 Hello everybody! If it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly. Joining me as always is my own clear debt settler. We just talked about that right before the show. It's Tom. What's up, buddy? Hello friends. I'm here. I'm here to clear some grudges. Also joining us, somebody who I think fits the Coradron Overlord mindset very well. I feel you've got a spiritual connection to him, Paul. Paul with Radio Free Hammer Hall. He also loves math. He also loves numbers, and he also loves KO. What's going on, buddy? What's up, nerds? This is actually a momentous show. I don't know if you are aware of how momentous this is. Does this put you in the lead for most number of appearances? Not just the lead. I've already been in the lead. Okay. This is magical number 10. Wow, number 10! The 10th time Paul's been on the show. All right. That's great. Well, you're a good guest, Paul. My thank you. Absolutely. You're like, I got to go back and figure out like who was Johnny Carson's favorite guest. You're that. You're that. You're that person. So yeah, Paul's available. I Am available and can fill airtime. It's it's an amazing skill that I have. You have a magical combination of just the things we're looking for. Yes. Absolutely. I don't know if you've ever heard this. P plus content. It's great. There you go. That's right. I don't know if you ever heard the Saint Motel song My Type, but the line is you're just my type. You've got a pulse and you are breathing. So, you know. There you go. You might as well go here for tonight. It's great. All right. So at any rate, yes, we're gonna be talking about Coradron overlords. We're gonna be revisiting the KO book several months on tonight. But first, we begin with the news. What scant news there is? What do we got, Tom? Got a little bit. A little bit. And I just messed with my windows, of course. So rumor engine, let's talk about this. I have cracked the code on this. Let me get my book real quick. Oh boy. Okay. Wow. Tom, Tom is ready to be breaking stuff out. He didn't have props ready. But apparently the, the, the, so there's a horrible angle, horrible angle, Tom. You can't hear me. Sorry. I can't hear you at all. I was telling you that you should really make sure your shirt is tucked into your pants at any rate. I should not show my butt. Fortunately, I think our little heads down at the bottom of the screen blocked it. That was the only saving grace. Nice. Hey, I'm just, I'm wanting to put on a show for our audience. Appreciate it. So we have rumor engine and it should be up. It is. What do you all think it is? A 40K thing. Really? I think it is. Yeah. Like a, like a 40K one off, like a, like a necromunda thing. Like necromunda has all sorts of weird down in the under hives. There's all sorts of weird like mutants and things like that. Right. So having a dude with a crab claw or something like that would be completely normal. So there you go. Nice. That's my. So Paul, can I cut in first and maybe say a thing that's going to immediately contradict Tom? Cause I love contradicting Tom. Of course, we all do. Yeah. It is not Nurgle. Okay. No, no, no, I agree. All right. Yeah. Um, this is more of like a lobster claw. And Nurgle stuff tends to be like when they go crustacean, it tends to be more crab like. Okay. All right. So Tom, would you like to do your big reveal now? What is it? I'm going to read this. Okay. This is from an AOS resource. And this is a description. The Wraith fleet of the Vampire Corsair Varkos, Vara, Varactyr has haunted the coast and seized the realm of fire for thousands of years. Launching inland raids to spread the touch of death at the will of Great Nagash. The spectral sails of the blood captain's flagship, the Galleon Death's Whisper, writhe with screaming faces, the tortured souls of those the vampire has slaughtered. As insane as he is veracious, Varactyr is drawn to the emanations of suffering and loss around the flame scar plateau. Um, this is the, it's a death army. Okay. And it's going to be the, it's going to be vampire pirates. All right. Mixed with like sea creatures. So we're just going to, we're going to, we're going to borrow from the whole, they were just basically going to take the entire pirates of the Caribbean franchise. Well, all five movies. And we're just going to like shove it into one thing and then make it, but throughout it through, through vampires. Yeah. Yes. But actually it's more, um, there's more of a, uh, a history than just that. Um, and another news item I'm going to talk about here in a minute. Uh, so total, uh, war hammer to, um, total war war hammer to, uh, had an expansion. Let me see if I can find it real quick. Um, had an expansion and I don't know if it was called, it was, uh, vampire coast. It might've just been vampire coast curse of the vampire coast. Um, and it's like, and it is exactly this go crack open and it has like big ship golems. Yes. Uh, and like crab monstrosity things and all of that stuff. And so this is it's a death army. It's something that we don't have. Yep. It's in line with things that were very popular with like total war war hammer. Sure. It's, and it actually came from the firestorm season of war book. Yep. Sure. And what's so fascinating about this is that we've now gotten cities of sigma, which was all of the order stuff from here. Sure. And so it would be, it would be like, it would be a natural outworking if the race fleet, um, got a, an entire art treatment and all that. And you know, it caught the attention of some of the artists and they decided to run with it. Okay. Just like the cities of sigma are stuff from, from firestorm. Sure. Um, so there's like warrant for it. You know, there's parallel development with cities of sigma, um, and it just, it ticks all the boxes and we haven't had a death army since, uh, I don't know. Since December. Yeah. Sure. It's been forever. It's totally been forever. But I, nonetheless, despite that, I do agree that there's been a lot of people hoping for, for vampires or something of that nature. Right. So, um, so vampire leaders with some like zombified, not zombified is the wrong word probably, but like, um, crustacean-y, let's call it that. Yeah. Vampires. Undead pirates. Yes. Like, yeah. First and second pirates of the Caribbean put together. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Vampire like leaders with a bunch of undead months in, in deep sea monstrosities. And, and it, and like, can I do ring a ding ding? Sure. Absolutely. Uh, here you go. It's, uh, it with the launch, they will have a dual box within the first six months that'll pair them off against IDK. Okay. Uh, Cinderfall said vampire coast existed long before Pirate of the Caribbean. Yes. I, we all know that. I played the vampire coast expansion for more time back in the day, Cinderfall. I know buddy. Uh, the, um, I, I think though, speaking of IDK, I think that's most likely IDK. Like if I'm going to put my money on something, like, I mean, can you, can you wipe the memory of, of, of the dead? Like they know you're coming, buddy. Like the saying, uh, and, and they have a bunch of deep sea monstrosities that can send down after IDK. Sure. So this is not vampire coast, which has been said like 50 times in the comments. There's no, there's no coast because the vampire coast is a reference to lustry. A thing on a world that is destroyed. Right. But it's thematically the same thing. It's their ability to recreate that aesthetic using the same markers and the Wraith fleet in Okshi and across the mortal realms of the spread. So it sees now and they'll, they'll reuse a lot of the same concepts here is what you're saying. Right. Yes. My money would be on flying boats, like held a lot by ghosts. A lot coming through. Uh, sure. Yeah, I suppose they could have actual boats flying around. Sure. Um, if they do boats, which I can't imagine them not doing them. If they do boats, I would suspect that they'll be flying with ghosts. No, I, I've come over to your idea, Tom. I love it. Let's see it. I hope you're right. Absolutely. That sounds fantastic. Uh, I mean, it does feel like something that a lot of people have been screaming for for a long time. It gives us vampires, like new vampires. Who aren't going to look like, like, okay. Who are going to be distinctive. Who, what do these vampires look like? Cause I am going to say they're probably not going to look like classic, like super clean. Well, the vampires in Vampire Coast often looked pretty traditional old world vampire. Right. Just, I mean, yes, they had pirate type looks and that kind of, that kind of look. Here's the question. Are they going to also have the same sea creature theme? Like are they going to be Bill Nighy in pirates? Are they going to have, you know, Cthulhuoyd slash underwater creature elements as well? I don't think so, but maybe. Okay. Um, uh, I don't know. Are they going to be barnacle covered? I think some of them might be. I think some of them might be. Um, uh, and I think that, I think that we may get some of the aesthetics of why pirates, the Caribbean. So more care, like literally pirates, like more Caribbean ask. So if you're going this direction, I don't know, we'll see. Sure. They could also go for, uh, the, the fifth movie, which had, I don't remember the name of the bad guy, Javier Bardem. He was the bad guy in that one. There you go. Him where he was like half missing kind of, right? Like he was always drifting in, he was always drifting as though he was underwater. They seem to be on about modeling wind effects right now. Like all the Lumineth have things that are floating and ghosting. So they could have the vampires like literally missing chunks or something like that. You know, looking very waterlogged and, and have their hair all kind of floating out to the side and their clothes floating to the side and stuff like that. Like that. That looked in that movie. Yeah. And then their servants could be the crustacean, the latin, more solid people. Yup. And that could be then the, that, that is why they're Wraith E. Cause not cause they're actual a ghost fleet. Right. It's because they have this ghost like aspect to them. They always seem to be underwater. I think it's going to be a mix. Like I think, I think it'll be a bunch of things thrown together, not unlike what we've seen in recent releases. Okay. All right. Yeah. Paul, what do you think about this theory? Assume it's not IDK. What do you think about this theory? Would you be excited for this concept? I don't think that that's going to be a thing. Sure. But let's live in the world where it is. There's a book that has that written in it. I didn't make that up. Lots of stuff gets written in books. It never turns into models. I'm asking the following question. I have allegiance abilities. I understand. You could play right now. If it came to existable, like let's say tomorrow it's real. Okay. We're living in the world where it's real. Do you like this concept? I like pirates. All right. We're talking about dwarf sky pirates right now. Sure. So I don't know why it's not appropriate to do vampires. I agree with Emily. The leaders are going to be a sponge and a starfish. Yes, I do agree. And that's what we're going to see. Sure. I can't wait to see those boards. I mean look, vampirates with crustacean laden zombified ghoul minions. Okay. That's pretty AOS depending on how you do it. That's a wonderful combination of concepts that were around in the old world. Things that are in the video game. Something you don't completely AOS with. Right. Absolutely. But where we can make the aesthetic really crazy. I'm just saying that like I would expect that the vampires that come out of this don't end up looking like traditional Sylvainian vampires. No. I think you're going to have like trichorns and like I think it'll be like. That's your best case scenario is they look like pirates. I'm saying that's not weird enough. Maybe like I think you'll have some elements that will harken back to that. A la OBR without actually fully being that thing. Or like Lumineth. Lumineth have like elements of the aesthetics that are certainly harken back to high elves. Oh, absolutely. But they're not fully that. I mean if you take out like three of the units in the army they just look like old high elves. Sure. Many of them. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. If you get rid of the really weird you. Yeah. And I don't disagree with that. I don't disagree with that. And so what I'll say is maybe. That's the wrap ago where I think it'll definitely read pirate. Right. But I think that like it's also going to be weird. And I think that's okay. Like it wouldn't be surprised like it wouldn't surprise me if like that crab claw was on one of the vampires. Okay. Sure. Sure. Sure. Yes. That's what I'm saying. Instead of a hook hand he has a crab. Yes. That's what I'm saying. Some of them will be really out there. Yeah. Sure. Sure. Yeah. That's what it is. Like it in. Yeah. We've cracked the code folks. That's what it is. I'm going to love when this turns out just to be what I said. And you're like oh. No. That's so much less exciting. So much less exciting. Okay. We did a reveal show this week. We did. We did. It was but we didn't get we didn't get Paul's take. Yeah. Yeah. Man. What'd you think of the show? What excites you? Um, I really, really like the quote unquote gold faction concept that. It appears to be coming along with this. Like I really want those giants to be able to be taken in any army. And have them be good, interesting and have compelling reasons to take them in lists where. Like almost doesn't make sense. But it kind of does. Like I just want everybody to be able to access these giants and have them be. Yeah. I mean, one would assume that they're going to be very expensive. Big like we said on the show, four to 500 point melee bruisers, right? That's probably in like the 20 ish plus wound area. One would assume. Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah. I mean, there's lots of armies that could benefit from having a big melee bruiser, but that's always a questionable like it's almost one of those things where it's, you never know. Uh, it's what I would say it has a natural balancing effect in its extremely elite nature. Right. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm down with that. And I love the fact that this would be the first true, besides mercenaries or whatever. Right. Like, which are just existing models. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I mean, the, the mercenary kind of concept is, was our first stab at that, right? Where you have FEC that can go into any army or whatever, whatever you prefer. But this is interesting because it's actually a dedicated singular force wherein it can just take its main unit and just put it into anything. You can have, you can have giants marching with death. You can have giants marching with OBR. You can have giants marching with Dorks, as they might traditionally do. You can have giants marching right beside storm cast or the cities of Sigmar. Yeah. And you have a track and eater giant to march alongside the vampires. Sure. These, these inevitable vampires. The vampires. Yes. Or alongside IDK. Absolutely. Uh, I'm, I was a, I was a, uh, I'm, I was there. What did you think of the, uh, um, the daughters of Cain warband there? Paul, did that grab you at all? Um, I'm not that big of the, a fan of the aesthetic of daughters of Cain to begin with. Yeah. Um, and I've had, you know, traumatic experiences being on the receiving end of Hagnar. So I'm, uh, I'm, I'm, you know, a little biased, not, uh, I mean, they look cool enough, not really for me. Fair enough. Fair enough answer. Are you going to be getting giants? I assume that the rules are like, whatever, whatever they can fit in any army and they're reasonably good. You, do you want a giant? Oh, hell yeah. I want a giant. That's the right answer. You're going to be back for an 11th time, Paul. Just that easy. All right. Uh, so yeah, no, I, you know, so red wizard said, I would like the giants to be usable by all non-order factions. They're, we have, they already confirmed in the show that they're usable by any army. Any army. Any army can take ad giant. Any army can take ad giant as a, as a paid thing that's following, that's helping it out. Order, chaos, destruction, you know, death, any army. As well as these guys are obviously their own army. You can just run, you know, the sons of behemoth, right? I would, I would, it's an army. I wanted to do their allies are, uh, or if they have allies. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it could be interesting, right? What does that ally chart look like? Does it stick to, one would assume, I'll tell you what my prediction is. Yeah. Uh, my prediction is since there are destruction battle tone, their allies are going to be a pretty straightforward look of what you would imagine. Like, Ogre's war plans, that kind of thing. Yeah. Yep. And, and just that's when they're all together, that's who they're willing to hang out with. So, yeah, it makes sense. Yeah. I could almost see them being like storm cast for destruction. Like everybody can ally with them, they can ally with everybody else. Yeah. Well, they're just, they're just kind of there and amongst it, right? Yeah. They're, they're get amongst it, right? Absolutely. So, um, they obviously, many people have said, we said it a while back that they are, they do feel very much like Imperial Knights for, uh, AOS because you've got the big guy and you've got the little boy, you know, the, you've got your, your regular Imperial Knight and your little Knight Armager. Yep. That checks out. Okay. Cool. You can build a whole army out of them or you can integrate, you know, often one of them into a lot of different armies. Uh, so, yep, that all checks out. And, uh, I think that they have, when you, when you're putting one in, it feels very much like the free blade concept. All right. So in 40K, you have knights that are part of houses, but you also have knights that are just free blades. Generally, they've, they've done something in their past that has meant, meant that they got kind of booted from their house, but now they still have their, they still have their machine. And so they just sell their services to kind of the highest bidder as it were or whatever. Right. So they're a free blade, which I love the idea of. That's what these giants are. All right. Cool. What else we got Tom? Yeah. So, uh, we have a lockdown update. Uh, things from GW and things are planning on kind of maybe like, uh, going back to semi-normal, maybe in some areas. As whatever the new normal will be. Yes. Right. Right. Yeah. Who knows what that is actually going to look like. Uh, like I know for us locally, all of our game stores are doing curbside service. And so like it wouldn't surprise me if something similar was, you know, allowed by GW. Yeah. And they mentioned like that there, this is going to happen slow. This is not a tomorrow thing. This is going to happen regionally as per what local governments and people direct and, you know, as is appropriate, they're probably going to open under various restrictions. Like you mentioned, they'll do curbside or they'll be a limited number of people that can come in the building or whatever, whatever. Right. There's lots of different things they talked about as being possibilities because obviously they want to keep everybody safe. But, you know, as businesses tend to open up in locales, they're also putting their plans together. How to do that. I thought that was good to see. It was a good, it was a good thing to put out just to say, yes, we have a plan. We're going to try to, you know, try to make sure we can do this safely. So yeah, right on. I'm excited. Uh, yeah. Absolutely. Um, I'm just excited to get playing again. Sure. To actually play a game of Warhammer. I don't know, man. That's crazy. Like we've been re hearing all of this. Like, I don't know that. Well, like, uh, as I've said many times, I think many AOS players don't get in more than a couple of games a year. So now we're all just living their lifestyle. Right. Unfortunately. Uh, not what I would prefer to do. Shooting lifestyle. Now we're all forced to just like paint, and build, and hope to play a game here one day. And that's fine. There you go. Uh, the other news item I had was that, uh, for those that enjoy video games of the Warhammer, uh, type, there were two big announcements that happened this week. One was that Warhammer under worlds online launched this week officially. Um, and that's available on steam. I think it was only like 20 bucks. Um, I haven't checked it out yet, but it looked pretty sweet. It comes with like a bunch of war bands from season one and basically like they'll release all additional war bands like downloadable content. Um, and it's the full game cards, the whole deal. Like it's the full game of Warhammer under worlds translated digitally. Yeah. And I did actually talk to one of the beta testers, uh, that already has this in his hands for a while. Yeah. And yeah, even at the beta test level, he was saying, you know, there's, you know, a few like hiccups here and there, but otherwise it's a very true replication of, you know, the tabletop game just in digital form, which is exciting. Um, I love that. I hope it comes to switch. Like I don't mind playing on my laptop and playing steam, but I would love if like I could just grab my kid's switch and play. So his kids switch. Yes. I mean, sure. Sure. I mean, one of those stations is at the monitor. Son, daddy needs your toy. Go, go do something else. Give me that. Oh, well, I mean, we have two switches. So one of them is actually, steal the one from your sister. I'm taking yours. You two deal with that amongst yourselves. That's exactly right. Um, but well, my daughter normally plays it where I'm sitting. Sure. I'm into my son plays on the TV. But I'll enter one shall leave tiny child switch Thunderdome. It's, I mean, it works. Sure. And then the other one was that total war Warhammer on steam. They're having like tons of sales this last week. I think you can still pick up the game for like a third the normal cost. Um, it's only like a $60 title and I think it's 20 bucks right now. Um, and so I have total war Warhammer one in two and they have tons of expansions. Um, lots of content. So, um, yeah, for those that are wanting to get a fix, obviously it's not the same as like the table top simulator or whatever that everybody is playing, but like it, it's Warhammer ish. Um, you know, it's in world at least, um, for those that are interested in, in, in chomping at the bit to do some playing. What? Champing. Champing. I've said it before. Please. I know. I know. Mr. Neacron. Um, that's being funny for a reason. Not using the wrong word. I mean, most would say most of those players would say that you are using the wrong word. A fair point. That's the, that's the news this week. Very nice. All you can say is that this is especially bad. Yes. The other one, the, sure, there's a couple of those that get me. Uh, that one, the, uh, et cetera, where they, they put the wrong, where et cetera or something like that as opposed to et cetera. Right. Uh, and yeah, there's a couple others like that. Uh, but hey, what do I know about pronunciation? I'm terrible at it. So who cares? Uh, at any rate, let's talk about some pick of the week. Oh, another piece of news. Sorry. I just want to mention one of the thing, uh, that I wanted to shout out in the news section because I had a different pick of the week that I definitely wanted to shout out. It's kind of pick of the week-ish. So I'll, I'm going to double up and use it to transition. Uh, our, our good friends, Andy and Remmer back, old Andy and Remming can steal. They did a nice little episode last night and it was a lot of fun and great to see them back. It was good to see that, uh, Remington is in his new, new apartment and is all, uh, settled in. Uh, he had had a flood a little while back or whatever. And so that was really, uh, sucky, great dude. Let me stay with him in that apartment that flooded when I was over there, uh, in the UK a little while, a couple of years back, real nice guy. And, uh, I was, uh, happy to see them doing a show again. So you can go check that out if you want to. So now I'll use that to say that was a news transition into pick of the week. Yeah. I mean, you got anything you want to share with everybody? Yeah. I mean, I really want to shout out, uh, Mr. Mephisto and rantcast, um, because I finally like put together in my head, like, what his show format is. And I realized he's like the Joe Rogan of AOS where he just has like these, has interesting people on. You have this long meandering conversation that's kind of around a topic, but it's just really interesting to listen to. And he's really good at like asking questions and getting people to have like a really interesting conversation. So I, after kind of like getting that process in my head, I was like, oh, oh, I need to listen to all of these now. Nice. I like that. That's a good comparison. Uh, and yes, I second that. Meph does a great stuff. It's, it's a lot of, it is kept me company through many, many hours of thinking. I'll say that much for sure. I like the very long form content. I hate all of you. Okay. Because Meph was my choice this week because I'm on this show tomorrow. Oh, nice. Well, that's okay. You can, you can, you both have a good reason to shout it out. So that's fine. Go for it. So, uh, yeah, we're on it. I think Chuck, uh, Chuck is on it. We're talking about, I don't know if we're arguing about ID or about luminous or not. I don't know exactly what the show is going to be about. It's going to be exciting. It'll be fun. All right. So. I would say arguing about, uh, that was like last week or the week before. Yeah, I know. So that doesn't mean it's not going to happen again. Yeah. And now I agree. It's, it's definitely not where we're at now. So, uh, yeah, I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm going to go ahead and pick in, in addition to shouting out Andy and Rem is, uh, the is two plus tough has been working on a one player version of war cry where you can run a campaign if you're alone and you want to get some cool, uh, war cry games in, uh, where you're playing sort of against he turned it into sort of where the other models act according to an AI. So it's, there's still an enemy force. It's just acting as per an AI instructions. So you don't need an opponent. In these times, if you're, if you're ever you're stuck with, doesn't play. You should have kids. So your haircut says says your mouth says something, but your haircut says something else, Tom. Nice. Uh, the, uh, so anyways, he put up a video where he actually walks you through a tutorial of his new rules and it has links out to the rules set and everything like that. So I will link that down below. Uh, go check it out. If you're somebody who likes war cry and is sad because you haven't been able to get a game in recently, this will let you get some war bands on the table and that kind of thing. So yeah, right on. Okay. Let's talk about some hobby time. Uh, Paul, what's working on man? What's on your table? Uh, literally right now. Oh, there you go. He's working on the KO for the KO show. Nice. Nice. Nice. So what are you in the middle of like, how deep into this are you going to go? Because this started originally you were like doing this for a city of Sigma or Tempest Eye thing. And then you fell down the rabbit hole, right? Well, the rabbit hole was basically, okay, I need like 12 entrance rigors slash sky awards, right? Because I want to be able to play like a 12 pack of those guys in Tempest Eye because they're really good. Okay. Right? And I was like, okay, I also want to be able to run Thunderers in a ship. And if I'm going to have a ship, I want to be able to have an iron clad or a frigate at my disposal. And I'm going to need like at least 10 Thunderers. This is all logical so far. You literally have a full KO army though. Yeah. And at that point I was like, well screw it. I might as well just have a full KO army. It was not that much more purchases from there. So. So now I have a KO army. Nice. Nice. Whoops. Tripped fell into a KO army. I like it. I mean, it sounds like sounds like many of my projects. Sure. Absolutely. It starts as like maybe a war cry thing or just an ally thing. That's going to be the story from this week. Sure. And this makes me trip and fall into a fire slayer. Yeah. I don't know what I'm going to do with myself. Definitely. I mean, it very well might. I'll say that. If you if you're a stringy fan, it very well might. Yeah. Tie a rope to yourself, please. Don't let don't fall down that. Don't fall down the naked baby. Mohawk. Mohawk having naked baby. You can do. Hey, you can do a conversion army like Gary did where he did a bunch of mech. Mech. What are they called? Ad mech. Dwarfs. He did a good job on a good job with them. So they weren't a bunch of naked babies. Sure. I mean, you take a bunch of company and, you know, swap them. Yep. Your head swap. Love it. Swap. Very good. No, no head swap. They go. Come on. They don't have giant Beards and crazy Mohawks. What's even going on? How would you even know they were fire slayers? All right. So, Tom, what are you working on? I mean, I can see it. We can all see it. It's so big. You're holding it in frame half the time. Well, so let me tell a story. This started this week because I folks, I wanted to do a, I last week, I guess I had started it because I'd mentioned it like all it was off camera a little bit last week. The fact that this story didn't start with picture it. Sicily, 2019. Okay, go ahead. Continue. So we, right now, I did a, I was doing a war cry war band of gets with my kids. I was working on Skaven and then I was working a little bit of gets. And I was like, oh, and I had this idea of doing like this super bright like squig army at one point. And I was like, oh, let me buy like Zarbax gets, you know, like to get a couple of squigs from that and get like the war cry box, which is a really good deal, which is like, you get like 10 squig hopper or boing grots, three snufflers and a unique card for the snuffer for war cry. And so I was like, yeah, sure. I'll buy that. Sounds like a great deal. And then so I was like, let me do some test colors, like some test schemes, you know, to really like see what this goes. And that generated these, which are my, which were my mushrooms. I had picked these up a while ago. And so I just started painting crazy colors on mushrooms. And then I just, I had a lot of fun. Yeah, it's fun to do bright colors. It's fun to do bright, weird. Yeah. And so I was like, I think I want to do a whole army like this. So I may or may not have purchased a new army this week. So like, and to be clear, like I have 3,000 points of gets on my shelf. Just none of them are squigs. Mm hmm. So, you know, I needed squigs. Sure. Because they're the key to this, this, this, this thing, because they're like, going to be super bright. Like they fit the, the color pattern. Like, yeah. So that happened this week. Oh, and then so then I, the thing I did was I got my Lune shrine started painting on my Lune shrine. Sure. Sure. So like, I'm just saying, turn the mushrooms blue, turn the tips of the moon pink, you got some rock and roll, then put pink in the eyes. Some of them are going to be, yeah, I'm going to do pink in the eyes and there's a bunch of barnacles on this. Mm hmm. And I might do pink barnacles. Dark purple on the barnacles. You think dark purple on the barnacles? I think it should just be a riot of all those colors. Well, the key is, like all these mushrooms are all going to be different. They're all going to be like, yeah, yeah, what you've just seen. Like all it's, you can still carry within a palette on the mushrooms. Yes. It's going to be a Penelope, basically, of, penna, penna, I don't know. It's going to be, there we go. Of, of, it's going to be insane. It's going to be that movie that starred, uh, Wednesday, and it's going to, it's going to look, Penelope, go ahead. Yes. So you're going to look at my army and it's going to look something like this. This is one of my inspiration photos for my, for my army. Like, you're going to look at my army and it's going to literally look like a bad acid trip. I understand. Yes. No, it's, really good. Yeah. I don't, I don't say anything bad about this. None of this. Yeah. This doesn't feel bad. What about it? Like you're not, this all seems just like you're, you've literally, it's so hilarious to me, given you and your background that you've went for the acid trip, uh, army, you know, crazy bright fluorescent colors. Right. Because it's not what I've, something that I've done, right? Like it's, it's, it is really like, it is really orthogonal to my normal, uh, kind of approach. And so that, like that seemed interesting to me. Um, and it's, and I had a bunch of neon paints that I had ordered a while ago when I was looking at this, uh, Golan army last year. And, um, yeah, so I'm going to run with it. And I think it's going to be fun. I think you should have, uh, white rabbit by Jefferson airplane on like the whole time you're painting his army, just on repeat. Uh, I will look into that. There are also some playlists you can do that are about, uh, like you can do like, ayahuasca trip, uh, like synth playlists that are out there. So you might want to look into some of those. Okay. I'll definitely, I'll definitely look into is, uh, have you ever tried DMT? Sure. Yeah. Exactly. Yes. I've got lots of potential. Yeah. There's lots of good music out there that could suit this. That's what I'm saying. So yeah. No, totally. So anyways, that's what I'm working on. And it's fun and it's been a blast. And I just loved, uh, um, yeah, doing something different for an army. I don't know when to take this to any event. I'm just having fun. Sure. And I think that that's part of what, like that's what the, like that's one of the advantages of COVID is that like no matter what's happened in the hobby world, like events are just, who knows. And so like there's no event pressure. It took the pressure off. Yes. Yeah. We can literally do whatever because we're not painting for events now. Um, and I don't know if I'm going to even to ever take this to an event, but like, I already know my board. I have a very clear vision of what it is. Um, I have a printer that is a 3d printer that is printing a, uh, like a 12 inch mushroom right now. And it's, it's been printing for 60 hours and it's only 56% done. So, sure. And I'm going to, I'm going to put a bunch of those. Sure. So it'll be fine. Like I'm just, I'm having fun with it. And I think that that's the key with gets is that you just got to have fun and just like, yeah, it's one of those things you just kind of let go of control and be like, oh, let's just see what happens. Nice. So, no, I take it. Uh, no, I understand what you're saying there about with the events being unknown when they'll return. What that sort of means because I, uh, in between having, obviously I know I want to do a Giants Army. And I have, Oh, like, Oh, and this now opens the door for a giant army for me. Sure. Like before I was like, now I'm not going to mix it with any of my order armies, but goblins. I mean, I could see a giant squig burger. Sure. You know, with his pet colossal squig, like that writes itself. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You take one of the big giants, like, boom bang. I've got my, my giant here. This is the giant spruce. Obviously this, uh, the existing giant, obviously. And, so I've got him. And as you know, I've been tossing and turning over themes, uh, for the past four or five days, tossed around a lot of ideas. Finally today, it struck me. It was like a thunderbolt, uh, which was that the theme needs to be no actual theme. Like I was thinking to normal army-ish, right? For an army that ostensibly has five to seven to 10 figs, probably, you know, depending, right? And, uh, whereas instead, what I need to be thinking for there is individuals, more like man-eaters where every giant is his own specific character, person named thing with a backstory, because these things have had to live a long time, right? They're big, powerful things. There isn't much in the universe, in the mortal realms that threatens them, right? Yep. Like as they walk around through the world, especially the big mega giants that are coming, one has to imagine that there aren't really many things that scare them. Sure, like if it's a whole wall or the stuff we put in armies, right? If our chaos shows up, of course, he's going to dunk them like a foot, like a just, he's going to dunk on them, right? Yep. Um, but that's not what you encounter on your normal basis, right? Some giant just wandering alone in the wilderness, there isn't much that actually gets in, in that thing's way. It's such an apex predator, right? So they can develop these long stories, and so I thought each one's going to be its own character and stuff like that. So that's good. Now I just need to think of like 10 giant characters and themes. So I'm just playing around with that. Uh, but in the meantime, I'm painting up this guy. He is a, a space, a space marine. Uh, specifically, he has a very complicated space marine with many little individual parts because it's, uh, it's Tor Garadon. So this guy, the special character out of the, uh, imperial fists, which is ironic because I normally paint all my marines like imperial fists. But then when I got this guy, I didn't want to paint imperial fists again. I decided to paint their successor chapter, the Crimson Fists. Uh, and because I've never painted a Crimson Fist before and I really wanted to give it a shot. So I really like the color scheme. It's the sort of deep blue and they have big red fists, as one might expect. And there's a famous piece of art of the Crimson Fists on the cover of an old 40K book with, uh, like marine up top, like going like this with the big red fist. But I just, I always loved that piece of art. And so I wanted to, and this guy has the red fist actually on his right hand, like Tor Garadon keeps his power fist on his right hand. Um, you often see them on the left. And so, uh, I liked the idea of, uh, and in the picture, I was like, I don't know what to do with it. So, so there you go. Uh, so it was a cool chance to do that guy out of a piece of art. I was like, and I'm just taking forever working on him in really, really teeny, tiny, itty-bitty ways, just pouring countless hours into this guy for no reason. Like in nowhere in my mind, normally if I was doing something like this, it would be for some kind of competition. But this goes to the event thing you were talking about. I don't know that. I don't know there's going to be another event this year where I could go to a painting comp. Right? It might not be one until next year. And it might be deep into next year. Who knows? Right? Yep. And so, uh, because those painting events, like I could see tournaments happening, like small tournaments happening, before there's true painting competitions coming back. Because those big painting competitions tend to happen at multi-thousand person events. And those might be off the cards, whereas, say, an event of 30 people or 50 people or 60 people, which is what a lot of regional tournaments are, those might be able to happen sooner. Right? Yep. So we'll see. But anyways, it's just been a lot of fun. I really like the Crimson Fist color scheme. And yes, thank you. John Ashley Smith knew exactly what I was talking about. Yes, the cover of Rogue Trader. John Sivic was the artist. Awesome. Yeah, thank you, John. I couldn't remember what it was from. I just found the piece of art, and I literally couldn't remember what it was from, but I had the image saved in my inspiration folder of stuff I really loved, and wanted to, like, paint something like one day in the same way that the old Sisters of Battle cover made me eventually want to do that. So, in the same way that this girl, I'm going to, up to the wrong hand, where she at. There she is. In the same way this girl is going to get painted once they actually print again, and I can, I've ordered that model, so looking forward to that. The Sister of Battle that's on the picture behind me. Um, because they released the one for the art that's literally been beside and behind my head for months and months and months and months. My favorite piece of Sisters art. Uh, cool. All right, guys. You ready to talk about some Coradron overlords? I mean, sure, I guess. I am psyched for this, just in part because of the level of enthusiasm that Tom just had about Coradron overlords. And I am, like, on the opposite end of the spectrum. I am, like, hyped for this army. After I started, like, getting into the book, I'm, like, I'm there. I'm all in now. I'm with you. Not that high, but I've shifted. So before, when we first did the review, I would say I was at, like, a low end of a five, maybe like a 4.8, something like that, right? Now I've shifted up to, like, a 6.1 on this book. You know what I'm saying? I've drifted into the positive by a little more amount. I've come around on this. Hi, Paul. Welcome back. You knocked your camera over. Yep. Okay. There we go. Yeah, I'm doing this on my phone, and my phone is currently plugged in because the battery was low. So I'm, like, ethered at the same time, and it's not working well. Classic. That's the way, that's, hey, you're here. Okay. But you fit just perfect. Yeah, exactly. It's fine. So here's my question, Paul. I want to start with this. Paul, why are you stoked on the KO? What has brought you around? They are an army that plays, their play style is completely orthogonal to the rest of Age of Sigmar. Their list building style is completely different. They have a really different set of tools than everybody else has. And I, you know, my psychographic profile is like 80% Johnny. So I look at this book, and I am so excited to go through and unlock it. Nice. Yeah, I think what's brought me around is I think that this book, as we said originally, and I still believe, is very different. And although there is plenty of stuff that still frustrates me about the design of the book, and I still stand behind all of my book design critiques, just basic stuff like how did we not get a sidebar that explains the, or a page that explains garrisoning rules, that reprints the triumph tables, right? Just really basic stuff I feel like they fell down on in the literal layout of this book, right? Rage rising continuum. No, it's fine. I'm not going to back off any of those because they were things that were wrong, right? I mean, there's no excusing that. You referenced out to a bunch of other rules that are very complicated and have complex interactions and didn't bother to explain any of it in the place where you should have been explaining it. That's a miss, okay? But that being said, when I looked past all that and actually got into the Army and got into the individual like Barak's and especially saw how the boats performed, it's incredible. It is unlike like watching, and I'll openly admit I haven't played, I have not gotten to play a game against new KO yet. But I have gotten the chance to sit there and watch many games in tournaments of people playing KO. I actually got to call a game with KO. I got to table boss a game with KO. I sat and watched a whole game of KO. I watched like four KO full matches at KanCon, and then I've seen more since then. And what I'll say is I am so impressed by like the boats and how amazing they work, by just what the Army can do, the pressure points it can push on, and how much it does act like a... when played well and built smartly and then executed on, it's like a very, very surgical tool that can just pull apart the enemy with things that most Armies in this meta don't have tools to defend against. Yeah. And that's... I think I've come to love it's... Yes, a lot of the synergies are quite weak and almost annoying in how you have to go to put them together, but I'm not sure that that actually matters much. Right? Like what I'm saying is I think that in the end, I almost would have rather that they just made, like got rid of some of this energy and cut it down to simplicity. Okay. Maybe had just like one or two simple buffs instead of the five more complicated, like thread the needle buffs. But it doesn't matter. It ends up in the same place. The Army's not newbie friendly, but okay, whatever. Not all Armies need to be newbie friendly, right? So that's fine. But it is something I really think has a lot of potential and I think is extremely fun and rewarding to play because you do get to play a different game. That's like, you feel like you've got tools in almost every situation. Yes. What I would also say though, like what I would add to that though, is that I don't like it's... Because it's playing a different game, you're like all of your games are on a knife edge. Yeah, I agree. Always. Yes. Like there's no games where you'll walk into and go, I have this. Well, that's too strong of a statement. Everybody has games that sometimes, every list has games that sometimes they walk into and they go, yeah, I'm just going to wreck this, right? But that can often be because you're facing like a really bad list or something like that. All else being equal, you will often not have those games, which I think is what you mean. I just want to clarify your point, right? I mean... There are a hundred, a thousand bad lists, Tom, that will drop on the table. Just like literally poorly constructed lists that you will wreck with this army. You will wreck it. I'm going to wreck it. Sure. Okay. But that's not what you actually mean. You mean in sort of like tournament play where you're assuming a sort of modicum of list construction where there's a minimum bar hit often. Right. You are not going to have those fights. Which by the way, irate is a good thing. I don't like that there are armies where that does exist. Well, what I would say is that like the problem, my concern would be the reliability. Like I don't know that like there's just some... Yeah. What do you mean? I think that there are some hard counters to KO. And I think that like it almost has to play like a skirmish shooting mobility list. Like that is the build for the book. Sure. I think like that's a broad category, but sure. I think that in general it's going to play. If you... If what you mean there is like they don't... They can't play a melee hammer game. Yeah. I mean outside of the Barak that can mix in a bunch of fire slayers and will generally... Like they can't play an anvil game. Ignore hammers. They don't have anvils. There are like... I'm not sure there are a ton of armies that truly flip on the switch like that. And we'll have that. Some do. Some do. But would you critique war clans? Let's take war clans for example, okay? Sure. And specifically let's just take the iron jaw since that's a simple thing to do there, right? Yep. They're a heavy hammer, right? That's the game that they play. Very low magic. No shooting. Always melee focused, right? It is a... Like against all else you win in melee. Yeah. 100% sure, right? What I'll say though is that... But like if you're playing like a bone splitter force, like you can bob people down. You can lock them down with no retreat and bodies and just raw meat. Sure. So like... Some options. I'm more pointing to the iron jaw side of it and saying there are other unit tasking forces out there that are still beloved and seem to be perfectly fine. Sure. Yeah. That's fine. Yeah. But I don't disagree with your appraisal by the way, okay? Yeah. I think under that broad category you've set up of like screening, skirmishing, shooting, the three S's of KO, yes that is how they tend to play, right? Right. Yeah. I think that's fair. And what I would say is that like what... A lot of what frustrated me was that like the games that those give generally are not always the most fun because people don't get to hit. Like you're not playing the game fair. You're picking up your models and moving elsewhere. Yeah. Sure. Maybe. I don't know. I think people love seeing KO. Like yes, there's always a sort of innate hatred of shooting, but at the same time I feel like they got fair enough with this. Yes, it's like it's never going to be as beloved as somebody who plays this super fair game of running across the table and punching you in the face, right? Shooting does always bring with it the potential of ill will. Paul, what do you think about all this? So maybe let me rewind a little bit. Yeah, sure. And just kind of go to the math hammer of KO real quick. Okay. Because I... Back when I did my video on Cities of Sigmar shooting, I included all of the KO stuff in there as well because of Tempest Eye. Yep. And one of the things that I noticed was all of your stuff in KO on like a power projection per point level, it's all about the same. That is like, if you take, you know, an ironclad, 510 points, if you take 500 points of entrance rigors loaded out fully with shooting, you get about the same damage output as that ironclad. Right. Right. So they're very balanced across that. And I think that's what makes for some really interesting list building because you're not really making firepower sacrifices. You're making sacrifices in bodies, mobility, those sorts of things, synergy sort of. And with that, I would also say that I think we kind of might have the synergy thing a little bit backwards. Okay. Yeah. Because I think if you look at just the sheer amount of shooting that KO can put out, there, if they had good buffs for their shooting, they would be... Zeech. It would be Zeech. Right. So they have to have the dialed bag abilities, the re-roll one to hit in a specific situation. I mean, they don't because Zeech doesn't. Well, even Zeech got toned down. But anyways, this is a Zeech show again. Continue. So I think the key is that it's an army that has a surprising number of options, despite it looking like a relatively thin book. And it seems on the surface like it's lacking certain tools. It might have... I just totally lost my train of thought for a second there. It's all right. It seems like it's lacking in these components. But in actuality, it's not, right? It actually tends to be rather even, and where a lot of your choices get to be made is across things like the specific tools you want. You're not choosing things for their shooting powers. You're choosing things for, do I want more bodies? Do I want more mobility? Do I want more utility? Right. That's what... That's the choices you're making. Right. Right. Exactly. I think when you start looking at the army through that lens, it completely changes your potential list building, because there's not anything in this book that is worthless. I think everything basically is punching at around the same weight class. Do you honestly believe that? Maybe a couple of the heroes are not that useful. Honestly, like tell me about Brock. Tell me about your list. No, I understand. Paul was meaning of the units, not of the heroes. Yes. I get where you were going. Yeah. You're saying there's a justification. You can make justifications for all three of the boats. You can make justifications. You can see why people would take ARCO, why people would take Thunders, why people would take Endring Riggers. Right? All of these might have a place. Why are people taking ARCO again? Because... Because they're a block of 10 wounds with a four up save for 90 points. They can flip over to a four plus re-rollable save and whatever, whatever, hold a point. Right? Yeah. They're good at holding objectives. Yeah. They're good backfield because you need some numbers and they're cheap as dirt comparatively. And cheap bodies, quantity has its own quality. Right. And just to give you a comparison, look at Free Guild. Free Guild Guard Sword and Shield is a very, very similar profile. There are 80 points for 10 bodies, one wound each, four up save. I take two or three units of those guys in like every city's list to be my guys that are holding objectives, that are screening, that are chaffing people up. Like they're just useful. Well, that's in a list that's not teleporting around the board and high mobility. Sure, they don't need to. Who's chasing down your ARCO? Okay. And if they are, like your ARCO are screens and standards. That's what they're there to do. And like, it's the same. Okay. Let me give you an easy example for this, Tom. In like for the daughter's list I ran for a while. I ran a couple packs of 10 sisters of slaughter. Okay. Yep. And they were garbage. They couldn't kill anything because they were never the thing getting buffed. Right. All right. And they died pretty easy. I mean they had shields, but they died still pretty easy. They were every game the most valuable unit I had. Okay. Okay. Because they were 10 bodies that would dynamically become a long screen, a double screen that would backfield hold. Are they movement four with no run in charge? No, they were movement six, but I wasn't ever charging anything. And with the six inch pylon. Again, I never, I didn't, again, they didn't fight anything. They did zero damage, Tom. Right. But they have more mobility. The six inch pylon is irrelevant. If they fought something, they died. If I piled them into combat, they're dead instantly. They evaporate. Okay. These things are, like Arco are tougher than them. If these, if this unit got touched, they were dead. Pick them up. Anything killed them. Okay. So what they were was a two inch movement buff over this, because these guys can still run. I'm not running and charging. I can run with an Arco just as well. And I would run them onto a point or screen or double screen and go for, they were every game keeping me, which by the way, this. In the melee, they would be a, in the bubble, a four up six up, which is a better defense than even Arco. It's not a better defense than a four up re-rollable. They get that re-rollable once a game. That's all they need it. It's a five round game where you're not in combat that often. It's all they need it. Okay. And at a deeper, like, here's what I'm saying. At a deeper level, the existence of those things, the reason I'm making this comparison is because that was a knife edge dockless. I wasn't playing you. Right. I was playing Calibron. It was very similar. Right. It was a knife edge list. It relied on very few strong hammers that had to be pro applied surgically. Yep. And you, and you could teleport your, your stuff around. You could tell for your screen wherever you wanted them. But again, I didn't know that wasn't the thing getting teleported. Okay. But you have that option. Sure. I do. You're absolutely right. Where you put these guys down, they're not going anywhere for the entire game. Unless they get in a boat and then go somewhere else. But sure. No, that takes three turns. Or I would just like to point out that you have very little in this army to use your command points on. So they're basically movement tech. Right. Sure. Like, that's the reality. Do you have heroes nearby to make them run? Probably where my heroes are hanging out in the bow. Your heroes are probably in boats. It depends where you're, I don't think that's always true. I don't think that's always true. I see a lot of people have their heroes not in the boats. Yeah. I would, I would, like, I would challenge the fact that you have heroes on the field behind them. I just like. Yeah. Okay. Yep. At any rate, let's take a look at some people who've played the army because, because, uh, and gotten real results. Because what I'll say is none of the three of us have played in a tournament. So with this army. Right. And it's current form. True, David. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Vince, I'm just going to jump out of the call and back in real quick because my sound on this end is messed up. Okay. I'll be like two seconds. You go right ahead. I'm going to cover up your faces in a moment anyways. So you just come on back in a moment. Here we go. So while Paul is gone, we're going to bring up a nice little list here. I'll be back in a moment. All right. I know I'm kind of covering. Let's see. Can I get this big enough to actually like so it'll be visible? Let's find out. We'll go. Well, we'll zoom way in and we'll just look one list at a time. That's the easy way to do it. Probably need to go bigger. Okay. So here I've got a bunch of lists of folks that have played KO from around the world. This was compiled by Dan. AOS short stand. So thank you very much. Great stuff up here. I'll explain. Oh, let's just very quickly look at the top. So we got Phil McGinnis. I don't know what event this was. Photo the sixth. He took third. Daniel Scott at the center of the face. How large are these events? Right here. So he took third out of 36. Descent of the faithful took fourth out of 32. Gary Percival, what he did, he won. We don't know what he placed because he won didn't actually give the results like that. Here we had Luca who took fifth out of 35. Sean Tubman who took first out of 18th. And then two from Cron. Cron played in two different events. Took 30th out of 220 and eighth out of 50 with his lists. Okay. So nice little representation from the, from obviously sense there. There hasn't been that many huge events in between when the book launched and when we all stopped being able to play war. Right. So this is a nice little representation across there. Oh, a short clarified fall of the old world. Nice. That's the name of it. Okay. So and then a note on color coding up here. If the, if the thing is green, that means it was selected at least five times. If it's this, we'll call it a, we'll call it more of a, what would you call that flesh color? I suppose Caucasian flesh, maybe a pale flesh color. It's been selected three to four times over the whole thing. And if it's salmon, it's one to two times. That's maybe more of like a, maybe a beige red probably. I don't know. Anyway. So what's interesting to me here is that there's actually quite a lot of different items selected. So like, if you look across all three of the, all three of the battalions are represented. Okay. So iron sky attack, iron sky command, and then one grunt stock escort wing. Okay. There's Barak Ziflin, Zilfin, sorry. Definitely dominates, but it's, but then every L, every other thing got also chosen. So here's a Barak Nar. Here's a Barak Mornar and then Barak Erbaz. Right. So the, my point is of the non Ziflins, they're all different. Right. Yeah. Uh, the generals are, uh, interesting in that you have the Endron master with Endron harness, the basic Endron master, the navigator, three people took care of, sorry, four chemists again, popular. And then the Endron master with dirigible suit. Yep. So. No one took admirals. No, no one took admirals, uh, as far as within this, this space. Nope. Uh, and then when you look at the rest of the heroes, somebody, Daniel, by the way, did take Brock. I would just like to point that out. Sure. So you can't have your own pet unit. Every, every army could have one pet unit. Uh, but there's, you know, you see lots of Endron masters. There's lots of Endron masters with dirigible suits, not as the general, right? Yeah. There's a lot of Endron masters down here. Lots of navigators down here. Uh, so for example, Sean took double navigator. Well, so how often was navigator taken in, in, uh, in battalion, uh, in non-iron sky command lists? How often was a navigator taken in non-iron sky command lists? Okay. That's a great question. And the reason why I ask is because the army forces you into certain decisions. Sure. Uh, he, right here with Daniel, he took the, the navigator in iron sky attack. Right. Because Mornar has the staff that is a chemist array. No, he's Brocknar. Not Mornar. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I was looking at everyone. No, you're fine. You're fine. Yep. So, um, yeah, I mean the answer is yes. A lot of, a lot of the iron sky command obviously is the one where the, you see the, the heroes. Yes. You're not wrong. Yep. Um, because obviously it has the three and what you're pointing out is that it has three units chosen from the following list. Aether chemist, etheric navigator or Endermaster. Right. And so what you see is, you know, people fill that decision is made for you. Yeah. Sure. And so people are making that decision. Now, obviously everybody with iron sky command, they also have a, an iron clad, which is down at the bottom. So we'll, we'll talk about that. Right. Um, but I thought this is interesting. Like a lot of people are using obviously they all, there's a lot of, uh, magic items. I'm going to talk about heroes for a moment and then I'll let everybody, well, we'll kind of go back and forth. Obviously a lot of these magic items are the stuff that we would see coming directly from the, um, Barak. So for example, the aether charge rune. Right. The staff of ocular optimization. Yep. Right. That kind of stuff. Um, but you also see quite a few spells in a bottle. Quite a few. I think there's four spells in a bottle in this list. Four out of seven people took spells in a bottle. Um, Phosphorite bombs. Very popular. For a great item. Phosphorite bomblets. I should say four people also had Phosphorite bomblets. Yep. Um, so. Yeah. I mean, there's, there's the gale force staff you're talking about on the navigator by the way, Tom and in more. Uh, so yeah, I mean, all in all, uh, interesting. Uh, interesting stuff. I don't know. I mean, what's your, what's your thoughts on the hero parts of this? Paul, are you back? I think you're back. Yeah, I'm here. Welcome back, buddy. What are your thoughts on the hero selection here? I mean, obviously what we see is the things that are having a lot of value seem to be the Endred Master, the chemist, and then Endred Master in both versions, by the way. And then the navigator. Well, how many, let's hold on, stop. How many Endred Masters in both, in the not, in the foot version are actually in the list? How many on foot Endred Masters are there? Okay. Uh, so over here, Phil McGinnis took two of them. Okay. Okay, so he's probably doing a melee boat. Uh, and then, let's see. They, uh, Luca took one on foot over here. And... Are they all in Iron Sky Command? Uh, he's in Iron Sky, no. Uh, the first one was in Iron Sky Attack. The second one is in Iron Sky Command. And that's it. They're the ones with the version on foot. The other ones, there are other Endred Masters that are Dirigible Suits. So there are three selections of Endred Master on foot. And... Well, two lists. Two lists, yes. And one, two, three, four, five with the Dirigible Suits guy. Right. Which that's more expected. Sure. Yep. A lot better. Yeah. He's a lot better. Okay. So, um, yes. So the, the, um, so what do we think of this? Paul, what do you think of the hero selection here? I would say pretty predictable based on my own reading of the book. Um, there's, I'm a little bit surprised at how many, uh, Endred Masters on foot there are. Right. Not surprised that there's no admirals. Um, one Brock seems probably right because he's, uh, very similar in power level to the, uh, Endred Master and Dirigible Suit. And it's like more specific items. Right. But if you weren't planning on putting an artifact or command trait on him anyway, then there you go. Um, So I think he's actually like in comparison, I think he's fairly priced. Um, Yeah. I mean, I would expect a lot of navigators. I would expect a bunch of chemists mostly to be carrying spells in a bottle and, um, you know, Endred Master and Dirigible Suit for sure. Um, and you know, I feel like a lot of the other things are, you're kind of forced into them or, you know, or you're doing something kind of corner case and specific. But I feel like those three heroes are basically like the backbone of your list when you're trying to. Optimize your hero selection. I feel like the Endred Master and Dirigible Suit, chemist and navigator are like the three main choices. And those are definitely reflected here in the stats as you know, the three things that are being taken most often. Okay. Right on. Tom, what are your thoughts? Yeah, I mean, I would say I would agree that I don't think there's anything surprising with the heroes other than those Endred Masters. Uh, the two in one list is quite an anomaly. Like I said, he's probably trying to do like a melee boat. Um, and he's trying to get some men and jamming the boat into somebody so they can hit their famers. It would be, I would point out that he does have so, so let's talk about his items. Let's, let's talk about what that means. So the, uh, obviously the Endred, the second Endred Master has the staff of ocular optimization, which is just the, the one that comes with Zylphen, right? Right. Whereas the other guy has the grudge. He run an attack squadron, squadron two. He is running an attack squadron. Yes. Weird. Uh, so he does have the, his Endred Master with Endred Harness, right? Has the grudge bearer, um, uh, command trait, right? Because obviously he's in Barak Zylphen and the, the advantage to Zylphen is that you can dodge the command trait. Right? Yeah. Uh, if you, uh, if you have a non admiral general, basically, right? And so grudge bearer is after armies are set up, pick one enemy hero, double the damage inflicted by weapons used by this general that target that hero, right? Um, and then he's also got the seismic shock gauntlets, uh, which is after the bearer makes a charge move, you can pick one enemy unit within one inch of the bearer and roll a die on a two plus that enemy unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. So there you go. Uh, okay. So let me, uh, and then looking at his, his, uh, his, um, his kid out here is interesting. Tom, given what you were talking about, because if we look at the rest of his list, he's got two tenors of Arco and I'll say that the Arco with the, he's required to have those because of the battalion. Sure. The, the way that these guys play out, you see the Arco happen a lot, right? One, because of Italians and two, just because it's pretty common. Like for every frigate, he has to have one unit Arco. Right. In the iron sky attack. Yes. It has a minimum of two Arco. Sure. Um, what you see is even in a lot of people that are running, uh, iron sky command. Okay. Uh, a lot of people has a strong statement given that we're talking about a universe of seven here, but you see lots of different uses of Arco here. Okay. Obviously in iron sky command, you're required to have one. So you look at Gary's list. He has the minimum one. You look at Luca's list. He, he goes to two, even in iron sky command. Uh, Sean has a 20 block and a 10. Okay. Yep. Uh, and he's running iron sky command. Uh, same with Cron in his second one. And this is interesting because with Cron, we can actually track it over time because Cancon was first and then, uh, South Australia GT. Okay. So like time wise, he started here and then Cron went to here. If that makes sense. Okay. So, uh, and where he started in his original list was just a 20 block of Arco and a 20 block of Thunders. He ended up ditching the Thunders. Sorry, not ditching the Thunders. They moved down here. I'm lying to you. I'm sorry. He ended up ditching what I'm going to say is the, the single unit of 20 Arco split him into two 10s, added another 10. Okay. Okay. So he's running 30 Arco. Does he have any other battling? Uh, and he is in Barak, Zip, Zip, Zip. Does he have any frigates? Ziflin. He does not have any frigates. Uh, it's, does he, what's his general? His general is an Aether chemist. That's exactly why he has to have three. And then he's got, he's got 300 rigors, the 20 Thunders, and well, I mean, yes, he came to that as a choice. He does have a choice. He could have used one of those other things we're talking about. Right. Well, he would have had to use either a frigate or he would have to use an Endermaster general. Like those are the, his two other options. And if he did not want those, he had to have three units of 10. Yeah, I agree. I'm just saying he didn't make those choices. If that makes sense, right? Right. And then obviously he's got the ironclad down here because, and that's got the ebullient buoyancy aid to, so he can cart around his 20 Thunders and still fly high and stuff. Right. Yep. Yep. So it's interesting that he moved to that. I would also point out that he started with the realm scourge rupture as his first spell in a bottle at Cancun. And then went to the warp lightning vortex at South Australia GT. Yeah, he did. We see two warp lightning vortexes, both he and Gary use that. And then over here, Luca ran the darkfire demon, which I actually like a lot. I think the darkfire demon is a hot pick at 50 points. Half the points and boy can it lay out some destruction. Yeah, it just depends on, on it's very match dependent because you have to be able to get your, your unit into threat range for it and the, and do that wizards where the vortex has a much larger spread and a lot more splashed it. Like it's just going to splash damage everywhere. I understand and I don't disagree, but I would also say that there's a lot of wizards running around right now and that's probably not going to change anytime soon. So, you know, Now on the two lists that were running the warp lightning vortex, were they also running navigators? So yes, they both were, that is correct. Yes. So the warp lightning vortex plus navigator is pretty good. Well, get units stuck in that warp lightning vortex. Yep. Absolutely. Moving on through other things that are interesting. What I like about this just at a high level and I know it's kind of small again, folks, but I just kind of had to make it small so I could only, so I could actually like see everything across the suite. What's fascinating to me is not a huge number of endring rigors across the armies. They're here. Okay. I don't want to undercut. I'm sure they're in packs of six, right? No. No, quite. Actually, no. So, Gary has three packs of six in his list. Okay. But everybody else who took them, took them in either packs of three and then there's one example of them being in a nine. And the nine was with Sean who took out his event, right? He was playing the smallest event, but he did take first place, so there you go. So he had a nine pack. You know, when you look at Luca here, he had two three packs and Cron in his second go had a single unit of three. Yep. So yeah, lots of different variations on that. The, not as many as you would, as you might think, I think a lot of people were really placing huge stock in them as being sort of the thing and clearly they're good. I'm not saying they're bad. I'm just saying like there's lists without them. They seem to be part of the construction, but they're more part of your well-balanced breakfast, right? Right. Right. Are there any sky wardens anywhere? No, zero sky wardens. It's the only, it is the, so the thing that like the zero sky wardens doesn't surprise me. Okay. Cause I just feel like they don't hold up against Enron rigors. The thing that surprised me was that nobody selected the Underworld's chemist. Warband. Yeah. Warband. Yeah. The Thundrix guys. I would have thought they would have shown up somewhere. There's nothing else than the fact that they play against the, the regular chemist buff, like they can, they can both work to buff like when he buffs hits and when buffs blooms, right? Yep. So I was kind of surprised that that, that nobody ended up taking those because it is an interesting little pack. It's one of the most interesting Underworld's warbands in the normal game for the normal game, right? Probably second place behind the Beast of Chaos, who is obviously the best. Like, cause that guy is gold. Yeah. Mr plus one to hit is, is pretty great. The boats are very like everybody, everybody basically took gun haulers. I will say Kron did not in his second list, but he took two in his first list and everybody else has at least one with like some people running two or three. Yep. Six out of these seven lists have gun haulers and four of these lists have multiple gun haulers. They're so strong. Then combined with the actual Endermaster. Yeah. It's a, it's a strong. Oh, there you go. Okay. Oh yes. Of course. Oh, I know Sean. That's who it was. Okay. So yes. AOS short set for contact. Sean is a former New Zealand master and New Zealand number of players. I know Sean. How did I, I met Sean. I can't believe I couldn't remember Sean. It's just seeing these names on this list disconnected as soon as AOS shorts reminded me. Yes. Sean's a great dude. So it does not surprise me. He is a, and he took first in a small event. Yeah. He took first in a small event, but I don't think that's a negative judge. He would be, he would be threatening the top in any size event. Sean, I remember now watching Sean play a couple of games. He's. Again. So you're talking about some of the best players in their class. And with him taking that Gary, Percival, Cron, all of them. Are some of the best KO players in the world. I would, I would tend to agree with that. And that's why it's interesting to me what they pick. Right. Because I think that they have good insight into the book. Right. They, these are people who have all played lots of games with these lists probably. I mean, I know Cron has played a ton of games with his. There's no question about that. Yeah. Okay. And, and so gun hauler is strong. I love seeing how many people have the, the, the debt settler torpedo. We talked about this right before the show. Yeah. This is the item where when it charged, when you charge on a two up for the first time, when you, you can roll a die on a two up, you do D six mortal wounds. Yeah. Very strong. Right. Yep. The, it's funny because the iron clouds much, much less aligned in what everybody picked for them. Okay. Yep. So like, by the way, this I think Dan, I think there's an error in your list because over here on the iron cloud, he wrote it like, I think it auto filled on him. Cause it says Zambacarp debt settler spar torpedo, but obviously that's not a selection on the iron cloud that you can take. But what you can take is the other version of that thing, which is like the Zambacorp Ram, I think is what it's called deal breaker battle Ram. So I suspect he typed, he typed Zambacarp and it just auto filled on him. But at any rate, that's the one where when you charge, you get to ogre charge with your iron cloud. Right. Two people took the Ram assuming that's what this one's supposed to be. Right. Somebody took the last word, which is obviously the thing that lets you shoot before you, when you get charged, right? Yep. Which I think is awesome. Somebody took the whole plates, which is extra wounds. And then Cron, Cron is a big fan of the Abolian buoyancy aid, which lets you, as we mentioned earlier, load it down. Yeah. Fly high. Basically, since he's a fan of 20 thunders, Cron has been back in the 20 thunders. Yeah. Since the beginning, he wants that buoyancy aid. So his iron cloud can be constantly flying high, even when it's got all 20 thunders percent. Yeah, which makes sense. Sure. That is a crazy depth of story. It's pretty brutal. Yeah. And it's literally half of his army. Sure. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's 990 points. Right. Yep. Without heroes. Without heroes. Sure. But like, it's good. It puts out pain. Yep. There's no doubt. Yeah. That is somebody, whoever that drops on has a real bad day. That's for sure. So what I like about this is that all the, you see all the boats, by the way, I didn't mention frigates, but lots of people have frigates as well. Yep. Obviously partially because of the, the battalions. Battalions they're running, right? But I mean, that's, they found it worthwhile enough to, to take often one or multiple frigates, which says something again. Right. Yeah, they're not terrible. Yeah. Yep. So it's like, I thought this selection was interesting because what it showed was that one, people in general are finding the battalions to be a good starting point. Right. Well, if you want any item, that's not your, not your, God, everybody was aligned with a skyboard, right? No one took generic. No one took generic. Everybody took a skyboard. Yes. Correct. Yeah. You basically have to have that in order to take any items otherwise. Well, keep in mind, a lot of people, sure, a lot of people do take the battalion. I'm sure because the item is really good. And as we've said, as we said back in the original show and I stand behind, KO have some bonkers, good items. Yeah. They're best, the best things in the book are items. And if you want, I'll bite at those. You have to take a battalion. You don't have a choice. Sure. I would also point out that multiple people did take collector, however, on their general, right? Which if you choose this general to have an artifact of power, you can choose one extra friendly hero to have an artifact of power because you can sneak in, you can sneak in collector with a chemist general. Yeah. If you're in Zylphen, Zylphen. Yeah. I always want to switch to F and the L. So it actually lets you sneak in another item pretty easily. Right. Now, did anybody not run a battalion? No. Everybody has a battalion. All seven armies have a battalion. Yeah. And all battalions are represented with command being the most popular, then attack squadron, then escort wing last. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what's fascinating to me about this is, so, so let's, let's, I want to look at this in return to your original statement, right? Yeah. I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I think in order to return to your original statement, right, that these tend to be screening, skirmishing, shooting armies. Okay. Which I've said I don't broadly disagree with. Right. I think that's pretty true. Well, skirmishing, like I don't know that like yeah. Well, that's what you were meaning by pickup and redeploy, right? You're using skirmishing to, to represent that, right? Yes, but like screening, like there's not a lot to screen like pure, you're not picking up Arco like our go can't screen with like if they teleport, the Arco can't go with them. Sure, I mean, outside of maybe the people running a tax squadron who can be a little more cagey with their Arco, sure. Well, no, like, but those Arcos still don't deploy. You like, they have to deploy as part of like a charge, or I'm sorry, they have to deploy as part of a move, right? Correct, they can leave either before or after it's moved, yes. My point is it's much easier for them to go with, right? Because they can drop and then screen. Right, yes, they can drop and then dump out of the ship. Yeah, your Arco can't access a mobile screen if you're using a tax squadron. Right. Yeah, so broadly within that category though, these are some pretty different armies. Like. Oh yeah. I mean, are they though? Yes, Iron Jaws lists look much more similar than this. Much more similar. Like just again, not that like, I make the comparison. So every list, let me, let me, so every list is between one to three boats, one to three units of Arco, two to four heroes probably, and a couple of balloon boys, and then maybe some thunderous mix-in. No, no, no, not at all. That's exactly what I'm saying. No, okay. So the, like, no. Yes, yes. The first list over here has one, two, three, four, five, six boats and two units of Arco. No thunders, no Andrin Rickers. Okay. Okay, so how many lists have more than three boats? How many lists have more than three boats? One, two, one, you're gonna make me count. You're asking all these weird questions. One, two, okay. Two of the seven have more than three boats. And then one, two more have exactly three boats. Two of the lists have two boats, and one has one boat. So the point being is that we run the gamut here from one boat to six boats. Right, but what did I say? That's pretty different. What did I say about? You didn't say one to three. You said one to three boats. I said most lists are one to three boats. That's exactly what it is. Okay. Like, five of the seven lists. Okay. Like my point is that, like, they are all largely similar and they're gonna all do similar things. As Paul said, you're just trading mobility and you're trading bodies. You're not trading firepower. I disagree highly. And here's why I'll say that. And again, iron jaws lists are way more similar than this. Way more, dude. Okay. They tend to run one battalion, not use all three. There is one good battalion. They tend to have either one of two selections on either your, like you're either in a particular war clan or you're clanless. Those are your two options. Okay. List-wise and heroes, they look almost identical. All right. Actual construction of the units is your iron fist. Fill it out. That's your army. Okay. And it's like, the variants is usually like, you happen to have three pigs or six pigs over here, but you've got this big block of hard boys. You've got this two screening units of pigs. Like that's the list. Okay. And my point is, we don't seem to negatively judge that. Right? Yeah. And there's a big variation in the number of endring rigors that show up. And I feel like with the amount of points that we're talking about sinking into boats, saying most of them are one to three is casting a pretty wide net. Like that's like- It's following the battalions. And that's my point. Is that like the battalions dictate everything. They control the entire boat. And- The guy who took six boats wasn't following his battalion only. Like he's an iron sky attack. He had to take the two frigates. I agree. Then he decided to take four more boats. That were not frigates. That are not frigates. Right. Because every frigate that he had to take, he'd also have to take an arco you. Sure. I understand that. Yeah. His battalion is four units. I got that. And then on top of that, he had still quite a lot of points remaining, I would point out, right? Because that was a total of 680 points he spent on that in the year. It's not in the battalion cost, right? Yep, yep, yep. And then what he decided to do was go spend, you know, darn near a thousand points on additional boats. Okay. That's a very different choice than loading up 20 thunderers as your next thing and a pack of endring rigors. And then Army is going to play very differently. Yeah. One of the other big things that I'm kind of seeing here, it's not that obvious when we're just kind of looking at a big spreadsheet, but it looks like that idea that the Army is all about low drops seems to not be the case because we have a couple of attack squadrons in here and that's like only four units going into the battalion. So you have a whole bunch of other drops that you have to make to make that work. There's at least two attack squadrons, right? That's correct. There are two attack squadrons. Yes, that's accurate. And how does the attack squadrons do? Third and fourth place out of 30 plus person events. So, you know, pretty good. I mean, if you're top three, I think that's a pretty good performance. And fourth is, you know, well, it'll take a fourth place. I'm not going to yell at a fourth place. We'll take that any day of the week. And there's one escort wing. That's correct. Yeah, Cron ran an escort wing. Sorry, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to shrink my little picture over here. Hold on. Okay, I'll make me smaller. So four out of the seven then are Iron Sky Command. Four out of the seven are Iron Sky Command, which I think is what we would expect. It is sort of the most popular one. It's the largest build around, right? Yeah. And it's the one that it reduces your drops the most and does the least other stuff for you. Right. Sure. Sure. Like you're paying, what, 140 points, 120 points? Yeah. To put everything together. To lower your drops? 130 points. Well, it also fits in Endring Riggers. Like it does a lot of other useful things. Sure. Yep. Right. It's interesting that people, everybody, no one except Gary chose to max the Endring Riggers, which is interesting. So like the one of the two, I should say, two of the people who took the Iron Sky Command chose the one, one unit of Endring Riggers, one being a three pack, one being a nine pack. That's a very different experience. Three Endring Riggers versus nine Endring Riggers are a very different amount of damage. And then the other person. Right, but they're probably, their loadouts are also gonna be different as well. Like the three are gonna be able to teleport around the nine or not. Yeah, yeah. And so the nine are likely gonna be gun oriented and they're gonna be focused on providing gun support at range. I don't disagree. I'm just saying it's a very different experience is all I'm putting a finger on, right? It looks like we also, in all of these Endring Rigger entries, we don't have what the loadouts are. Nope. I think if they're all could be dramatically different loadouts. Yeah, exactly. He got as much information as he could. I'm not sure if maybe because it's blank, it just means maybe Dan's watching, maybe he'll answer. But I think if it's blank, they would just took the stock or whatever, maybe is the choice. Like they didn't take any of the special weapons. I'm not sure if that's what that means or not. So it could be what it means. Well, that would make Gary's list really interesting because he was right. That would mean three units of six dudes with saws. That's really gonna be on the way. Well, but no, it's not because, because when you teleport the ship, six go along with each ship and they're all within shooting range. And so you actually get 18 shots out of six dudes on threes and fours, neg one, rend one damage. So you actually get like good shooting out of packs of six that teleport with the ships. Like, because you'll want long range guns on the things that aren't teleporting because you don't need long range guns on things that are 12 inches away. Yeah, he said if there's no entry, he did answer. He said if there's no entry, it means he didn't have the information. Right, so Gary's decision to do 12 inch guns is the right move if those pairs of six are paired with ships. He has one, two boats. Yeah, he should have two boats, right? Correct. And the reason why, in other variations of the list, he dropped something and jumps to nine on the third pack because he has one six pack associated with each boat and then the nine pack associated as a floater unit when he runs nine. That is like a shooting floater unit. Sure. So overall, pretty interesting stuff. I thought this was really cool to look at because what I saw here was actually quite an interesting amount of variance. Yes, I do agree that the battalions are often a heavy influence, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing. What I see here is still lists that are going to feel and play very differently. We're gonna put this down somewhere. You guys are gonna be back on camera here, so pull your pants up. All right. No, I thought that was really cool. I thought it was neat to see those, these are obviously a bunch of really good players and I thought it was neat to see there what they saw as valuable in the book, right? So. Yeah, definitely. So thank you very much to Dan for sharing that. I think on, so and it's part of this in watching it play, I mean, it's amazing to me, we talked about gun haulers being an MVP. Paul, what's your take on gun haulers? MVP. Yeah, sure. They are on the math hammer. They are one of the ones, although they're pretty tightly clustered on their, like, firepower per point, they're on the higher end. So, and they're extremely mobile and they, because they can fly high, they are just threatening every objective on the board all the time. So it's gonna force your opponent to hold models back to guard the objective so that they just don't get pounced on by one of those. They're projecting good firepower. They're, yeah, I think they're just a solid all around choice and they're filling in a battle line depending on what Brock you're in. Yeah, I mean, I will say, I agree. Yeah, they're in Erbaz, which no one took Erbaz actually in that list, which is kind of surprising. Yeah, which is interesting because that's one of my favorites. Oh, there you go. But yes, I agree. Like gun haulers ability to be so mobile, to always fly high, to always threaten, right? To pull people, to pull the rigors along if you've got them with the torpedo, it actually makes them so, sorry, the, yeah, the torpedo. With the Debt Settler torpedo, it makes them so ungodly threatening to lightly guarded objectives. Because driving into set, like shooting at the objective, like even if, you know, shooting at the, they don't have to necessarily fly high and then drop on it and nail the nine inch charge. Yeah, they do also like fly 12 inches, right? That is also a thing. 18 once again. Sure, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, yes, right? So they can go, you can, you can a head full, right? Once again. So the fact that they can just shoot out 12 or 18 inches, shoot the stuff on an objective, charge the thing, do D6 mortals before they've made a melee attack means that, and that's, you know, not- Well, they better kill it because like they're not, they don't have melee attacks. I understand. They have like four little boarding weapon attacks. But my point is something lightly guarded, that's often going to die to that kind of thing. Right. Nothing else, it'll just die to a battle shock. Yeah, sure. Absolutely. Right. Yes. If there's no hero around to, to, you know, battle shock proof them and it's a small pack of 10 weedy dudes and it takes nine of them off through shooting and charging. Bye. Right, that last guy's gone and you have the point. Like that's what just happened, right? So I just, I think that they're unbelievably strong. I agree with that. I think ironclads, I love how they show up. I love the raw firepower that they pick up and drop around the board with because they do bring such incredible threat. Like watching people try to screen and protect themselves from ironclads is hilarious, right? Because they do have just they, they are floating battleships and they just lay out pain, right? Yup. It should also be stated- And they're also usually loaded with like thunders or something like that, that are dealing out even more damage. Sure. Could be loaded with thunders, could be dragging along things that go with them, right? Balloon boys that come with them. It should also be stated that they are one of the most anvil-y units in the army because they automatically have a share of gold and can choose to pop the re-roll saves, right? Means that they're on a three up re-rolling. So again, once a battle, when they need to, when they need to live, they can pop that and it's unreal how tough that gets, right? Yeah. All right. And then if you have Endron Riggers and you have our Endron Master hanging out, then you're healing. Sure. Absolutely. Yup. Yup, yup. All right. Anything we didn't touch on gentlemen, I thought this would be a fun re-review. I mean, I think what I, Tom, ultimately, I don't disagree with one of the points you made, which is, because I think that the flip side to a surgical army is that you are always, it's always a high-risk army because if things go wrong for you, right? You... One bad set of rolls. Right, exactly. If things, or I would more often credit it to one bad play than one bad set of rolls, you know what I mean? Right. But no, I get your point nonetheless. A bad thing can sort of cascade. Or it could just be a bad priority roll. Yeah, sure. Sure, sure. I mean, this is a shooting army. This is, sure, but this is a shooting army with high mobility. If they have teleporting, there's nothing you can do about that. Sure. Well, other than... Like if they're picking up and dropping units down, like you can try to screen. Sure. But there's just not enough teleporting with your ships to really cover 24, you know, like all around your ship. Sure. Like most shooting armies, they are more susceptible to the double turn. Sure. Right. Yup. Yup. And can capitalize more on the double turn than a melee army. Absolutely, yes. Because they'll be able to bring all of their firepower to bear with lower risk. Hence, it is a higher risk army because it is a lot more dependent upon that double turn. Yeah. Paul, what are you thinking? If I can translate that for people that are perhaps a little bit less competitively minded, it's gonna be making for a lot of exciting games. Yeah, that's absolutely right. Lots of surprises and twists and turns, yes. So Paul, looking at all this, what's the sort of list you think you wanna put together as you're building your KO force here? What's got your eye? What are you focusing on? As I said, I really like herbars a lot. And that, like all of the extra ether gold that you get out of herbars, I think between the D3 and when you get a unit in combat, once per game, you get an extra one. That can go super offensive on your ironclad. You can go super defensive. You can throw that around on other units to get even more firepower or more defense. There's a lot you can do, I think, with herbars, which is the other thing that's interesting about it is that you can dodge the command trait pretty easily, and you get an endring work instead of an artifact. So you can really have a freed up endring work, or freed up artifact and command trait in herbars, which is something that the other sky ports can't do. Yeah. I think Zylphen is also a good choice because their artifact is just good. Right. I mean, Zylphen is like, it doesn't surprise me that we saw Zylphen being the dominant, like being the one that's sort of at the top, because yes, I mean, Zylphen just has a lot of great stuff to it. It just does what needs to be done. Yeah, I feel like Zylphen is the one that is like the obvious good choice. Yes. But what's great about it to me is that it isn't a Petrifex elite or something like that, right? It still feels like the other ones in this book have a lot of play. Yes, it is, it does this sort of stuff it does well. And maybe it's slightly better, but there's still clearly a lot of other ones in here with gas in the engine. Can I ask, like, were these all of the KO players, or was this only the top placers? I think it was every, I don't know. I'm not, you'll have to talk to Dan. He shared this out and he has the background on it. I don't think it was all the KO players. I'm sure about that. Cause I mean, KanCon had 220 participants and we only have one list from it. So I think this was him pulling some of the top lists and top performance. This is the best performers. I believe that's an accurate statement, I guess. I don't know how deep into the field Dan was going for some of this. Like he's doing this now where he's collecting this with individualities. He did it for Ogres and, sorry, from Maw Tribes, I should say. And I found it just as fascinating there, but yeah. So what are you looking at? Do you looking for Urbaz? Okay. Yeah. I really like the chemist spell on a bottle navigator trick. Cause I think that then starts getting you into position where I think the general strategy that I like is you have gun haulers that are threatening to take all all of your opponent's objectives all the time. So that's going to force your opponent to hold units back. You take a warp lightning vortex and a navigator that's going to pin down other units in another part of the board. That's now that's really limiting what units your opponent has to come forward and attack you with. And then that set of units that are actually mobile that are looking to jump on objectives, looking to charge after you, you can really focus fire onto those and kind of like take the army out a piece at a time without by really reducing the number of threats that are coming after you. So I think that's kind of the style of play that I'm looking at. I've been, I mean, I have built a ton of lists. Unfortunately, I have not gotten the army on the table yet and I really cannot wait to do that. Well, I mean, none of us have been able to put many lists on the table at any time. Most recently, unless our spouses or shelter and hoppy partners happen to also play, yeah. Yeah, I think the big thing for me is that this is going to be an army that I am going to grind a lot of games with because I think it takes, like I think you can't just theory hammer this army. I think you have to put it on the table, play it, see how it feels and tailor your own play style to what the army can do or rather the other way around, tailor your army to your play style and you have to kind of figure that out after playing a bunch of games with it and see what balance is right. The other thing that I don't see, I don't think I've ever seen anybody mention. Okay. So, if you're looking at what the army does, what some of its downfalls are and what some of its abilities to do tricks are, I'm surprised and maybe I'm just out of the loop and haven't heard anybody do this, but going with a chemist, with a spell on a bottle, have it be Soul Scream Bridge and have a unit of 20 iron drakes that you teleport to in front of your opponent's lines. And now you would think that, allying in a shooting unit in a high shooting army is like a silly idea, but the iron drakes, because they're in an army that is balanced differently than KO, they're actually much more valuable. They have a lot more like damage per point than the rest of KO does. So it is a really like potent piece and you're throwing a bunch of four up saved dudes right in your opponent's face. If you wanted to do that, the arguably the stronger way to do it would be to do it in springy. Because you don't have to ally them so you can actually bring in a remaster, you can actually bring in a bunch of actual tools associated with them. The challenge with all of that though is like power, like you're getting the short bridge, you're not getting good bridge. Like that's the difference between this and cities. Yes, you get an automatic bridge, but it's a 12 inch bridge, both bases within 12 inches each other. And you're only doing it basically once per game. So once that bridge is down, it's down. And so it's actually like, it's not as good a mobility ultimately as ships. Like I've run a bunch, like I have the list. I've talked, like I've thoroughly had discussions with Gary Percival about this. Like we spent a lot of time in the first like couple of weeks of this book being available, just walking through all of the permutations. It's an idea, Paul. And I think that it's a neat idea. For me, what is more interesting is doing Tringy and be able to like bridge like fire slayers or bridge other things in addition to having teleport and shooting units. And so to actually do all of the, all of the everything that you're looking to do. So I don't know. My concern about Tringy is that it, I feel like it's not giving you a lot of other things other than letting you bring in other Dwarden. I mean, you're not wrong. That's basically the entire shtick of it. Like it's literally doing nothing else but bringing in another Dwarden. And I would argue that some of the best lists are exactly that, like, but all that's gonna be, as I told you before the show, like all that's highly dependent upon the points of fire slayers in the new world. Oh yeah. Who knows what that's gonna look like. Yeah. And the points of all of the other Dwarden, frankly, like all of the other Dwarden options, like other things could suddenly get really good if those other options go down in points. Sure. Sure. If, you know, if iron breakers go down. Like suddenly you have an anvil unit. Yeah. I mean, the what I'll say is this, the one thing as much as I poo poo it, like as much as I hate on Arco and I, like, I hate them. What I think might have some gas in it is a very, like, a very orthogonal list that runs 90 Arco, three blocks of 30. And then everything else in like a mobile shooting and then just basically make them peel blocks of 30 or Arco off of objectives. And that's really tough. And so you just basically win by bodies. You win by four up save bodies with a reroll, we'll say. Sure. Sure. And like, and make them grind on Arco while you shoot them off. And if you can get a round of shooting or two with pistols in that volume, you're actually going to clear some models. Arco, once you actually get all of your weapons in range, they actually have pretty good fire. No, I agree with that completely. But the key is, is that it's that tricky, what you just said of getting everything within range. Which is not always the easiest. Again, what I would say is that I think that there may actually be gas in like super heavy Arco lists. And then basically one contingent of mobile shooting. So you have like one set of ship with some thunder, maybe like a frigate with thunders and six rigors teleporting around. And then just all the rest of Arco, just all of the Arco. That you're just swamping, right? That you're just swamping objectives. And so like, then maybe you do like four blocks of 30 where those 30 are on your three objectives and then 30 are pushing forward. And then you have a jumpy teleport to you for shooting stuff off. And like, I think that that, but you'd literally have to own 120 Arco and want to paint that. And so it's a super skew list that like very few people are gonna want to do that. And so like- And I'll tell you, like a city's a Sigmar army and a Skaven army and I do not plan on having another Horde infantry army. Right, like, but I said that to say that like, there is a value as Vincent has said of like quantity has its own quality. And like because they are just so insanely priced, you could swamp the board with Arco fairly easily. Like you could put 160 on the table for like less than 1500 points. Yeah. And then some of those a battle shock related abilities might actually be relevant. Right, right. I mean, and so like that's part of the reality is that like or an admiral, like having forbidden admiral with the actual battle shock immunity bubble. Right. And so, I mean, I think that there may be some gas in those lists just because they're so orthogonal to the rest of the world right now. But I don't know, like I have 80 Arco. I don't know that I want to spend $100 and some dollars, you know, $200 to try out a list. Sure. All right, yeah. I really like Kron's list with the 20 Thunderers and an ironclad. Yeah. That's, that is adorable and I love it. It's a scary thing floating around the board waiting to murder you. Yes, absolutely. Well, and I think there's gas there. Like I have, like I went out and I have, like I have 50 some Thunderers or like built in, you know, ready to go. Like I think that there's gas in Thunderers. I just, yeah, it's just not the type of army that I want to play. Yeah, and it's, I feel like everybody always like doesn't think about like the ether gold thing, but if you're running a group of 10 Thunderers, they also get a share of ether gold. So they have one turn in the game depending on, you know, if you're being herb as or running no Skyport, you can get the extra D3 ether gold. But yeah, if they have at least one turn a game where they're going to be re-rolling all their hits. Right. So that's really powerful. It is. So what I'll say is this, let's move to sum up and close this down. Cause I feel like this has been good, but my summary of it is would be something like this. I think that I've come to be much more open to this book to the fact that it has a lot of different units that can play together in different ways. And although I agree with Tom, that it will often be a surgical and high risk, high reward army that tends to fall within, let's call it the screeny, skirmishy, shooty play style, that I think there's still lots of ways you can build within that. And to me, that's actually makes this book really interesting because I have come to appreciate it for the puzzle box that can be put together in different ways. So that's why I've come to appreciate it a lot more. Tom, any final thoughts from yourself and then I want to go to Paul. I mean, I think that it's, I think that, I think that good players piloting a list like this will always or regularly go forward. They just will because if you have a good player, they can outthink a majority of their opponents. And this will give them the tools to capitalize on that. And this gives them the tools to capitalize on it. Absolutely. But the problem is is that at the end of the day, I think that it will struggle with five minutes because it has some big holes. It can get alphaed. And if it gets alphaed, like it doesn't matter how much screen you have, some stuff just ignore screenings, like Siege. Obviously Siege has its own problems and actually Siege will struggle with KO regularly. But regardless, like there are just some things that it just doesn't do well. Paul, your final thoughts? Close us out. You know, I think I want to just circle back again to the Psychographic Profile thing. Sure. You look at those lists that we have that were top performing lists at tournaments and how different those lists are despite how few War Scrolls this book has. And they all perform a while. Right. Those are all top lists, yes. I'm shaking it. Well, they're all doing the same thing. Like this is what we just said. Within a broad category, but still playing differently. Again, I'm okay with this. Yes. Yeah, my point is that because you can do a variety of things in this army, put all the pieces together in a lot of different ways, I feel like this is like Johnny Paradise. That's how I feel about it for myself. All right. Like this scratches all of my Johnny itches. Like I just want to tinker around with lists, like which enduring work is better, which artifacts are better, which skyports better. There's so many different moving pieces that you can fiddle around with. And it just, there's just so much play in this army. Like I, it has so many good artifacts. The enduring works are so interesting. Like an abnormally high number of skyports are playable. Sure. Compared to what? Compared to other armies, like usually there's like one or two, I think you can make an argument for like four of the ones in here. Minimum, yes, absolutely. Four of them. Honestly, I think you can make an argument for all but one, but yes. Yeah, and you can definitely make an argument for not taking one at all. Yeah. Floor's on. So it's, it's just fun. And I'm really glad that this book is what it is. I really liked KO from when they first came out. I love the aesthetic of the army. Sure. I love the concept of what it felt like the army was supposed to do. And I think the new book makes the army play more like the way it feels like it's supposed to play. Yeah, absolutely. I agree with that completely. So there you go. Hopefully that gives everybody some, there's our updated thoughts on KO. Maybe we softened a little, maybe we came around. Maybe we're a lot more positive. I don't know, depends on who you are in this particular show. But at any rate, I think it's like, I am excited to see once events get going again, how this army fairs in the new world. And so I can't wait to see more people have it on the table. It's always been one that people have had a deep love for. The fans of it really do love it. So I'll be excited to see those, the ships leaving their ports and coming out and collecting that gold, gotta get that gold. So for all of you out there watching, hey, first of all, Paul, thanks for being here, buddy. Number 10. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. Number 10. Always a pleasure. I can't wait till we get to 20, Paul. You know, all I can say is clearly I've got some skills. If you ever need to replace Tom for any reason, it might need to happen. If Tom somehow has an accident involving tigers and sardine oil, I'm here. There you go. Good to know. Tom, you're not leaving me that easily. Don't even think you're getting out of this anyway. You signed that contract. I don't know what to tell you. Like, that's what the devil does, my friend. At any rate, for all of you out there watching, thank you so much. As always, please, for all of you watching, hit that like button if you've liked this. If you're still watching at this point, you must like it a little. Give it a like if you like Aether Gold and sweet ships that blow everything up. Hit that button because it helps other people find the show and I really do appreciate it. There's a lot of people sitting at home right now stuck inside watching YouTube, looking for stuff to watch. And the more we hit like, the easier it becomes for YouTube to recommend it and the algorithm and other people to find it. And I really deeply appreciate that very much. But I also really appreciate you watching. So thank you very, very much. As always, we will see you next Wednesday.