 daughter of was so so sensitive to the to the blue light coming off the screen that she was calling her horrible life. I know. Okay, we're getting official here. 704 and we'll call the meeting to order. I see no one's public here. So we have no public comments. Approval of minutes. Last meeting. I just made one. Literally, it's that distracted. I think that last time that I copied it, I was like, is it again? Yeah. Okay. So do I have approval for the minutes as a method? I moved to approve the minutes as a method and I said, all the paperwork, I'm okay with this or approve reports and information and see back in a way. Well, as you can see, we're now open for hours. So we have changed our hours slightly from what they used to be. We are during Monday through Thursday. Now, nine to eight instead of 10 to nine, because we had done five informal studies and found that we had just about as many staff members as patrons from page to nine. But we have we set a line at the door in the morning. People wanted to get in for so folks are slowly figuring it out. So it's it's funny because the first few days like nobody came at nine. And then and then now we're seeing people 93945 at least they're trying to figure out that we're open. So 95 on Friday and Saturday and then one to five on Sunday. And those will now be the same hours all year long. They used to change between labor and memorial day. Super confusing for everyone. So that was something that was commented on in our first feasibility study. Please keep the hours the same and keep Sunday off here. So Sunday's been quiet the first few Sundays. So Saturday has been nuts. Evening is still relatively quiet, but that people people will kind of get in the group of what the new hours are. Are you moving up any programming and also like to early? That is the plan when we're back to more in person programming for kids. Yeah, the plan is that it's more conducive to doing story times in the morning. So we will probably be able to do like a 930 and a 1030 before we only had one story. Yeah, I'm in the morning and then in the afternoon, it's not going to work. So yeah, so yes, we are hoping to move programming up earlier. We have a pretty sizable segment of the population that likes you. You know, many people like to get out early. So they are. Yeah, I was going to wait for three hours. We usually finally have a bunch of seniors and a bunch of kids that are waiting. So yeah, so that was the emphasis for that. And because of those open hours or leading toward those open hours, we have kept some temp positions open non-benefitive positions open for quite a while when we were open on our hours. Now we've hired three pages to shellers. Let's see. Two library technicians and one in adult services and one in children. But those are all temp. No, what if it's most of them are anywhere between 10 and 15 hours? So we need them. So that's we have a few of them in place so far training and a few more spillage training. We do have one more service point, which is our routine area, which we would like to staff in the afternoon evenings and weekends, because that's when the teams are there. And so far, we don't we don't have that do that. So people just are running back and forth until the term. So for those FTEs and the budget for the staff, they're in our temp budget. We have it's not a they aren't positions that we go ahead that we have to request from city council. Those are temp. So though they're considered, you know, summer seasonal, some are just temp villains, no better bits, and has to be under 20 hours. So if we have a separate temp budget than than our regular sample budget, for example, we always have more times in the summer with children is when it's not COVID because of summer reading programs, which take, which normally have thousands of kids and take some extra and power handle all of them. I don't know why I put security down here. Those curious issue, I can think of at the moment is that our security system is somewhat problematic. And part of it is that we've worn the keypad out. And it's so archived that it's no longer available. So our tech had to go searching on eBay to try and find something that Oh, no, work. It's the same kind of thing. We ended up with the blinds. A couple years ago, where all the blinds folks that came out, the company was out of business, they all came out and said, no, you need $10,000 worth of new clients. And we ordered three remote controls on eBay. And Jason spliced them together. So we're getting to that point where we do have some systems that are too old six. So hopefully that'll fix because our little way button that we use when we leave the library is stuff like glue. So our learn has gone off at interesting times because the button will stick and then unstick. So they're working on it now. Masking orders, it's been today was a really good day. It's been a tough couple weeks with the masking money. We've had some folks that have chosen to argue about it kind of before we even open our mouths. And you can't tell me what to do. And it's not my name. So I think the staff's done a really good job of talking to people about it and letting them know that you really need to have this mask on and that we would like to stay open. So we would not like an outbreak to happen at the library. So they put your mask on and keep it on. And it's more a question of walking past people in the minute you walk past, there's the mask down below. So it's a constant reminder. We have Jake, our security person and Sherry, who's our evening person. And then I make rounds of the building twice in the morning and twice in the afternoon. We're only just to go up and remind folks. Like as my funniest interaction was, I wish you would just stop reminding me about this. So it is mostly an issue in tight spaces like our temp computer lab that we have set up before we're able to do a lab. We wanted to go because it is a relatively small space. And we have a couple people who have claimed a medical exception, which of course we cannot question who are in here. And we don't know whether they have a medical condition or not. And so it's been kind of a little bit of a struggle between the mask and the non mask. But I'm curious, what percentage of patrons are doing that? You know, today it was almost none. Downstairs and children, it's almost none. When I walk, when I do my rounds upstairs, more often than not is two or three up there. Sometimes it's as many as eight to 10. They don't have a mask on, but today we're going to get one. So I'm hoping that that's a sign that we're going in the right direction about now. So good. So has anyone been begging for stuff? Um, one person, I don't know if I would say who is threatening me, who's sure angry, you know, yelling at the face and trying to get, trying to go behind the desk. So, so, you know, we've had a few, but most of the time, we just, you know, we need to finish your business and you have to leave, you won't work off. And, you know, to the one down the list, you're going to have to leave now because you're screwing up. So, so, um, that is often, it's not as bad as we thought it would be compared to what I've heard from some other libraries. So, but then we have other folks that, that, you know, want us to be more strict and saying, you know, why don't you have what you have restrictions in the children's department or you're asking for vaccine cards for children as the children can be vaccinated, etc. So it's kind of a mix of people is the city looking at doing a mandate, a vaccine mandate? You know, I don't think so necessarily, but I think everybody's going to wait on a kind of a holding pattern right now, seeing whether or not that, that regulation that applies to businesses, if you have over a hundred, you know, if you're like a hundred people, etc. Rather than there's a mask, there's a vaccine mandate, don't know if it applies to municipalities, I don't think that's as slighted or whether or not it will apply to staff, they'll be staffed, though not public. And that would be potentially a vaccine mandate or require weekly testing, but that's not on our horizon anymore. I don't think there's been any written There's nothing on there. It's come from the Fed. Yeah. They're all. Yeah, I've heard some chatter about it, but there's nothing concrete at all. I'll be surprised when it comes. If there isn't something like this, that if you take a federal dollar, you'll comply with it. And that's what the discussion has been, whether in most cities and counties, they take federal dollars. I was the president. Yeah, that's his big step. And that would be, you know, obviously with forced people necessarily to have the vaccine, if they're really anti-vaccine, but they would have to be highly tested. So I have noticed that today's news were a bunch of multiple testing sites reopening that had closed. So I think the Heart of Walmart site is still open and that's seven days a week. So it drives the road walk up. But I think I think I just saw something about the fairground site opening up again. So anyway, do you feel like Jake and Sherry are have the right skill set to help me with that? Yes, I do. Oh, good. Oh, yeah. I mean, they're both really good. They know the patrons and we went over, you know, I sent kind of mini scripts out to staff and we've been doing a lot of coaching just saying, you know, here's how you approach this. If someone says this, here's what you should say, etc. So we try and help folks out. And then, you know, obviously that's for the frontline staff, but it might not give them any hassle and they're supposed to immediately contact Jake, me or a supervisor. I just don't want to put our frontline staff with that. So they've been an effect and it's just a premiere and a half now. I know it's really a huge ask. So I said, today was a good day. We're not close yet, but it's been a good day. I think we're going to hear from health insurers. Yeah, they say there's going to be a differential cost unvaccinated. You're going to pay X. I think that's probably true. It's already happened. Delta is the thing you know. United. Yeah, United. It was United. Yeah. Yeah. $200 more for a month. Yeah. If you don't have a vaccine, it's a lot to be an ICU. Yeah. Yeah, that's a lot. We're also facing some other weird COVID things and we're still waiting for the liner that's supposed to go in the drain system in the keyhole and in the children's department that was on back order to finish off that space. They have a drain system that they put in there that didn't use to drain. We used to get the ice dam and a snow buildup, which is a problem. So, so waiting on that, there's still some work to be done at the back staff entrance and the loading dock in the back, but that can't be done yet. We have some, you know, old rusty chains of inspectors that are not up to code, but that can't be done yet because we don't have the materials or they're still in back order. So whether they'll be done in the fall or the spring remains to be seen because there's concrete that has to be a part of that, et cetera. It's, you know, at some point it's not going to stay hot like this. So, and also for libraries, a big deal is the new paper shortage. So we're not talking toilet paper. This is a nationwide and beyond paper shortage and it's affecting everything from people trying to get their wedding invitations to books, definitely, definitely copy paper, things like that. They've already gone up considerably in price. So we were giving out X amount of free copies to folks who came in and were giving half the amount we were before. Publishing, it's a big deal. I'm drinking this at school, right? We've had paper until December. Oh, so it's every day, is there? Yeah, we've actually had official letters from our book hold seller and advising us to get our orders and now or we won't get the best seller of stuff. Normally publishing goes in cycles and normally there's a pretty big fall cycle leading up to holidays, et cetera, of a lot of us selling authors and now they said that the amounts of the bidding are limited. So prices are going up and Will that affect digital material? Yeah. Do you think that'll apply? No, I mean, or if it does, it may, but it'll be a trickle down thing. And actually, you know, some of the that's what some of the digital publishers are saying, hey, you know, not affected by paper come by us. So we had already, you know, until COVID never goes away. We had already shifted a much larger percentage of our purchases over the last year and a half, two digital materials and are still juggling what the demand is between crime and digital, but definitely more demand for digital than there was before. And a lot of folks that didn't used to indulge in ebooks and e audio became fans during COVID and their their liking for those digital materials has increased, definitely, because a lot of folks that told us anecdotally, they just said, hey, I don't listen to ebooks or e audio books until COVID and now I love them. So but a lot of folks don't like the print books and we're still ordering print books. It's just our prices are definitely going to go out. As far as the print materials go, though, even with this, even though we put a request in the budget for some to kickstart pre-processing, we have done some small orders with a vendor so far. To see how that looks, what that means is for fiction so far. What that means is that we are not physically putting on each little stamp sticker, bar code, RFID tag and my aurora plastic cover. I was very surprised when I first got to this library that all of that was floating up my hand because I hadn't seen it that by hand in a really long time because the vendors do it very expensively. It's actually more expensive for us to pay staff and buy materials to do those things and to have the vendors do it. So that's what we're looking into. And yes, it will free up some staff time once we get into that. No, we don't have staff and we don't have a ton of staff to spare. So it's good that they'll free up staff time. We're seeing folks that do that technical services are the only people that work in our computer lab right now. So so we're a little short on you haven't been back to full hours for a while and we forgot how many staff we were. So so paper shortage was not that a good thing for us. That's what I read now. So that was what I had. Mostly to report for the budget. Any questions on that for the budget? OK, let's jump into the budget. OK, well, I don't have a huge update until unfortunately, because we're early in the community council meeting is until tomorrow. So it's basically all the same. But if we talk about before, I guess you know, there are many things that made it through in this in the budget, both ongoing and one time expenses that I was very pleased with and the things that I was misplaced with were the three positions that are not going through. So for us at this point, I know it's tough because the city can't just keep adding and adding and adding positions. But for us, it's just difficult to function. Our act is not one of the originally and all of yours. And when I look at how long I can get to the info, I think it's I don't think it's going to get all really better places. 2013. And so we're really helpful. But when I look at I have the whole charge, but when I look at the amount of programs that we have, you have the technology that we know handle and some of the other things that have been added. It's just tough to keep up. So yeah, I have a whole I have for the five together for the consultant. Charts that are actually it's actually 11 years of all those stats compared with us level and older. We kind of we're kind of half discounting 2020 because 2020. The stats are not very meaningful from 2020. But just looking at the other stats and and another stat that was interesting to me in comparison and comparing those things rather is that our our FTE of professional librarians is extremely low compared to other libraries. And that's because that's where we've made that's where we've made cost savings by hiring folks to be library assistance and library technicians in lieu of hiring master's degree librarians because they're working. So we have 11 and 11 and Boulder has 26, I think. So and level and even has 14 or 15 professional degree librarians. So that's one of those, you know, that's one of those debates are many things that that folks with experience can do that that don't require an analyst degree. But you also over time, I think you you kind of degrade your service by not having that level of professionalism. But absolutely. Yeah. How does the city go into inflation? You get a really good question. I mean, you know, I mean, definitely I mean, definitely the city looks at I think they do a good job of looking at salaries and and looking at market and how the market changes and keeping up with with the market value as far as our other categories. We usually have to keep asking. We don't get any inflationary adjustment. So that's why I have to ask every year or two for an increase in the amount of money that we pay to our consortium, because we do most of our databases through the consortium and those go up every year by at least four or five percent. So just logically speaking, you'll end up with less. Yes, absolutely. Because everything on anything, I mean, now we're going to pay for supplies. All those things have gone up by a lot. Like I said, our databases go up for five percent at least every year. The descriptions go up, which even the subscription went not like magazine subscriptions. They went down temporarily when the demand for magazines kind of weaned and still has. But now they've gone back up. So just from a conceptual standpoint, I think you are coming into next year about the same level you finished up this year. Yeah. So in reality, you're taking a hit because you'll end up being able to provide less. It's not too bad. The same door. Exactly. This year it won't be the next year is what it will really hit, not coming for the 2023 budget, because we were able to use some COVID bargaining with some of our vendors because they were struggling. So some of our database vendors, et cetera, gave us pretty good discounts during COVID and still earned in for this next year. But I don't think it'll happen after that. You know, they're going to bar it themselves out of business. So we were able to get percentages off many of the things like the database is really one of our most expensive things that we've purchased. But I don't think that that's going to continue. So helps in this. Does the city have projection on inflation? Yeah. Oh, we haven't we haven't talked about inflation as a factor, other than in the terms of the salary package, right, and being at one at market plus one percent. For me, that's the question is a little different. That's that's all the general question. But I but I'm just curious. Do you do you have the number right now of total general fund dollars dedicated to the library in two thousand twenty two. Two thousand twenty two, it's right around four million. So it has gone up, but mostly salary. So, you know, with the conversation we've had around this table is percentage of general fund. What percentage of general fund is the library that I need to look at the general fund continues to increase. In fact, this conversation leads to several questions like in two thousand thirteen, what was the total general fund with city's budget outside of capital improvement? Yeah. And what percentage of that was the library? What is it in two thousand twenty two? How many how many city employees were there in two thousand thirteen? How many will there be in two thousand twenty two? Because we're adding thirty five positions for thirty three per capita. How much for they per capita? Well, that's an excellent question, because your population is not exactly what our consultants, what Annie is is gathering right now. And she's been in touch with San Francisco and his and several other folks in the budget office getting those just exactly what you're talking about for the last ten years. So so I don't have all of it. Are you going to talk more about that report? Which report? Annie? Yeah. So can I still talk about the budget? Uh huh. But I wanted to talk about your catalog system and reference sort of the thing that you want to use with the absolute fund. Oh, that's not a that's a sorter. Sort of. How do you think that affected your budget? The fact that the city believes it's coming from the Emson Fund? How do you think it affected our budget? Yeah. The Mosier Fund? The Mosier Fund. I don't really think it did. I mean what I look at though is that it's been requested at least twice before I got here. And it's a big ticket item. You get the request by nowhere. Also, I don't know at this point because I haven't bought one in years. I don't have any idea of what the actual cost is going to be. So we had to go, we had to issue an RFP because it's not just the machine. It's whatever modifications you have to make. You have to have an induction window outside the insides you're cutting into walls. You're doing things. So we issued an RFP still out there for vendors because we need to have the folks come in, do their mandatory meeting, walk through, do their past drawings, figure out how much the entire project would cost before I could even ask for something. I don't have any idea in this building how much it would cost. So I couldn't go and say, okay, I think ballparky this would cost this much and then I hate to low ball it. So therefore, you were reluctant to put it in the budget because you didn't have it in the budget? Well, number one, I didn't think it had a snowball chance of passing. Number two, I have no idea how much to ask for. I don't want to go in and there was a request a year or two before I got here which was way lower than a sorter would actually cost even then. I guarantee it's probably more just because of the inflation than it is. But at that point, that would not have covered what we needed to do in that year's dollars. So the last thing I wanted to do was go in and say, okay, I need $150,000 for the sorter and finance to 50. So that's where it's coming from. And it's been rejected multiple times. Do you see this as a multi-year project? No, it doesn't take that long actually. I mean, there's a little bit of construction putting in those induction points but then the sorter itself takes a few days. They're not that good. They're big and they're kind of constructed in compartments now. So they're modular. There used to be one giant straight piece of equipment and it was a little bit more difficult to get, bring in and set up another modular and they're very easy to assemble. So the, I think that the modification of the space will take longer than the machine itself. So we're going to discuss the budget and the fund later. It's just, while we're under budget, I have this little thing that I can't shake, is that the city takes the assumption that the funding for this is going to come from the Mosher or the Emsen funds and they'll cut your budget. That's the thing that is twisted around. I don't think our budget is cut. I just think it's not. It hasn't grown. It hasn't grown. It hasn't grown. It hasn't grown with the general funds growth. And I guess where my reluctance came from is that some of the things that we asked for that were a very small amount relative to that were questioned pretty heavily. So if I have a $10,000 expense that's really questioned what is a $300,000 expense? What's the reality of it? The reality is we did it sort of 10 years ago and then we have this fund sitting there. Well as a taxpayer I kind of like the city being diligent in terms of managing its dollars. But at the same time they can't be junior. They can't penalize you for being assertive in terms of managing the libraries and things. And I don't forget that's very... How much does a new fire truck cost? How much does a new fire truck cost? I know. I bet it's more than one of these machines. I bet it is. Didn't we just buy a whole ton of them? And you compare them to the city's safety... Because we are keeping up with the population... I was going to say have you ever looked at safety budgets compared to library budgets? But you know that's changing. But this is where I think the board can help the library where you would be at a disadvantage helping the library. Because you have to function within the city. Hierarchy and you know you're all part of the team and all that. We're here to advise on that and whether we think that's fair or not. From a city's... He's saying we can apply pressure you can. So... We're different. Different, right? Yeah. So let us know how we can help this. I guess I'm to the point with this. Like I said, where we really needed to say ten years ago we are very low on staff and this is going to create a lot of staff time staff time that we need to do other things. So it really is financially sound. Yeah. It's a financial... Well, I've seen it. I've had it in our libraries and that's what happens. Right. So I mean we have these giant... We've got the pick list. We have this list of hundreds and hundreds of things to pull for people's pulls every day, for example, and we never get it done because it's just so many pages and similar to my last library and the library before and after we got a sorter every day it was done before. Because it just freed up so much other time. We're checking things in. For the people who are doing that be able to do the other things that you need though because that seems like a different skill set. And then... Okay. I see your point because when we were having budget meetings I would ask if the money that I had asked for for pre-processing, you know, that freed up some folks who were putting my mark covers on folks that they could be my computer left coordinator that we didn't know. Yeah. But in this case we are really slow on pulling those pulls shelving the materials we've had it. We have to keep doing all the calls for shelving where everybody from neon down shelves because we're inundated. Yes, that's the same skill set. So it would fall between this and we did the same job in the first place. Okay. But it almost seems like the city doesn't use a capital budgeting assuming this is capital. A capital budgeting exercise similar to what you see in business project industry. I mean it doesn't seem like they take all that they have in front of them they rank it all they look at, you know, what's going to return the most for the dollar and that's how they evaluate budget projects. Doesn't seem like That is how it works. There's a fairly sophisticated scoring system. The problem is a sorter compared to a fire truck. Is that, yeah. Or other public safety health and safety stuff, right? Or infrastructure. Flood mitigation. Water treatment. Those things all score high. That's how the library got to where it is. That's the problem. And that happens in libraries in every county because you're going to obviously you need flood mitigation, you need safety equipment, et cetera. And this is very nice to have to move libraries forward but it's not going to compete with that. For whatever it's worth I'm going to weigh in here. I was waiting for my when I come up on the agenda but I would just repeat some of this conversation. So I did submit we were asked months ago, right, for one time explorations I asked you this was on the list. So I raised the question last Tuesday night. We got a cap, just so you know, we got a capital budget three weeks ago. We had 4.43 in the afternoon for the meeting that started at 5. 78 million dollars in expense. We had 17 minutes to look at it before we got into a meeting. So, you know, it's like, what do you do with that? So there were things for me that were priorities to look for. Sure. This was one of them. It's not there. So it just happened to be when we were asked for one time expenditures in May that we were our priorities. This was on the list. So it's like, well, why would we be asked? It's just to show up on the list. I don't care what the scoring system is. So I have, I didn't send an email to Harold and Dale and the crew, General Goldman. And the top of my list, well, I've got things on the list. The other budget considerations was the automated handler. And I've got some narrative here. I estimate it cost 250,000, but that's what you're giving to me back in May. But that was on top of my head. I have no idea. That's all I had was that number. What I have said in this, just so you know, and I've acknowledged that there was an agreement to take out the motion. But I said for several reasons, I think using the motion fund for this purchase is not a great idea. And after our one time funding priorities in May, I assumed we were being asked about priorities to be funded with general fund or some of the resources. Not the motion fund. What I am going to say, I'll back off if you want me to back off. Maybe I'll say to you, I'll back to the board. I'll back up if you want me to. But my message will be, if you want a proposal around which it will be easy to rally the community to create a library district, stay this course on the budgeting process. Under fund the motion fund. Buy this out of the motion fund. And if that's what you want, it's an easy case to make that the city will never fund the library at the level it's supposed to. Even when we have the money to do it and when we've been asked for our one time priorities. I added, by the way, the shelving of the providers and the other things that you gave me. Those are on my list. And honestly, my position is going to be don't ask me what my one time priorities are and then ignore me. You do that at your peril, honestly. That's the message to the crew. I'm not happy about it, obviously. It's an offense to me to be asked and then to be ignored. And then to fund it this way. And I realize we're on camera. No really good chance to watch this. We are going to put this on TV. I know. I'll stand down if you don't want that kind of conversation in full tomorrow night. But I'm prepared tomorrow night to make the point that what we're doing with this budget to the degree that anybody would want to make the case that if that recommendation comes from the consultant that ought to be the one that you carry to the this group carries to the council. This budgeting cycle is going to have to make that case. So he's asking us. Well, you know, I'll just jump in. From my perspective, I always see motion fund as a rainy day fund. The city was absent adequate resources to fund the library that that would be a place that you could go to keep things going, buy things when they couldn't afford to buy. That's not the situation I'm hearing this year. I'm hearing that there's more money than was expected that the city was looking for opportunities. And this one just happened to be ignored or fell through the cracks. You know, I don't want to be negative, but you know, it just didn't bubble up. But you used to realize that we had to submit our budget documents before we knew that this pot of money was there. But even so, you probably under ask, right? Not even knowing that money was there. And even so, we're not talking about what you were asking. The other guys get a relook. Why wouldn't you get a relook? Well, there's going to be a relook tomorrow night. Do you think you should do that? I'm comfortable with that. Are you comfortable with that? It doesn't matter. So let's hear what we think. I want to hear what you think. Yes, perfect. I mean, this has been since I've been on this board, which has been a few years. This has been, you know, a conversation. Yeah. Is that a yes? Yeah, it seems like it's been in issues before you even got here. Sounds like a unanimous, yeah, go for it. I've tried to be sensitive to the answer. I'm in the middle. She specifically said she's not taking a position. We're the ones taking this position. And we are taking that position. And we are an advisory board. We think that that's the best advice we can give the city based on what we have seen happen in terms of funding for the library over a long period of time. Well, what I said earlier in the conversation is that it was my understanding and it may be my misunderstanding that whatever understanding Nancy had with the budgeting process and her colleagues, that this board did not assume that this was going to be funded out of motion. That's correct. In my mind, you talk about rainy day. I don't even talk about rainy day. It seems to me that you ought to use the motion fund to pursue things that are real visionary, that are kind of way beyond what would be really special. Not what's essential to have a functioning library. I agree with you on one hand, but I'm a realist and I've had libraries for a long time. We don't even have a program budget. I spent a lot of decades on your side of this conversation. Yeah, you did. I'm on that side of your conversation today. So, I get to pursue it a little differently. But I don't want to misrepresent this group. That was part of my concern when I said to Harold, what? The sort of motion fund, and then he said, well, you know, we all agreed to it. That was a great question. I didn't think you all did it. So, you had mentioned that it might be advantageous if some of us come tomorrow night. You're still with that belief. Absolutely. And how long do you think this debate is going to go on? Most of the meeting is budget. Yeah, it's all budget. There are other topics. I don't know that they're... I mean, do they do library first? I'd have to go back. There is a sequence. I'd have to go back and look at our materials to tell you where in the conversation. Well, it doesn't matter to me. I have no social life. I can spend... We have family. What do you do now? Can you extend virtually still? No. Here's how I think it's going to unfold. When we got the capital approval budget and there was really no... There was no chance to really ask questions that night. That was my recollection. We were told the next meeting we would have to use three questions. So the next meeting there was an afternoon. I made the point. We got this thing with no time to review it. We were told then we'd get to the yes questions tonight. Now we don't get... What I said was we get to the point where somebody says to me it's too late. I said, I'm going to be really, really worried. That's not going to accept that because it responds. We get far enough into this budget because that's what happens. Gee, we should have fixed this back then. So I'm on record saying that is not going to work. That's just not going to wash this time around. So we were told then last week we could ask questions. And we were told give us your questions in writing. I don't know who else did that. They've got a number of them. And I expect us to get... I want my questions answered before we get into any other budget recent questions. Otherwise, the same damn things we have. Getting it too late. People are going to be exhausted or let's pick this up another time. That's just the way it goes. I know what I want to know tomorrow night and I want answers to my questions before I have another budget discussion. So if we show up, what does that... How does that work? Well, I would suggest that during public invite to be heard you use your three minutes to say either all of you or some of you or certainly you as the board chair to say we understand that tonight begins discussions or presentations discussions about those parts of the budget would include the library whether it comes up tonight or not. My questions will come up. And we want you to know that we are... We all know that our library has been under resource based on the work of a consultant hired by the city to conduct a feasibility study. We know as a percentage if it was a million dollars a year just to get to average and we're under resource by 25% as a general number or 20% at least. And so we're going to be keen to observe and to learn as an advisory board how much of that 20% deficit we will make up in this budgeting cycle and beyond. Because I don't think we're making up any of it. I think we're getting farther. Is this where we start talking about our district and city council? Yeah. I will make this sound like that. Only because we'll get to that with feasibility study part 2. And that is part of what the consultant has been hired to do is to say a district is an option a hybrid is an option to study how these options could best fund the library. And it's going to happen when that's going to be finished in the next few months. So that doesn't work for us. So here's why. Look at this. They are going whole hog. They are wrapping around long monotony. They've been signing this for 5 years. So if we don't move now we are going to lose a huge potential revenue stream for the city's library to Boulder. Their number is 4 times 5 times. What your number is 20 million. That's what their district is going to create and they're going to suck a whole bunch of that so we need to attack now. We can't wait 2 or 3 months for this report. We have to start talking about it. We have to start now because we have to be on balance next year. Wouldn't that give the city less incentive to give us money in this budget cycle if they're like well they're just going to become a library or crack a library or district anyway. That would be okay. A year of pain. It's okay if we double our budget next year. New building and all the things like building the library. Isn't it... We want to do what is best and in my opinion for the feasibility study course that seems like a very logical answer. Can I say one thing about the feasibility study? That thing was supposed to be done before the pandemic. It was, but it's not. And so therefore if we... if this will on development oh no, you can do it again. That's what next slide was. They got to vote it down first time. The point that I'll make tomorrow night unless you'd rather not is not to short circuit the feasibility study would be to make the point that if the expectation is or if there's an expectation that we won't proceed or there isn't an appetite for proceeding on the city staff this budgeting cycle is going to is a big or this decision is a big mistake. If you don't want to see that kind of a proposal come forward then what people who care about the library are going to want to see that we are making up the deficit and this is not how you make up the deficit. This sends the exact opposite message. It says a clear message that we move forward fast on this other stuff. Well, I'm just saying that they need to hear that I've said it they need to hear it tomorrow night publicly. I don't mind talking about the library but my concern is that it'll get in the way of this budget the people will start fixating on that if you won't get the money. So maybe it's a timing issue. The folks that are already upset and happy about a library district before or even then for you will say something. Now if we want to do something a couple weeks later fine but my personal don't want to have it get a certain money in the water or the property. But it's a hit's point. I think it's not going to come off. Right. It's got to be clear with his lead. Right. One decision is going to influence the other. Right. Whoever in the community how are the people in the community think about this, they think about it. Some are going to be automatic. Well I think it's important for decision makers in the city understand this is not a decision made in isolation. There's a keen interest on the part of people who care about the library to see deficits made up or it's a clear message that it won't be through the traditional budgeting process. There's not the will or the appetite to do that. The only alternative that is is to create a district. But I'd like to do the best job I could to make the case in this budgeting cycle to do more. The specter of the potential library district which should be a reason to pay attention. But part of the case for me is for my recommendations and then you ignore them don't ask, I mean that sets up a different kind of communication with the city staff that I just assume we not get into. I would rather not happen that way but they need to hear that message as well. I've also seen this work in another way where the city is very worked looking at a district did, the city did kick in this much more money and then everyone said what we started doing the rest of the, you know, getting people together and enthusiastic about dedicating funding said, well you just got a bunch of money. And what we got was like 100,000 bucks, or 200,000 bucks when we needed 2 million. So that is a little bit of a concern for me too is that kicking in and saying look, we gave you $300,000 an hour done when we're short buying ideas. That's exactly it. The division is a library for the 21st century probably the 22nd century but that doesn't really get it done. Of course not. That doesn't put you on the road to creating it. I know that and you know that but when that's the public they say you just got a bunch of money last year, what more do you want? I'm just saying that that happens. Well this is, you can kill anything with an incremental improvement. We used to do it all the time in corporations, right? Do you want to kill a project? Let's give it a little bit more. Let's give it the time you did and then people say look what you got. So yeah, that's not what we need here. We need to double our budget to give the city a better result. But that's not going to happen this year. Not going to say. But it could with the district next year. So, anyway I don't want to use this as a like a bludgeon or anything with your budget. I just want to do what's right for the library and for the city and for the library services that it deserves. Because we're not the city we were in 2013. We're looking at close to that city. Because that's when I moved back. And libraries are not and some of them they are either. I mean, so I think his approach is the right approach. I think that we need to do that. But I also think that we need to do a couple weeks from now and I can move into this. Stuff from the library that I met and we'll talk about that later. Well, I think it's good. I do think it's good that this particular money is tied to one thing. That you've asked for ten years ago. And so it's not like we're giving you $300,000 to do with what you want. It's for one item that you've been asked for over five. That's easier argument to say then. Or about we need more money. Period. They still said go to the three-year position. Okay. And two of them are for time non-benefit and they're like this much. I mean, the amount of pay for a quarter would fund those positions for six, eight years. Well, that's to those numbers. The staffing numbers are going to be really not for tomorrow night. But before we finish this budget, I want to know the percentage of library employees, what percentage you represented in 2013. What percentage you represented in 2022 compared to the overall number of employees in what you represented in 2020. My guess is it's going to be much smaller. Well, and it's not even, it is, but it's not even the size. It's the diversity. One of the positions we asked for is a bilingual outreach coordinator. That wasn't a thing in 2013. We did a computer lab coordinator because our needs have only grown in that area where something more sophisticated than just dropping it from there. But if you came to the numbers, you'll never get that diversity. No, you won't. So one way to make the case is to say if we had just kept up the number of people employed and assigned to the library for 2013, you would have, if this would be more FPE, diversify it in ways that make sense in 2022. Yeah. Well, I will commit to come tomorrow night for whatever it's worth. And maybe I can touch base with you on some numbers. That's where I go as well. Do you want help drafting a secret or if you're feeling extra grace? Move by the spirit kind of thing. You know, he's a passionate guy. He talks a lot. So. I'll take whatever help I can get but I think I need to make sure that that helps. And if you guys have time and want to come along, I mean that I have a way to say meeting as well so I've got to skip tomorrow. Yeah, I can't. But I'm good. Maybe we'll be there and you have a great, great, great. I have another meeting. If my kids are vaccinated, I can bring them. This was January. The message is you're on your own, boss. If I could zoom in, I would. I said on my own before. Okay, well, all right. So anything more on the budget before we move on? Okay, how about the friends of the library before? They're meeting Wednesday. Now we're meeting before they are. Okay, so we'll skip that one. We're going to have a same sheet though. We're going to have a same sheet and we do not. But we will next. We'll cover through the end of this year. For those that are attending, as long as you know that it's on print, we'll work on some of your things next year. Next year. Okay. Then I think we've covered everything up the whole business and everybody's starting to hear what's going on. We have a meeting on Friday with Annie. She's been crunching lots of numbers. She's been helping her assemble. The meeting will be this Friday. This Friday. So I don't have a ton of info for you. She has finalized questions for stakeholder interviews. We've given her a whole list of stakeholders. So she'll be doing a lot of 20 to 30 minute calls or online meetings with stakeholders just to update. I think that the initial consultants missed a few folks and also some things have happened since then. So some of the questions talked about some of the same things that the first consultant did, the role of the community in the libraries, for instance, challenges in the library, the facilities definitely changes in the next 10 to 20 years. So that's the next step with her. Like I said, she's been profiling data, the stakeholder interviews come next, and then it's going to be the larger group that meets, which includes some of you folks on the board and friends and other groups. So is that a September stakeholder interview? She will start interviewing as soon as we have our meeting Friday. She will be interviewing folks next week. So we could be asked to interview that week. Okay. I have both of you on her list. Good. You may want to give her a heads up to as we crank up back on her. Where are we at with the feasibility study? So, I mean, it may come all the way around. There's a little debate about that. It also took months for them to interact more correctly. I know you were. We balanced that out. She expected it to start months earlier but she did not have it on her. She did not have it on her. Anyway, that's where we are. We'll start the party. Well, maybe you can send out an update. I can send an update. Remember and I'll reply all but you can send comments to me. Give us a heads up. Any questions on the feasibility study? I have a lot of questions. Are you going to buy it? I'm sorry. It's like rock star plays and makes the end of it also. Okay. Mosher, Dempston, Fun, Paulus and Babies. I put it together. I got one comment. Hopefully that was nice. One of you to just change it from quarterly to semi-annually. You would ask for more frequent. I exchanged it to quarterly. Mark said two frequent. It's semi-annually. I think if you're doing the whole update on it, semi-annually is fine but I don't think that concludes the library from making your request. This is just the semi-annual review. My take on it was I thought it should be more of a savings account than a check. They should be bigger items to the councilman's point they should be visionary and it should be special. It should be a property laundry. It shouldn't interfere with a friend, shouldn't interfere with the chief. What have you done with the policy that talks about it's purpose? So I didn't really put a whole bunch of purpose. I said the review will be the library strategic plan and then the request list in relation to that strategic plan which I expected two years after. It's up to you forever. There was no strategic plan. So the reason I asked the question wasn't any, I did not put any I didn't want to put a situation on the library per se because I don't know what they thought but I didn't think they could. Well let's hear that. It seemed to me that you'd want in that policy statement or in the policy statement is there a purpose of the motion fund in the Emsen fund? Unfortunately in the funds themselves descriptions say dedicated for library purposes. And so then you ought to be clear what those purposes would be. It seems to me. Because if we had that policy and there was a real clear statement that this is not to supplement what's necessary. I did write conditionally fund request and that should represent items that the library would not be able to get via friends of the library support nor a annual budget. Should I be more strident in that? Pretty things like that's a generic statement that fits what we want. So in your comments to me it wouldn't be a bad idea to say we have been working on a policy statement. Specifically to guide how we think and what we do with the motion fund. This is what we believe should be the purpose of the motion fund. Which is what you're doing is inconsistent. They put it in there. The motion fund is identified as the funding source for this sort of fund. I told them that we didn't have the specifications for how we would spend the fund and that the only thing that I knew at that point was that here's the fund, here's how much is in here, that the library wanted the appropriate funds we had to make a library request of the board and then the board had to request it. I might make the comment tomorrow night or some other night. This had fallen off the books. It didn't even show it. Well that's what I did. I didn't even fight it when I got here. Until we raised the question what about that fund? Which fund would that be? And then so for, I have to say this is my to tell Harold, to do this without consulting with this group whatever conversation I have with you is one thing but to not... I don't want to end up I like my job. Thank you. This is about... Are you going to request this? These little requests aren't going through. What do you think about having more money available when we turn in our budget? Which means at that point to request a 300,000 dollar item when 10,000 dollar item is a good question is not something I thought would ever work for. Sure. So at that point though I mean Harold talked to me about he said he had this motion of funds that he considered and I said yes I would consider it but we have not made or the library has not made a request of the board at this point. Right now we have an RFP out to see how much this project costs we don't know. So that's where we're at. My message to Harold is it's really bad politics for the part of the city manager to assume the city can spend the motion fund without any consultation with the group that you convene and ask for advice. And no matter what I've said they're going to turn around and say I asked them I asked them to take out a portion of my money. You didn't ask me. As a liaison. Because I offered this is not about you. And you're because there would be more people It was not well achieved that I gave you a wishlist for that. I'm going to step that wishlist down somebody's Did you ask her for a wishlist? Yes. Did you tell them that? Yes. And it was not well received? I told them that. I pushed her for it. And I told them that. And it was not well received from your boss. I would ask you to name names except where I stand. Nancy. I want to let you know that the double doors on the inside and close use the can side that we're looking at. That's the one that opens the other windows. Okay. One question since getting away from the larger discussion who's named us for a huge challenge. Should we say it in the name? Okay. We're talking about what the review of the board will include in the third paragraph. We say this board shall include strategic you know total amount strategic plan and all that. Should we change that to May? May include. It's probably better. Give us a little more room. You could take what Katie read and seamlessly connect that with and what's visionary or necessary operations to cover those kinds of aspirational the language he has but to connect with what we're using. I think we're close. What I'd like to do is sending an idea Katie based on this conversation for a second reading and then put it up for a vote. It's good. It's a live document. We're editing right now. I can send it back around to you. We've heard some different thoughts. Maybe we want to interject and maybe not. Let's take another shot at it and I mean never. This isn't something that's burning to get done but it's something that we built to be done so I think now based on everything I'm hearing it has greater emphasis than when we first started out so send it around for a second reading if you have anything we'll throw it in there and we can put it up for a vote that's some reason. Thanks Katie for doing that. I just want to sort her. She knows that this is going to cost her. This has been something that we needed for a long time. In relation to the small staff this is the exact kind of equipment we need and the last thing I want is to say forget it, we're not even going to entertain looking at the brochure fund we're going to ask for the budget it's going to get refused and then Lord knows how long it's going to be. Then the board will react to that. Then we have to go through this RFP process is not a short one. We've got to go through the thing multiple times. You don't even know a passport so that you get your custom proposals people come in and tell you how much the thing costs to give you a proposal. Normally if you were doing this you would then bring the proposal back to the board and say this is how much it costs would you entertain going to city council and asking for this much to be taken from the brochure fund in order to purchase this if they said yes and you go to council meeting then you buy a sorter. Well I could see putting a flood number in the budget like 250,000 or whatever I don't know what that is well here we are here we are so I could see putting a flood number in the budget and then if it's 320,000 or whatever the board then would pick up above the flood number but you know we would obviously like the flood number to be plus and I have seen this council go back and add funding to things multiple times so it's not a maybe they could take a wish on one part of the project. Can I say one thing, doctor, in the language around like visionary projects I love that idea but I also if you don't think in the library district I don't want to tie Nancy's hands that's not quite an average option to not be able to get what she needs because it's not visionary to have a sorter. That's why I like the way you go there but I do think in spirit we should try to move that direction I hope my only point was to be clear the expectation is the motion from the incident is not used for what would be operational operations and it's not to supplant the kind of funding that you should expect for operations. But I would add in I felt the same way since I got here with my friends about how libraries have program budgets and they are friends that bought us our computer management system to manage our computer they have funded all of our programs they have bought software all kinds of things that have supplanted what should have been in the library budget so this is not a new thing. But if we had not asked the friends for some of those things it's one of the reasons we're being appeasable aren't you? I'm just saying though there's a particular understanding of this fund before we know what's going to happen with the feasibility study and where your eventual funding change are going to come from. We're saying let's wrap this piece up but is that wise to do before we know the long-term process is going to be for funding libraries? Well as long as we keep it reasonably generic wrapping it up to lock it down he's not wrong but at the same time it's like money that was buried somewhere and nobody is controlling that money right now nobody's saying what should be done with it library purposes that's it this is the library purposes group so we should step up and we should say we're going to figure out how this money gets spent and if she says I really need this order now and there is no other way to get it in the short term I don't see a problem with it but this is something the city should take out and spend it on. Well I agree with that my intent of the policy was to create some responsibility around the management of the money the money was just sitting there it had a likelihood of being squandered there was no responsibility set up for the board I think it was incumbent upon us to try and put some framework around that whether this board or some future board at least has some guidelines on how to manage that money well it goes into our bylaws but it is more we can change it now it's in our bylaws the absence of this is what got us into this discussion had that policy had that policy been adopted and people were aware of it and it might have been less than inclination to assume that we would use the motion to fund something that is essential for this library that policy were already adopted and it can change if you get a library district that's what you do all the consigns that we are trying to address in this policy kind of bubbled up through this budget because the interest in trying to use it as a piggy bank to supplement the general funders budget the intent is to board itself actually it supplants the Chippewa okay should we okay on that one send it around again moving on nothing on the little fruit libraries we have two passability I'll be really good at passing for that one okay N-A-R one of them is a little free library at the hope shelter, the overnight shelter they seem quite interested and the other one is an opposite type thing it's a brand new coffee shop in town it's looking for a bookshelf or patrons going on main they seem like the religious community outreach they did quite a bit in front of the library so far your read is starting to get more involved with little fruit libraries okay great I'm going to move on then Boulder library district update I didn't see much of you I'm going to get everything that's out there so prudence from a friend of the library we are going to have a meeting on the 27th of this month which will be the first beginnings of a citizen committee to look into this she's going to bring a couple people I'm going to bring a couple people and we are probably going to Boulder's work so we're probably going to copy some of what Boulder did in terms of reaching out to the community saying you guys anybody interested in joining this committee things like that anybody here interested in being involved with that Boulder committee has a good website oh yeah I'm going to deep into it prudence is right by the way she's awesome we're going to have a lot this is going to be not only an important project it's going to be a fun project I believe we did I'm just saying I don't want to be able to meet well why don't I unless it's Zoom that might very well be sometimes if it's a planning period or something the rate we're going right now we're headed back towards Zoom why don't I get with you to coordinate with some of you so basically I will get to her the exact time and place and then she'll send it out to you guys and anybody here who's interested welcome to join so I do want to limit to a certain number of people I don't know how many yet but you know it can't be it's got to be somewhere between 10 and 15 probably can you touch with me if you need to if you want to meet the person in the conference room let me know and we have the LPM space as well so we have lots of places which may be better because you can probably do more there than necessarily the fifth one is that I want fifth Warren he would be the guy that we should contact I know, I thought he was dead because there's a baseball club named after him already but apparently he is the puppeteer so anyway my friend knows him and has his contact info I don't know how we would approach him necessarily but if we want a nine one that's what I'm talking about we spend a lot of time with him he's not we got to be big time we already have a memorial public space and you're alive it says Bruce W. Fifth Warren he's an attorney I'd like to if you'd like me to if you'd like me to if you'd like me to if you'd like me to if you'd like me to if you'd like me to either the morning or the evening or the morning my guess is it'll be a day but that would be great the name isn't a thing I got to 27 it's a little bit I mean it would be our normal we'd be that's coming Monday but this was next week so I will get I will get all of them for her I think we talked about it well you set it up how you need to set it up but for me I would prefer either the morning or the evening we have not set a time on that would you all like me to I can send you the list that Annie has of stakeholders that she's wanting to interview you can reply directly to me remember I don't reply all but if there are some that you see that you would like her to interview as well and you may get some ideas on the list too awesome then so is this really a combination of the library different update and your board activities and what conclusions do these abilities have depends on the feasibility I can tell you that well I don't think there will be anything the feasibility study is going to say that the library needs an independent source of funding because the library is going to be low on all of those level of service parameters that we talked about before on space per capita on collection per capita on programming, on technology on FTE on all those things it's going to be at least a hybrid it's going to be like a hybrid I would be shocked if that were not the case but I just don't think that I mean I think y'all think I can ask for a $300,000 piece of equipment which I can skeptical about but I don't think I can say can you throw in another couple million dollars on top of that so I don't think that it will interact in moving any direction I just believe that right now the fact that Boulder is doing this for real for sure is going to negate much of the negative that we've seen especially when folks know that they're including NYWA and some other well they're including everything right up to our board right up to the city board all along it I don't think people will be as shocked about like Youngborough but I think NYWA things that are in the St. Marine Valley school district I think that that will be impactful because usually library districts go along the school district border more often than not we might even get the school district so who have possible so that's I think now is the time I don't think we should wait and wait for the study to be done if the city wants that I don't know how fast it will be done so I think you should do what you need to do yeah we need to get it started we need to get it on the ballot next year if Boulder is doing it and we need to make it clear that this needs to be fair NYWA is using long logs are you using both about equally when we look to do work yeah then maybe we should be looking at something that works and realize that NYWA wants a branch because they're not going to they haven't been paying for library service they're getting it free so they're not going to say oh allow me to pay money and not want something in return but on the other hand that site of Longmont leading toward NYWA would be a great spot here in our branch they're pretty far away so yeah I totally agree so that's kind of the thinking here let's just keep moving I'm certainly not going to stop there's a reason I asked to be at a library board this is one of those reasons a lot of that surprises me gee what a shock are there local close by hybrid districts the closest thing to a hybrid that I know of anywhere nearby would be Cooner River in Portland but I think there are less hybrid than they started out because when they first separated from the city and became a district they contracted back for a lot of stuff for HR facilities maintenance for a lot of stuff I don't think they contract back for nearly as many things as they did I think they've had a good relationship with the city of Fort Collins I think it's been relatively smooth but I don't think they're as dependent on that relationship as they were that's just what I've heard though and I can talk to David Slivkin as the director there we will definitely do that once this is done he's just about to retire so it would be good to get him quick life he might be more available so what's his name? David I can give you his contact tips Slivkin but he would really be a good one to talk to you about that we've also been talking to so I've been doing these city council interviews with all of the city council people and one of the people I've been working with is a fellow named Richard Lyons from Lyons Gas turn's out he's an expert in library districts he did the Lyons Library District he hears he's done a bunch of stuff he's retired and I did try to suck it into this but didn't succeed at this time I think I have to get his wife involved but you still know Kim but at the same time he has other people in his firm so we have a local firm that knows a lot about other districts and districts that's a really good thing so just so you know we're already starting to have these conversations okay so to recap this friends of the library maybe next Monday it will be next Monday I just have to get a time to talk to you about the formation of a citizen committee and a formation of a library foundation that will work alongside friends of the library she's interested in talking about those as M.I. so let's see the big thing and don't discount talking to Eric Pazamba through that because my last foundation in Ballingham was one of three the city's foundation and we got about $6 million in requests in the short time so we have and we have two choices here Kelly and the law might want to they're both very good so just possibly if you don't want to if you don't want to do all of the stuff yourself like they gave us a great deal we will run the foundation that's what community foundations do so we want that I mean favorite libraries have their own foundations the foundation director and all that stuff now we want a place for people to put their access money they would like to do to their library we'll have it be offered to them as an option and to get people to think about it you want to make sure such requests are in place that's right how many starters can I name find a place to put his name no I would not buy a store it would have to be something much more interesting that was a couple then well I know this is a couple but I prefer no names okay so we're good on the library district being good on the board follow up so far on the book Nancy tell us what you know I don't know as much as I can but I have a meeting tomorrow they couldn't give it to me before then with the City Clerk because I gave them what I had and they at first said no no ours are right and then supposedly once they dug into it they found a reason for the discrepancies so we are meeting tomorrow in person so I will get back to you ASAP because I told it said that there's no reason that one should be five years and one should be three years and I understand about finishing terms and so that's the first time they could give me an appointment I told it specifically that you did so and it was free so I have to meet with them tomorrow maybe you should hold on to that five years what do you think they may meet in a year or so that bleeds into letter F because they're the same ones that change the meeting date things they change it in some spots and they're still wrong on the main library page so that will also be that's also coming tomorrow because I'm going to be in their office okay fair enough comments from the Board want anything I hope that we can from the domestic market we'll be involved with this effort but you can keep us up to date oh yeah how do you do that in a way that we're keeping what's sunshine on us I have to figure that out because it's going to have to be you're not going to be able to do it as an official you can't I mean you can put them on the mail I'm sure we're in trouble with Slack you can put it on Slack yeah you can't do that but we could have a public website you can put it on a public website we did that in where was I we had a website and I guess they're engaged it's not a bad thing we use that to gather questions for the mayor and city council we're putting on we got some interesting there's puppets and that's often where you want to get the basic advice from a local attorney that's in they really laid it out for us in Tarn County and said here is what you can do you are the basics of what you can do and here's what you absolutely can do and that was useful so if this is a board driven activity it really can't be a board driven activity the board can support it but depending on which state you're into this is why we need to help a Colorado person the board can support it we also don't well I don't know if that's true it may not be true well we have no fiduciary responsibility so we aren't actually we're not really a board we're an advisory council so we can honestly we can do anything we want really we can pretty much I mean we have sunshine laws we have to do all those things but there's nothing limiting what being one of us can do once things get further as far as library staff go we can educate but not advocate and there are certain things like library staff would be if you're perfectly fine for us to hand out your flyers that say you know you can even go as far as to say if this was our budget if we were to have this amount of money here are some of the things we can do can't say for sure it's called next life Loma did this and LP Loma Power Communication did all of these things and they work closely with my group which is called Friends of Fiber Fiber it's good for you and they didn't like that they liked that one but we really helped push that group and they work closely with us to help distribute our stuff and so there's a model already that the city has done before so on our meeting minutes we couldn't create something that says like local activities involving the Longmont Library and for those I mean you could post anything there but you could post this sort of thing there and that would be like a common you probably could thing that you could get the information you wouldn't necessarily fall into sticky issues would you do something like that I don't know I don't think so so you just have to be careful because there are people who are going to be the vote no people no matter what you are going to be looking for whatever mistakes you made the library and the press and country have been through lots of times we wouldn't necessarily endorse it the communicating activities involving I think you could say that this library advocacy group is meeting at this time it's not going to be related to this board it's going to be something that we do outside this board will be involved some people on it will be involved but I'm involved in many things this is one of many things I do and that's true of all of you so there shouldn't be any conflicts there should not be an issue so yes the answer is absolute this is information anything else talk to them see you tomorrow with that 831 we're adjourned next week is October 18th they are thank you right they are going up we'll see you very soon