 Welcome to another episode of Reclaim Today. I'm Jim Groom. And I have the distinct pleasure of inviting and talking to Jolie Tingen, who is a product manager for the KITS platform at Duke University. And it's an interesting project. I hope you dig it as much as I do. So let me, without further ado, add Jolie into the stream. Hi, Jolie. Hi. Do you feel like we've done this before? I do. Thanks for being so patient with me. So thank you for being on Reclaim Today. I appreciate that. And I also want to say I've done a little research before the session and kind of obviously I've been following your work with KITS for a while now. But I also learned as I was getting ready to introduce you that before you worked at Duke University, you were at Wake Forest University. And I think that's not Dora, North Carolina. That's in Winston-Salem. Is that right? Yeah. And so I wanted to ask you something without digging too deep in is I went there recently because they were a domain school and we kind of went down there and worked with. And I was blown away because I had never seen so many instructional technologists in my life. There were like 20 instructional technologists in every discipline. It was a room full. And I was like, oh, these must be the faculty and the administrators. They were all structural technologists. So what's going on down there? Yeah. So I started working at Wake in the late 90s. And I kind of stumbled into that position. I didn't even know anything about instructional technology. I have a conservatory background and decided to kind of shift into technology and ran into someone actually that I knew who was working at Wake and told me about their plan for the class of 2000. That's when they started their laptop initiative where they were going to give every student a new laptop starting with the year 2000. And they decided, well, hey, we're not going to just throw technology at people. We're actually going to provide them the support that they need to use it effectively for their teaching. So as part of their initiative, they hired, I think the initial number was 10 instructional technologists that were going to be embedded in the academic departments that would have both technology knowledge and also discipline-specific knowledge. So I have a conservatory background. I was a music major. And I ended up in the music and theater departments helping them use technology, which was interesting for me. I mean, I was very much at home there. And I learned a lot about theater technology because being a music major at a conservatory, obviously, you focus quite a bit on your thing, right? So it was just a lot of fun. And that's why I was there for so long. I was there for like 15 years. So I have to say, we've lived parallel instructional technology lives because I was a university. I was trying to get my PhD as an American lit professor at City University of New York, but I got a fellowship as a instructional technologist and then went to Mary Washington, University of Mary Washington, which, like Wake Forest, had five or six dedicated instructional technologists embedded in the different disciplines. And I was thinking about this recently. Wouldn't that be a nice return for schools right now to actually return to this idea of a focused discipline-specific because of the explosion of applications that are discipline-specific? It's super interesting. Our history almost is like coming full circle to its new. And whoever knew that instructional technology in ed tech would be like the single most important thing in 2020. I know, right? I think that it's been all about the tools over the past year, right? And so we're looking at it's unfortunate, under unfortunate circumstances, but we're glad to see faculty also have an opportunity to take time to rethink their teaching a little bit and to learn about what possibilities there are. Yeah, so it's cool. This conversation kind of came to be because I had reached out to the good folks at Duke University seeing if giving you all work with Sakai as your learning management system, if you had figured out or had been playing with the LTI integrations between WordPress. So we're getting kind of techy here. But forgive me, it's just basically how do you get WordPress to live inside the LMS? And the school I was working with figured it out, given an open source plug in that was developed at University of Edinburgh, so good for them. But it reminded me, obviously, of the kids' work you all are doing, given that that would all be about LTI integration and APIs and the idea of many apps living within the LMS. So it's interesting how we came to be, but can you tell us a little bit about kids, assuming that no one has any idea what you and I are just talking about? Right, exactly. So I mean, I think one of the biggest challenges in using technology for teaching is that you may need more than one tool. The LMS may not be the only thing that works for you. It may not work for you at all. And so then how do you easily share the tool that's right for you with your students? And kids alleviates that. It sort of creates a new center point other than the LMS that allows you to set up the tools that you need for your teaching around your roster so that there's a single group for many tools. So you're managing that group of people in a single place. And it's easy to set up tools for that group of people regardless of which ones they are, which ones you need to use. So we don't have every tool connected to kids, but we have many because it's been around for a decade at Duke. We've just recently spent a lot more time making it more user friendly, more of a front door for faculty and for students, a place where they can go and easily get started and streamline that process of setting up the tools they need for their course and making sure that if they add their TA, it shares that TA with all the tools that they've set up, not just the LMS or a single tool. It's interesting, Julie, two things you mentioned there that I think kind of almost come back to what we were talking about when we were reminiscing about how we came up in ed tech is the idea that the LMS and love it or hate it, it's been around as long as we have in this field and it's become the kind of monolith that everyone uses. It's the one tool, one ring, right, to rule it all. But what you're suggesting with kids is actually like, well, no, given the complex nature of applications and how many there are now, schools got to rethink how they manage applications and how they provide different applications for different courses based on need and based on what the topic is, right? Or what the discipline is. So it kind of goes back into the idea of discipline specific applications. And so kids kind of fits that bill, doesn't it? It definitely does. I mean, so I'll just say this about kids and I think this maybe helps think about where it lives and the whole ecosystem. We always talk about our ecosystem, our ecosystem of learning technologies. We've always, let's say over the past 20 years, thought about the LMS as kind of the center. You think about sending everybody to the LMS, they go set up their site and if there are other tools that we would like to bring into the ecosystem, we plug them into the LMS. So everybody goes to the LMS, they set up their site. If there are other tools they want to use, they add those tools to their site. What we're hoping is actually that people go to kits and kits is kind of like one level up. The LMS is one of the tools that's part of kits. So it's not the center, the LMS is not the center point anymore. For us it's kits, which is one level up in the LMS and our ecosystem. So I hope that kind of helps conceptually how we're envisioning this. We're not saying don't use the LMS or if the LMS is a perfect fit for you, use the LMS. But rather than making that the center point, we want to shift the center point to a different level. So that people understand all the tools that are available to them, not just the LMS. And I think one of the things that really highlighted that for me is as I look through kits, like there's the application box, there's WordPress, there's Slack, obviously Sakai, and all of these different tools. But like if a teacher or a professor or a student for some reason wanted to use Slack for a project, the brilliance of kits is that when you select that, it obviously introduces it into the course as ecosystem so that other people can get access to that. And then it's not part of the brilliance of kits as I see it from the outside. And that's kind of a bigger technological challenge is to how to make it easier for everyone to have a shared tool to use at any given point. And it seems like what you all have done by bringing it outside the LMS is allowed for a certain amount of integration of the tool for many people who are part of a group. That group is a course, but also can you give access across tools to that group rather than just one tool. And that's a really big approach. Like that is bringing everything up a level. And it's really important because it's all about user management in some ways and permissions. Yeah, and discoverability, right? One of the issues that we have, but we hear it from our Office of Information Technology as well, we buy these tools, people don't know that they're even available to them, how or why they might use them. And so we've included with kits what's called the App Store. And you don't have to actually be in the process of setting a kit to go view those apps. It's kind of in a high level menu. It says App Store at the top. And you can click on that and you can go and view it in this sort of card-like view, all the apps that are connected to kits. And one of the things that we've done is not only kind of made it more visible and more browsable, but for every application, there's a link that goes to a page that talks about why you might use it. What's it good for? Why would you choose this thing? To help people make the right kind of choice, the right kind of selection for their need. It could be for collaboration. It could also be for just for teaching. It depends on what the kit is for, because even though we have kits connected to our student information system, obviously, because we wanna make it easy for faculty to set up tools for their courses, you can also go create a kit yourself and then add who you want to to that kit. So if a student wanted to create a study group or any kind of project, maybe they're working on a project together and they want a box folder or maybe they wanna set up MS teams so they can share files and have different channels, all of that is possible. Yeah, I mean, I love that. And I wanted to say, I mean, one of the things I've read about when I was reading about kits and I've been following your work is it seems like from 2019 to 2020, you started to get permissions built in where a student could share it not only with the course, but maybe just the faculty or TA or just keep it for themselves. So they actually are able maybe to share it with a group of people, like you said, or create a separate kit. And that idea of these not just being about the course, although the course is kind of like the base level of how we think about instruction on higher ed in general, it can kind of, in some ways, spin off of that, which is really impressive. How did you get, I'm sorry, go ahead. We have this thing called the custom length tool and really it's just a way to put a nice little icon on your kit that links to any share by link application or resource. And that is a tool that's actually available to students. So if a student were to log into kits and see a kit that looks like a card with some icons on it for all the apps that the faculty have set up and let's say they're taking CompSci 201 and they go to the kit for CompSci 201, if there's a resource that they're using for their learning or replace their own repo where they're doing work, they can use that custom link tool to add it to the kit and that's only visible to them. But again, it kind of keeps all the resources together. If the faculty member were using something that's outside of our ecosystem, but they could share it by link, they could use the custom link tool and put that on the kit to keep everything together. So I love that idea though that usually students, like if you think about like an LMS course site, they can't, students can't do anything for themselves. They can submit an assignment, they can maybe respond to a forum post, but they can't add anything for their own learning. So I love that idea and we may take that further, but this is just sort of the first step of just giving students an agency there and some control. Super cool. Now, one of the things I was struck by is that this is a collaborative project between I think it's the University of Information Technology, I mean, the university, the Office of Information Technology right around the frame and learning innovation. How has that worked? I mean, that's a very interesting collaboration that makes a lot of sense. You would need that in terms of the integrations with permissions, however you're doing single sign-on and APIs, like what's that been like, that project or that part of the project? Yeah, it's been great. I mean, one of our key developers is, you know, the main developer of this tool. She's been working on it for over a decade. So, you know, she's got a lot of great historical knowledge there, but it's really, it's been great. I have a great team that works on kits, but they are not dedicated to kits. That kits is not the only thing they work on. So that's been, you know, the hardest part of it, because I would love for us to be able to do more, do more with kits. I'm struck by the fact that it's been around for a decade. So the back-end piece, the back-end piece has been around for a decade, yes. Wow. That's super cool. And actually WordPress is the whole reason that we started this. We wanted an easy way to connect WordPress to rosters. So that was a big part of why we went down this path was when we got WordPress at Duke. Multi-use WordPress. And that would make a lot of sense because it also, that was a time before the LTI integration was robust at all. And so you had to do it on your own. So it really started out of having those two tools talk to each other. Yeah, exactly. And then that's just, okay, so now WordPress can, why can't box? Why can't Slack? Why can't, you name the tool and then you have an app, like you said, an app store of applications that you can share. And the really cool part is the ability for the course to immediately provision permissions for folks to those applications. Because making it easy and making it seamless is like the key. Like you can say use these apps and use them separately and everybody goes out but there's no really cohesion. And without that sense of cohesion that kits deliver, the whole thing, that's why the LMS has ruled, right? Is because it has cohesion because it's one tool. But I think as a community and as a field, we're reaching the hard limits of the LMS to really deal with all the different needs we have as a learning community and based on the different apps et cetera stuff we've already talked about. So it's an interesting challenge. Yeah, absolutely. And our group, our main user group, when we think about folks who are not the LMS users, right? People who for some time have not used the LMS, we're talking about math faculty, we're talking about computer science faculty who've had their website for their course for forever. And they're using their own tools that may not be the typical LMS tool, right? You know, we've kind of kept those folks in mind. If we look at who's not using the LMS, this is these are the people, right? And then we learn more about some of our stats faculty who have these beautifully designed WordPress sites and then they're using a GitHub repo and a variety of other tools. And but I recently interviewed because part of what the best part of my job is I get to go out and talk to faculty about what they're doing. I set up interviews all the time to learn how to improve kits and just understand what people are doing. And I interviewed someone recently who teaches at Duke, they teach international students. There's a set of courses that international students can take to improve their writing presentation skills if they feel like they need it, right? It's not required. They is totally optional for them to sign up. But this was not a tech savvy faculty. She was very, very upfront about that. And she was really outside of the people that we think about who kits is a good fit for. But one of our consultants said, hey, go here and set up the tools that you need. And she just talked about how she loved it, how easy it was, how everything was in one place. I was like, success. Exactly. That's an ed tech home run, right? Yeah, it's a home run. So I mean, that really does beg the question, how has the broader community taken to kits? Like, what has been the response? How has that kind of been for you as the person? And I know the difficulty of that. I mean, being out in front of WordPress, multi-site very early and trying to push that around a community, everyone's like, oh, the LMS, that does everything. Why do I need another tool? Have you run into similar issues? Absolutely. I've even run into it at Duke who people who are like, they think of kits as another tool and it's really not, it's just an entry point. And they think they're introducing something else. And so that has been an education piece, an opportunity to kind of talk to folks about, this is all the same tools you're using, just a different entry point for your students. I reached out to our academic resource center to talk about this kind of really from a student perspective. The students are the ones who benefit the most from having a single entry point, right? And got really great feedback from them. They think that kits is gonna be extremely useful for students. And I'm in the process of trying to gather more data around student usage and how it can benefit students. I've mainly focused on faculty up to this point. But even outside of Duke, people who've reached out to me, I wrote an EDUCAUSE article last fall that prompted a lot of people to reach out to me about kits and ask questions. And from a different groups of people, but even one person who contacted me from school in California, I can't remember which one. I think either an instructional designer or a learning technologist, she said, I don't understand, don't you have these tools connected to your LMS? Some of them we do, yes, but we're trying to shift away from the LMS. And it just, to me, it was a very logical question, right? Cause forever the LMS has been the entry point and the place to put your tools so that faculty can get them all in one place. And other schools who really feel the pain of a very large ecosystem that they hear a lot from their faculty and their students, we have to go all over the place. I talked to a university who has three LMSs. So it's, and they want some, they would love to have something like kits in place to help alleviate those pain points of just finding what you need or making it easy to find the tools and set them up or from a student perspective, just find the tools for their specific course in a single place. So I mean, I think it's, that does make sense. Like, I mean, not only that, but also just the use of stuff like Slack and Microsoft Teams and all these other tools, which as many of us are moving to online learning or at least hybrid to say the least, like there's need for tools that are a little bit more synchronous, or asynchronous in kind of thoughtful, kind of stripped down ways that work really well on mobile. And there's bigger questions. I mean, the whole idea of kits, right? You, it's even said at some point on the Duke website, it's the kind of poster child for the next generation digital learning environment, right? Like, and that's no easy acronym, NGDLE. It's a bigger concept that comes out of some folks at EDUCAUSE who talked about this idea of like the LMS while still in some way central needs to be decoupled based on these applications and create more of an ecosystem to your point earlier. And so kits is the real first and it's hard to be first, I think, but it's the real first kind of like example of what that could look like where the LMS is no longer always the center of every course at the university. And it's really powerful for that to push in there and do that. So how I could imagine though that a lot of people are still like, wait, no, we have Sakai, what are you, I don't need another tool. Right, yeah. And Sakai itself has a lot of tools. So, so I understand, you know, I totally get the overload. But yeah, I think that, you know, I think that was the real struggle when the NGDLE article came out, when there's that initial research on what's next for the LMS and how that's what came out of that sort of thinking of how to look beyond the LMS or what's next. And it's just hard to wrap your head around, right? And I'm glad that we have an example of what you might do to achieve something like that. We don't have a big analytics initiative at Duke. I think we hit on most of the aspects of NGDLE. The only thing that might be missing from our perspective because we haven't had a lot of interest at Duke or push to move in that direction is the analytics piece. But there is a big opportunity once you start having a single place where you provision tools to sort of aggregate that data, either from the learning technologies perspective, and we're trying to analyze usage and the value tools are bringing to our faculty. If they're a good fit, if they're underutilized, why they're underutilized, or maybe they need to be replaced. But also from the faculty perspective, if there's any interest in using that data to improve your teaching, then, you know, we're thinking about that, we're just being cautious, right? We're being cautious about that because it can also be used in other ways that we don't think are pedagogically great, but we actually encourage faculty, we have a fantastic assistant director of our research and development arm in Duke Learning Innovation who helps faculty do research around their teaching. And so that's a possibility for us, right? So we're thinking about that, we're just being very thoughtful about how we approach that piece and really prioritizing refining the tool and actually getting it to open source, right? That's a plan for us is to open source kits to share it. And so, yeah, and the pandemic has just slowed us down some, but we're getting there. I can imagine. Now, two things, one is I would love if you are so willing and we could even maybe set this up to give a little demo for folks that they might be able to see kit and it work, whether through an image or whether through your browser, that would be excellent. I would love to see that if you could do that. And then the other thing would be in terms of the NGDLE, like has that in some ways, has kits given you a sense of like, and what NGDLE maybe need was an example. And so has this kind of given that whole movement or that theory at least, I don't know if it's a theory, it was almost like speculative, like this is what it could be. Has it grounded that in something that like people like Malcolm Brown have kind of used and promoted? And have other schools taken it up? Absolutely, we are associate provost, Matthew Raskov. Last, yeah, yeah, he did a presentation at the last EDUCAUSE, the last in-person EDUCAUSE, and I was there to talk about our work on kits because he's, that was all sort of Malcolm trying to find good examples to bring forward to talk about people who were kind of moving in that direction, universities who have done some work around NGDLE and what that might look like. So, and then of course I did the article, Malcolm was super supportive of that. And we have a lot of universities reach out to us and because of the past year with so many faculty relying more heavily on tools for their teaching, more universities are kind of feeling like, hey, we might really want to look more seriously for something like kits. So more universities have reached out to us over the past year to talk to us about kits and are getting a little bit more serious about exploring it. And that's people here in the United States, it's people overseas, international universities. So I've done so many demos, I've probably done 50 demos over the past year because people are interested for sure but I think this past year has really pushed the issue a bit more, yeah. And it makes sense because people are already there now, Microsoft Teams, Slack, Zoom, WordPress or the LMS, like they're there, like the kits idea is no longer going to come as a shock to anyone. And then what you're all doing is saying, we're going to make it cohesive and clean. It's brilliant, like it's a lineup. The pain points have just become more, more acute this year, right? So the pain points it solves. So we're grateful to have it, we've seen a lot of adoption but I think that's also why people are reaching out to us. So we've got to have these problems. If we could push you for your 51st demo. So we can get a little bit of that works but I just think it's after talking about it, it'd be nice for people to actually see it, like how it works. I have another browser window up that has kits in it. So if you just share your screen, it's down at the bottom. Make sure that works cleanly. I'm going to remove myself. All right, how about this? Can you see this? Oh, look at that. So let's try again. Okay, I'm going to remove. Sorry about that, how about this? Any luck? I think I'm going to have to share an image. That's excellent. You can share an image, no problem at all. Yeah, I don't really know. Oh wait, there was, you know what happened? Yay, there was a, I'm going to try it one more time. There was a pop up behind my window. Oh, exactly where I could see it. Prompting me to share. See, if I would have done this in kits, none of this would have ever happened. If Woody would have gone right to the police, none of this would have ever happened. Let's do this, I'll remove. One more try, here's this. The pop up did not come up again, so maybe that was something else. Let's do this. I intentionally planned for still images. Okay, that's fine. Maybe I have, you know what? Let me try something here. I'm going to try and share my screen and I'm going to go here to this one. And it's going to be a little bit, I'm going to have some images on this, so this might work, so let's see if this works. How about that? This is a blog post that has some of the images from kits, does this work? Yeah, let me try one more time. I want to share, I actually have something that I have a faculty member who's an early adopter and he's allowed me to share exactly what he's doing. So I like to show something that's real life. So let's come back to that if I can't get this other image to appear. Are you using Chrome? I am. Yeah, I'm using Firefox. Okay, let me try again. I'm going to do share screen. How about this? Any luck? Not seeing it here yet. Maybe if another, if you're in, if you open up Chrome independently, I hate to think that this is Chrome specific, but. Yeah. Ah, you know what? We could, I could. There's one. I should probably, I haven't tested in Firefox so I can't even say if that's the issue. So I can speak with no authority there. Yeah, it's telling me the browser can't access my screen. So let's go back to yours. Okay, deal. And I can go wherever you like, so you tell me. So what you're seeing here in this specific screenshot is one of our kits. So this would be like a first statistics class. And, you know, this would be a card where specific apps have been set up. Somebody's added Sakai. They've linked to their Slack team. They have a Box folder. They must be using Qualtrics for maybe some like class feedback. And then the class site is maybe their web, their beautifully designed website that I talked about some of our stats faculty have. And maybe they're using Sakai. It's a Sakai grade book. This is very typical. I actually worked specifically with a faculty member who had this beautiful, she was a statistics faculty who had a beautiful WordPress site. She was using GitHub. And she was, if you went to her Sakai site, it was just the grade book. That was all she had and called it in her class site. So that's pretty typical. But this is really great though, because it does, it like takes the grade book out of the LMS and that's a piece. And then do students, are students like able to log in like say to Box and Qualtrics like they'll have their Duke ID and that will be passed through a single sign-on. So they'll be able to seamlessly jump in there and not have to worry about logins or anything. It will take them exactly where the professor wants them and vice versa. Does that make sense? Yes, that's correct. And so when a faculty member first logs into kits, you know, these cards that you see here in the screenshot, they will see a card for every course that they're teaching in a given semester. The way the main page is organized is semester is at top. So if you're teaching, whatever the current semester is, there'll be a heading for that semester. And then the cards will be for each course that you're teaching. And they'll be blank because you haven't set anything up yet. Unless you have actually gone into Sakai and set up a course site, we have it so well connected to Sakai so far, we're actually gonna take that even further. It's the most complicated tool we work with because it's the LMS. But we actually have it set up so that if you log into kits and you've already set up a Sakai site, you will see a Sakai icon on the card. If you've not set up Sakai yet, you will have a blank card for your course that's a kit and you'll be able to add Sakai and set it up if you would like to do that through kits instead of through Sakai. And it's so cool, like the whole like ad app, the interface is super nice. I like that each course is a card and each two cards can be separate. Like I see on another card, that's kind of shaded out a little bit. You see WordPress, you see Qualtrics, maybe a Wiki and obviously a place where they share files and Sakai. Like it's, I think when I think of next generation digital learning environments and I followed that conversation since it kind of started in 2015, I really do think you all were able to put a kind of framework on that. So now I have something and it's very elegant. It's very simple, it's course-based, but like you said, it can break out of the course. Like I really do like the way and then you can add apps all the time based on integration. And again, people can add a custom link, which is a big, which is pretty powerful too. Just the idea that these are links that are separate from the LMS and don't necessarily need to be locked down by it. And it also helps us too. I mean, we don't mean to be prying into what other people do, but I mean, we want to know what the gaps are, right? From a learning technology perspective, if we're not meeting people's needs or if there's a specific tool that we find that there's 200 custom links and courses a semester for a specific tool, well, maybe we should really look at licensing that tool. How is it helping faculty? So it helps us too to know what people are using and also potentially to get ahead of any kind of concerns that might be around privacy, data concerns for tools that might fall in that category. Out of curiosity, what applications do you have available to your community that are just basically a single sign-on ready to go? Yeah, last year, we quickly added teams. We had a lot of teams in Zoom happen very quickly. Our developers moved very fast. Within a week, we had both of those. But we have Fox and we have Teams and our Duke Wiki, which is Confluence, Atlassian Confluence. We have Piazza and Sakai and WordPress. We have ListServe, Simpa, if people wanna just use a simple ListServe. Warpwire and Zoom, and we have our virtual computing manager, which is a way to set up VCMs for courses that need computing resources, like computer science courses or statistics or other kinds of computing heavy in courses. You could, theoretically, have a LAMP environment. Like, oh, here's a LAMP environment if your class wants to learn HTML and PHP. Yeah, I think that's one of the options for our VCM, right? Like, you have a dropdown of different environments that you can set up. And some are actually configured for specific courses. You'll see the name of the course in the stack, right? On the list. An image for that course that has just what your faculty member or whoever wants you to work within. Yep. And then, in effect, what you're talking about is the app store here for the apps that are close, but then it goes into, like, cloud computing. Right? Absolutely. Like, spinning up, you know, probably AWS-driven cloudlets or whatever, you know, environments that are able to kind of provide students a space to work. Yeah. Yeah, and you'll see that. We have Panopto here in this list. We have temporarily removed Panopto because we're trying to move to Panopto cloud. Yeah. And it's just, it sort of complex the way that it works now and it's not necessarily playing well with our, the back end of kits is, it uses a grouper. You know, Duke uses grouper, which is a open source group management tool. And so we had some, we experienced some challenges with Panopto and grouper provisioning it this way. People are still able to use it as they used it before because we have Panopto set up for all the different schools. So we have kind of different versions of it based on the school. So, yeah. So that's, A question on grouper just out of curiosity because one of the cool things you're doing with this is allowing, you know, groups of people, you know, through I imagine your identity management system to have access based on course, enrollment or whatever. Is that, is grouper the kind of, you know, identity management tool that allows you to do what you're doing with kits? Not entirely. So what we have is, I mean, it also still relies on LDAP and looking at people's groups that they're, that they're in, right? All the different identity groups that they have who, what they have access to. But grouper is connected to our student information system as well. And so it is actually the source of some other tools on campus that need access to that data. And kits is kind of like the broker of that. I'm sorry, grouper's kind of like the broker of that. So that's how kits uses grouper. But it also uses grouper if you go in and create your new kit and you create, so the kit is actually just a group, right? It's a group of people with a name. And that is also using grouper. It does create a group for that ad hoc or team-based, project-based group. So it consumes, it creates groups from the student information system for the courses. So that becomes the roster groups. And then we set up groups just through creating a new kit. So, but it still looks at membership from LDAP as well. Sure. No, that's, I mean, that's where it really is. You know, the ability, that's what you don't want to talk about. You don't want people to see because that's the cohesion piece like no one should have to think about. But even that's kind of what we do with C-Panel and better than WordPress for people to get up and running and like what you're doing, have apps that they can one click install. It's a powerful thing to figure out how you're making it cohesive so people don't have to think about all that. Yeah. Yeah, it's complex. I have a recommendation or maybe just an idea for you. It's kick, right? And so I'm thinking because I'm an 80s guy, like, are you thinking David Hasselhoff, night rider, car, like you could do a whole branding campaign. Yeah. Might want to be a nice little 80s, you know, muscle car I don't know if Hasselhoff is kosher. So I don't want to go too deep down that car. The car is pretty, you know. I can hear the theme music. Now I'm going to hear the theme music every time I open kits. I'm going to hear that theme music. It's just an idea. And the red light back and forth. Because it's kind of like how from 2001, but it's a little bit groovier and a little bit 80s and David Hasselhoff, involved. So like you could get some traction with kits. Cars on campus. Excellent. I'm getting all kinds of ideas. I love it. I really, really appreciate you coming on this. Joey to reclaim today and talking about the work you all do kits. I will be following it closely. I really agree with you. Like I think the time is now. For people to start thinking, you know, not only beyond the LMS, I mean, because the LMS is here and it's not like it's going away, but like there's so many other tools in the ecosystem that are necessary. And the point you made also about how kits becomes a natural segue to cloud computing, to various environments, which will allow people to run applications for digital humanities, for hardcore computer engineering, for digital engineering, for digital humanities, for hardcore research commuting, but this gives them all a place to live. Yes. And I think that's what's so important and crucial. It provides that gateway for all of these and allows people to organize them, you know, thoughtfully based on the larger structure in the university. So it's cool stuff. It really is a pleasure to talk to you about it and, you know, finally dig in a little bit and see, you know, and hear how you're approaching it. And I'm fired up here. Awesome. Thank you, Jen. Well, thank you, Julie. And I think if I can, it's never clean with me as you have already figured out. I'm going to try and play the outro here. Okay. We'll see how this goes. So, you know. If you get removed, it's not personal. It's purely, purely recycling business. Here we go.