulated utilities, so VGS, we try to follow lease cost planning principles. These are what we work with our regulators. And essentially this ordinance would focus on setting a performance standard, which we feel we can adapt to. And generally we appreciate the flexibility provided under it. But at the same time, as we approach lease cost with energy, we just start sensitive to any cost that could be imposed at the local level and how that might present challenges over time for cost pressures. So thinking about inflation, the price squeezes that folks are feeling. We just asked you to bear that in mind as this conversation continues. We know it may toward charter changes or other proposals. But for the moment, there's a lot of folks here tonight. So I just wanna thank you for hearing us out for considering our opinions. And also for taking some of the technical input. I know that we had a productive conversation around the building codes and otherwise. So thank you for that. And we really welcome the opportunity to participate in any future conversations if we can be of assistance. So thank you for that and appreciate it. Good luck wrapping up tonight. Thanks. Thank you. Mark, Abrams, or did you wanna speak? Your mic isn't turned on. So I think you're muted, Mark. Sometimes- At the bottom of your screen there should be a mic icon that you can turn on. If you tap the bottom, sometimes the icon shows up. That was your video icon, but now we need your voice one. Mark, if you hover over the go to meeting screen and click on the bottom where there are no picture boxes, you might see something that says mic with a cross-off. If you click on that, you can unmute yourself. Actually, maybe I can send you a request to unmute. Okay. Did I do it? You're live. Not used, there's a whole new format. Thank you very much. You're welcome. I've been a psychotherapist since the 70s. Late 60s, had some extensive gardens, wanted to homestead for quite a while, and dreamt at that time of biogas usage, all that manure going to waste, and all those things that simply makes sense, but they were different. I was treatment director at Maple Leaf Farm in the mid-70s, and I'm also struck by the need to integrate emotion and thinking. And let me first get clear. The ordinance basically is forbidding new construction to use heating oil or natural gas, or I suppose LP gas, in other words, being banned. Yes, that's correct. Okay. Or at least 85% of your heat, right? Right, right. We are certainly deeply chronically dependent on fossil fuels. We've been for long, long time. Certainly it stands as a form of addiction. Alcoholism is a very, I think that stands as a very good parallel. We know that in the chronic, severely addicted alcoholic drinking way too much for long periods, I think in the old days, to help that person withdraw, very old days, they would stop taking the toxic substance, precipitously, and many would die. They learned, we learned in mental health and psychiatry. I'm not a psychiatrist, but medical profession learned that much as emotionally, we wanna get as far away from the destructive substance as possible. And a lot of times it's emotionally driven. I think there's a certain amount of over emotion with our whole energy situation and pollution and global warming and all the prices we pay. But I've seen many examples over time, societally, when decisions are made relatively quickly driven by a high proportion of emotion and not as much due diligence and wider research than in hindsight shows was called for. So you get a severely addicted alcoholic, they get medical attention, they're withdrawn slowly under medical supervision, sometimes medication has to be a thoughtful process so you defeat the purpose and destroy. They're destroying themselves, but the immediate opposite pole is not the answer. I think that model holds for a good number of things. Life is unfortunately a lot more complicated than I find convenient, but what are you gonna do? I was struck, I don't know if it was about four years ago hearing from common sources, the United Nations, which has been and recently as well, very, very alarmed and about fossil fuel influences and global warming. They issued a statement at however at that time, the report that asserted that no matter what we do, we're past the point of we can't reverse it. I think I'm being as close to it as I can. It cannot be reversed, but so they asserted that. Now, we need to do everything sensible, saving, not buttoning up all the buildings, building as efficiently as possible, many, many things to be done, but given that they said that, getting too extreme, I think will be cause for serious harm, regret and hardship in some ways. Then we have- So can you kind of get to your point, or is your thesis that this- I wanna cite a couple more, I think major things that have not gotten that much wide press, and I think they deserve it. You'll remember perhaps that Al Gore's book was quickly adopted in Great Britain and used as a textbook, I guess, for many thousands of children. And it was documented that many, many children worldwide were not all, but were subjected to severe anxiety, depression, sleeplessness, variously. Then the government, somebody in parliament called for analyzing, studying the text itself, and the finding was that it contained 144, or is that inaccuracies, distortions, fabrications, and certainly truths, but it was withdrawn from the school system. That's an example of an extreme, and it's been extremely influential with little to counter it. I also heard the co-founder of NOAA, the National Oceanographic, and I believe Aeronautic Federal Organization, very knowledgeable seasoned individual who asserted, who stated that you're looking way, looking back at all the weather patterns as far back in history as possible, that it's the nature of the planet to go through extremes, and now we've been adding more to the problem and we should thoughtfully eliminate and curb to the greatest possible degree, but I had the strongest sense that to just ban, you know, we wanna feel good, we're all very, very anxious. I think it borders, frankly, we're all friends, we're all adults. I think there's a hysterical tone to this proposal, and I think it should be tabled for further study. I really, I ask you strongly, it can always be instituted, but I'd hate to see South Burlington bring regret and possible embarrassment upon itself. So that's what I wanted to share with you, and I appreciate it, and I ask you please, you can always do it. It'll be very hard to undo, and I ask you to think extremely carefully and blend emotion, get the right mix of proper respect for these problems with deep and wider research and thought. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Helen? Yes. Helen? Yes. I just wanna make sure that Mr. Abrams heard that it's only for newly permitted buildings. I understand, yes. Okay, all right, thank you. Is there anyone else who would like to speak? Sarah? Doc? Thank you. Yeah, I'll be brief. I just want to acknowledge what Lori said earlier and endorse this ordinance going forward. I think we're obligated to do as much as we can at the local level as well as the state level and national and internationally to solve these problems. I don't think we're meant to feel comfortable about this. This is an existential situation. So, and I hardly think that this is a cold turkey approach when we're talking, as Megan pointed out, only about new construction. This, it is in fact de facto going to be easing into this way of thinking going forward. Thank you, that's all I have to say. Great, yes. I take a little interest in energy. Oh, name please. Cindy, Cindy Freeman. I take a little interest in energy myself and recently looked at Green Mountain Power and the energy mix that they have. And 40% comes from the Seabrook in New Hampshire, nuclear power, 40% comes from hydro electricity, which is wonderful that we have that. So it's very clean. But in 2032, I believe, we will no longer have Seabrook nuclear energy. So, when we plug in and we have these lights and we have all of this, we have to have it coming from a source. And at this point, we only have about 7% coming from renewable energy. I think that that's very important before we put restrictions on new buildings to know how going forward, we will have that energy mix. The other thing, I have spoken with an engineer and he has said that our grid system can't hold like all the heat pumps, if we all go to heat pump. And by the way, I haven't chosen to go to the heat pump because I don't turn on my air conditioner in the summer. I use very little energy. I'm trying to be very green. Up until this point, we use natural gas ourselves. We have our furnace going with natural gas. And we haven't turned on our heater until tonight because we know it will be cold. And I'm just saying that a lot of people in general have that philosophy are green because for economic reasons. And I just think that the ordinances talk about energy coming from electricity and coming from wood and pellets. And that's natural gas actually emits less carbon dioxide than wood and wood pellets. And I think that Vermont gas is also moving toward more of a renewable energy source. And I know that the ordinance also spoke about that, that methane and so on. So I'm just, I get a little concerned because like for instance, I spoke with someone in Switzerland and they're with the energy source and so on. And you're all hooked into electricity. It depends on the source, right? Electricity itself is not clean. And it comes, it's not clean. You have to have the energy sources. We're very fortunate in Vermont. But I just would like to know if there's any one in your field here at the city council that can actually speak on that matter about well, where will that energy mix come from if we're asking everyone in the new development to actually have a renewable electricity? That is a question. Yeah, we're really here to take public comment, not ever. But if you're about to make a decision, you should also be able to answer some of those questions because that's a big decision. I don't disagree. I think we've heard a fair amount of information prior to this. Okay, and what have you heard? Because I'd like the public to know what you've heard. Yeah, and I've read the ordinance as well. And I'm just saying, have you also, have you understood where our energy comes from? When we say we plug in and we get the electricity, it's not. Okay, well, I just, well, I just, right. But if we're going to create this, so if we're gonna answer it, no, no, well, you're a public. Cindy, I think the purpose of this is a public hearing and we can get back to answering questions once we hear from the public. And your question is, aren't I the public though? Yes, but you're, there's other people in the public. But is there, can you answer that question? Sure. So the process here is the council hears from the community hears their feedback, closes the public hearing, and then they discuss among themselves. So that's where we are in the governance process right now is just hearing from all the members of the community. And then after they close the public hearing, after they close the public hearing, they will have conversations amongst themselves. Among themselves. In public about what they want to do to move the ordinance forward or get additional information or share additional information. Okay, sounds good. Thank you. Anyone else in the audience? Matt, is there anyone else in the? I have a quick comment stimulated by the last speaker. Take additional comments like that. I'd like to give everyone a chance. And then if we have time, we'll go back. Oh, okay, sorry. I thought the public, I didn't hear anybody, so. No, I asked Matt Coda to come up to the podium. Thank you, Chair Really. Matt Coda, Wine Sap Lane, South Burlington, recusing myself on this issue and the next two items. I own a company called Meadow Hill and I run a trade association management company. And one of my contracts are with the Vermont Vehicle and Automotive Distributors Association, the Vermont Fuel Dealers Association and the heating and cooling contractors of Vermont. I'm just gonna read you just two short snippets from letters and then I'll leave them with you. New England will not have sufficient natural gas to meet power supply needs for the region in the event of a severe cold spell this winter. This represents a serious public health and safety threat. This letter was written by Joseph R. Nolan Jr., the President and Chief Executive Officer of Eversource Energy, the largest electric utility in New England. It was written to President Biden, distributed on October 27th. If there is another letter, if there is an extended cold snap, there is a high probability of rolling blackouts this winter. Last January, there are many days where 25% of electricity produced in New England came from diesel fuel. There are multiple plants in New England that run on dual fuels. They run on natural gas. When it's available, they can switch to diesel fuel when natural gas is not available. For the full month of January, 2022, 11% of the electricity produced in New England came from diesel fuel. That's written by the CEO of Groton Electric Light, distributed to all their customers. This is a serious policy that we're undergoing here. We're transforming our energy sector to move away from fossil fuels to electricity. And there are consequences. There are real consequences. Right now, we have historic lows for distillate. It's jet fuel, kerosene, diesel fuel, dyed fuel that goes into farm tractors, and heating oil. Why? Because it's going to Europe. It's going to Western Europe. We need that diesel fuel to produce the power to keep these lights on this winter. So when we think about putting more of our energy load on electricity, we do need to consider not where it comes from on the sunniest day, but where it comes from on the coldest night in January. And that is from natural gas. And when there's not enough natural gas, it comes from diesel fuel, of which we have historic lows right now in storage. However, in the event you do pass this, I'd like to ask a clarifying question to city attorney. I am confused, and I have read the ordinance several times, about the fines that are associated with someone who's in violation. There's two sections that deal with fines. Any person who violates the provision of this ordinance shall be subject to a civil penalty of up to $800 per day for each day that such violation continues. And then there's another set of fines that appear to be much lighter. And this as yet to be named building inspector that has not been hired or money allocated for. When they issue those fines, I assume they have some sort of ability to waive them based on needs. So for instance, if my light bill was shut off because I couldn't pay the power bill, I built a new home and it's all electric heat. And then I call up a contractor and say, get me a Renai or a Maudine, move air, hot air, so my house doesn't freeze. Does that contractor, is that contractor liable if they don't get a permit? If they install a fossil fuel Maudine or Renai, just to keep a house warm. We're all gonna turn on our furnaces tonight and we're all gonna use fossil fuels. But if I build a new home and I meet the standard of the ordinance, but then I don't provide enough mini splits in order to provide the heat load or the electric bill is so expensive that I have to find another alternative source of heat. Who's liable for a fine? What if it goes 90 days through the winter, $800 a day times 90, that's $72,000 just to stay warm with the same rights that we all have here who have current existing homes? Of course, I don't want you to pass this ordinance, but I would like some clarification. If you do, how it's gonna be enforced, who pays the fine and how it could be waived? Thank you. And I'll leave these letters with you. Okay, thank you. Anyone else in the audience wish to make a statement? How about at home? Mark, you need to say something in addition? No, Lee? Yes. Let's keep it to a minute, please. Donya, a couple of things. I heated quite a few winters with wood. I had a firewood business when I left Goddard and graduated. And I had the capability now in South Burlington and it reminded me when it came up here and when I read the original ordinance, I like to go out and walk any time of day or night. And wood smoke, I imagine pellets, I don't know pellets. Wood smoke is not a healthy thing and it can disperse quite a bit, but I'm 73, I've been in proximity to wood smoke in winter time and it's not good. Also, this most recent other paper issue had a letter in it. I thought very interesting about, we're written by a man who seems quite knowledgeable about heat pumps. I don't know much about heat pumps, but I recommend that letter to everybody. He gets granular about, it's just shining a magnifying glass on pros and cons and difficulties and something, I think everybody really should read that. I know it's becoming a hot thing and he cited feet of clay concerning it. I think again, I think the whole ordinance in many ways is quite an overreach. Thank you very much. Thank you. Are there any other comments that public would like to make? So I guess I would entertain a motion to close the public hearing. So moved. And second? Second. All in favor? Thank you, Vice President. Aye. Aye. So the public hearing is closed. So council members, what are your thoughts from hearing the public? Maybe one question a Collin could address is the confusion of the fines or bring some clarity to that? I can try. I think that the response to the question would be that if the heating sources change such that the primary heating source is no longer renewable as defined by the ordinance, the city would expect that the homeowner builder would file an application and commit and file a certification that the heating fuel system has changed. If they are switching to natural gas, they would be or some sort of renaissance they would be in violation of the ordinance and would potentially be subject to fines. But this is a self-certification, self-certifying ordinance. We would rely on the public that if they were to change their heating system that they comply with the ordinance. So we're not gonna have a heat police knocking on doors. Tom. So on that thread, do you have a thought on the liability? Would it be the person that made the change or would it be the homeowner? And then I remember a call on this other piece that I think was a thread to pull on was in our other ordinances, we did have ways for people to go through community restorative restorative justice to waive fees. Do you see any of those to envelop these types of fees if they do have a need that they just can't that they can validate that they can't pay $72,000 or whatever it totals to? Absolutely. I think the city is always in favor of other restorative justice practices and waiving fees if people can't afford to pay any number of, the goal here is to bring people in compliance with the ordinance. But it's not a punitive measure. And I think that's the intention of all the fees that we have in our ordinances. So I think- And that's called out in section 10, the restorative justice. Yes. Liability, I think would have to, in many situations would come down to the owner of the property. Other thoughts from council members? I'll just add, I don't quite understand how Seabrook is no longer gonna be providing energy to the state of Vermont. Is someone aware of the, Tim, I can't hear you. Can you hear me now? Yes, yes. Oh, that's what was wrong before we started. I think what Cindy was referring to is that the license to operate Seabrook expires in early 2030. And so the question I think, it's probably on the minds of ISO New England who governs the power grid across the whole region is what is gonna happen to Seabrook? Will they recertify it? Will they extend its life? I don't know. And I think that's a really good question to ask. I haven't heard a lot of angst about it in the energy community at all, but it's a legitimate question to ask. So go ahead. Okay, yeah. Because, yeah, I just did a quick search. So it's incorrect that it's been renewed through 2050? I don't know that. Okay, cause that's what I found online in a report. And I have been in touch with Ethan about the wood chip question. Ethan Goldman, who's the chair of the Climate Action Task Force. And first of all, he doesn't believe that many new structures here in South Burlington would be using wood chips. He agrees that there is not clear markings on what wood chips come from actual debris and are in fact not adding additional carbon than is already being added as opposed to wood chips that are made expressly to be used in the biomass heating. Burnesses. So that is an issue. Ethan was of the opinion and he is an expert in the field of the opinion that it would not be necessarily significant. And he doesn't think that many new homes come on in South Burlington that use wood chips. And I've also been looking into renewable gas, had some conversations with a specific member of the public very concerned about the need for our food and agricultural industry to also modernize. And I have been persuaded by Ethan that having a diversity is a positive overall. Yes, if we were all to go and get heat pumps, our grid could not sustain it. But we will not see that happen in the next year. I mean, it will take much, much longer. We have time, I think, and whoever's on the council will have time to react if this ordinance is no longer viable, just like the fines would possibly be going through the community justice center. I would imagine that there would also be a response to repeal or to amend an ordinance. So at this point, I am willing to go ahead and knowing that we have very active members of the public who are following this and as we all should be I do think that the climate emergency is here, it's now. And I do trust Ethan Goldman who's saying that this will help. And this is not something that is the final step. It is a step of many steps that will need to be taken into the future. Okay, any other comments, Tim? Yeah, so in my discussions with various developers and from the recent construction that we've seen of large block apartment buildings, the use of mini splits is here to stay. And that means the dependence on heat pumps for heating and cooling apartment buildings is, I think that the developers have gone down that road and that's where they wanna go. So in some ways, this ordinance is kind of redundant. I mean, they're already pushing that direction. Heat pump technology exists today that meets the needs. It's going to keep improving as years go on. The technology is well adopted by the development community for this type of activity. We heard from I think two architects at a previous public hearing who said that that's all they design in now is in heat pumps. And I think with our two year waiver for the heating of domestic water, I think that's a fair thing to do waiting for a technology to catch up if it can based upon the kinds of demands that a building will go through at 6.30 in the morning when everybody wants to take a shower. So I think this is our chance as a community to codify the types of changes that we need to ensure that everybody is doing their part to stop burning fossil fuels as much as we can while we make the transition to something that's cleaner. And right now electricity is clean and we are fortunate as I think Cindy said that GMP is 40% Seabrook and 40% Hydro Quebec. So I support this ordinance. I think it's the way to go. We're putting a stake in the ground. We're gonna hammer it in. If we need to move it around as we go down the road I think that we'll be willing to do that. But it's important that we show a commitment by the city of South Burlington to our residents about the quality of our life within the city and without the city as well as we attempt to burn less fossil fuels and have less of an impact in generating CO2 that goes to our atmosphere, period. We all have to be on that same train going down that track with that same commitment. And this is the one thing that gets us going down that way. So I'm off my soapbox now. Thank you. Thank you. A dump. I agree with everything that Councillor Emery and Councillor Barrett said. I didn't see anything that I disagree with and I just want to carkin back to a couple of comments that Ms. Freeman raised and also Dylan's very eloquent remarks. Dylan, Jim Batista from Vermont Gas. I think we as a city need to keep in touch and follow what the state is doing and making sure that we're on the same track to have consistency across our local municipalities so that we're doing more across the whole state of Vermont. But this is a very reasonable, well-phased, modest step that I support taking and I'm going to vote yes on this ordinance. Thank you. Any other comments or thoughts? Having spent for myself, having spent a lot of time listening to the conversations and reading a lot of the materials that the task force looked at, I am very comfortable with taking this step forward. I believe it's, it is pretty low-hanging fruit. And I think as technology, as Tim kind of identified or suggested, technology will continue to improve. And I think we will be weaning ourselves off fossil fuels as the decades go by. I think we have to. And this doesn't seem to be an enormous lift for anyone, particularly in light of the fact that builders are doing it without being told they have to. They're doing it on their own. So that suggests to me that it must be cost-effective enough to include in your business plan as a construction company going forward and certainly comfort with the technology. So I will be supporting these ordinances as well. So let's- Hey, Helen, can I say one more thing? Yes, you may. So I think it's important to understand we need to make sure that the energy efficiency codes go hand-in-hand with the type of energy that's used to warm and cool these structures, right? And after I walked up to the new Edgewood development, which used to be called Cider Mill 2, and saw very clearly that they're taking extra steps such as on the outside of the structure, putting on foam board attached to the studs and then hanging the sheathing on outside of that, which is a really important step to prevent the conduction of cold through the sheathing into the frame, which then would get absorbed into the building as well. So I mean, that wasn't done when my house was built 10 years ago, and I wish it were. And I'm hoping that that's the type of construction method that's done throughout the city, because it's probably part of the Stretch Energy Act 250 code now, but just adding another two inches of insulation on the outside of the frame, and then adding the sheathing, and then adding your siding on top of that is a big, it's a big improvement. I'm done. Okay. Well, then we'll move on to item eight, which is if we wish to take action on these ordinances. So, pardon? I don't see language that you want us to use for the motion. Tim, do you have it? You usually get the language. I don't, let me check real quick and see I don't think I received any language. Call it, can you call it? So what would be the right language that you, let's see, we have to use the, don't even have the number. Sure. I would recommend that you move to approve the heating and service water heating systems ordinance as ordained by the city council, and approve it. Okay. So moved. Second. And there's a second. That's one way to do it. Okay. So it's been moved and seconded to approve these ordinances relating to heating and service water heating systems and new buildings. So if you're ready for the vote, all in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Okay. It's a 4-0 vote and Councillor Coda has recused himself from that vote. All right, moving on to item nine. This is the first reading of a land development regulation, LDR-2207 and LDR-2208 to realign zoning districts along Shelburne Road to enable the Tesla company to turn a supermarket into a auto dealership, I guess. Hi, Councillor Lee. Paul Connor, Director of Planning and Zoning, Jessica Loekas, Chair of the Planning Commission is also here virtually. I did want to make one very small correction in the description on the agenda and I apologize for the not being quite clear enough. The description of the agenda describes the enabling auto sales in the vicinity of the former Hannaford and Lowe sites and prohibit auto sales in the area between the cemetery and Lakewood Commons. It's actually between the Citizens Bank and Lakewood Commons. There's a couple of properties north of that that include the current Carter's cars and Freedom Nissan. Those would remain properties that are allowed to have auto sales. So I just wanted to be clear on that. So there are two proposed amendments in front of you. One is to do some realignment of zoning districts along Shelburne Road between the commercial one, residential 15, the commercial one auto and the commercial two district. The net is a fairly similar total amount of land that are in those districts. But the effect would be to allow auto sales further away from Shelburne Road in the current Lowe's site and the former Hannaford site and to prohibit auto sales in the area closer to Shelburne Road in the area of Lark and Terrace, Lakewood Commons and the properties to the north where the city has been putting in its urban design overlay district and supporting housing in those areas. So I don't know, Jessica, if you'd like to add any to that. Sure, this did originate with a specific request from someone who's interested in reusing an existing building for auto sales but was not in the current auto district. As part of our discussion, we felt like we weren't really comfortable with just expanding the amount of area, the amount of land that was designated for auto sales because over the years we've had some discussion about how to make that Shelburne Road corridor more walkable with slower traffic and just having lots more auto sales along that main drag didn't seem like a desirable outcome but knowing that they are businesses that make sense for our community kind of rearranging some of those boundary lines to still allow the same amount of land area, responding to this request for reuse of an existing building, it kind of made a lot of sense to us. And I guess although this is a request from a specific business, we really looked at it kind of holistically and how those commercial districts and higher density residential districts made sense with existing uses in the area. And then these, oh, go ahead, Jessica. Oh, I was going to say, I think I just wanted to just specifically call attention to the map that's in the packet. It's color coded and I think it's relatively clear how the rearranging would occur there. And then the second change just to be fully showing what's included would be to change and add some new uses to be allowed in these districts. So in the commercial two district, which is sort of the southern half of Shelburne Road, it would allow municipal facilities in the future. So what that would do in the very short term is make sure that fire station two remains a permitted use, but it also would enable future municipal uses further south of that. And then the commission reviewed the commercial one auto and the commercial one residential 15 district. They're already fairly similar, but the commission felt that there were some opportunities to make them even more similar with the exception of auto sales with the idea of in the long term, there may be some opportunities to reduce the number of zoning districts that we have in the city. And in the meantime, having distinctions where one district allows for a cultural facility and the one next to it doesn't didn't seem to be making a lot of sense to the commission. So they took a lot of made them a lot more consistent by adding some additional uses into the C1 auto district. The recommended action if the council is ready would be to warn a public hearing for your first meeting in December. At nine o'clock, yeah. So I would entertain a motion to hold a public hearing on the proposed amendments to land development regulations LDR2207 and LDR2208 on Monday, December 5th, 2022 at 9 p.m. I know our, not at 8, this says 8.30, but we. So we're moving, so on December 5th, we will have three public hearings. It's also the night we do our budget presentation, which we are doing first on the agenda. So we're rearranging the public hearings a little bit to ensure that the TIF public hearing goes first as that will be on the ballot on how many days, assuming you move it forward. So we wanna put that that closer to the budget presentation. Okay, so I'll make that motion that we hold public hearing on the land development regulation change we just discussed for December 5th at 9 p.m. Is there a second? Check. Okay, is there a discussion? Discussion. The point. Yes, I have a question. Tom? Tim, do you mind? I'm sorry, go ahead, Tom. Okay, real quick. The point of clarification, has the planning commission heard from the landowners or did they at all, were they at all involved or is that really where this process now is by us warning it that anybody in this district and adjacent will be warned duly through newspaper ads and that we will hear from them at this meeting? We, the planning commission heard from some landowners during their public hearing. The, we're aware that the initiators of the request, Tesla have been in touch with the property owner that they have, but we presume that they're having their own internal communications on that it will be an additional opportunity for anybody throughout this corridor to be talking with you or presenting at the council hearing. We know that it's been covered also in the free press in the seven days in the various news outlets. So hopefully folks have become aware that this is being proposed. And just one thing to be very clear, the zoning changes do not affect any existing car dealerships in the sense that all existing car dealerships remain permitted uses throughout the corridor. That was something that commission had us map out to be certain that they weren't creating a nonconformity somewhere. Really quick follow up? Yeah. Any objections that have so far from landowners that are affected by the zoning changes? There was a concern raised by the owner of the Freedom Nissan property that by changing the zoning immediately south of them, that if at a future time they were to sell the business and a future person wished to expand their business by trying to buy the property to the south, that that would not be, they wouldn't have that opportunity anymore because south of them would not be eligible. So the Citizens Bank concentra property that area. That was the only concern specifically raised by property owners in that area. There was also a resident of Holmes Road who was interested to understand how this would affect the property at the north at the east end of Holmes Road, which is the existing Audi dealership. Thank you. Okay. Any other questions or comments? Tim. Why did Matt recuse himself from this discussion? Matt. Can I ask? Yeah, I'd like to answer that if I could. Yes, please. Hi, Tim. I switched jobs. I own a company now called Meadow Hill. I run a trade association management firm. One of the firms that I have under contract is the Vermont Vehicle and Automotive Distributors Association. I'll have comments at the public hearing about the proposal. Okay, thank you. Okay, you're ready for the vote then? Okay, all in favor of holding this public hearing at nine o'clock on December 5th, signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. So that passes. Thank you. Now we go on to item 10, right? Yes. Presentation of the east-west crossing and Matt's gonna join us back. And this is certainly exciting. This is really exciting. Oh, it's nice to get a map that takes me half an hour to go all the way across. But you know what I wanna compliment you on is in each little section, you did keep the years. So I didn't have to go, oh shoot, I gotta go all the way up to see what year is that? I did try to improve it. That was very helpful. So I appreciate that. Just to be clear, this first agenda item is on the east-west crossing. And council is... It's not the ticks, excuse me. The preferred alternative, the next agenda will be on this. Sorry. Good evening for the record. My name's Alana Blanchard. I'm community development director. I'm here with Erin Goyette, who's the project manager for VHB and the head of a gigantic design team that has been working on the east-west crossing walk bridge, walk bike bridge over I-89. And I just, you know, they've done a tremendous job and I just want to give a few words of introduction and I hope none of them are scary, but it's a huge project. We're really excited to be where we are. There's been a huge amount of public outreach to very diverse groups, many different stakeholders, many people who we've never really reached out to before. So it's been a really exciting process. And as you'll see, there were a lot of great ideas that came out of that process. I did want to follow up on one item that was in the memo. One thing that you'll see in the presentation from Erin is that he has really beautiful illustrations. I want to remind everyone this is a concept and not a construction set of drawings that you're approving for construction. The project is at the point where it has a lot of information about what the public wants and what the designers thought made sense in terms of the budget and the design to move forward with. And that got drawn up as what looks like a photo, but really think of it as a line drawing that has colors on it because it is a concept. And to go along with that, there were several cost estimates that went along with the concept. Generally at this stage, we look at a cost estimate as an order of magnitude. So in the middle of this process, we're like, okay, we're inside our order of magnitude. Now that the concept has been, there is a recommended concept that the cost estimate is not inside the overall budget. And so we'll be looking at that. And I wanted to be specific that we have a few directions that we're recommending that the design team explore. So I wanted to be upfront with you so that you know what might be changing and to make sure that you're comfortable with that. And also to let you know what our priorities are in terms of retaining within the project, we see these more as part of the purpose and need and things that we heard strongly about from the community. So some of the factors that are affecting the cost estimate, obviously prices right now are pretty, I would say they're not stable. And they're changing a lot, they go up and down. Right now, steel we know is really high. And but many other prices are still moving in the market. And we know wood went up, it went down. So there's definitely a lot of fluctuation. There's also, at this stage in the process, we often talk about the estimate as an order of magnitude because there are so many unknowns, so many things haven't been designed. So you just put a big lump sum number approximately what you think it should be for the size of a project, but it's not specific necessarily to the site or the specific details of this particular project. So we will be continuing to work through the cost estimate, but we'll also be looking at some big changes that to see if they can move the needle. And I have some listed here, but the design team will also be looking at changes that they may come up with. So one of those is to continue looking at materials to look at the width of the bridge. Right now it's 30 feet at the widest. So you'll see in the concept that's listed as a maximum. And I wouldn't, and Erin will probably note that, but there is a continuous width throughout the project and that is the typical. So we don't expect that on the bridge, it would go down to that, but less than 30. We look at the university mall connection. They're right now, it's pretty much a standalone appendage and there may be ways to look at that is in ways that it's less expensive. And then also look at the grading and ways there may be cost savings there and also whether the pause places need to be as they're currently designed, there may be a way to do that less expensively. So in terms of priorities, ADA is an obvious sort of fundamental design criteria. And then also making sure that it works for bicyclists. It's open 24 seven and throughout all seasons, so maintainable, that it's comfortable and attractive. We really want people to use it obviously. And we want that continuous through path throughout the project. And then things that were very popular with the public were the greenery and the windshielding. And then obviously low maintenance is very important. So I just wanted to hand it over to Aaron and let him walk you through the project and process. It's been overall a big project in a tight timeline with a lot of people focused on it. So really excited about it. Aaron, are you good at it? Oh, good. Yeah, we like pictures. Arrange the go-to meeting on my screen. Okay, good evening. Welcome. Just a brief recap of the history of the project. There was a previous scoping study that was undertaken by the CCRPC. And it was the original study was completed in 2018 where that project team determined I actually went through a whole process of determining and soliciting community engagement, developing a purpose and need statement for the project, which is very important from a federally funded project. The purpose and need statement will drive the project forward and project decisions are made based upon that purpose and need statement. There was an alternatives analysis to determine the alignment of the proposed shared use pathway in the bridge along with other potential strategies for safely moving bikes and pedestrians across the interstate at this general location. And then out of that study became a recommended alternative which you see on the screen here on the right hand side is that recommended alternative which became the city council's approved pathway alignment to go forward. So that's the general alignment that our team started with. In addition in that study phase there was the follow up supplemental study to document resources in the area, do a little bit of topo survey right of way mapping along with a little bit of utility exploration. So I want to highlight also in addition to the general alignment that you see here which is the dotted red line we have identified a number of connections that our team is working through. We've got the obvious connections to the Williston Road corridor on the north side of the project but we're also showing a connection to the Corey Hill development, a connection to the hotels and CVS property on the eastern side and then the connection to the University Mall property on the south side closer to the bridge location. The project budget, this project was a recipient of a USDOT raise grant in 2021 and that funds about 9.8 million of the project. It's planned for potential TIF district funding of about 4.3 million. And then that leaves about a half a million for other local or federal funding sources to make up the total budget. Just a brief recap of project process. So for transportation development projects a lot of times we refer to three different phases. Phase A being the project definition phase, phase B being project design and then phase C being project construction. So we've got some general dates, time frames associated with each of these phases. Right now we're still in that project definition phase and technically the project definition phase started with those CCRPC studies and is continuing through this concept definition. Tonight obviously is the city council presentation. So just a recap of the process that our team working alongside Alana and her team have taken. We got to work on this project in, I think it was late May, early June timeframe and we've been working to define the concept ever since then. A very robust public engagement program that's included a number of the public workshops that you see listed on the screen as well as some other items I'll get into a little bit later. Workshop number one was held on June 16th and that was kind of a blank canvas. We started with some, well I'll go through a recap of those but that was kind of some initial concept brainstorming, no real concepts on the board at that point. Workshop number two, August 31st where the team had developed three concepts at that point. Those concepts were showcased to the public and anybody who attended and then we took additional feedback at that meeting in the form of comments both verbally and written. We used a kind of a breakout station method where we had folks write on sticky notes and apply the sticky notes to the boards. We'll get to that a little bit later. And then workshop number three was just a couple of weeks ago, October 13th where our team presented the final concept for a final public review. The community engagement beyond those public workshops I think we had an explanation at those public workshops that while they may be some of the most visible to the public and maybe some of the most well attended they're one piece of a much larger public engagement program. We had seven focus groups with underrepresented communities throughout the community and the region. We had multiple meetings with the abutting property owners. We had a university mall pop-up event where several members of our team set up display at the university mall and engaged with folks that were interested passing by. We've talked to South Burlington security maintenance personnel, police, fire and DPW. We've talked with the South Burlington bicycle and pedestrian committee a couple of times. We've talked with the public art committee a couple of times. We met with South Burlington seniors at their monthly lunch in August and had many conversations with V-TRANS, the Regional Planning Commission and FHWA. So they're all part of the project development team. What does FHWA stand for? It's the Federal Highway Administration. Oh, okay, thank you. And they're tied in from a funding standpoint, providing the raise grant. And I don't know if this is too deep of a dive, but Federal Highway Administration is providing the money to the agency of transportation and then the agency of transportation provides the money to the city. And so all are involved. They're also providing technical support as well, not just money. So public workshop number one, a very quick recap. I got into a little bit of this earlier, but we provided some existing conditions pictures. We went through a number of example, bicycle and pedestrian bridges and pathways, some example retaining walls, really to try to get the creative juices flowing and to give folks a little bit of a backdrop of what could be possible with the project. We had some breakout sessions that were geared towards the bridge structure and aesthetics, the pathway experience and the project connections, and then a third group for project sustainability, environmental concerns and other areas of interest. For this public workshop number one, we had folks that were present in person do a rotation through those three groups. And then we had one bigger group online that went through each of the topics. All of the workshops were both virtual and in person. We heard a lot at public workshop number one. This is just a word art of from the notes that were taken and connections is obviously the largest word here. The most times it got brought up a lot. I think there's a lot of positive energy behind the project, but also a lot of curiosity as to how it's gonna improve connections beyond the project area. And we did explain at both public workshops number two and three that this project really is focused on the bridge area itself and those connections that we showed earlier on. There is a larger project. I believe Alana is working with the RPC. Alana and members of DPW are working with the RPC to study and develop some of those connections that are maybe a little bit further reaching. But our team took a lot of notes. We had a lot of good information coming out of public workshop number one and translated that into three alternatives. So quickly moving into public workshop number two. It's a recap of our outreach, our stakeholder focus groups and the workshop itself. So for each public engagement touch point and that's the focus groups, that's the community committees, that's the property owners. We went through our design concept development and really we ended up with these kind of terminology of the land bridge, the Vermonti bridge and the modern bridge. And those you can see in these visualizations on the right hand side, the land bridge being the top, the Vermonti bridge being the center and the modern bridge being the bottom right hand corner. We talked about each of the bridges, the concept, how the concept was evolved and developed. We talked about the pathway approach and the landscaping. We talked about the integration of public art into the bridge and into the shared use pathway. We had example pictures of potential seating and potential shelter, different types of railing. There's a lot of vertical concrete retaining walls. So we showed examples of formliners that could be used on those walls and then we split into breakout stations and we asked the public to take notes during the presentation. To be able to then apply those notes onto the boards and we had them set up right out in the hallway here. So we asked folks to kind of mingle with the project team, talk about the project, apply their notes and a lot of good public feedback at the public workshop but also from all of those other touch points and we heard very common themes from each of the groups so we heard that the Vermonti bridge didn't get a lot of love. But we did hear a lot of, we kind of asked two major questions and for each of the concepts and these are just a couple of visualizations of the land bridge. We asked what did you like about the concept and what would you change? And this is the land bridge and just a summary of what we heard. So really liked the plantings, the natural feel. There's a little bit of a separation for bikes and pads, a good size width, a lot of seating and then items that would change and I'll flip back here just so you can see. Really kind of an open air, open on top of the interstate and so that, what would you change? Maybe some protection from the elements, from the wind, lower maintenance plants, change the sides so that they're not completely open and then increase the visibility to be able to see all the areas. The modern bridge was the other bridge that received some positive comments. So a couple of visualizations of the modern bridge and then what did we hear about the modern bridge? Really liked the width, the artistic nature, the shape, the simplicity, that enclosed feeling and shielding from the cars and weather and also adequate seating, but what would you change? The addition of plants, addition of art, better separation between bikes and pads and being able to view beyond just the bridge, see through that barrier. And it became clear to our team that the strengths of the land bridge were really the weaknesses of the modern bridge and vice versa. So we pulled elements from each of those concepts into the final concept and I'll show some more visualizations of this but this is essentially a combination of elements from that land bridge and elements from the modern bridge. So we took that final concept. We've developed it over the course of a couple of months and I guess it was about six weeks and then presented it back to the public at that public workshop number three, the middle of October and identified it as really the draft final concept. So just a couple of visualizations on the right hand side there. We talked a lot about the bridge and how that came together, the pathway approaches and our design and accessibility and reviewing kind of the combination of the bicycle and pedestrian modes. And then we had similar breakout stations as I explained from workshop number two for workshop number three and asked the same couple of questions. What did you like, what would you change? So what did we hear? People really liked the public art integration and we'll get a little bit more into detail on what was presented in just a moment. The bridge and the pathway geometry, the plantings, the greenery, the shielding from the cars and the weather. We have perforations in the panels now so that you're able to see through them and see beyond just the bridge area. And then a few comments over what would change, looking for maybe fewer benches. There was a couple of suggestions from folks to add stairs for a shorter walking distance as a potential connection to the U-Mall. Consider better separation between bicycles and pedestrians to add clear signing to the concept. There was also a number of other considerations that didn't necessarily fall into what do you like or what would you change? And we've got these recorded for our team to continue to consider going forward. So planning for landscaping upkeep, how does the city plan to upkeep any plants that may be planted? Selection of sustainable materials as the project design is ongoing. Shared use pathway safety, making sure that all modes of transportation, whether it be bicycles, pedestrians, electric bikes, feel safe being there. Some discussion about bridge security or use of security cameras, potential solar powered lighting, discouragement of graffiti, and then being sure that there's a plan for winter maintenance, snow removal. So quickly go through the final concept. We had some guiding principles, making sure that it's forward thinking, transformative, iconic, inviting, accessible, safe for everyone, taking into account environmental sustainability, improving the quality of life and being economically competitive. The final concept is a curved, sinuous approach on the pathways, limiting our grade to about 4.5%. Having the shielding barrier, contrasting with the surrounding environment, bright light colors, maximizing curves and integration of public art. Having some pause places where we've got minimal slope or level landings so that people can take a rest. If they need integration of public art and then making sure that the project is well lit throughout. This is a plan view of the bridge layout. North is upward, South is to the bottom of the screen. And the pathway, as it's shown, we've got a few different areas of the pathway. There's an at grade portion of the pathway, there's an elevated portion of the pathway as it ramps up to the bridge and then there's the pathway across the bridge and kind of the same thing on the other side, elevated back down to at grade. The elevated portion of the pathway, as you see, approaches the bridge, is a 14 foot wide pave width. This allows for a 10 foot wide effective width and a two foot shoulders where if you can imagine riding a bike or walking, you're not gonna be directly against that barrier. So providing enough space where people feel comfortable. The bridge itself, you can see kind of the lighter color across the bridge is a continuation of that 14 foot wide width. As we look on the southern end of the bridge, just south of that lighter area, there's an eight foot wide landscaped area and then an eight foot wide separated pathway for pedestrians to be able to meander a little bit slower off of that shared use pathway. So that's where the maximum 30 foot width comes from at the beginning and end of the bridge. We're at about 14 feet railing to railing width. Some visualizations of the final concept, looking north, this is looking south. Again, looking south, the visualization on the bridge or approaching the bridge, looking west, on the bridge, looking west. Visualization at dusk with lighting, with lighting involved. This is a view of the overall project pathway on the left-hand side. You can see the bridge, kinda at the lower center of the left side and some typical sections on the right-hand side of the at-grade pathway, the elevated pathway and then the bridge typical section. This is a typical pause place. So on that pathway, I think we've got two on the western approach and two on the eastern approach up to the bridge, providing an area where folks can rest. There'll be a couple of benches there, room for wheelchair access between the benches to be able to rest if it's needed. These would be graded along the pathway. The grade would change from 4.5% to about 2% at these areas. So public art integration. The bridge itself is intended to be a piece of art and that's part of the bright color across. That's part of the architectural details with the spikes that you see sticking up, the ribs, it's all been designed by an architect on our team. So the bridge itself acting as a piece of art. And you've decided on red? We've decided on a bright color. Oh, okay. So I don't think, a bright warm color. I don't think red has necessarily been fully decided upon yet. I like it. The architect likes the red. Yes, I do too. Yeah, I'm good. It's intended to contrast with the surrounding environment. Well, it's kind of a rosy. Yeah. And I think the red of the barns in the winter came up at some point too. The red of the barns. Red barns. Oh, okay. And how they contrast with the snow. Vermont landscape. Vermont landscape, but I think, I would say it'll be a warm color because depending on the material and the color choices, I think that the architect will have the opportunity to select the color. So additional public art integration. We do have an artist on our team. Tyler Vendatuli, you may be familiar. He's the artist who worked on the Gooses sculptures. So this is an idea to integrate native bird species, native bird sculptures into the project. And the idea is that potentially at the entrance to the shared use pathway, as you come off of Willis and Road, there may be a sign or QR code where you can pull it up on your phone, a list of 50 or so, up to 50 native bird species. And then to place those native bird species, create, craft them out of bronze and then place those native bird species statues along the pathway and along the bridge in scenes that may mimic real life. So for example, the two pictures that you see at the top of the screen here are pigeons and may place the pigeons underneath one of the benches. And so it ends up being a little bit of have a lesson on native bird species in Vermont and a little bit of a scavenger hunt to be able to find the birds as you cross the bridge. This idea received a lot of love from the public. We're taking sustainability very seriously. Our team at VHB is really centered around sustainability. I think there's a little bit bigger right up on this in the memo. We've gone through sustainability workshop and we're working through a number of items, including material selection, the lighting design, in embodied energy analysis. We've got the stormwater treatment and permitting to work through. In addition to what we're doing on the design side, there are the requirements of the Build America by America Act where iron, steel, manufactured products will need to be required to be made in America. We're working with the Public Works Department on making sure that the design becomes low maintenance and that it's able to be enjoyed for a long time and not necessarily closures for maintenance. The bridge itself, the project itself intended to have an impact on reducing vehicle miles traveled and those related emissions. It facilitates an active transportation with improved overall health for the users of the project and overall just looking to create a project that will be used, enjoyed and loved by the community. So we've got a few next steps. Tonight begins the, with this presentation, then begins the city council discussion on TIF district financing, understand the public vote for TIF district finance would be town meeting day, March 7th, with the raise grant federal funding on the project, there are timeframes that are associated with spending that money. It's a requirement to have federal funds authorized for construction by 2024 and our project schedule currently intends to advertise the project, believe in the fall of 2024, summer to fall to be able to begin construction in 2025. And then essentially a two year construction project 2025, 2026, so the grand opening being in 2026. That concludes presentation. Question? Yes. Yeah, I have three quick ones. First of all, I agree with the consensus. I love the modern concept and I love the artwork and I know the fine art committee was consulted and in that input. So thank you for this presentation. My questions are more pedantic. Who plows insults the bridge? Would that be AOT, would that be DPW? DPW. Okay. And then so seeing beyond the bridge and of course we don't know what's gonna happen with the mall, some good things could happen there. But I see that there's a ramp going down away from the highway towards sort of the Hannaford side of the mall. Is that part of the project or is that visualized as a project to come after it? And then because obviously with all the buildings that we're doing on Market Street, it's wonderful nurses and doctors and teachers and students can get right through there. So how does that work? Yeah, so it's a little bit deliberately vague where that ramp ends. Okay. And so right now it's shown as ending very close to the rear public entrance. I'm sorry. To the rear public entrance of the University Mall. And we're as part of the value engineering, it may move closer to the access road on the north side of the mall. But the intention is to make that connection. We see it as very important in terms of enabling cost savings for people who are commuting either to the University Mall or through the University Mall to city center from housing to jobs in either direction. Just to clarify if I could, that ramp down allowing people to access wherever we would make it. That's part of the big number that we're looking at. Yes, that's part of the big number. It's a big part of the big number, but it's a big number. Okay, great. Thank you, that's it. Great. Good question. Anyone else? Tim or Megan or Tom, you have a question? Tom. Two questions, one picks up on that or more of a comment than a question. I think that'll be a real missed opportunity if we don't work with the U Mall to rethink where that abuts. I love the design, I love everything else, but it just seems like the desire path for the traffic is not gonna want to cut north and south. So I'm sure you all are gonna work with the U Mall to rethink that. That's part. The question I have is, who gets naming rights? Because I'm thinking the Lana Blanchard Bridge or Paul Conner Bridge, but does anybody get to name this thing? You guys. You may name it. Paul, did you want to? Paul Conner director playing at the I could not hear everything that Paul said. Could it be restated? Yeah, so Paul Conner stated that the Chittenden County Regional Planning Commission in partnership with the city of South Burlington is conducting a study of the regional network and how to ensure that beyond the scope of the bridge project, the overall network is strengthened so that the bridge effectively connects in with other bicycle and pedestrian facilities throughout the region. Okay. Tim. Yeah, so I attended all three design sessions and it was a really great process and I appreciate all the public input and how it was folded back into proposals and they came down to three proposals initially and then ended up with this one. And I had a couple of really good conversations with Eti from Boston. And so I really, I like this design. I think it's a good overall compromise. It has qualities of its own that make it special. And I see the project is very positive for bike and pedestrian transportation in our area, especially trying to get from one side of 89 to the other and it links together UVM and the commercial area at the U-Mall and then they're gonna build all of that housing for UVM off-market streets. So I'm having a helicopter moment here. So yeah, this is a very positive development. So I appreciate the hard work that a lot of the team and BHB have put into it. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I think it's beautiful. I'm curious to know the lifespan that is foreseen for the bridge. Yeah, typically we're designing projects that are intended to have a service life of a hundred years with proper maintenance. Okay, very good. And that includes salt and all of the concrete will not degrade in less than a hundred years. Well, I did say with proper maintenance, you know, there is, we live in a harsh environment, right? And there are sometimes circumstances where repairs or rehabilitations are needed, but kind of the overall larger piece of infrastructure intended to last for a hundred years with that proper maintenance. So it's hard to say that the concrete's gonna be perfect still, you know, 80 years down the road. There may be some areas that need some and are resurfacing at times. Okay, so it will be a bridge that there's already kind of a maintenance plan that's baked into it. Correct. What is the price tag of the main? I'm just curious. I mean, there's flowers, there's plowing, there's, you know, all the lights you got, all the little bulbs you have to replace. I love that you're thinking like this. Yeah, I mean, I love the design, but I also think that to have it continue to look really lovely, you can't just build it and then walk away. Yeah, no, that's a great question. So we have been working closely, obviously, two members from DPW are on the design team, Tom DiPetro and Aaron Cawlin, and Erica Cawlin, excuse me. And we've also had meetings with Adam, who's Adam Cade. Deputy Director of Operations? Deputy Director. Okay, thank you. And through these conversations, one of the things that they have asked is that they want to do the maintenance plan once the concept has been developed. So I think that each of these features and the maintenance plan will be developed hand in hand. So we might not have as much landscaping as is shown in the conceptual plans and it may be in specific locations. So things like that. Certainly lighting, it will be LED lighting and so we'll work on minimizing the overall maintenance of items like that where we know they can be prone to require replacement in less than 100 years. So there will be a lot of attention paid to that. And I like the idea of the little birds and stuff. I just also am imagining the plow coming by and nipping the little birdies underneath a bench or something. So there is a lot of thought that needs to go into where you're gonna secret these little birds for us to find. Yeah, and making sure they're secure because I'm sure that we want them to stay on the bridge instead of someone's living room. Ellen, I have two little questions. Sure. One is, Alana, has there been progress with the proposal for the connection of the Quarry Hillside? We're, it's in progress, but I would say that I would expect it to be a long process. Okay. And it will. And the other one was, go ahead. So we are looking at the connection near the planned road that would be between Quarry Hill and the Staples Plaza, which is on the official map. Oh, okay. And the other question was during construction would traffic on either north or southbound have to be rerouted onto the other side when they start placing steel? I'm just curious. We haven't gotten that far in the design yet, but, you know, we have been thinking, we have been thinking about a little bit. I think there needs to be a lot of coordination with the Agency of Transportation and Federal Highway Administration on what is plausible and possible during the construction phase. Certainly there are some safety concerns with erecting steel over traffic as well as placing concrete deck over traffic. So there likely would need to be some impacts to the traffic below. I'm not sure if it raises to the level of a crossover, but could be more intermittent rolling roadblocks or short-term closures. Thank you. The community will see starting next week some flaggers out at the on and off ramps with lane narrowing as they do some boring adjacent to the ramps to further design this project. So we will start seeing some impacts that no lane closures, but just lane narrowing with flaggers. There may be some intermittent lane closures. That is not what we've been saying today. As they get into the median, there's a couple, yeah, there's a couple of borings in the median, being able to get equipment in and out. Okay. Well, if there's no other, oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Helen, we do need, I think one of the action items tonight is the approval of the resolution approving this as the preferred alternative. Is that correct, Alana? Yes, that's correct. Well, I would move that we approve the preferred alternative resolution, make a resolution. I don't want to announce it. I would move that we pass a resolution showing support for the preferred alternative in the approval of design in advance of town meeting day ballot item. Thank you. Okay. Again, it's been moved and seconded. Any further discussion? No, all in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Well, thank you. This is, I think it's really exciting and it's very attractive. And I think it'll be a real attraction for our community. So thank you for all your hard work. And the food was really good too. Oh, the fact. Yeah. Okay. Tim, you want me to unplug your car? It's not there. Okay. So now moving on to item 11. And this is the tax increment financing bond. And we're just about on time. So thank you very much. Alrighty, lots of numbers. Yes. I actually prepared a presentation. So, and I'm not sure how much of it you want to go through. We can go through as much as you want. But if I could share my screen, that would be, I'm not. No, I think we want the presentation. This is, is this what you just emailed to us? No, it's something. You wanted to do that for you? Yes. Thank you. So I don't know. Let's see. There we go. Okay. So I have, I did go through all the, or most of the parts of the memo. So we can flip through. I'm not sure. We're, I think we're a little bit, we're a little bit behind schedule. Well, we're almost on time. I mean, we're not too far behind. Okay. I will go into great gory detail there. Well, maybe we don't have much time. You have 15 minutes. Okay. So, so I just wanted to start like why we're having this discussion. We have a TIF district. TIF district is very highly regulated. It comes with timelines. We are running into our deadline to incur debt. That will be March 31st, 2024. Our last opportunity to ask the voters to vote at a regularly scheduled election would be town meeting day. We're coming to you now because we know there's a lot going on right now, but we're going to want to talk to the voters in January and February, if you do want to put this on the ballot. And so we would like to put together material to let the voters, to help the voters learn about and understand the project. I don't want to show them plans, which is what I have now because they're very confusing. So, right now, our TIF district is in, gosh, we're like in year 10. Is pardon? We're in year 10 of our TIF district. Just kind of amazing. We've issued $10 billion. Our bonding authority to date is 14,200, Garden Street, phase one has not been issued yet. So that's that $4 million difference. And we've added $30 million to the city center tax base. I say we, private development has added $30 million. And then our anticipated tax base, and this is what has been modeled looking at opportunities for redeveloped properties that have no development on them or properties that are underutilized and that we would expect either because they changed tenants a lot, that they might be redeveloped. So we would expect to add about 300 million in total new value by 3037. Does that include the Yuma? No. And I do have a map of the TIF district so we can see where that is. Oh, that's good. Wow. Go. So the 306 million is the increment. And it doesn't say that here, but that's the 306 million increase over what the tax base was at the time the TIF. That's the increment property value. So it's not tax revenue increment, it's the incremental increase in value. Over what was the original base value? 36, 36 million. So you're saying in 15 years we're gonna get a 10-fold increase in the property values of the TIF district. I'm saying that we are estimating that we will have 300 million additional value in the property values. I have skepticism on that point. When I look forward to you showing me where we're gonna see a 10-fold increase in our property base. So we all have skepticism. We may need a different meaning for that, but sure. I would be happy to walk you through it. So we have four projects that are left that are not yet authorized to use TIF district financing. So they are eligible in that they have approval through Pepsi, but we needed the voters to authorize the use of TIF district financing. So they are Garden Street phase two. This is from White Street to Patchin Road. The estimated cost is, or the estimated budget is 8.227 million. And that's 100% TIF district eligible. It is also federal aid eligible because it's a regional resource. And we anticipate that this would go, could go into construction in 2024 and we're at 60% design level. That's sort of where we have been for a while. We've been focusing on other projects for a while. Most significantly, this includes the realignment of the white and Midas drive intersection so that they align in a cross intersection. The Williston Road streetscape project number two. This is a streetscape on the south side from Dorset to Midas Drive. It includes ample area for snow storage and then also a shared use path. And this project is significant in that it creates an additional bicycle facility on Williston Road, but it also makes it more usable in the winter and in inclement weather, much more comfortable space and less likely to have snow and ice and slush and spray on it. It also addresses some utility conflicts that exist in the area right now. Sorry. So this one is 50% eligible for TIF district financing. The total budget is 2.6 million. So 50% would be 1.3 million authorization for TIF district financing. We have secured an $800 million federal aid grant. 800,000. I'm sorry, 800,000. I wish it were 800 million. That would be great. That would be great for the year of your trip. That's more like the, what is it, Powerball or something? Yeah. So we have a $0.8 million federal grant and then there is a certain portion, somewhere between a half a million and 300, a half a million and 300,000 and that is that we do not have a designated source. We have been programming it in the capital improvement program as a loan serviced through the reserve funding and that's how it's addressed in the model. And this is also federal aid eligible. It's on a regional resource. So the east-west crossing, we've just gone through that. So I will skip over this one. But I would point out that this goes from the Staples Plaza and it comes all the way around the Dorset Wilson Road Corner and meets up with the existing Charities path right at the edge of the Homewood Suites property. And then city center park phase two is the Boardwalk Connection. You'll see the yellow dotted line connects Garden Street by Healthy Living to the Market Street, Stormwater Pond and Barrett Street. The estimate for this is 1.1 million and that is 100% Tiff District financing eligible. Although the overall city center park project is only 95% because we expended that 5% in the first part phase one of this project. This remaining part is 100% Tiff District financing eligible. This is not federal aid eligible because this is considered a regional resource. And one of the reasons that I put that up there is because this is the total amount of debt authorization that we would recommend be requested. It's the maximum amount that each project is eligible to be financed for using tax increment financing because the cost of services, construction materials is very uncertain right now. We would definitely recommend going for the full amount. That being said, at the staff level, we are going to be looking for additional funding for these projects. So there as opportunities come up we'll certainly be seeking grants or other partnerships in order to fund portions of these projects. And the actual build out or completion of these four if the public approves is 2026? Yes. For all four. For all four. Is that I, you know. Or approximately. Yes. Barring, you know, whether or other things. Well, yeah. No, I was just thinking in terms of the cost of materials. I mean, if you stay within maybe three or four years then those dollars might be enough. Right. Well, and I, you know, some of these, these are some of these. So for the bridge, that's at a very conceptual level but some of these are estimates are based off much further at 60% plan. So much higher level of detail. So now we get to the preliminary, preliminary model. I say preliminary, preliminary partially because there's still some scrubbing that I would like to do with the numbers and just make sure absolutely that these are the numbers that we want to put out in our public notice. So this is the top left part of the spreadsheet that is in the packet. And so the first thing that we look at is income. We use the model that the Vermont Economic Progress Council uses in their application for TIF district financing districts. That model is the same model that we use when we go in for a substantial change. It looks at, it looks at the current tax rate. It looks at tax rate trends and that's for the city taxes, the state taxes. You take your existing property values and then you look at assessed value or we look at assessed values for different types of development, specifically rental housing, owned housing such as condominiums or townhomes. We look at retail and we look at office commercial and we look at what if there was a new building with that location, what the assessed value would be and we don't look at it necessary. Sometimes we look at it in today's but sometimes we look at it, we might say, you know, well in five or 10 years because we know that there were maybe one reassessment between now and 2037. When we started this, we definitely did now because we were just coming out of a reassessment we don't have as much difference between today's assessed values and what we're using in the model. But when we started this because we hadn't done a reassessment in a long time there was more of a delta between those. We've now passed those numbers generally. So we take all of those numbers, we use the Vermont Economic Progress model that they use in their application and we continue to update it just with our assessed values what our existing current tax rate is and then what we think or what developers tell us they would be developing at a location. And so it's a model, it's a projection and an estimate and what I have here is all projected development and that is coming out of our last model that was presented and approved to the Vermont Economic Progress Council as part of our approved, sorry, substantial change request, all that terminology. And then that we took, I took that model that was updated with the Catamount Run Project. And then so when I updated it with the Catamount Run Project because that is a lot of development in a very short period of time that increased the overall TIF district yield by five million or four to five million dollars. So it went from like 43 to 47 million was the total estimated tax increment that would be received over the entire life of the district and I say that because... And that's through 37? Right and I say that because we didn't know that the Catamount Run would be built out as quickly as it was. So we had the development in the model spread out much more longer, we were just coming out of COVID with a substantial change. We didn't wanna be that aggressive with the development. And so the timing and the amount of development makes a big difference in these models. Tom? This is just an important point and I really wanna understand your spreadsheet. As much as this is a model we can look at 2021 and 2022 data and you're saying with these spreadsheets and it makes sense to me that the $30 million increase in value of the land that's in the TIF district had generated in 2022 413,448 dollars that otherwise we wouldn't have gotten but because of the TIF those are dollars that are redirected from the Ed fund to the city of South Burlington to pay off these projects. That is a correct statement. 413,448 dollars and 15 cents. I would have to give you the breakdown between municipal and education. So I would say two thirds of that was funds that would have gone to the Ed fund and I'm sorry, probably more than two thirds, but probably about two thirds because the percentage is different. But this is the total amount that South Burlington got which represents the two thirds that was redirected. That represents the two thirds plus the municipal portion. So we got $400,000 last year. Okay, that helps. Thank you. So I have two models. The one is the one that I just told you about and then the yellow line is just Catamount Run and projects that they have shown on various subdivision applications that they have submitted over the years. So Catamount Run is not developing all the sites on the South Burlington city center, I'm sorry, Snyder Braverman is not developing all of the sites for Catamount Run on the property that they have contracted with South Burlington city center LLC with. Did you all follow that? That was a lot of names. Yeah, you say the term Catamount Run, that's new to me. Who are they? Hang on, here we go. So this is, so UVM and Snyder Braverman contracted to put together a project that they are calling Catamount Run. Okay, I missed. No, that's totally fine. So this you can see market street is right here. Catamount Run is the red properties and then the purple properties or other projects that Snyder Braverman is built or are being built on South Burlington city center LLC's lands. You can see we're there, we're not Catamount Run, valid square is there. And then there's two properties that are already existing north of market street and then south of market street on Garden Street. Our two buildings, one under construction that is being, that is contracted to UVM MC, UVM medical center. And then the one next to healthy living is also contracted to UVM medical center. And if I can just clarify, it's not, they are contracted and that they are investors in the projects and they will have some first rate of refusal. They are all 51% or more privately owned and all market rate and will stay in the current market if the institutional investors don't need them all. So, and all the taxes are. All taxable. There's no tax cut because they're a university. Yeah. This is very helpful. This should be public knowledge. Dover Place, which has been completed. What is that taxed at in our grand list approximately? Is it a $10 million building, $20 million building? Cause I'm trying to get these figures to make sense and what we can anticipate with Catamount Run. I would be happy to go through that with you. I don't have it at the tip of my fingertips at the moment. But we should schedule that because I want to be a proponent for this, a cheerleader, but I really need to see the numbers. I can do that for you. So the, oh, so the purple are under construction. Okay. Or completed. And then the red ones, the Catamount Run. That's additional potential UVM housing. Yeah, so the Catamount Run are the recent announcement that UVM made regarding housing that they are investing in that Snyder-Braverman is in the process of permitting for construction. Which is separate from the medical center. Right. And these are also, this is a very schematic design. These have not been permitted or approved. These are, these are massing at this point. Okay. And reserve means under prospect place apartments? Yeah, the prospect place apartments are contracted with UVM medical center now. So this is- What is the term? I'm sorry, they're not contract. They're being invested in, I think it means that they're not part of the Catamount Run. So this is an illustration that I pulled off the web because UVM was using it in their press releases regarding the Catamount Run project. So, oh, there we go. Paul Conner planning his own in director. Matt, what I can say, I don't know the use of the word reserved. What I can say as a status is that we have issued the site plan approval for 120 dwelling units, 5,000 square foot daycare and but an 1,800 square foot commercial space in the prospect place building. And the developers have indicated that in this calendar year they will be there anticipating pulling their zoning permit for construction. Nice. Thank you. And that would be all market rate. That's great news. Great news. Thank you. That is good. We switched with the child center. Okay. Okay, we got another three minutes. We can skip to the end. I'm happy not to go through the lot. No. Okay, so the red line, I'm sorry, that the yellow is a difference between if nothing else develops besides the Snyder Braverman developments on South Wellington City Center, LLC land, which is the former Munson property. So, and there's a, it's a big difference. So it's total value of TIF increment. That's what would be available to payback, to payback that any TIF district financing versus 32 million. So this, this is the TIF district. And I overlaid the diagram that you just saw over the South Burlington City Center LLC property. So it's the boundaries exclude this triangle, exclude this property here and exclude this property here that's been developed by Black Bay, the townhomes that are at the Eastern. The triangle thing is the Poon property, right? Correct. That's owned by the Poon Trust. A parking lot. So there's a hundred acres. The South Burlington City Center LLC projects are on 32 acres, but a good portion of that is used in roadway and wetlands. So the model that we're using, I will say it does not include the school district. This does not include what? The school district. So just even though the school district is inside the TIF district, we're not showing any potential development on that site. So, yes. Good move. We did that once. So that's sort of like our two extremes of the model. So at this, can I interrupt Rolana? I just looked up that parcel to over place on the grand list. So it's assessed this year at 4.5 million. It pays 76,000 in property tax. So a quarter of two thirds of that still goes to the Ed Fund. So it's not that all of that is going to the TIF district, but that's gives you a ballpark. Yeah, thank you. And that's also affordable housing. That's affordable housing. You still get that on the affordable housing. Yes. Sorry to interrupt you, Rolana. Let me get back. So this is a list of the, so the next set of lines or expenditures from the TIF district fund, financing TIF district fund, that the increment would be, that we would fund through with the increment. So these are all the bond issues. You can see the ones in yellow that we've already issued. That's $10 million. There's one more for Garden Street that is authorized, has yet to be issued. And then the other four. There has been a big increase in interest. And so that is modeled in and included in the model. Even with the increase in interest, the overall bond service is still less than our full model that we submitted for a substantial change. It is however, what all of our payment would be is still more than if all the development stops with Snyder-Raeberman and nothing else develops. There's also 480,000 that's related costs that was approved in a prior vote authorization. The only other thing that I would point out about this is that these are all structured with five years delayed payment and level payments. So we are paying more interest because of the way it's structured. We could look at structuring these differently in order to lower the overall payment, especially at the time of issuance, we would definitely look at that. And then at the end, this is sort of the bottom line is what happens? So if we end up with every possible, or all of the properties that we have in the model, and I'm happy to go through that with you, redeveloping our projected fund balance at the end would be 6.9 million. And what would happen if we have a plus balance, anything that originally came from, that would have gone normally to the Ed fund would go to the Ed fund and anything that would have gone normally to the city would go to the city. So we collect 75% of the value of increment both from the Ed fund and from the city. So those values would go back to where they originally would have gone. On the other side, if we do not have enough increment, then the city would be responsible for funding those. So in the memo, I mentioned there's several strategies that we would use, that we would recommend. One of them is talking to property owners and potential developers and investors. We know that those conversations go a long way in building confidence and interest in redevelopment of areas. And certainly, all the development I think that we have today or I would say 95% of it started with a conversation. And so those are very important. And then, and frankly, right now we're spending a lot of time developing projects which is really important too for the success of the TIF district. But as these projects are developed, that creates more opportunities and time to invest in other things. Another strategy, as I mentioned earlier, is going after grants, restructuring, and there may be other opportunities that we see moving forward. So... I just wanna make sure if Tim or Megan, since I don't see your face on the screen, if you have questions, please chime in. I have a quick question. Go ahead. Can you hear me? Yes. Yeah, so we still have on our budget the city center reserve fund every year, is that correct? $860,000. Right, and this spreadsheet is huge. Is there a point at which in the future we do not have to collect that anymore because the TIF is self-sustaining because of the increased tax revenue? Well, that's my next slide. It is to some extent. So I think it's really what happens with the model. So this shows are sort of the two extremes, not two extremes, I don't... It shows the model that we have of the development. I wouldn't say it's an extreme model, but it's definitely shows that many of the properties that could redevelop do redevelop. At some point between now and 2037. So, and I've taken 2037, we were actually paying out of the TIF fund for several more years because some of our debt is structured to end after the end of the time that we collect increment. And then because we'll also have to pay for the auditor to audit. So I have 2018 and 2027. So depending on what the development is between now and then will tell us how much needs to be transferred to the reserve fund annually. So, and we do have, we will continue to be making principal and interest payments for this building. I forget what the last year is, but it was a 30 year bond that we took out for this building. Sorry, Jessie. So just to add what a lot says absolutely accurate, she and I have been started having that conversation to him about what the models would look like over the years as we step that down and how we would potentially use those, that tax capacity to reinvest in ourselves, reinvest in the city and other places. So that is something we're keeping our eye on. But to Alana's point, we need to see how that, how the development keeps up with our modeling, at least for a couple more years to really understand where that step down might be. Sure, thanks. Okay. Two more minutes. Okay. This is the end. Good. So, you know, we always like to remind people that it's that TIF district financing, even though it's double-barreled debt is a general obligation bond and that we're always required to pay it back. So, okay. This is like that caveat, you know, when someone's trying to sell you a stock, you know, or some sort of a stock fund at the bond that says past performance is no indicator of future. If I may. Yes. But it's an important point because the faith of the city is on the line here. And if the development doesn't occur, we have to pay this as property taxpayers. It gives me a lot of peace knowing that UVM and the medical center are interested because they are the most reliable partners I can think of in this region. So it gives me confidence to support this with this number walk-through. I'm feeling better about it. Okay. We do have an action item. Okay. Yeah. So, sorry, I did have more slides. So, this is our proposed schedule. Like I, as I said at the beginning, we think this is a big ballot item. And so we wanna make sure that people have the information that they need. We would like to start preparing it in December so that we can have it ready to go in January. And we expect that there would be several public information hearings. Either one or all of the council members for the public. And then there would also, at pre-mount, pre-town meeting day, there would be a public hearing. And then of course, town meeting. And so at this time, it would be helpful for us in terms of preparing the informational material in December, if there is a decision made towards the beginning of December. And a question, according to the TIF legislation, we do need to have a public hearing before a question can be put on a ballot. So, the action item that we would ask would be to warn a public hearing. Yeah, except we should say 830. Okay. I move to warn a public hearing on article one regarding TIF district financing debt authorization to fund the design and construction of the following projects on December 5th, 2022, meeting at 830 p.m. Garden Street, phase two, Wilson Road Streetscape, East West Crossing and City Center Park, phase two. Move to second. Okay, Megan seconded. So if you're ready for the vote. Okay, all in favor, signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. So you got your public hearing. Thank you. How'd you get a picture of us all at once in the same place? I went through several council meetings online. And that was the summer, I think. I didn't find one where you weren't all in masks. So, thank you, Alana, thank you. Thank you, Alana. Thank you. That was great. Okay. Is Megan? No, she's not. She's not with us. Oh, okay. Do you want to take a little break? Well, we take a five minute break and. I did. Oh, please don't. Good idea. Oh, so I did email him. I don't even know what I didn't see her. Council meeting of November 7th, and we will continue. Could not be here from Channel Count Meeting TV. So we'll move on to item 13, which is the first reading of a change to the impact fee ordinance and public and private sanitary sewage and storm systems ordinances. And then a fee schedule, a whole bunch of things, I guess. So, Paul. Hi, folks. Paul Conner, director of planning and zoning. So these are three very different sets of rules. One is our sanitary sewage and stormwater systems. One is our impact fee ordinance, and one is our planning and zoning fees. And what do they all come in common? They all have in common is they're all fees to the development community. That's the common link amongst the three of them. What you have in front of you is a proposal that where the city is a participant in the financing of a project that the ordinances slash fees allow for these major fees to be collected at the time of occupancy of a building rather than at the time of the zoning permit, which is our default. The difference between that is can be 18-ish months. And the specifics of this one is this came as a request from our partners at Summit, but it would be more broadly applicable than Summit. They've estimated that the combination of these three fees at current interest rates, if they were to be able to delay that payment till a later time would save them somewhere in the neighborhood of $30,000 to $40,000, which is just shy of the amount of money from the city's Affordable Housing Trust Fund that you have given to the project. So in effect, they're taking out a loan to pay a bank that amount of money. So we thought, boy, there must be a better way to spend collectively our money than giving it to interest to a bank. So the proposal here is to make that adjustment for these types of projects. And if you were so inclined, we would hold a public hearing on, or several public hearings, I guess, technically, on... December 5th at 9... December 5th at 9.30. The first one beginning at 9.30. And so it would be public hearings for the sewer ordinance and the impact fee ordinance and the planning zoning fees are done by resolution so they would not need to be hearing for that. Okay, is there any... I just have a question and I don't know if I should wait till the public hearing or not, but I'm just curious, how does this putting being paid these fees affect the cash flow for the planning and zoning department? I mean, is there like a... Sure, so... For a couple months or a year, it's like, oops, we've got a slow-down in that money. Sure, so the wastewater and sewer ordinance, that's the major fund that pays the sewer fund. So what it means is that the large sewer fund that money is being collected for things like either payment of the airport parkway treatment plant or in the future, the Bartlett Bay one, it means that there is a... That the money comes in later. Right. For the impact fees, it means that whether it's the police impact fee or the recreation impact fee or the highway impact fees, it means that we're getting them again later and so they're not available for use to spend on a project until a later time. Right. So we collect that money to do, let's say an intersection improvement or some of the things that a lot of people... So if we approve this, is there a shortfall for a little while? It's not a shortfall, it's a later arrival because we don't... I mean, I know it sounds... It's a little bit semantics. I guess it is a shortfall over what we otherwise would be getting except this is helping the projects to exist in the first place. If the project never exists, then we don't get the money at all. I guess that's sort of... We're also only talking about projects for which the city is an investor in. Right, so it's very small. Very, very small. Okay, that's fine. It's about one project every three or four years. Thank you. And I would just add, when we were projecting revenue for this current fiscal year, this was not... I mean, it's a more broad projection for revenues, so this isn't gonna be some gap in the budget for FY23 that was unanticipated. Okay, and then on the planning and zoning side, for the direct fees, it means that it... Those funds go directly to the general fund, so it means that the year in which it's not being collected gets a little less revenue, but two years later, we get more revenue. Okay. And I should also note that during the 18 month period that we're not collecting these fees, the city is also not collecting any interest on this dollar amount. So just as a note of consideration. Okay, so we have a motion to set a public hearing for 9.30. I had a quick question. Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, Tim, excuse me. And the CO is contingent upon the funds. Is that correct? Yes, that's correct. So one of the reasons that we were comfortable in proposing this as an idea to council is that while certificates of occupancy are at times a little bit difficult to chase down, in the instance where we are a financial partner in the project, we have many more levers to make sure that all of that is completed and they have all sorts of federal and state and local requirements on them. So we're pretty confident that we would be getting to that point. Okay, thanks. Matt, just clarification. Why are certificates of occupancy difficult to chase down? Because the major, so there's two kinds of certificates of occupancy. One is the one that the fire department does and there's the one that we do. The fire department, one is typically insurers, will not insure buildings until there is certificate of occupancy. So there's a very strong incentive. On the zoning side, the mechanism exterior to us that brings developers to want to make sure that they've got it is that at a time of refinancing, the banks wanna see it, but refinancing doesn't always happen quickly for a new project. So it's either through developers who know how to cross their T's and dot their I's or us reminding them and then taking enforcement action if we have to to go get their seal. Okay. There isn't sort of a big external pressure that is making them want to making them do it as quickly as on the fire side. Got it. Thank you. Okay, so you're ready for that boat? All in favor of having that hearing? You think if I by saying aye? Aye. Aye. Aye. Okay. There was a motion in the packet, but is that good enough? Yes. Okay. Thank you. Okay. So now we'll move down to 14. Review and consider approval of the draft 2022 Chittenden County multi-jurisdictional all hazards mitigation plan, a base plan in the South Burlington jurisdiction annex. Also known as the CCMJHMP base plan too. So thank you, Paul Conner, director of planning and zoning. This is the five year update to our hazard mitigation plan. We agreed a couple of years ago to partner with all but one of the communities in Chittenden County. Well, we agreed to partner with everybody. One chose not to participate. In updating this document, it is done as a county wide document with then a local annex. The Vermont emergency management hired the firm IEM to help each of the communities to look at what are the various threats and the likelihood of those threats and do an update for 2022. We did several iterations of working back and forth with those partners and the Chittenden County Regional Planning Commission. Obviously we've learned a lot from the pandemic. So there's a lot of discussion of that in the plan. There's a discussion of climate change in the plan as being a both shorter term and longer term implications and what the specifics for South Burlington are that we have updated our objectives over the next five years of the types of mitigation projects. As with five years ago, a big chunk of them are through our stormwater division where we are daily and annually taking on important projects to both clean up the lake and to make sure that the risk from loss of property and life is reduced year over year and that fits in precisely with what we're doing here. That's about it. Lots in there, but happy to answer any questions. I move to approve the enclosed resolution approving the 2022 all hazard multi-jurisdition mitigation plan and the accompanying South Burlington annex. Second. Okay, any further discussion? Tim. Yeah, I would like to have it read for work right now, please. Should we just censor him? Okay, take it back. Okay, so you're ready for that vote. All in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Thank you. And I'll just say thank you to Public Works, Fire and Police, each of whom were significant participants in this. And I just got the long straw to be able to be here tonight. I actually read through our plan. I was curious to see how much, you know, the airport or the air guard was connected and they are given that they can be a hazard. All right, moving on to item 15, discuss planning commission's recent vote to maintain the current number of planning commissioners and the charter committee's discussion to accept the recommendation and to not move this forward. So, can I give you a word? Yes, please. So as you likely remember, Andrew, can you pass around the documents to be circulated? As you might remember the council during the policies and strategies conversation had put on the work plan to look at expanding the planning commission, the charter commission moved that into their work plan as they're looking at governance over the next year and fast-tracked for town meeting day, the planning commission then had a discussion about it and voted to not move for, to keep the same composition as they currently have. The charter committee received that conversation about it and the conversation they had was to accept the planning commission's recommendation and not prioritize it over a bigger governance conversation. So we just wanted to check in with the council to make sure you were okay with that approach or if you wanted to send it back to the charter committee or if you wanted to have it integrated into the larger governance conversation for town meeting day 2024. Matt, you wanted to say something? I don't want to oppose what the planning commission offered. My thoughts are still the same as they were for as long as I've been thinking about such things which is whether it comes to the developer review board or the planning commission, there's so much that you have to know. And if someone has to recuse themself or someone is sick or someone has to get a step off, seven is the right number, I agree. It's just that it would be helpful to, and I don't know how to do this, have a bench or alternate system so people could move in and out whether it's the DRB or the planning commission because these are so, there's a high level of knowledge that you have to do whenever on these planning commissions or DRB that there's a way to create a pipeline for lack of a better word to, or some sort of alternate system, seven might be the right number for voting but perhaps is there a way to, maybe that's not a charter change governance issue, it's just a general comment. I'll leave it at that, thanks. Okay. Well, I'm inclined to support the planning commission. I mean, I think originally they were the ones who brought it up and said, oh, maybe it would be good to expand it so we could have some little subcommittees that aren't, don't make it illegal to have the majority meet to work on a specific issue. But I guess when they discussed it, they decided no, it works pretty well the way it is. So if that's the case, it seems like Paul, most people show up, right? You have pretty good, there was a period of time when it was, there's one or two people that that was a challenge and then that changed, right? So they're pretty much here. Broadly speaking, they're pretty good attendance on both boards for those who rise. Paul, can you come to the table so folks on the committee? Paul Conner, director of planning and zoning. So to answer your first question, councilor, really yes. We have pretty good attendance across the board. The remote technology has enabled even an improvement in that, which is great. Statutes do authorize alternates to planning commissions and development review boards. It's something that I'd probably want to chat with our city attorney to make sure that there's no conflicting within our charter, but it is something that can be explored as councilor Coda spoke to as to how to, best practices for how to do something like that. Are alternates appointed? I should know this. Alternates appointed by the council? Yes. Okay. Can we do it? We do it as necessary or as needed. Is that general practice? It would be an alternate for a period of time. So it wouldn't be an alternate for a project. It would be an alternate for, just as you would point a full member for the next period of time. And then as needed in a given project, there would be procedures during which that person comes in. I think we had one with the development review board a few years ago when the procedure was that if the board was down to five voting members that the bench would start. Well, if we were to pursue that, I would think that might be where you have former planning commission members or project review, so that they understand the process and know what it's about versus I think it would be really hard to be an alternative and just get to, be asked to come in on two issues for two meetings. But you might find a former DRB member who has lots of time on his hands that wants to be an alternate. I would think the former one, like a maritime or something, and you could fill in like that, but that's not the discussion for the moment. Okay. So we're fine with letting that go. All right, the last item, are we gonna go into executive session for this or not? It's approval of a lease for 19 Gregory Drive. So we have attached, this has already been in the public record because the CWSD board approved it. We do have the executive director online as well, as well as our real estate broker. So it's already in the public domain. You can approve it as tonight, but because we didn't talk about our last meeting, we wanted to give you the option to go into executive session if you so chose. But if you're happy with it as presented, you can approve it in open, you have to approve it in open session anyway. Okay. You can stay in open session if you want. Happy enough to go into executive session. Personally, is that, is everyone else amenable? Yeah, repeat that. I said, I'm not interested in going into executive session on something that's already public knowledge. I wouldn't be if the lawyer winks or something says that we should. No, it'd only be if you need some sort of legal opinion for me on this that isn't clear from what's in front of you. Okay, so do you wanna just give us an update on this a little quickie? Yeah, absolutely quick. It was a long lease. Quick walk through it, it's a long lease. You know, it's, it is, let me just find that. It is a lease that has initial term of five years. It's $15 a square foot. It's a portion of the 19 Gregory Drive building that was previously leased to another tenant. We found out earlier this year that they would not be renewing the lease. And so with the help of our broker, Mike Siminoe, we were able to find a new tenant and a Chittin' Solid Waste District. If you approve this lease, the $15 a square foot would increase by 2.5% each year. After five years, they would have the option to renew for another five years. But they would also have the option to terminate the lease after seven years if they chose to do so. So it could potentially be for seven years or 10 or just five. The big thing about this lease is that CSWD will be performing the fit up for the lease. So the first three months of the lease will be rent free as they perform fit up, which means walls configuring the office space to their liking and they will pay for that with our consent to the moves that they're making, the construction they're making. Once the fit up period is concluded, the end of the three month period, they will commence paying rent. If fit up is finished before that, they can move in without paying rent. But so the rent will begin after the three month fit up period is over. And also if the fit up period takes longer, they'll be paying rent at the same point after the three months is expired. So it's a lease agreement that fills a hole in the budget that was left by our other tenant vacating. It's also a portion of the building that could potentially be occupied by another tenant in the future because it's only a portion of that 19 Gregory Drive second floor. And just for non legal commentary, we were really pleased to welcome this tenant into the building. It's a government tenant, a tenant that we have a partnership relationship with already a long standing organization that's gonna be around for a while and be doing business with us for a long time. Oh yeah, I think that'd be great, Kent. Question? Yes. What offices are they vacating to come to Gregory Drive? So go ahead, Andrew. Yes, so as I understand, they're currently located in the Merv Center off over in Willison, so they'd be... Avenue C or D, yeah, correct. Yeah, okay, okay. And the last question is, are they gonna cart away their own construction debris from the fit up? That was not a serious question, they're right. I imagine, that was not a detail we talked about, but that is their business, so I hope, yeah. They're gonna sort it first though. So it'd be nice piles of similar stuff. I'm comfortable with making a motion. Excuse me, if you can look to your materials as the motion's in there, but I would, if you'd like me to read it, I can just read it. Oh, got it. I moved to approve the lease agreement being negotiated between the city and CWD as presented. I authorizing the city's administration to negotiate and settle the lease agreement's final details, such as the dates fit up will begin and rent and occupancy will commence and authorize the city manager to execute the lease agreement on behalf of the city. Amen. Second. Second. All in favor? Aye. Aye. Aye. Good enough. So is there any other business? Oh, go for it. Vote for CSWD, Bond. Sorry. Yeah, I would hope that we could take up gas powered leaf blowers, you know, in time for spring at least. I'd be happy to do that. Seems like it's, so shall we put that on an agenda? Is that what you're requesting, Meg? Yeah, I am. Yeah. I think our next meeting is pretty packed. Can I humbly request that we'd have to draft an ordinance for that, which I'm happy to do, but can we get through the budget? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, and time for next spring. Yeah, next spring. We can have it in place if we're going to do something probably by spring. The leaf blowing season's over. It is. The wind is taking everything now. Yeah, yeah. And Burlington has an ordinance. Right, right. And I'd love to know what the results of that ordinance have been and whether they've had to have enforcement issues and what the feedback's been from the landscapers about capital costs or whether they've just had to modify contracts saying, we're not going to blow the grass that's cut. We're just going to let it sit there. Or, you know, are they using brooms? I don't know. I use a rake, but that's just me. Well, you're hired. Okay. Any other business? All right, we'll see y'all at the polls tomorrow. Oh.