 and that maybe will help those of us, I include myself in this, who tend to be a conflict averse, to actually not maybe look for it, but not be afraid of it when it comes to us. Because there might be something we can learn here, we might be able to become more skilled. And the only way that we can become more skilled is not by reading it in a book, but by having by actually going through the conflict. Well hello and welcome to the show Judy. Well hello AJ, hello Johnny and thank you for welcoming me, it's great to be here. And of course the theme of this month is conflict resolution. We were talking a little bit before the show, how we ended up on this, and last year we released an episode on conflict resolution, really looking at conflict and our personal relationships, family and friends and how to deal with that. It's a question that comes up a lot for us in our courses and that episode was wildly successful. So Johnny and I thought, all right let's bring in the experts and let's go even deeper on conflict resolution and we really enjoyed your book and your expertise on conflict. So we'd love to dig in a little bit more today. I'd love to know how did you get started focusing on conflict resolution because it doesn't seem like very many people are even focused on it. No it's true and I'm not surprised that your podcast was wildly successful because everyone wants to know how to do it and it's harder and harder I think because the way that conflict is usually seen you know on our screens now is not very a good event. So I got started in a personal way because I wasn't very good at it either. This is a long long time ago but I mean I grew up in a Midwestern family where dad was right, mom helped you know and you know it was my way or the highway with my family you know the kids just did what they were told. So I learned really early on how to accommodate very well and I'm still really good at it by the way so I call myself an approval-seeking missile. So if you want anything from me I'll say yes so just ask. On the other hand right so somewhere maybe in my you know late 30s 40s I'm in the workplace and I'm finding out so the career I'm in now which is teaching conflict and communication skills is about a 25-year career and I'll tell you how that got started but I also had a 13-year career selling real estate and owning a couple of real estate companies. I'm an entrepreneur at heart and in the real estate business you're faced with conflict all the time and oftentimes you're in the middle of a conflict or you're in conflict with someone like a building inspector another realtor a banker somebody doesn't want to do what you want them to do and I found that I was going home and always like feeling like no one listened to me and everyone was getting their way but me and so I started looking at some of the reasons for that and around the same time I was faced with a new manager who was sort of squashing my style. I was making a lot of money for the company I didn't own my own company at the time and I felt like you know I was going to leave but the head of the company didn't want me to leave so they sent me to a course and meanwhile I really wanted to learn about conflict as I said because I had this one style and it didn't fit all so I went to the course I began to learn how to be more assertive and I have skills now so that I can say no I can express a difference of opinion I can ask for what I want it's not my first choice and this is important to know because I'll always be an accommodator and I don't mind that about myself I think it's nice sometimes you know the accommodator in the room everyone loves them right and yet it's not always great for teams either because the team needs to know where you stand if they're going to solve a problem if they're going to have an elegant solution so shall I go on sure yeah so uh so I went to this course and I met a man named Thomas Crum who became my mentor in this work and I began to learn about the martial art aikido and the metaphor of aikido at first and I became fascinated with it so I would go every year to go back and study with Tom he's still a good friend and a mentor and a man who definitely walks his talk and he's very generous always has been so he began to teach me his skills and I went to all his workshops and gradually got certified in the approach and came back and this was about the time early 90s that I was leaving the real estate world and looking for what I was going to do next uh I wanted to wake up in the morning going how I really am excited about what I'm doing now I'm going to go to you know this isn't work anymore it's play and I tried a lot of different things and since I was certified now by Tom in this icky approach I decided to try that out as one of my right options and I loved it of course and all my friends I only had friends I could invite at that time you know public workshops and my friends loved it and they said and then pretty soon their friends were calling me up and say when are you going to do this again you know this sounds really fun so I started uh offering them just publicly very organic beginning to my work and uh people started coming and gradually people came and said oh well would you do this in my school or would you do this at my office and so that's how my company grew and that's how I grew in the skills and I need to say too at this point that because I just was familiar with the metaphor and not the art itself I began to study Ikea and that was also about 25 years ago and I gradually started my own because I'm an entrepreneur my own dojo which means place of practice and so now there's supports with Ikea that is now run by one of my original students who started in high school and now owns the owns that business so it's just been such a joy I know you'll ask me more questions we'll talk more about Ikea but it's just an amazing art and an amazing metaphor for how we can deal with conflict in a more elegant graceful and solution oriented partnering way do you remember what it was about Ikea that piqued your interest the first thing that sort of grabbed you yeah I do it's because so one of the first things I grabbed down to an Ikea is that instead of resisting the attack so I know your listeners can't see this but I'm sort of walking and punching back right instead of doing that you enter you you get out of the way of the attack so if a punch is coming your way you kind of turn sideways that's all you have to do suddenly you're out of the way you move in and now you're in a position to blend with the attack energy to in fact connect with it physically and redirect it and so because I'm an accommodator right I loved that yeah I loved that and it took me a while to see the power to really understand the redirection and where the power of Ikea was and I'm sure you've seen this in other areas as well but so many people who are involved in martial arts has seen that as building blocks for conflict we have people like Joe Rogan is always talking about it when it comes to a BJJ so as Jocko Willink who of course uses that martial arts approach as well do you do you is there anything there that you can pull out that that has a universal flair with it sure in fact in my workshops and in my coaching I often ask people if they practice any martial art at all and what they have taken away from it because most of the time these are adults and they're often not practicing now they practice as kids or as teenagers and they're always saying things like well a sense of presence or I know how to collect myself when I need to I have a sense of uh heightened awareness about my surroundings I know discipline you know discipline is a big one that people take certainly yeah all things that are important in conflict yes and in life right yeah I mean when we think about that metaphor it really is beautiful for conflict as well because I think a lot of us we try to blunt the force coming at us and of course that leads to more conflict it doesn't actually get it resolved so to be able to move out of it change directions and now be both working together towards the resolution it really is a beautiful metaphor for how we should all go about conflict yes it's a beautiful metaphor and we all want to do it I think we all want to do it when we hear about it oh that makes so much sense right to show me right and yet what gets in the way so that's what's interesting why don't we do it right you want to know well I think I know but yeah no what would you say I mean ego yeah I would assume yeah that's a big one that's a big one and it's because we have been trained to be right and also our brains are releasing chemicals when we're right when we when we get that we get this like I forget which chemical it is because I'm not a brain scientist but um Judith Blazer is written about this and uh the chemicals that are released in your brain feel really good when you end up being right and people praise you for that on the other hand there are also chemicals that get released when you form a connection with someone and so when you say I don't know or can you tell me more you start to get curious and you learn there's also other so there it goes both ways but oftentimes we need to be right because of those ego hormones that that are running rampant yeah and and we were talking about this earlier our childhood right a sense of shame and embarrassment often the company's parenting so when we think about taking responsibility for something well that's shameful I'm going to lose face I'm going to be viewed negatively by my teammates and unfortunately we we put all of those in front of the resolution it's the resolution that matters the most yes because the longer conflict um is there the longer conflict is present resentment forms toxic environment is formed and I know we were laughing earlier growing up I was very conflict diverse my dad the same way my way or the highway so I knew not to get in conflict with dad so because of that you know I would ignore conflict I would sweep it under the rug oh it's fine and guess what if someone is in conflict with you and there's not a resolution it doesn't get better on its own it doesn't work that way especially in a team environment now what we loved a study that you talked about in the book in 2008 of just around how much conflict we will encounter in the workplace can you unpack that study for us and then love to know do you think it's gotten worse I I do and you know I keep I keep looking for studies that were more recent but that one was billions of dollars in wasted productivity because of conflict in the workplace and how many managers that was interesting research to aren't trained they become managers for reasons that have nothing to do with their ability to actually manage conflict and manage people sometimes so yeah the research is compelling I want to skip back for just one second about another reason that we don't that we don't blend with with it and that we don't get curious that we prefer to be right and some of that also has to do with the way that we're trained as you were saying we watch our parents and my dad was the same way and I didn't want to be like that right and so we we said well I'm not going to be like that so I'll I'll be the opposite of that and what I've learned through my studies in conflict and my experience in practicing my own teaching is that it doesn't have to be either or and that whenever we get into an either or a belief system like I either have to it's either my way or the highway or whatever right or I just give up and go limp it's not it it can be both powerful and kind we can be assertive that's what assertiveness is really it's it's being powerful and kind at the same time it's like you know thanks very much for that that offer AJ but I prefer to go somewhere else right now is that would that work for you and if it doesn't you know the other person can say I think one of the reasons it's hard to be assertive as I you know learned in my own practice because I it's not my natural proclivity is that I think it's hard because we're afraid the other person might say no and it's okay if they say no once I give that of the person the right to say no I can ask for anything I want right because they have a right to but I don't know maybe it's because of my upbringing and I didn't feel like I could say no that I worry about them feeling like they could say no right yeah it gets imprinted on you it does well this is something we're speaking about earlier of just how you're raised it has it carries ramifications in your adult life and certainly with my sister and I growing up it was we was always trying to dump the responsibility or whose fault it was on each other so that the other one we get yelled at and that's the hot potato no it won't yeah and then here comes and I remember there was a point when I was in my teens where my dad now wanted me to present things so that there was teachable moments so we could discuss them but even at those moments going up to him for the first time to to to bring this problem and terrified because he said well if you bring it to me and you're honest about it you won't get trouble it's like well anytime that I've ever done anything in the past I've gotten in trouble and now you want me to flip this around and that is a very difficult thing because those teaching moments as a teenager certainly are far and few between from all the times as a child that you had gotten yelled at for doing dumb things and so there certainly needs to be a more balanced between the two of them to come out on the other side a little bit more open to the to these ideas well one thing that that we get a lot of emails about is parents and you know understanding how to manage conflicts with kids and you know we have come out the other side knowing that well maybe our families didn't manage conflict very reasonable manner but getting these skills at a parent level to be able to imprint that on your child that no it's not just about who's right or wrong we can work together to solve this and make sure it doesn't happen again you know I think that's a missing component we talk about oh managers don't have it well it starts as kids how you're managing conflict with your siblings if you have them or the kids at school how your parents are managing conflict in the relationship and then we carry that on and we'll talk about this in a second this idea of skilled incompetence yes and so true and how detrimental it is as people rise in their career so what do you mean by skilled incompetence in the ladder of inference yeah wow two important concepts well skilled incompetence for me it has to do with habits that in fact we become very skilled at certain habits that aren't helpful and that make us incompetent at conflict when you mentioned one of the habits already I need to be right and some people get so needy about that that it doesn't matter if it's their child or their parent or their best friend or they're the manager at work and it's their employee and they'll win at all costs and it's just something that they've learned how to do somewhere from their parent or their teacher or watching the world go by you know there's a lot of people who are teaching us that habit and all we have to do to break it is to form a new one and we have to want to okay so that I mean really it all comes down to us in my in my work and in my books I talk a lot about it starts here and I know you do too with all of your teaching that I don't have any power to change you I only have power to change me and I forget it all the time okay even after all this these years of teaching it and I and when I teach it everyone says oh of course I know that but it's just it's a habit that I want you to change because you could make my life so perfect if you would be just this way and so anyway that's one habit all right I need to be right another habit is maybe that I am very skilled at avoiding at being conflict diverse and I don't want to try anything else because it might you know might get in trouble if I bring something up I've seen it happen to other people so I'm not going to do it so we have to just again what's in it for you you know if you want to have better relationships if you want to be more socially skilled then all you have to do and honestly it is this simple is to form is to practice a new habit until it becomes as rote as and unconscious as the old one was because the current one's unconscious so we don't even think of it as a habit and it is it's definitely an now the ladder of inference is another habit right that we have of jumping up so the the ladder of inference is just if you can envision a ladder you know draw a ladder on a piece of paper at the bottom of that ladder is the data okay we're sitting here at a table I have two mugs three mugs of let's say the art of charm on it we've got some iPads we're sitting three people and there's someone else watching us right and helping us make this happen so that's just some data right but I've already selected the data that I'm looking at I haven't even mentioned that there's this incredible view outside this window right that I could look at at any time and get my sort of my perspective back if I decide to that that there are lights that there's another office outside so there's all kinds of data but when we walk into a room especially if we're in a conflict and we see the person that we don't like in that conflict we don't see anything else but that person we miss a whole bunch of data so we've already selected now what am I going to do with that data I'm going to start to interpret it so you see each rung of the ladder I get a little higher and a little farther away from the actual data the actual facts that are happening in the room so when I finally get to the top of the ladder usually there's a conclusion maybe I've made an interpretation that this person has a sour face you know maybe they're maybe they're just busy at work and and they're they're focused and they're concentrated but because I've had some other interactions with them it's really easy for me to to make an interpretation that they're upset and so then I wonder what they're upset about maybe they're upset about me maybe it's something I did maybe it's what I said at the meeting well I'm not going to say anything to them because they're obviously upset with me and so I've begun to form a story a narrative that this person doesn't like me and they're upset with me and so I stopped talking to them and then what happens they stop talking to me because they think I'm upset well of course I am but you see this thing just builds and builds yeah and do you think it has a ratchet effect where once it's going in one direction it's very difficult to to go backwards yes and it's only difficult if we don't have an awareness about it right and if we don't take charge of ourselves first so anytime in that narrative in that ladder of inference story I just gave you anywhere in there I could go and I do now of course because I know about it it happens with my husband all the time right and and we have a language now that we can use with each other he'll say Judy I think you're way up the ladder and I'll go yeah you're right you know okay let me come back down tell me what actually happened or sometimes he'll catch me doing with people outside of our household you know and I'll say I think that you know Kristen said something today I think she was really upset with me I should have spoken to her he said are are you climbing up the ladder you know what happened and so then I come back down and and the one thing you pointed out there and I think this is one of the most important rungs of that ladder of inference is we then start to personalize everything so it's not just you know okay I avoided looking at the sunset out here and I avoided some data but as you move up the ladder now you're personalizing it you're saying that sour look is because of me and something I did and what we talk about in raising the self-awareness is to just note the trigger right you start to make that judgment and then to ask yourself is there another possible reason that AJ is frowning is there could there be something else that happened that would cause this and the more you start to ask that question you start to okay take a step back see more of the data and go well yeah Judy had a long ride up here to the studio maybe she was a little frustrated in traffic there's nothing to do with the email I sent three weeks ago why am I personalizing it right so these are all these moments that are happening habitually we pick them up through time not good tools to bring to the table when it comes to comfort no and we fill in those gaps and you know it's it's difficult because once again we're looking at if you're conflicted first the stories that you could have tell yourself could be so wild and and and and to the regular person hearing this narrative where there's sort of like that is actually kind of crazy but yet it's very rational to you because you put it all together yes and with that ladder of inference what what ends up happening as you climb the ladder is you stop listening mm-hmm because you feel like you've taken enough data you've reached your conclusion I've inferred everything I need to know about this situation so you can block out the sunset so to speak and that's really one of the first tools you talk about with conflict resolution is we have to come in listening yes if we're not listening the conflict is not going to be solved that's right and AJ something else about what you said which is that not only are we not listening but we're actually looking for data that reinforces right the story we and the conclusion we've created about this person I'm so there was a I'm going to come back in a minute to listening but there was a I just finished teaching a workshop here in Long Beach and and it was interesting because there were a lot of wonderful people there and it's easy in any workshop to to sort of pick out people that are more friendly than others and there was one person who was just a little less friendly than some you know and I I tried to make a connection I went up you know and we talked and but it just went nowhere right and it was like that person was too busy for me and so I thought huh I wonder what's going on you know I wonder if it's something I said right so I'm already up the ladder I wonder if they're not enjoying the program all climbing higher and higher and I thought I thought to myself I bet it has nothing to do with me I bet maybe and who knows it could be something like maybe she met that person met somebody that looked like me that they don't like you know who knows I mean it could be anything back to your point when we personalize stuff it it it takes our power away it wastes energy we spend so much time in our heads thinking about why they're upset what I did when it probably has nothing to do with me and I am not the most important person in the world and when we start to make up other stories and that's all it takes we catch ourselves we come back we go hmm I wonder what maybe they're just busy like you said maybe they're just frustrated because of the traffic whatever it is when we do that we relieve a lot of stress we take stress off ourselves we stop wasting energy and we begin to focus on what's really important which is possibly finding out more about the person if that's what we want to do if we want to forge the relationship if we want to build the relationship then we might say hey is everything okay what's going on and you know I went into that little piece because we have to know what's in it for us to change our habits otherwise we just won't do it why would I want to make up another story this one works really well I like thinking she's mad at me well to go along with that as well if that is your go-to to personalize it make it though this person must be mad at me well that's all that's where you're going to go all the time and before you know it the whole world is out to get you and that is you put that together and I and when that occurs you've exactly that given up your power because now all you're doing is chasing other people's approval and acceptance yes and it's not a healthy place to be certainly not at a conflict level especially and I think what what's so interesting about this is you know we talk about these cognitive distortions on the show all the time that when you get interested in this stuff and you start realizing that this brain that we have is not interpreting the truth it is bringing its own perception into creating this reality and and inferring a lot of things that aren't there you start to realize that there are these fallacies we fall into and these patterns are not just in conflict they end up as Johnny was saying showing up in all parts of our relationship and it turns off our ability to listen it turns off our ability to be present and we talk about this that stress that physiological response creates the fight or flight and that does not help you think clearly and get to a resolution yes yes so we've identified the triggers we've identified some things that we're doing habitually even that can hinder us so how can we bring listening to the forefront and be better listeners to start in conflict yeah well uh it's pretty easy actually if you want to do it and it starts for me with curiosity I really want to know I have to really be curious and it's funny because we can ask questions all day long but we don't really want to know do you know what I mean yeah uh an example is uh I was working with a a woman at a fairly high level in a fortune 500 company one time and she was so upset by her uh co-worker who was always copying everyone on emails and sometimes made the department look bad and so uh you know I can't blame her and so she you know she was really upset and I said well let's talk about this what question would you ask let's see what's going on why would this person do this what do you think you know let's be curious about it let's let's try to posit some different scenarios and if you could ask the your manager what would or your co-worker excuse me what would you say I'd say why are you sending all those emails you know why are you copying everybody on all those emails I said that's a good question okay uh can we try asking it in a way that is actually more curious did you see how you asked that right so it's not what she said it's how she said it and she said okay let me try it okay how how is it that you're sending uh all copying everyone on all the emails I'm curious why you're doing that right and she had a really different affect to her tone I said wow that sounded really interesting she might want to actually answer that question uh what did you have to do what how did you change yourself she said well I actually had to be curious I actually had to be curious and for me that was a real um eye opener too because it made me realize that we're all of us often asking questions but we don't really want to know the answer and it's more of a command or an attack right it's hoping for a validation of the answer we've already arrived to or asked the question right well if it's not a lot of times your answer is completely ignored because it doesn't fit the narrative that they had put together and this is where empathy comes in and we've dove deep into empathy as well I think for a lot of us if we don't go in the view with this person's trying the best with whatever information or seat that they're in uh we lose that ability to be curious yes right because now it becomes accusatory yes and that person's going to feel attacked yes and I notice a difference in your tone and obviously in your words and these both matter right the way that you say it and the words that you use have a direct impact on how the other person's going to feel in that moment yes and and I will include some tips here for example the second time I said it I said how or what what what makes you want to send or copy all those people on emails instead of why are you copying everybody's emails right so to to encourage a more honest answer or open answer it helps to ask an open question and oftentimes they start with how or what another tip is that if I really want to learn where they're coming from and to really listen then I have to drop my agenda and that's often difficult to do because sometimes we don't even know we have one uh going into a difficult conversation for example it really helps if you have the ability to plan for it and it just doesn't happen to you it helps to know what's my purpose here why am I going into this conversation if it's to prove someone wrong if it's to get your way if it's it's to change somebody else's behavior that's not a useful purpose you might as well just drop it forget about it not have the conversation at all if it's to learn where the other person's coming from then that's a useful uh purpose because you can actually possibly do that if they're willing to share it with you the other tip that I offer oftentimes is that it's kind of might sound funny but it helps me this person imagine this person lives on a different planet from you and et suddenly dropped into your world you know wouldn't you want to go wow what are things like up there tell me what does it look like to you uh and that helps me a whole lot so in a real life situation um my husband and I might have an argument and I know I'm right and I might be right and it doesn't matter that's the thing it doesn't matter if you're right uh what you want to do is let that person speak and be heard and here's the benefit to that and this is the blending of Aikido so remember when I said instead of blocking and punching back I get out of the way and I enter to their side so this is what it looks like in real life this is me saying uh so tell me uh how you feel about this if you had a solution what would it be how do you think we should solve this problem in your view what would be the most elegant solution to you or even more uh dangerous maybe is uh what did I do wrong there how how would I have done things differently if um if I could to make this not this argument not have happened and it doesn't matter if they're right or not it doesn't matter if you agree with them you want to give them the opportunity to speak because once they've uh done that there's a certain uh lightness that comes over the other person because they've had their say and the other thing that has to happen here and I make a big point of this in the book is I mean it doesn't have to happen I hate to use words like that but it helps if you acknowledge what you hear that's the secret really to be able to say wow it sounds like you think that um I was upset because the computer had a technology glitch and I was just frustrated and I took it out on you is that what you're saying right right and then first of all you learn if that's what they were saying and if you're right and second of all they go yes I that's what I think happened I said well I can see how you might think that let's talk about it right so you don't go right into yeah but you know oh no you're wrong okay and and that yes is so helpful again for allowing that person to feel heard and for clarifying we talked about this in our negotiation month a lot of times it's better to get more information in the situation because we now know habitually we've we've climbed the ladder in the past and we've worked with not enough information in a conflict situation much like a negotiation you want as much information as possible because there are going to be resolutions that are outside of your viewpoint right now yeah and if you're coming at it thinking the problem is a and in your inference and your ability to listen it's a but you then go to restate it and they go no actually it's b well holy cow all these other resolutions come to the forefront now that would have been completely blocked we let our ego get in the way and we talked about this at the start of the show these the two r's in conflict is responsibility and resolution and everyone gets so hung up on responsibility shame ego everything that's tied to it right and I noticed in your answers your questions and the answers there that the responsibility was just shifted it was not that important it was understanding the underlying cause of the problem and then realizing that we're working together here right it's not a blame game what I find so hilarious about this so in our classes in our programs there on Wednesday we have a conflict resolution course at the end and we do some role playing and before we do that everyone has buy in that they're okay with taking responsibility in order to get to the real resolution they see it they understand how important it is and they understand that that is a step that you're going to have to take in order to gain some control and move it to a resolution what I find hilarious is the minute we start role playing that goes right out the window because they cannot deal with taking that responsibility and I'll be laughing and they can't figure out why they're stuck in the argument and why it's not moving to a resolution when we sat there and we broke it down I'm like you haven't you had not taken responsibility and they're like that's the second step how is that not happening because it because for your whole life you've avoided that very thing but that is the one thing that allows you to gain some control over the situation and then to be able to to move it to a resolution but they will fight and and and I feel so bad because I can see their head will go down and they get upset with themselves like it's so simple why am I still missing this because you have to break that habit that that that has been building for how long now yeah isn't it fascinating it's hilarious human beings isn't it wonderful even in a role play I know that there's no stakeholders it's a role play of going to the mechanic you don't actually have a car in the shop yet fall into this habit and and I and I personally remember when I learned conflict resolution I was so excited because at the time I just sort of avoided conflict because I didn't want it to get worse and now all of a sudden I had a roadmap and some tools so I took it upon myself to to find to find conflict just to see if I could talk my way out of it so I could get better and or we don't recommend we're just covering your bail or create conflict just to see if I could talk my way out of it and this was at this was at a time where I was managing a bar so there was plenty of conflict and I always tell the guys I'm like you should have some fun practicing this with these tools you'd be surprised just how smoothly and how fun this can be however what I will tell you is these rules go out the window if you're if you're trying to use them with somebody who's drunk it's like yes because I was working in a bar like you don't want to play conflict resolution with a drunk person they just don't care not a lot of awareness you know what's what you remind me of are a couple of things Johnny and one is that we are human beings and I've been teaching this for 25 years and it often goes out the window for me too sure all right so I think that we need to be gentle on ourselves my first thought when there there's conflict and it's not going the way I wanted to or there's a breakdown is am I taking the responsibility here did I do that have I owned up to it that is my first question because as you mentioned we're human beings I've been programmed we've been programmed and that is my first go to if there's some sort of bugged down there yes yes and the second thing that it reminded me of the idea of responsibility so in the book difficult conversations by Doug Stone, Sheila Heen and Bruce Patton great book they talk about contribution versus blame right so we're so quick to blame the other person and as you said that takes all our power away the minute we can look at the conflict from a point of view is who's who's contributed what right it may look like they've can they've done all the contribution because I'm I'm I didn't say a thing right I just I'm just sitting back and they're attacking me right but I also didn't contribute you know my contribution is that I didn't say a thing I did I am conflict averse I am an accommodator and so I didn't say hey Jenny that's not going to work for me can we talk about it and the other the third thing is that it only takes one person to change the game have you noticed that the other person doesn't have to have a lot of skill if you are skilled yes and when we talk about taking responsibility just to clarify we're not saying take responsibility for the whole enchilada and say it's all your fault to avoid conflict but even the smallest step towards the middle of I may have misheard you I may have miscommunicated I would like to clarify this alleviates us from that blame game where responsibility and who's taking it becomes the tug of war well I also remember the first time I had learned these skills and the first time I went into the conflict going in knowing how I was going to handle this and use my new skills and I was shaking when it came up to the part where I was taking responsibility because I had never done it before and I was literally shaking and I remember accepting it and and the the person that was in conflict was like they said okay and then they're looking at me like well because they didn't there's no yelling I've taken the responsibility they're now diffused and they're looking at me like well what do we do now and then I could not believe that the ball is now in my court and I laid out how I wanted to move it to a resolution and they said that sounds great and I was like that was all I needed in that moment to go I will never handle conflict though in my the way I handled in the past ever again isn't it wonderful when something like that happens it's a real that's a good moment right it's and that's where I think conflict becomes a real opportunity for us and that maybe will help those of us I include myself in this who tend to be a conflict of ours to actually not maybe look for it but not be afraid of it when it comes to us because there might be something we can learn here we might be able to become more skilled and the only way that we can become more skilled is not by reading it in a book but by having by actually going through the conflict and by figuring out so one of the things I suggest to people when I'm coaching them in particular is that in between the times we meet I ask them to keep a journal I know you've talked a lot about journaling and I suggest it you know doesn't have to be a long thing if you don't like to write you can just create like a little grid for yourself create in the first column what happened second column what I did third column how it turned out maybe fourth column what I would do differently next time and also what I appreciate about what I did right how did I do well because so often we're going so quickly to what we didn't do well and it's important even if it's only hey I had the conversation I spoke up for a change that was different and so Pat myself on the bag next time maybe I'll stay a little longer or I'll talk longer or I'll ask more questions instead of just talking right so I think it really helps to begin to change the habits that we have if we look so one of the centering practices I teach people is to look back let's say something happens at the car mechanics or I have a hard time with sales reps of all kind they can really get my they can really trigger me and I've gotten much better at it I'm happy to say but good because you got something to sell you do you know me I'll say yes but sometimes like I'll hang up and I'll go I didn't do that very well okay so I'll go back to where I got triggered in the like it's like replaying the video for myself of the phone call let's say it's a phone call and I'll go okay where did I get triggered and how could I have centered myself or how could I have taken a breath or stepped back for just a second and imagine getting to that person's side and what would I have done differently if that had happened see that's a way of repattering our our mindset our mental way of looking at it so that the next time that happens I'll catch myself sooner and there's a couple things that I took away from that one is understanding that without journaling you don't have a frame of reference to build off of and start to grow and change things so journaling raises that level of self awareness the other thing that you mentioned around raising that level of self-awareness and for most of us when we finally start to look inside is when the conflict has become resentment or the end of a relationship yes so when you get fired when you're broken up with are typically the only times for us to look internally and say okay what was I bringing to the table what was my contribution to this conflict that obviously was not resolved properly was not managed but your point that every conflict is an opportunity to learn how you behave what your patterns are what your cognitive distortions are and what you're bringing to the table so it's it's such an amazing flip of that viewpoint of like it's not something I have to avoid these are actually growth moments for me where I could be a better staff member a better teammate a better manager because right if conflict is happening it typically is two-sided it's very very rare that conflict is only one bad apple yes yes so we talked about listening I believe we were covering blending and the last step of redirecting right so we've listened we've now understood responsibility how do we go about redirecting to get to that resolution right well because of my style as I've said that's the part that took me the longest to find you know because there's a lot of power in Aikido if you watch people practicing Aikido first of all it's very graceful and the goal of Aikido is not to harm the opponent but to manage yourself to protect yourself and also to protect your partner and to turn this into more of like a dance like art uh so the power is in as I said earlier my changing myself so that I can get in next to the attacker and then redirect them and the power comes in in the throw so uh you know I'm a small person I'm five foot four away about 125 pounds and uh you know people that come at me are much bigger they're usually you know big guys on the mat and and it doesn't matter you know the bigger they are the harder they fall seriously and it's a lot of fun to throw them around and it's it's show Johnny after it's also I will say a lot of fun to be thrown uh and to fly through the air it's just great and uh the thing that you learn from falling because in Aikido falling is an art form they call it the art of Ukemi the art of receiving and the reason it's so great is that it's not losing in Aikido I fall down and get up again about a hundred times a night and what do you think that teaches me right resilience that I'm not afraid to enter the conflict because I can take care of myself I can get up again right okay so a blow comes and I go oh wow I didn't expect that all right what am I going to do right to get up again and let's say let's talk again what happened right so the redirecting so that's when I do the throw that's when I enter and throw and uh in in real life it might be so let's let's make up something so um okay so let's say uh AJ or Johnny you come at me and you say gee that's a stupid idea right that's a really stupid idea now the block and the punch back would be no it isn't it's a great idea you know what are you talking about you're stupid if you can't see it what what's wrong with you and even if I don't say it I might be thinking it um okay so in Aikido instead I might enter right to their side and I'll say uh so why do you think it's stupid what's uh you know tell me what you're thinking what specifically don't you like about it so those are three possible questions that I could ask or can you tell me more that's simple too so people are looking like for generic questions that that let's say they're taken off guard and somebody does attack them with a fairly a lot of energy like that that's a stupid idea whoa first of all I gotta take a breath I gotta think get out of the way okay well tell me more right simple what specifically didn't you like the word specific is really helpful okay and then they're gonna talk for a while and you're out of the fray you just get to listen that's the best thing about listening if you're really doing it you're not getting attacked anymore they're just talking right and you I actually you know most of this is metaphorical when I teach it in the corporate board room and uh but there's a real physical thing you can do which is if someone's face to face with you you can just turn slightly and imagine all that attack energy going by let's say they're still really upset well I think it's stupid because we can't afford it and I don't even know what what you're talking about why are you even bringing this up at this meeting right so I'm just standing like mentally and maybe even physically at their side thinking wow they're really upset how curious so I become I switch from being afraid or resistant to maybe curious or fascinated with wow this isn't a reaction I didn't expect now this is an internal I call it inner self-defense I'm safe they can hurt me I'm fascinated now the redirection comes when they're done okay and you're right they have diffused now so they've let it all out and pretty soon sometimes people can go wow I'm really sorry about that I don't know why are all this energies because I haven't done anything I haven't fought them they only keep fighting if you push back and a lot of times let's be honest they're expecting to punch back yes that's right because they want to throw their their second combination so when you actually don't punch back at all yes they get a little out over their skis and now they have to explain why they were so aggressive and whatever you come at someone that strongly like you're an idiot or you're stupid well you're going to start to feel some shame as you're explaining and realizing that there is no need to personalize it yeah and I'm standing there smiling right and wow that's funny you know and they're like oh wait okay something's not happening you're right they're out over their skis they've lost their balance right and so in aikido seriously my goal as the person who's receiving the attack is to actually help them find their balance again because the attack they'll they'll lose their balance because I'm not pushing back so the redirection comes when I say something like wow you think we can't afford it what if we could afford it or what can we do to possibly afford it do we need to raise some money right so now I'm looking for solutions right I'm focused on a solution and that's when we turn from an adversary into a partner the way they talk about in getting to yes getting past no I know some of the books you've talked about already on some of your podcasts they're wonderful books and and it's all about changing your adversary into a partner for problem solving and it only takes me the skilled one to do it they don't have to know I just have to keep asking well how are we going to do it so I'm redirecting them now toward looking at a possible solution you think we can't afford it tell me more about that so I might ask some more questions I might not go right to a solution because I want them to feel fully heard and I also if I'm really solution oriented I want to know everything that might stop this if I really want to do the project let's say their their viewpoint is still helpful in the solution here and I can't stress that enough because even we we know we're right we have a resolution we've already made the decision internally we are still operating with blind spots and talking it through with a teammate there's a reason we have collaborative meetings companies are not run by just one person making all the decisions because they're going to bring that other perspective that could help solidify that solution get their buy-in as you say yes and I love the the idea of getting to what we call neutral body language shoulder to shoulder side by side the problem is out in front of you we're not adversarial it actually changes your physiology you're not getting that stress response of being in each other's faces and imagine if now the focus is on the resolution and you're asking questions that lead them to focusing on the solution wow feels totally different and diffused from that situation of well no you're wrong and no let me show you how I'm right that's right we've stopped focusing on each other you're not the problem anymore we've one person you know has rearranged things both physically sometimes as you're saying Johnny and AJ and also we have shifted our attention from each other to solving the problem so here's the problem what are we going to do about it it's not you it's not your idea that's bad it's like here's the problem that we want to solve so I just keep redirecting towards that and I've I've used this now and in 13 years of managing the company we've had countless arguments on the team countless conflict it happens even when you you love each other and and your friends and it the tone and the feel is just so different even if in that situation where you have a presentation or something in front of you you swing around to their side and show them the computer screen and now we're both looking at the computer screen and show me how I'm wrong show me how there's another option here and that diversion of attention the deflection of all that stress and physiological response really works wonders and we've had clients after the program use it we've used it in resolutions mediations move to the same side of the table so that we're not sitting across from each other our physicians who come through the program we say swing your stool over to the patient put the chart in front of you so you're both looking at the chart here's the results let's work on this together yes and reinforcing that team mentality diffuses it and we can get to the resolution yes now this is great when we of course are in conflict with someone but we also know as we grow in our career that we are going to have to manage conflict amongst two people yeah maybe even two children in our household yeah and I think that as another layer that a lot of people especially those of us who are conflict diverse struggle with what are the different strategies from when we're actually in conflict with someone or now we're trying to manage conflict between two people what's the nuance there okay so if I'm the manager and I've got two people who are upset with each other and I need them both okay they're both valuable to the company I don't want to fire them I and yet they're causing you know difficulty their team is not productive because everybody's staying away from them you know when two people are in conflict they're not just stressing each other out they're stressing the entire environment out what you do is basically same skills okay it's that but you're doing it now as a coach you you shift from being a manager to a coach if you're willing to do it and in the book I talked that that's what the book's really about this model of how a manager can work with their with two employees like this and what I suggest is not to get them in a room together right away because that's that's probably because we're thinking I don't have time I got to get this over with this is causing problems let's get them in a room and just talk it out usually what happens if especially if the conflict has been going on for a while there's a lot of pent up emotion and the emotion just escalates and everybody just wants to you know fight each other and you're sitting there watching things just get worse what I recommend is that the manager work with each person separately at first for several sessions if necessary they can just be an hour each and you play the role of listening to the person that that they need you know the person that they're in conflict with can't listen right now if they could they would have already and they can't and so you they this each each party party a and party b each one needs to be heard and needs to diffuse what's going on they have a story that has brought them into this conflict you as the manager coach can sit with each person and listen to their story to the point where now they feel heard and what's important as you're the manager the skills you bring to this are are several I'll mention some of the biggies okay one is that I have to as the manager coach it really helps if I have an attitude that something good can come out of this that not only can this conflict be resolved but with some skill these two really important employees can gain some social and social and emotional skills and intelligence and become perhaps leaders for the rest of their team because if they get good at this they'll start to spread it around so I have to believe that some good can come out of this and that there's an opportunity here on lots of levels another really important skill that I bring is non-judgment it helps it's almost a necessity that I walk into this conflict not having a belief that one or the other party a or party b is right and needs to win I can't be on one or the other party side because the non-judgment is what's is what allows the person to tell their story and to feel heard and then I I acknowledge I help the people reframe conflict from this is some you're not a bad person you just need skills I'll never forget the time I was doing this someone brought me in from the outside and I was doing with two employees in a big insurance company and when it was over and they were getting along well and they were able to talk to each other and get along really well in workplace I remember our last session one of the parties said you know I I had no idea that this was just a set of skills I could learn that I'm not a bad person because I had conflict and she was so serious that this is just a set of skills anybody can learn this I said yeah so non-judgment reframing seeing conflict as an opportunity seeing the positive the possibilities here that are inherent and and just listening asking useful open questions so then you work with each party and pretty soon they're starting to feel more centered and more calm because they have told you and they feel heard and and and not only that but you're actually aligning with each party right I know it sounds weird and you tell them you know what I'm doing and I say you know I'm I see your side I'm on your side and I'm also on their side because I see both sides and then pretty soon they go oh she sees their side maybe I could see their side right right so empathy starts to get built and they haven't even talked to each other yet so that when you do finally bring the parties together there's a chance that they can now talk about this stuff and and plus you have a greater understanding as the manager yeah and I think the important component of that listening is the validating of their emotions that go along with this because in conflict there's always going to be the facts the details and then there's the emotions tied to it and unfortunately some of the emotions might have nothing to do with this conflict it could have to do with the conflict at home or as I said the traffic on the way to work but if those emotions are not diffused then we can actually get to a resolution so validating the emotions I could see how that's frustrating I understand it's difficult when there's a lack of communication those simple statements right there allow the other person to feel heard emotionally so that they don't come in supercharged emotional when you do bring both parties together yes well emotions are such a difficult thing a lot of times we don't understand why we feel it in a certain way but we feel it or it's it's skewing how we're viewing what's going on and and and those emotions can be tied as you mentioned to the traffic or now what happens when you get them in the room together you try it as best you can and you realize that the conflict that we're discussing here is actually not the conflict this has been going on for a while there's clear resentment built and this is just one of a string of conflicts that haven't been resolved right great question and ideally I mean if you've done your job you know this before you get them in the room right because you've asked enough questions as you realize that this is just one in a string and this goes way back and so you decide how to bring them together knowing that one piece I have left out that's important is that you're not only listening to their stories in these sessions you're actually helping them learn skills you're teaching them skills skills like listening skills like curiosity like being interested in and you're and you're role playing with them like you do in your boot camps you're role playing and you're bringing up examples of things that have caused them conflict in the workplace and you say now what would you say if this happened and you go back and forth and until they feel comfortable or not and then you learn why they're not and why they won't do it you might do some personality style indicators to find out maybe there's a style clash that's going on that they can talk about when they get together one of them is an accommodator the other one isn't and so they're they're just clashing styles and and that might help them to work through it but if the emotions get high right so in also in the set of skills you're teaching them how to like we just said AJ search for solutions so you're redirecting you're you're sitting back at this point as much as you can and beginning to ask them questions about how they can now start to talk together and in the book there's a list of questions that that will help the person the manager if emotions get high you just you you ask them to let's take a time out right and we take a break and you begin to ask questions about what just happened here so it's not about what's happening it's the awareness around what's happening and Johnny when you mentioned emotions it's also not just the emotion right it's my attitude toward the emotion if I think I'm a bad person because I just got angry that's that's not going to help right if I'm able to say to myself wow I'm really angry right now how I wonder what's going on maybe I need to talk about it with somebody that's a really different response to my anger so I in a sense you play Ikea with yourself right you blend with your own emotions it's like you're getting attacked from the inside and you go wow I'm upset what's going on I need to take a look at this is this from what happened to me when I was five or is this something that's happening now and so the manager can do that too the manager can say let's take a step back let's just do a time out let's go to the water or something and find out what's going on here and maybe separate them and work separately right so reset things there now are there some markers as a manager that can allow us to see conflict under the surface because we do know in these situations especially as managers who are overseeing a lot of teammates and processes that you know typically by the time the conflict really gets to us it can be a big problem so are there ways that we can see some signs or signals to nip it in the bud ahead of time and no win to step in to resolve something yes I think there are and I think they have to do with you know concrete facts like projects not getting done on time and you can't figure out the reason for it it may be because two people have you know can't communicate anymore like they're not talking to each other and they're doing workarounds and so things aren't getting done so if projects aren't getting done on time if people are saying coming to you instead of talking to each other if you're finding that you're having too many conversations with someone and saying well why don't you just talk to Jenny about it and that I can't talk to Jenny suddenly you know there's a problem right so it can be really concrete things just like that right so performance indicators side conversations yes and and probably the energy and the group meetings together noticing how people communicate and interact with each other and do they change their personality around someone like you've noticed them as typically happy but when so and so sits in the room next to them like Johnny they get all stern and frustrated yes yes that's a really good indicator and or if someone's not speaking at meetings if suddenly you know someone who's usually fairly talkative is not saying a word um I'd be curious about that and if someone is new to a leadership position and they're sensing these signals is there situations where they are clear to resolve the conflict or work on it and others where they are not or do you feel that being proactive in all situations is helpful when you notice these signals well right that's a great question because stepping up I feel like is is always a concern or frustration like but am I going to step on someone's toes is it something that you know my I should bring to my manager instead uh if you're the manager and you're trying to decide should I step in that's what you're asking right well of course you know unless you're running the company there's always going to be a layer of management above you and for a lot of our audience who are now starting their career in management you know they can be feeling that but they're like well maybe I don't have the tools yet I listen to this podcast I haven't had training um what is the line for them to step in and be assertive in the line to go up a level in management a lot of the line has to do with purpose and in one of the words I use probably the most if you did one of those word clouds in the book is purpose what is my purpose here if I'm just trying to get this done and solve it and get it over with it's probably not I I probably shouldn't I couldn't I shouldn't enter I shouldn't be assertive with this because uh I don't have uh I don't have the right attitude for it if I basically like both people and I can't I think they're both excellent workers and they're both pretty good people by themselves and they've just gotten into some uh toxic relationship or not even toxic just into some sort of a tangle right um then and I think I might be able to help them by separating them and just talking to each one and listening to their story and I think I can be non-judgmental and I think I can help them see that by resolving this conflict uh they would be happier people and happier workers and maybe even leaders in the company if I think I can do that at least I could start right and if I get to the point where I don't have the skills then I'll stop and I'll get the skills or I'll talk to someone like you or my own coach you know I'll get my own coach and start working with it my own coach but if I have a if I have a feeling that I'd like to try this and I have a good attitude toward it and I I think I might be able to help why not right so being proactive you don't have to be perfect at this being proactive is okay unless you're just trying to get it done or you have a feeling like some of the um some of the the ideas or attitudes that are not conducive to helping people are if I have the attitude that why are they being so hurtful toward each other or why don't they just get over it or what's wrong with these people these are not helpful attitudes right so negative judgments about the participants I would also assume trying to impress people so doing it for for personal gain instead of actually the purpose being to resolve the conflict yes now outside of getting a job in a bar or looking for your own conflict and lighting things on fire like Johnny over here do you have any tips for our audience to practice these skills as they go about their daily lives I've you've talked about them so much already and I know you do this a lot in your boot camp but uh you know in in Aikido we talk about centering and um practicing centering in a in a fairly consistent way in different ways that that's always the foundation and that's how I manage me so that I can manage whatever comes at me so that's the first place I would start build start building a foundation of centering and I'll give some examples here uh one of my other teachers Wendy Palmer who's written a lot of books and is also an Aikidoist uh talks about three different kinds of practice one is a committed practice so I meditate every day or I pray every day or I uh practice Aikido or I do yoga or I do something for the purpose of re-centering myself at the beginning of the day and maybe at the end of the day that's a committed practice and so when things come up during the day right I'm more likely to be able to get back to center because I have this nice foundation that I built quiet sitting I call it it could just be quiet sitting uh a ritual practice that's the second category a ritual is I put my seatbelt on and I center myself before I pull out of the driveway all right great idea I come to a red light I find myself oh my god why is that light red or I'm stuck in rush rush hour traffic that could be a ritual for centering hey I can't do anything about it I can only change me so I'm just going to sit here and breathe and wait till the light changes or wait till the traffic starts to move these are my car is my like practice laboratory I'll tell you you know I'm always like triggered by people tailgating me or driving too slow or not giving their certain turn signal these are great opportunities to create rituals don't move to LA then don't what don't move to LA no yeah yeah I live in a small town in New Hampshire no worries there okay um but uh another ritual I have is when the phone my phone you know does it sound whatever it might be rings let's say uh instead of picking it right up I just you know or the text thing comes instead of going right to it right I just center myself first and then I look to see who it is big difference right because there are people who will text you or you know ring you or email you that you don't even want to ever hear from again sometimes right and so if you're centered when you go to that email whatever you're more likely to go wow okay now what am I going to do and more likely to have a measured response so these are rituals you can create for yourself if you I know you talked to about separating you know having boundaries around work and home a nice ritual is when I get home after you know like I've just been on the road for two days when I when I touch that door knob walking into my house I just think breathe center smile that's all it takes it takes less than a second and I walk in the door I'm a different person same thing with going to work you know I like that see Johnny when I'm not responding to your text I'm centering myself you're centering now you know well it's it's just so easy to get consumed with so many different things I I know personally that for my meals that I have throughout the day or any some other things that I may be doing I make sure I stop everything else like do I really need to be on Facebook as I'm having lunch like can I like that and just because it's easy doesn't mean I should be doing it yes and and and I want to taste my food I want to enjoy this moment and so I've been trying to make it those habits of I'm going to eat I'm going to sit here and and that's and maybe I'll put some music on but that's that's it I don't need to be distracted with a million other things go to Facebook check email no have your lunch enjoy it here here I multitasking is way overrated what's really hard to do one thing at a time and we're terrible at it and it's it's a myth anyway but uh it's okay so much a couple of other suggestions when in doubt ask a question no if you're stuck if you feel uncentered if you're like a deer in headlights and something just came at you breathe center and ask a question that you don't know the answer to and see what happens and then just sit there and continue to center while the other person talks um and know that you have more power than you think in conflict you really do and it's not the power to control the other person it's the power over you you have ultimate total control here in your mind body and spirit and when you know that and you will forget it I forget it all the time well I'm glad to hear that Amy's listening and she's like wait a second AJ teaches conflict I'm not seeing these I know I know centering practices so when you catch yourself you should go wow thank you very much to yourself thank you so much for letting me catch that that moment when I almost lost it so uh uh center yourself breathe ask a question know that you have more power than you think and that when you change everything changes when you change like you said I I think we were this was before we got on tape but you know if I walk into this room with you guys and I'm in kind of a limp place or my I have a frowny face or whatever we're going to have a very different interview than if I walk in going hey how's it going guys you know um the same thing if I walk into a conversation that I think might be difficult and I'm thinking to myself oh this is going to be so hard I can't believe it I don't even believe that I'm going to do this I know nothing's good it's going to happen here I nothing good's going to happen I'll tell you that right off but if I walk in going well it could be a challenge but I'm excited because I know I'm going to learn something no matter what happens even if I get full of myself I'm going to learn something right then you're going to learn something and what could be better than that thank you so much for joining us wonderful tips I'm definitely going to be centering myself after this interview I think everyone needs to learn how to send it themselves especially in LA traffic where can our listeners find your fantastic book and more about what you do thank you thank you very much it I love the book I started reading it again myself the other day I was like hey this is pretty good yeah that's how you yeah it's true right um it's called turn enemies into allies the art of peace in the workplace and you can find it on amazon or wherever books are sold my website is probably a wonderful resource I hope because I've created what I hope is a teaching website that people can get on there and download stuff and read my blog which I've been writing for uh decades and there's just you can search it uh there's an article on there called the checklist for difficult conversations that people find all the time and say is really useful so it's judyringer.com judyringer.com thank you so much for coming in studio it was a pleasure total pleasure thank you