 Okay, you're live Hello everybody good morning afternoon or evening depending from the from the time location This is hyper a jamita and today we're gonna have like I mean a very interesting topic that's CBDC That's That's getting to be hyped again. I would say So today we're gonna have like two presentations One from our Adam He's a CBDC advisor and then In general details, uh, like, you know, mostly from a from an economical or banking perspective And the second presentation, uh, it will be from me. I'm I'm more like a technical guy So basically it will be like, you know, I mean just raising some challenges of of implementation or or realizing a CBDC Mostly be different. Uh, you know, I mean distributed ledger technologies So I'm not gonna go into the details into into rtgs or or or some some classical payment systems I'm I'm more focused on on like blockchain or dlt like uh, like systems So that's the plan for today And I would just stop my share and give the floor to to add them to the to the first presentation Thank you, Daniel Thank you. Thank you. Hope you can see my screen Uh, welcome everybody. Um, my name is adam I'm a CBDC advisor and co-founder of CBDC think thank budapest I engaged in the work of CBDCs about two years ago And my primary focus is on wholesale cross-border CBDCs and Actually, that's what we're gonna talk about today. Um, so central bank digital currency is our main topic I think it's important to find a proper definition for them. So I will start with that and then we will See what wholesale CBDCs are how they differ from retail CBDCs And then I will talk about the frictions in the correspondent banking arrangement, uh, which is the primary issue why wholesale CBDCs have really a momentum now I will introduce you the wholesale CBDC projects in the world and And see how they compare how we can compare them to each other What are the main benefits of those projects? And are they really better than the current correspondent banking system? let's see First, um, a central bank digital currency. So I think the most accurate definition general definition to a central bank digital currency is in simple terms that a CBDC is a digital form of central bank money It is a legal tender of a country. What does that mean? The central bank issue is the central bank digital currency in a Non-fragile, non-physical way That's the easy part legal tender of a country. What does that mean? It means that um, a CBDC Has to be accepted at every corner store In in the city at every retailer at every shop. So it is legally acceptable Payment method in the country. That's what the legal tender means There are two kind of CBDCs basically the first one is the retail CBDCs Retail CBDCs are available to the general public and they could be used for peer-to-peer payment Like buying goods and services. This is um, like the replacement of cash itself And the other part is the wholesale CBDCs All the CBDCs on the other hand are not available to the general public They can only be used by financial institutions and the central bank to settle transactions So it is just a technical means of settlement means of payment Uh, but those are the the academic definitions. Let's see what they really mean in our everyday lives How can we imagine it? In an easier way Rita CBDC, let's imagine that as digital bank notes. So they are mutable. They are Unique in its nature and they are digital and they are issued by the central bank like we have a wallet and a mobile phone on our plastic card and We can have these retail CBDCs on them as digital bank notes or the other representation of retail CBDCs are the account money that is stored on central bank accounts Like i'm sure that most of you have an account at commercial bank where you keep your deposits Now the deposits at the central bank are central bank digital currencies And if you can open an account at your local central bank, then the deposit stored in that central bank Would be retail CBDC because you can access it. You can reach it At the is accessible for the general public whole CBDC on the other hand Like I said, it's just a means of settlement for domestic or cross border interbank transactions So it makes our lives life easier Our transactions don't have to go through a lot of settlement Houses and wait days As long as they are settled It is it enhances interconnectivity between the banks and That's why it is a technical money in its nature All right, so what are the main differences of retail and wholesale CBDCs the core problem Which the CBDC has to answer in case of retail is the lack of financial integration especially in those countries where People do not have access to basic financial services like banks because the nearest Bank branch is hundreds of miles away or another island, especially in the caribbean region in Polynesia It is important to to to connect people And give them access to the basic financial Services that most of the developed nations have and the other Core problem is the extreme cash usage It could be the lack of cash usage. I mean the almost total lack of Cash usage like in the case of sweden or the extreme high cash usage like in the african countries where it causes a lot of a lot of money and Problems to to maintain the money in circulation and good quality. You know cash has to be printed. It has to be stored It has to be handled and those Those costs can be mitigated if we If really place cash with the digital representation of cash retail CBDCs the technology of retail CBDCs While there is no industry consensus what the technology should be it can be bought Distributed ledger technology or it can run on a centralized infrastructure. Both of them are totally feasible And none of them is at this point better than the other The requirements if you introduce a retail CBDC is to enhance the financial integration that goes without seeing of course Hose CBDCs the core problem is that today's Settlement systems on the world are inefficient Both domestic and both international ones and It has to be has to be sold because it costs a lot of money for both individuals and companies To transact with each other on those legacy infrastructures the technology of whole ccbc is What we see from the projects the pilot projects at this point is that it's mostly predominantly dlp so It is used as Tokenized money as tokenized central by digital currency. So it is accessible to I mean the representation of the money is as tokens And the requirements to introduce a whole ccbc is that it has to be highly interoperable with other payment systems The transaction speed has to be increased compared to the one That is incumbent in in a country Um, which can be measured by transaction per seconds and to lower the transaction fees, which is the biggest problem of all All right, so how can we introduce a whole ccbc? um The first approach could be to the enhanced compatibility model of cbc What does that mean multiple cbc arrangements and uh transfers are handled by private settlement companies So every central bank develops its own wholesale central bank digital currency system and then uh, they let the companies which have a presence in each country to Handle transactions handle wholesale cbc transaction through their banks so those banks who have An international presence have a huge advantage because wherever they are they can access Central bank digital currencies and they can settle them with them interlinked cbc systems interlinked cbc systems can happen by a technical interface Or a centralized cleaning system or decentralized cleaning process. What does that mean? um It's similar to the previous one to every central bank develops its whole ccbc system um to to like to replace its A real-time gross settlement system The incubant one and then via a technical interface or cleaning processes those systems are interconnected So it's not the banks and the bank subsidiaries who are connected to each other It's it's the the whole banking system of each central bank's jurisdiction that is interconnected um And the third one and the most integrated one is the single system for multiple cbc So it's a single multi currency system a single rule rule book And a set of participation requirements Which means that there is only one system where the Central bank digital currencies are minted or created and settled. There are no distinct systems in place All right By our wholesale cbc systems necessary Because there are a lot of frictions in the current correspondent banking arrangements the correspondent banking system as you might know Nowadays if you initiate a transaction it has to go through a lot of banks to reach an international destination And the transaction itself has very limited transparency both if you think about the fees You most of the times you don't know how much the transaction the international transaction will cost for you You got the Cost at the end only and also where your funds are in the world Your funds can be anywhere In the chain of the correspondent banks and most of the time you don't know in which country it is in which subsidiary bank it is limited operating hours every country has its A Gross settlement system and those settlement systems have limited operating hours They are not available 24 7 and those systems are essential to international money transfers because those Have to settle your transaction from one country at the other country And that's a huge problem that there are a lot of different operating hours in place in a lot of different time zones Limited interoperability and infrastructure challenges I will talk about them both in the as one problem because Both stem from the legacy infrastructure on which the current Corresponding banking system works because since the 1970s When the correspondent banking system has been created There were no real innovations. No, we're up real upgrades in the system And therefore they can be very very They are very complex. They're not easy to to update and also transaction costs Not just they are in transparency. The other thing is that every correspondent bank that handles your transaction It it It costs you a handling fee which at the end you have to pay How is it happening on the On the graph you can see It's very simple international transaction. We have a pair. We have a beneficiary pay Once the pair initiates the transaction the pair has of course an originating bank where The deposits are the initial deposits are and then the transaction goes to Respondent bank then the correspondent bank and then it arrives to the destination country to the pay But each and every one of those banks have its own correspondent banking fee and if you accumulate All of them together it will be a huge amount at the end Also there are There is a tendency now in the world that those correspondent banks who can serve as intermediaries for international transactions who create the opportunity to conduct international transactions in countries Where they have a presence is declining. It's really I would even say it's plummeting because As you can see from the diagram from the graphs here A lot of correspondent banks and a lot of corridors payment corridors Are shut down each year Because they are not a very lucrative business anymore. It's partially because of the cryptocurrencies and it's also partially because of the The number of previous correspondents Um And it can happen in the future that some countries might be underserved by the correspondent banking system on the long run if this This number plummeting continues in the future But uh, let's take a look at the world. We have a lot of wholesale central bank digital currency projects Just to mention a few there is stella stella is a Wholesale cbdc project between the european central bank and the bank of japan the jaspere bin project between the bank of canada And the monetary authority of singapore project abour in the middle east mcbdc bridge in southeast asia project yura In switzerland and project dunbar in multiple continents Um Most of these projects are bilateral like jaspere bin stella abour But there are some multilateral projects as well like mcbdc project Includes china hong kong thailand and the united arab Emirates a project dunbar includes australia malaysia singapore and south africa So they are testing Piloting their cbdc's their wholesale cbdc's with each other in a multilateral manner So it's a more complex system than the previous ones And what we've been waiting for The comparison of these models what we can see is that i've I've listed the most important pain points or fritures of the correspondent banking system And then i examined how these projects based on the project documentations and Also the the central bank speakers can answer to these frictions As you can see the correspondent banking system the incubation system is not efficient at all like Like i've told you about that previously, but if you take a look at the The latest projects and bridge dunbar and yura. They are highly available. They are 100 percent transparent Because they have instant transactions They are highly interoperable with each and there are the their technology enables cross-chain swaps They have lower transaction costs because you can spare all of the intermediary bank cost Compared to the correspondent banking system, which at the end amounts to about 50 percent of the correspondent banking systems transactional cost and the infrastructure challenges are moderates in this case because It's not even the the technical infrastructure itself. It's where the infrastructure is located How it is governed so partially it's also governance challenge But those questions will be answered in the future Like I said, these are pilot projects. So none of these projects are in live operation All right, so just to summarize what we found out based on the projects these whole accessibility systems can perform very well. They can Conduct near real-time cross-border payments. They can have They can spare a lot of money for us to 50 to 80 percent reduction and transaction costs Because of the lack of intermediary bank costs and also the trap to liquidity costs Which is important They can operate 24 7 every day of the year They can conduct direct interbank payments without intermediaries So there are no correspondents needed anymore and they can eliminate data fragmentation problems because and currently every country uses its own transaction message protocol message Standard and those standards are not 100 percent of the kids is Compatible with each other and you have to implement compression modules to overcome that Now if you create a wholesale cbdc system, the the transaction message standard is Standardized, it's unified. So you won't have those problems So our conclusion is that the cross-border cbdcs have a momentum now They have a revolutionary they can have a revolutionary impact on the worldwide payments and international banking Both for the individuals both for the companies and also for the correspondent banks as well So the wholesale cbdc system concepts perform better than the current system That's 100 percent sure based on the conducted pilot projects and they can They can all not just only Improve the international banking system. They have other additional positive effects like Especially for the emerging countries increased trade Creator amount of national disposable income because most households can spare a lot of money when they send money to home and newly created workplaces can Happen in those countries where payment corridors are set I thank you for your attention And i'm delighted to answer all your questions If you want to know more about cbdcs cross-border cbdcs Then I check at our awarding page. We post regularly Contents and and analysis on the upcoming cbdc projects and I give the word back to Daniel Awesome, so thank you very much for this super presentation. I would propose We can have like Two three minutes for for short questions If if there's any from the audience And then I would say if we need like, you know, I mean longer discussion longer questions and answers My proposition would be to do it at the end um, so so is there any Any questions, um for this presentation, which is yeah, you know, I mean not a longer discussion, but but short and practical Let me just check check actually the The chat as well. I'm not quite sure. How do we do it? Probably I would propose that that we go through on the chat at the at the end Uh, so so I would say if you have like like a brief question for this presentation Just unmute yourself and And let's let's see. Uh, otherwise, uh, at the end of the questions and answers and discussion part We're gonna go through on the On the chat Tell us a question Yeah, sure. Hello All right. Yeah, um, thank you for the presentation. Um, Adam is really good Um, I've been following this space for a while. I've got quite of the community of individuals are interested in digital assets, but We I've been following a company called the digital pound Initiative and the digital Dollar as well and we've got I think similar foundations in Europe But how far are we away from really Getting cbd's out, um, on the retail and wholesale market Um on the retail cbdc side, thank you for the question. Um, we have, uh four live projects in the world. I mean four currently operating retail cbdc systems are in place in, uh, in the Eastern Caribbean region in the Bahamas in Nigeria and uh in Cambodia Those are performing really well the, uh, financial inclusion of Nigeria, for example Increased from, um 30x percent to to 93 percent just in the first year of The introduction of the Nigerian retail cbdc system It has a lot of proved positive effects and actually 90 percent of the central banks are, uh, engaging in the work of cbdc in some form, um In in the form of research and development to piloting to, um To issuing central bank digital currency. So on the retail side, it's more, um more solid on the wholesale side A lot of questions have to be answered before, um, going live with any wholesale cbdc system As we can see, there is a handful of pilot projects now um Half of them were already conducted and half of them are running, uh at the moment and, uh, I think that we will still need, uh Few years for the first wholesale cbdc system to be set up But it shouldn't be more than than five, six years Because of the additional gains, um, it can be also an asset for geopolitical reasons for For trade financing. Yeah, a huge ecosystem can be built around it for smart smart logistics For smart trade finance. So therefore Most central banks will have to have the opportunity to come up with the whole cbdc in the future in the near future Thank you. Thank you. Adam. I have a question too. Um My name is Koen. I'm from belgium first of all you referred to the Nigeria cbdc, but I thought it was only launched about six months ago. So I'm surprised to hear numbers that cover the whole year but um, I'm also wondering um, why do all these projects pop up in non-western countries, um It's most of the projects are related to western countries But yet the things that are put into practice Are not, uh, in europe Not in japan, not in canada They're in Nigeria. They're in verbatim where it was also down for two months. I think How does it match? How do you what is your explanation or your your view? Thank you Thank you for the question. Uh, you're a total right. I wanted to say it from last year on It's it's been launched, uh about half a year ago in 2021. So it's quite a new project. Uh, thank you for that and uh, also it's Why these cbdc projects are particularly in the developing countries, uh, it has its reason because in the european union, for example um, there are a lot of developed nations and uh, we have a target to a real-time growth settlement system, which performs really well. And we have the SIPA framework, which Helps the the euro denominated transactions to um to Happen on a almost real-time basis for lower costs like domestic costs So the I would say that the financial interest financial market infrastructure in the developed nations are quite good There is there wouldn't be such a huge improvement Between those countries or regions where the system is already developed But the system is underdeveloped. Um, the advantages are are bigger and that that is why um, some countries are I mean most of the countries who are going to issue a central language at the currency and are very in and very advanced space in it Unlocated uh in in the caribbean region in africa southeast asia Hi, adam. I have a question if I may Of course um, yeah, so I was wondering uh from the consumer perspective So from the client side, uh private individuals, how would would that work? Would that be a wallet with private keys or uh, would we would it just be transparent for the end user? Aka we have a debit card. That's it The representation where you can you can store your uh central by digital currencies can be Any one of them, you know, could be a plastic card as a wallet could could be your mobile wallet or what? I mean those projects that are already running are using Mobile wallets and also the people's bank of china Is developing an e you on e ram the bay system or cbdc system? Which is mobile wallets. So it would be The the easiest way to to reach your to access your funds your cbdc tokens if it is on your phone Okay, but in case of theft then what happens? currently, uh a bank teller Moves uh my deposits to his own his Her own uh accounts. I mean the bank will uh, Basically, uh put it back on my account, right? How does it work with cbdc's then in case it's really? It really depends on the design choice But if if you want the digital representation of cash, which is easier because most of the central banks don't want to open an account for the General public each individual in the general public. So if you if you create as a central bank a cash like digital token and if somebody steals your phone then It the same would happen as if someone stole your wallet With your cash in it you want to access that or my private key. You got it Okay, so one more question since this is a cbdc's are basically blockchain, right? They're blockchain transactions What about privacy who has access to that blockchain? So so I would I would propose, uh I'm having one presentation or about the technical aspects of cbdc So I might I might answer some of some of these technical Questions, I mean, of course, there are some some technical questions that can't be answered so easily But my suggestion would be uh to To take a look on this uh technical presentation side and then and then perhaps we can discuss better on the on the technical questions Right, if you cover the topic uh or the questions then why not? I hope it's okay Okay, so I mean basically as we as we started pretty much with the technical questions Uh, my proposition would be that I would just give like You know a perspective of an engineer of an engineer from this whole field So I'm not a cbdc expert, but I mean like you know, I mean if I just read like 20 more white papers I might became Basically kind of a kind of a cbdc expert so basically I I deal with the blockchain systems are we distributed ledger systems I'm mostly with consortium ones and what I'm going to talk about is is a little bit like the implementation challenges of of a cbdc system I won't Speak about like a real system, which is you know running We between like two central banks or or with one or two or three central banks So this is going to be like like second hand and and literature literature based experience Which is on the one hand, perhaps not the best one, but on the other hand I mean we can speak about so we don't have mda And on top we can do something which is open source development So what I'm what I'm gonna talk about is a little bit like a type of cbdc We already covered this topic, but basically more on a more on a concept So You know from an implementation challenges or from an implementation perspective Then I will just try to go a little bit into the details into some some selected requirements Like privacy for instance, and then we got basically an experimentation. It's a it's a demo project So nothing more, but I can demo it Um And then I would say at the end we can we can likely have a bigger like questions and answers and and a big discussion as well So I hope it's gonna be like half an hour or something So let me start. Um, so basically From a from an implementation perspective, uh, one big category of cbdc is the retail, of course And then I mean if we speak about retail From from technical perspective, what's what's important that we got like direct end users or retail users Uh, that's important. Uh, how the system exactly looks like, uh, I mean there are there are ways We can say like this is like a direct cbdc without any intermediary We can say that this is like, you know, I mean two stages cbdc Or this is a hybrid hybrid cbdc We might get some commercial banks In between or e-money providers or some other institutions Um, so there are many models, but I would say what's important if we got retail cbdc So if we get, you know, I mean really end users and customers at the end, uh, that's that's fundamentally You know one big category, I would say one big category of cbdc's From an implementation perspective and you know, I mean there are There are challenges That are normally retail cbdc So this is the first category. Um, the second category is like wholesale cbdc. It's like, you know more like institutional, uh between commercial banks or other institutions, uh, it's like an It's like an inter banking communication Uh perspective, uh, which has some challenges as well So, I mean if you if you ever like deliver software to to to banks, uh, it's not necessarily the easiest one But it doesn't necessarily take like, I mean so much amount of research and development than like than like You know, I mean retail cbdc It is sometimes a little bit questionable if If wholesale cbdc really has a has a market Usually, I mean it means practically that we are in one country And then usually most of the countries, you know, I mean banks are connected anyway Pretty well. Uh, so this is usually Not considered as a as a very huge market niche So the next category is something which is cross-border and Basically, it means we got like cross-border institutions cross-border commercial banks cross-border central banks, uh practically So this is like a cross-border Interbanking system, I would say Which is from a technical perspective pretty much similar, uh to a wholesale cbdc So, I mean I mean the the country region From a from a or Or if it's like about one country or several countries from a technological perspective, it's it's not much different So, I mean if you build a system if it is a wholesale or a cross-border or a cross-border wholesale I would say it's it's fundamentally in terms of technical requirements. That's one big category Um, I have have one more one more slide From a type of cbdc, which is actually not a cbdc It's a kind of tokenized commercial bank bank money It's it's kind of a cross banking communication platform Where they actually Make some use cases with tokenized money Or with tokens practically That is not issued by this by the central bank, but issued by actually by the by the banks as well This is not so much a typical use case at the moment But it's getting to be a little bit high as well And again, um, so from a technical perspective If we if we build a system that uses, you know, I mean That uses a token which we call cbdc Or if we build a system which uses kind of a token Which we don't call it cbdc because it's not issued by commerce Central banks, but it is issued by commercial banks It it doesn't differ. It's it doesn't make any any different or much different. I would say So basically like tokenized commercial bank money From a From a technological perspective. It's something in the same category as as cross border cbdc or or or ho ss cbdc simply put There's one more very innovative use case, uh, which I heard And then it's usually not covered in such presentations. I don't have slide either It was it was about from the bank for international settlements Making brainstorming if cbdc can use in the defi decentralized finance ecosystem And the idea was something in the direction, you know, I mean defi is booming as well Just the cbdc And defi is totally unregulated So like one way of making the whole ecosystem defi ecosystem more stable and perhaps more regulated Is to use cbdc instead of stable coins in the system So that was a somehow, you know, I mean pretty wide and pretty new idea And in that sense or in that use case, uh, you don't build a you don't build an inter banking system Because because with that use case practically you go to defi, uh, which is running on public blockchains So anyway From an implementation perspective, uh, I would say there are like two categories If you have retail or if you don't have retail practically in your cbdc implementation So let's see some of the requirements And if I speak about cbdc, I usually mean Something as blockchain or something as distributed ledger Or something as hybrid blockchain or or distributed ledger platform So I I usually don't mean about like, you know, classical rtgs Uh, or classical classical payment systems Um, it is actually actually throughout the world. That's that's somehow the basic idea So like a couple of years ago everybody was everybody got brainstorming on If we really need that cbdc, if so, then why don't we basically do something with the classical systems? Um, it seems at the moment At the everybody is brainstorming on on blockchain or or distributed ledger Or on kind of hybrid hybrid distributed ledger platforms So that's what I'm doing. Um, and then the first big requirement for a cbdc Is certainly speed speed and throughput So basically it looks that way that we need like from a couple of hundred transactions per second To a couple of hundred thousand uh transactions per second And it differs very much on the on the use case as well So if we have like like an inter banking, uh platform Depending I mean independently or if it's you know, like a cross-border wholesale cbdc or just a simple wholesale cbdc Or like a tokenized commercial bank money Money then like a hundred or a couple of hundred transactions per second actually can be enough Which is a good news because I mean, I mean most of the blockchain systems manage that So like, uh, you know, I mean even like a consortium ethereum manages such a transaction speed However, if we are if you have a retail use case Then it's getting tougher. Uh, and then with retail use case. It's like a couple of hundred thousand transactions per second Which is the general idea If we take a look like like open cbdc, uh, the project from from mit If i'm not mistaken, uh, they they Did With uh, with uh, it's I guess it was more than like 150, uh, thousand transactions per second And there was another architecture that managed something which is which is like one in the one in seven million if i'm if i'm not mistaken So retail cbdc staff, uh, you need a really really good throughput Uh, and basically so blockchain systems are not necessary Um, very good to manage that There are like exceptions. So like, you know, I mean, you can build up a system with our free quarter If you are not very much decentralized decentralized, you can have as many transactions as your bandwidth Um, you can have basically, uh, even with ethereum, you can do something that's Position from The stage has practically you can you can you can get as many transactions as your bandwidth So there are like hybrid ideas of of realizing such a transaction speed, but despite so I would say retail is is tough Um, and the same same is true for speed like you know, I'm I think in a retail in a retail system, uh It's rather from from a couple of seconds, uh, which is a settlement time required In a in a wholesale or cross-border wholesale, uh, a couple of 10 seconds Uh, is is is absolutely okay Probably a couple of minutes is good as well because like current systems. I mean with current systems. Uh, sometimes they They So I'm learning if it takes like minutes, uh, probably it is acceptable And of course, you need final settlement. Uh, it is Yeah, I mean it is not necessarily the uh, the standard way if you if you have like Some public blockchains, you know in a consortium setup So that's one of the one of the toughest requirement and the second one is privacy, of course And when it looks that way, uh, so privacy is is very challenging from a from a from a technical perspective Um, it's of course a question is how much privacy you need Most most Initiatives like like in china in the in the digital yuan Um, they say they don't necessarily need so much privacy Uh, but I mean all the discussions in the in the eu or or us Uh, going into the direction that we need as much privacy as as possible Uh, so practically, you know, I mean, I mean if if commercial banks see my transaction It might be okay because that's the same same system as now But you know, no other no other party should see my transactions basically And if we are in a in a wholesale or cross-border wholesale wholesale setup We got the same Same privacy requirements. So basically, I mean, I mean one bank shouldn't see the transactions of another one That's absolutely clear So privacy requirements are tough both in both in retail and in like wholesale or cross cross border field as well Um, technically, uh, what's the usual way of of doing like privacy? The classical blockchain way is like Kind of excelled on immunization That's the standard way. Uh, that's usually not enough here. Um So it's an absolute, uh Absolutely not enough. Uh, we can have like privacy based on cryptography. Um, it's like We got some encrypted data, for instance, uh on the blockchain That can be decrypted by by other parties as well And there's a lot of like like privacy research in this in this in this area Like, you know, zero knowledge proof is is hyped a little bit at the moment And it might it might solve a lot of a lot of problem But basically if you if you ask anybody From a requirement side, they say they would prefer something which is a physical privacy And physical privacy simply means That if you shouldn't see the transaction I mean, if you shouldn't see the transaction of a party then the transaction shouldn't be there So physically shouldn't be somehow replicated to that guy who shouldn't see that transaction And this is what's not exactly trivial. Uh, it's I would say privacy is the is the second most challenging requirement Of a of a cbdc There are some ideas here. Basically, uh, the ideas is somehow having like Either several blockchains or or for instance, if you're familiar with hyperledger fabric, you can do like several channels which are like several several Atomic atomic blockchains basically or having something as a state channels in state channels The privacy is pretty much guaranteed for the parties. I mean apart from the initial and the and the end transaction So there there can be done something, uh, but it's but it's tough So that's privacy uh Another requirement is is something which is which is eml key by c or identity I'm sorry that I I mix that together More like More like an engineering perspective. Uh, what I give here So basically it differs very much here if we speak about a retail system or a or a whole whole circle's border system It is because in a retail system eml key yc and and checking identity is absolutely a key component So basically, I mean There could be done something that you know, I mean banks do key yc eml As usual, but then it's pretty much You know a question that how would it work with a with a token based system like on a blockchain like with the crypto And another big discussion or another other big point is How does does identity look like? So basically if I if I sign a transaction with my wallet That would be that should work somehow from a legal perspective as an as an official signature from me And I would say this topic is Is not so simple from a technological perspective But there are initiatives for for such an integrated identity solutions With blockchain. So basically, uh, what what it is brainstorm and sometimes used in a prototype basis Is is like having the blockchain and identity stack. It's like a decentralized identity So when I identity, uh, you know, like systems as as hyper leisure indie for instance And integrating that with the payment system which might be a game blockchain So that's one direction But the toughest thing, uh, is not necessarily technical but legal So actually such a decentralized identity or self sovereign identity Is not yet regulated. Um as far as I know, it's it's coming into you But if it's gonna be like in, you know, I mean three years or five years until you can say that I In the integrated system, I signed my my transaction and that's actually an official signature from me Which is legally bonded as well. Um, so if it takes like, uh, you know, three years or five years Uh, or perhaps more. It's it's something that I'm not quite sure So but that's again, that's retail So if you have something as as a wholesale or a cross-border wholesale cbdc Then your aml kiva is your identity problems might not be so so so big Uh, so then these points might not cause such a big problems And it's because that I mean these parties these institutional parties like commercial banks are Are regulated and then we can basically assume that I mean the transactions and the actors behind the transactions are kiva seed and aml So so we can assume that there are systems independently from the blockchain Doing these regulatory staffs, which basically exist So it means, uh, having aml kiva is your identity You know, I mean processes or workflows shouldn't necessarily be directly integrated into the into your system into your cbdc system Which is a good thing because I mean it makes the I mean the work of the developer much much easier, I would say So another requirement is is something which is again pretty challenging It's called offline transaction And yeah, I mean, you know, I mean you might ask the question So so why do we need basically like digital tokens if we want to have it have it offline as well Uh, so this is again requirement, which is much tougher with retail cbdc If you have like a retail cbdc Basically the requirement if there's like an outage of the internet or or there's perhaps even an electricity outage Your your retail payment system shouldn't be down. You know, I mean even if It it can happen that there's like, you know, I mean an an internet outage for for two hours In a country in a region But basically, uh, there must be guaranteed that even in like a two three hours internet outage There's a there's a valid payment system So what you can do, of course, you can say hey, uh, we got cash anyway So let's use use cash as a backup system and it works. Uh, that can be That can be done But then I mean, you know, I mean you might raise the question if we if you have cash anyway Then why don't why do we need? Another idea would be Is somehow somehow engineer a solution for for offline transactions And so you can do like offline transactions in two ways Or you can start brainstorming on offline transactions in two different directions One is like like a theoretical Point of view that would require a lot of research and research and development But surprisingly, there might be a way to giving like Like a good enough, uh, or a somehow working systems, uh, with a classical blockchain for offline transaction And the idea is basically simple. So let's have a blockchain Let's have a wallet and let's do that we We have special special accounts, uh for for offline transactions So it means you can do offline transactions only With the help of these these accounts These accounts must be key by seat. So there must be somewhere an information That that you you use this wallet, uh with the bank or somewhere And let's have these offline offline wallets basically somehow limited So it means that you know, I mean you can you can spend like, I don't know Thousand thousand dollar or thousand euro In in every in every two hours or something So we got the limited amount. So that means, uh, let's assume that your internet goes down Which means that I mean you're you're handy your mobile phone Uh So you can do transactions with I don't like making a picture or something or somehow Because your internet is down. What's not possible is to avoid the double spending So it means if your internet is down and you use blockchain transactions Basically, you can double spend pretty easily But just imagine the situation, uh that you know, I mean your account is basically limited in the amount and it is key by seat So basically as soon as the system goes goes online again, like after two or three hours Then then the system we recognize that you that you did like a double spending offline So as basically the account is key by seat, you know, then police might ask some questions How was that basically that double spending in offline transactions? So it's a surprising requirement and it's it's very tough in retail especially But there might be some Some engineer solution, uh, that can be good enough Otherwise, it's uh, it's a very heavy research. It can be a very heavy research topic Again, this is not such a big deal. Uh, if we have like cross-border or wholesale wholesale system It's because you know, I mean, I mean most most such Such, uh, institution financial institutions might have, you know, I mean different data centers I mean the internet of these data centers is more guaranteed like like for in a in a retail use case, uh And then and then if one region goes down in terms of internet There might be a replicated data center somewhere which which still has like, you know, I mean, I mean internet up and running So it's again a very very tough retail requirement So last not last but last Actually, this is not my last last slide. It's programmability So like a couple of years ago, uh, I mean the idea was that, you know, I mean CBDC should be used just for payment Nothing else Um, but I mean, I see basically the tendance. So as we as we bring some more Um On doing the distributed ledger, uh, CBDC systems or realizing the distributed ledgers CBDC systems. I mean this programmability Is getting more and more traction. I would say so, I mean the first idea was, you know, let let let let's just use CBDC for for for for pure payment, but basically after like You know, like in three years, uh, the idea was like Okay, I mean Payment is good, but we should use kind of rather More general tokenization system where we can issue tokens. Perhaps not general tokens But just payment tokens just just CBDC tokens, but certainly we should use something which is Which is a multi token issuance token issuance platform Then we have the usual usual use cases as well It's it's usually the payment versus payment or payment versus delivery They can be again realized on a core platform level, but much easier if we if we have like, you know kind of smart contract kind of kind of transaction programmability Last but not least what's what's And it's pretty interesting use case is like is like having sustainability Properties in in CBDC because I mean money actually That's that's what brainstorm. That's what what's getting hyped And the idea is that I mean if we have like a token and this token is is actually new So it's a brand new concept. It's it's digitized money token or something similar And it is programmable then we might as they're building kind of a special special conditions special special properties that Still don't exist in like in like cash So so like one of the idea is let me just imagine a token on a blockchain And what we can do is is to to to somehow taint this token That's called a tainted token actually in classical blockchain in classical Crypto systems, but let me assume that this taint It's practically like a color color of the of the token Is kind of a sustainability property like for instance the amount of carbon or the amount of metal That was somehow accumulated With helping this money this this kind of money basically So in this sense we can speak about green money or sustainability sustainability money Or just you know, I mean Practically attaching us somehow sustainability properties or vectors to to the money itself And well as basically I mean CBDC is a new construct I mean it is sometimes brainstorm then I mean hey, why not? I mean let let me just extend it in a way Which is which is which is absolutely new and absolutely novel And for such properties, you need again programmability. You need again smart contract And there might be other other use cases as well So again, it's somehow the direction is if if you get some programmability Anyway, then then it will be used and it will be innovated pretty heavily The last but not least the exchange So it's it's a little bit contrary to the to the detail Requirements, this is this is I guess a requirement Which which is which is more on the on the cross board there Who also CBDC level is to have kind of a practically foreign exchange This is like a token exchange and it raises a lot of you know, I mean exciting questions like is it an order book like exchange Who's providing the liquidity who's benefiting this exchange like with like like with liquidity savings? Is it like centralized off chain? Is it like somehow decentralized on chain or is it a is it a hybrid hybrid blockchain? for instance um These These are the requirements that are just listed. Certainly. There are there are many other requirements as well. So, you know, like Practically you need to deliver like Software system to institutes. So there are a lot of like questions like, you know network storage Who's hosting that stuff? How do you integrate with existing systems and stuff like that? But I didn't list them actually as special requirements because they are more or less the similar as as for instance I mean has to deliver a standard program to to any institutes or a standard solution to any any any institutes There might be one exception just like interoperability with existing systems And there's one tendency which can be used it's getting to be like standard standardized So it's it's like for for like interbanking communication if I'm not mistaken One of these standardization is like iso 20 2022 Which is which is coming and then and then basically These interoperability interfaces Are getting more and more standardized. So hopefully it will be easier and easier to to integrate such systems in the existing banking infrastructure so We did some experimentation as well And this is a this is a massive experimentation project. So we basically Had like, you know, I mean three weekends with two developers including coding and So, you know, I mean don't expect much rocket science But basically this looks that way With cbdc think tank budapest and and hyper ledger budapest We started to experiment across border horses cbdc and and digitized commercial bank money use cases in an absolutely open source manner And we actually applied for hyper ledger challenge as well So that's gonna be the next step Taking look with hyper ledger challenge We have our use cases on ethereum basically And more specifically with hyper ledger bezu And this might be a surprising architecture choice But on the one hand, we have something as a cross-border and wholesale cbdc use cases For them basically like the transaction speed of bezu Might be enough. I would say it can be closed basically So you don't need like million transactions in a cross-border wholesale use case And then the other advantage is the advantages of bezu what we see That basically it's on the one hand ethereum, which is you know, I mean the the most commonly developed G on in terms of blockchain on earth So ethereum and ethereum stuff like systems it gets the most innovation on the world And on the other hand, it's hyper ledger So hyper ledger is is again very massively something which is which is a community-based stuff So, I mean it might be a surprising choice to have like hyper ledger bezu as for a As for a cbdc very experimental project But we think it might bring some some advantages in terms of open source development, basically We named our project. It's called project juno moneta It's a very fancy name. I know it's it's again more fancy than than we are at the state At the moment Basically, so we wanted to have a name which which motivates us On the one hand on the other hand, I would say, you know, I mean this this field is mostly Yeah, I mean most the cbdc advisors are And and of course blockchain developers are basically man So we wanted to bring some some You know some diversity into the space as well with at least with the with the naming So let's see a demo And what I'm gonna show Is a very simple use case We're gonna have like two central banks One is the Hungarian central bank. That's that's what your name is at the bank We're gonna have another central bank. It's people bank of china And we will have two commercial banks. One commercial bank is is otepe. That's that's a Hungarian commercial bank And then the commercial bank is olibaba, which is actually not I guess it's not commercial bank basically, but I mean, that's the That's the biggest company that we knew. So for this reason for this demonstration The second commercial bank gonna be olibaba And we just demonstrate two use cases. I hope it's still they still work one is So if one commercial bank requires actually new cbdc From the central bank and this this cbdc will be transferred directly to To a Chinese to a Chinese commercial bank So let's see how it works And again, I hope it's still working So it looks that way again. This is a very very experimentation project We got one user interface at the moment. I'm just to show it Everything is running on hyperledger Bezu So if I just take Docker, then what I'm having here Is basically Four node network Of hyperledger Bezu running on my on my computer locally It can be extended of course, but my laptop won't manage much Much complicated much more complicated network. So this is like a core Bezu installation And what we are having is some simple user interface And some some demonstration accounts as well So this is the UI. We got like the two central banks There's a lot of stuck stuff that can be configured Perhaps I'm gonna show it with the code as well, but we see the two central banks This is a special burn account for the central banks We got the two commercial banks and for two commercial banks, we got like Like there's one one general account and one administration for for that account So this is like the administration point of view and we got the we got the banking point of view as well So here down basically we see How much What is our balance basically? So this is the commercial bank one and this is commercial bank two And both are having like zero That's again, that's a Hungarian and Chinese example. So we got like Hungarian forint and uon basically as a balance So I hope it's gonna work basically because you know, I mean demo demo effect is always a little bit like like complicated But let's take a look if it works We can have a lot of sinks that can be set. So basically it's what we found out that like Like having a governance for such a system is is again challenging So, uh, we have like white list for for all the possible accounts And then and then all all accounts in every transfer in every combination Can be white listed and black listed as well Uh, but anyway, so let me just take a look. I'm gonna have I'm gonna have here one That's a commercial bank account and what I will do Is that basically I will require? Like two thousand uh, two thousand Hungarian foreign cbdc Uh for this account So as you see we got here metamask It's of course, it's a wrong choice. Uh, but again, this is just a demonstration So so on the long run, certainly we won't use metamask It's Instead what we're gonna use is is there are practically institutional accounts With uh with hyper ledger bezu. Uh, it's just for the sake of simplicity We configured the first use case with metamask, but again, it's it's not something which will Be done in production So what I'm having here now, uh, I I theoretically required some cbdc from the central bank So what I basically should do is a central bank So this is a commercial bank, but this other view should be my central bank So this is like a central bank. So as a central bank I can say hey, then I mean like two thousand cbdc to that commercial bank And let's see if it works Yeah, it's always challenging a little bit. Uh, in terms of demonstration uh, just That we got some some transactions confirmed that looks good So let me just take a look if we have really something We have just refresh And It should look that big So so my my user interface is a little buggy at the moment But I mean this balance was theoretically 2000 before I'm not quite sure why it why it should basically zero But what happened is that we got like 2000 more, uh, 2000 more, uh Hungarian cbdc, Hungarian, Hungarian foreign cbdc or tokenized Hungarian foreign So we got here like, uh from a Hungarian commercial bank side 4000 cbdc And the and the chinese commercial bank having like 2000 So let me just take a look and try to transfer, uh, some of the cbdc Uh, and basically then it should look that way That I got basically Something which is uh, which is an account, uh, and this is the account of the Chinese commercial bank. Uh, so I say transfer And if I say yes, then it should be transferred Yeah, it's uh, so it's not a one second transaction time, but it's not so bad So for uh for a wholesale use case, it might be enough So theoretically Something went wrong, but basically I should see here like 3000 After uh, I should refresh my phones are Sorry, it's just, uh Just run start to somewhere else Yeah, so probably I transferred somewhere else. But anyway, this is this is just the demonstration of effect It never works. Uh, I transferred to myself. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So let's let me just give one more one more shot I think that's should be dark And if not, basically that's gonna be the but no It looks good And let me just give one more shot And then we are done So So transaction is confirmed and again, let me just take a look Yeah, it looks that way. It looks great at the moment. Uh, just somehow the The demo effect from from my side. So at the moment, uh Thousand cbdc was transferred from the anglian commercial bank to the To the chinese commercial bank Uh, so let me just show a little bit like code So basically this is a very simple like, you know, I mean it here you We try to build up our system a little bit in a modularized way Probably in the future like having more modules And use cases as well. So these are like the use cases. This is like a whole circle's border cbdc It's again just a bunch of tokens. Nothing more This is like a digitized commercial bank money, which is again like classical So so the core logic is not too complicated. Uh, these are just just fun jibble tokens But That it was complicated is the governance We have or we started to build up a separate governance model Including like like different things like which You know, I mean, which which account should be widely state which account should be blacklisted Who's who can basically upgrade which smart contract? It's a lot of you know, it's a lot of logic It's it's not necessarily a complex research and development, but it requires You know, either a lot of options to build in or a lot of consult consultations And so this is one of the challenge the other big challenge that we faced basically You know, I mean the two big challenges for this area is like is like throughput speed and and privacy And basically the throughput Throughput and speed might be enough even with hyperledger Bezu with like 400 450 transaction per second But you know, I mean So so it can be in the range which can be accepted What's more challenging is privacy We got at the moment here one one consortium ethereum network Having all the transactions which is certainly not accepted for for such a use cases So as the next phase, for instance, one of the research and development That we faced with is to is to have like an increased privacy model In Bezu, it's such a privacy model can be done for instance by by by private groups Working with two different models With one if I'm not mistaken that called test and a notes You can do it in a way that your transactions are physically separated And you have something which is a private state Just for special private private transactions But the problem is however To maintain the ledger consistency with such a use cases So we probably go We have like different either sub blockchains or or sub private groups And we connect them with like a cross chain swaps or or cross cross channel tokens That's the more engineering way the the the more scientific ways like You know, I mean considering like like zeno knowledge group like systems and building up in the system So that was the demonstration and and some some of the conclusions what we did Anyway, uh, we are playing to register that with hyper ledger as a hyper ledger lab So uh, so you can see theoretically in a couple of weeks the whole whole source code Uh, and yeah, sure. I mean, it's an open source project So so you can you can likely contribute or you can likely I mean say if if we are So that was my presentation and I would say Let we have the let we have the questions Basically that that were planned like like like 40 minutes ago and and questions discussion brainstorming ideas Anything you have We are we are we are happy to answer If you can of course Hi, Daniel. Um, thank you for the presentation. It was very informative Um, I was just thinking on the technology because I was expecting a bit more detail on the technology side of things because I've been looking at some solutions and I know I know some some some of the pilot schemes are around the world are using hedera hedera hash um and using their their blockchain with a hash graph and um and I and I think this this talk of maybe Using say um hyper ledger with hedera So when it comes to the consensus and the transaction speed with their Hashgraph that could be a great solution for people to consider and um and also um using technology like um damel language um for for um added interoperability Operability and to connectivity Within the enterprise as well. So I don't know if you heard of those technologies or probably would have but um Was there any consideration using them and why would they would use hedera? probably over using hyper ledger best way Yeah, absolutely. Uh, thanks. Thanks for the questions. Uh, these are very very good ideas Uh, so So hedera hash hash graph is is a really very good technology. Uh, having a very very huge transactions throughput As far as I know in in terms of hyper ledger. So we wanted to stay with hyper ledger not having some Not going outside the hyper ledger Uh In terms of integrating uh integration between between hedera hash graph and hyper ledger There's there's one way where you can where you can have hyper ledger fabric With an with an ordering service, which is actually the hedera hash graph algorithm That's that's the only thing that I know Um, and basically we didn't want to use hyper ledger fabric Uh for this for this demonstration Or for this for this project for several reasons actually, uh, it's like, uh So first it doesn't have such a big community than than like ethereum Second the the evolution with like like challenging experience with fabric in in terms of like, you know Running in a clouding environment for instance and and stuff like that So basically the the the our our design our design choice was Was to use One of the one of the platforms, uh in in in in hyper ledger Which is bezu and fabric are the two choices that are like The theoretical other possibilities like like so too and and and and uh I don't know if I'm not mistaken. I'm not quite sure if the project's still live But they have much less community So basically our our this is our design decision or platform decision was Either use bezu or fabric and we have chosen we have chosen actually bezu Demo is a good initiative as well. Uh, I've found it a little bit difficult To use to I mean I mean, I mean my experience with demil but again, it might be wrong So my experience with demil uh that that you can you can write very very easily and very fast Different, you know, I mean smart contracts or or token tokenization use cases as well The the problem is that and and this and this demil code will run theoretically on almost on any platform But the point is to run your demil cloud Demil demil code in any of your platform You need to bring the demil And other blockchain platform integration up and running So like, you know, I mean if you have experience, I mean, I mean bringing bringing a hyper ledger fabric environment up and running In productive sense might be actually tough If you put like demil on top it is it is even more challenging So basically the fact that you write pretty easily code In demil that's that's right, but bringing up your whole demil integrated infrastructure Seems to be for me a little bit like, you know, I mean, that's heavy. That's my experience But again, tell me if I'm wrong You know, I I don't don't we don't get this on point in the or there's no hard feeling or or anything Thank you. Thank you for that. I think your points on uh, both daml and why you chose base who are excellent I think daml is one option if you're looking at what I call a super Platform if you will that sits above Blockchain's I wouldn't call it later too, but I'll call it a higher level platform And the other option of course is firefly to take a look at instead of daml That's one and then you're right about the choices on Uh, I think your choices on why you chose base who especially for this particular application use case make a lot of sense I think much like a lot of the experience I have when you actually Make a quote production design decisions. You can revisit those So I think certainly on the basis side, you're going to look and say well, let's see how Base who will work for this application use case after the merge occurs not now Um, but hopefully it'll be different. I'll call it the experience would be different Positive I'll say and then the other side is fabric itself is actually quite flexible as you pointed out with the architectural ability to use lots of different I'll quote services have for storage Hash graph would be one of the options as well and there's been a lot of experimentation on that side So I think from a scalability perspective After the merge happens The fabric is still a viable Option to take a look at there and certainly firefly if you're going to look at something To in a sense provide an application framework That's easier than coding at the basic level or the Fabric level for sure But great great presentation and really well done demo Appreciate it Sorry, sorry Filled out. There's a leg uh leg back. Sorry. Can you hear me guys? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we can Oh, hello. Hello. Um, well, thank you very much for the speech I'm I'm a journalist in specific here, which is one of the largest tech news website in china and currently I'm working on some like Articles about cbdc and well my question may be not that technical but well, I really want to know that was the current market size for the cbdc drt companies and How do you calculate that? Thank you All right it's your question regarding to The the market capitalization of those companies who provide cbdc payment marketing for sexual solutions like consensus are three G plus the other handful of companies Because that can be easily Unsaught based on the yes Yes, thank you Uh, all right. So, um, I would highlight just a few of them um Gizeke plus deviant or g plus plus d is a germany many many space down payment Infrastructure provider company and they are developing filial, which is a cbdc platform And they have I believe two billion euro revenue um, I would calculate that the the actual Entry price value of the company by discounted cash flow method Uh, that's that's basically what I would use Um, the company itself is I think it has around 10 000 employees. Also, there is consensus Uh, consensus has a quorum solution. They are dc based company Established around about eight years ago or so they have I think 500 employees And also are free in a new york-based Financial innovation firm and they have They have a funding they had a funding ground and I think that they are Had a funding of a hundred and hundred and five million u.s. Dollars But for enterprise value, I would take a look at each and every company's revenue and use of discounted cash flow method Okay, thank you so much I hope I could have um, I don't have the exact numbers at hand, but it but they can be calculated uh, so Is there is there any any any questions or comments live? uh Because otherwise I would just read through the chat and and I would just read through the questions Uh, and we're gonna try to answer them There are like 29 new messages So if you if you have like like a question, uh, just just feel free to to interrupt me Uh, I'm new to yourself and just just just ask Otherwise, I would just try to try to check the check the check check questions and and try to answer them So one question is how can I partner and connect my fintech with cvdc Uh Yeah, I would say it's uh, it's a tough question because I mean it depends If if you're if your country or region has has kind of a cvdc project So if so it might be easy if if not Then then then it might not it might be not so easy So you can do something as sv. So basically We don't have like, you know, I mean, I mean cvdc project live at the moment, but we Expect somehow that like in, you know, three or five years, uh, we're gonna have cvdc around us And prepare for that even practically But also you can be a payment service provider Sorry, sorry, just to add one thing to the answer if you're a payment service provider, you can be a third party Uh member of the payment system Of the jurisdiction in which cvdc is implemented and you can handle cvdc transactions But that depends on the the technical or design choice Of of the central bank, which is which intends to to to issue cvdc So it really depends on the jurisdiction Again, if you if you have questions, uh Without the chat just just unmute yourself and and ask ask it Yes, this is uh, this is luther midday. I have a question, you know, when with with the interaction of cvdc, there's always the concern around Um loss of privacy, right? Like, you know, it's the government Or the central authority who is issuing the cvdc now has a lot more control and utility In with the cvdc so they can control the rates negative rates utility how how fast you're using where you're using What are some of the I mean that's With increased focus on privacy data privacy in general. How how are governments ever planning on balancing Introducing cvdc's and while still allowing their citizens or the users to have privacy that they You know originally had with the cash, etc Yeah, so so that's a good question. Yeah, again, so privacy is one of the toughest toughest question and and toughest uh toughest uh requirement I would say uh and especially in in retail uh in retail you know, I mean I mean as far as I know especially in the us for instance, uh, there's there's like a kind of document, uh, which Which is really a public discussion on cvdc Uh, instead of a specific design Covering exactly such a topics It is something which is which is heavily discussed as far as I know by the Like by the european central bank as well and there's there's no good answer especially Especially in terms of of retail cvdc So, I mean, I mean classical blockchain systems don't provide much privacy There might come something so from a technical perspective What I can imagine is that You take you take the technology from a privacy coin There are good privacy coins basically And you bring it actually private Or not private but to a consortium setup and you keep I see the accounts So then practically you have you have more or less the same system as As cash at the moment. Uh, so it means that that But if you build up the system in such a way So I think it it can be done. Uh, it's it can be done almost in a way as as cash Again with the technology behind privacy coins Which is like mostly zero knowledge proof, which is which is hyped at the moment But you know, like there are in signatures and stuff like that But it's uh, it's a tough research and and development topic Just do it to to that answer one more thing, uh, of course in case of false cvdc They the transactions to some extent they have to be monitored because of the Because the governments want to avoid terrorist financing or money laundering activities In case of free the cvdc's like like daniel said There are some options in which transactions can be conducted anonymously And there are some recommend there is no good answer, but there are some recommendations like the one Um shared by the european central bank They they think that they uh, two tier remuneration should be used. Um, in case of free the cvdc's Which means that to a certain amount, um, you will have A positive or zero interest rate on your cvdc's on your retail cvdc tokens And after that you'll have a negative interest rate. Uh, so they basically want to avoid that Uh, that um the The two-tier banking system, uh collapses if most of the deposits will be transferred into retail cvdc tokens And we need the two-tier banking system to finance our economies, um And um and provide credit. So therefore there should be a cap Um of holdable retail cvdc. Either it is a hard cap Like they say a limit or they Set a negative interest rate after, you know, 300 euros 400 euros or so. It really depends on the jurisdiction But under that you can you can use uh anonymously and after that They will have some monitoring authority Of the transaction to move too much money Now that makes sense. Thank you guys so much. This has really been really good Um, so I would just just follow some of the the questions if it's okay It's like wouldn't be remedy reminisce be a sound reason for for retail cvdc I could be, uh I think for whole cvdc I mean it is Yeah, it's rather for wholesale cvdc actually. Yeah So just just disintermediating Some of the complexity with the current banks is banking system because retail cvdc is yeah It's it's again for for one one region basically The numbers one comment if if if we are spreading. I'm sorry Just go ahead adam also also the numbers supported that um, it's it's rather for the whole cvdc is because um if you think about the transaction cost then Then a 300 and a 51 billion us dollars worth of revenue comes from transaction costs for banks and there are about 500 and 20 billion us dollars inbound remittances for worldwide from the countries I don't mean that most that 100 of the transition costs come from the inbound remittances, but also part of the The transition cost affect the inbound remittances. They can be as high as five percent and those Those costs can be mitigated by the introduction of a whole cvdc and It's a supporting argument for whole cvdc's actually Yeah There's there's one comment if we are spreading like the message of of cashless society so that there's a full political control of people Uh, so honestly, we we mostly focus on on wholesale and cross-border wholesale cvdc Uh, it is because I mean retail is complicated even even in a political sense uh, but basically So we believe that you know, I mean I mean retail cvdc will work if the society accepts That's what we believe So it means that if the privacy guarantees are are not enough in a in a in a society for a for retail cvdc It can't be used. So it's uh, then it's a bad bad use case. So yeah I hope that answers that point Okay, it's like vaccination Yeah, it's again, it's on the it's on the same For the for the for the same same same point Yeah, it's again, uh, there's a lot of comments on on on like, uh You know if if the that's the risk of of retail cvdc Having like to to be controlled from From institutions, um That's you know, I mean that is not desired to have control But again, we basically believe again. So firstly, we mostly focus on wholesale and and and and and not on retail cvdc uh Look him again for the same reason Has got a lot of like general discussions, but basically, uh, we believe that, you know, so retail cvdc Can be introduced in a way that there's there's a massive Dialogue and consultation with with actually with the you know with the end users with the customers With the society And that should include Uh, the the necessary or acceptable privacy level the necessary or acceptable You know control of tokens or or accounts or or or anything So we believe that only after such a discussion and acceptance Is the good way to to introduce like retail cvdc But basically i'm a technical guy, so it's no i mean it's just uh this question is like too political for me So it's a game question Hi, hi daniel Yeah, hi. Hi, so I just want to ask a general tokenization question because um I'm very much interested in providing the service for tokenization of assets And so how does one engage with hyperlegio in a sense across their suite? When it comes to tokenization say of property or or other types of commodities with Your technology, um Because i'm looking to partner up with the providers To to offer that kind of service yeah, it's sure, uh So it's it's not exactly a cvdc use case, I would say but no it's like It's like a general tokenization use case It's it's it's the question is If you want to tokenize on a public ledger or or on a consortium one Because it looks that way that hyper ledger projects mostly focus on on consortium blockchain solutions Which means that that you don't necessarily have the private the public blockchain behind there's one exception actually with hyper ledger bezu So so consortium edges mean something that you got the institutions institutions having your Your consortium or private blockchain infrastructure up and running and your use case running on top Uh, that's what that's what mostly most of the hyper ledger project does or do uh So so that's the first question if if if your use case requires Rather consortium blockchain tokenization or is it something which is which is you know, I mean public Ethereum solana I don't know tokenization Okay, um, and I mean depending on that. Yeah, we might as well Pro uh Propose you some some providers, uh, or some companies are dealing dealing with such a things if if that's the question Okay, okay. I'll I'll connect with you on LinkedIn. Yeah. Yeah, just just just meet me on LinkedIn. Actually, uh, if you have if you have such a questions Okay, thank you So there's a lot of discussion. I'm not quite sure if there's you know, like Like explicit questions. So there's a question. Generally, will these slides be uploaded and available some somewhere Sure. Uh, so I mean the recording will be available on youtube We will we will link actually the slides Under under the youtube recording and we will we will link these slides in meet up as well probably I will have I will have Access for hyper ledger budapest, but I think David David will send it in an email is email as well if it is requirement Sure, I can do that Daniela. We can add it to the description on youtube I don't know which one is Adam or if you if you like taking a look of of jet You can have you can some some questions as well Sure, sure, of course. We have a question regarding is bitcoin a cbdc? Because like El Salvador introduced bitcoin as a legal tender No bitcoin and none of the cryptocurrencies are central by digital currencies because they have to be issued by central banks and bitcoin is not issued by a central bank um all cryptocurrencies can be legal tender if if the central bank of the country decides so there is Nothing that that would prevent this from happening like in the case of El Salvador It's a jurisdictional question Next question Given the projects many western countries doesn't make sense to see the cbdc projects pop up in non-western countries um Not actually not all of the projects are in most of the wholesale projects are in between developing and developed countries Andrea central bank digital currency pilot projects are mostly in developing countries um So so there are both sides included. I mean both development and development nations are engaging in a work of cbdc um Sorry, Dania, would you like to say something? Yeah, yeah, um, let me let me have just just one one question I'm more from a from a technological perspective It's like does basically work on layer two or roll up and and somehow other So not that not that I know but I mean so one of the motivation one of the surprising motivation of starting with Bezu Is that on a public hyper on a public ethereum world? Basically, I mean, there's a lot of innovation. So that field is innovating probably the fastest in the blockchain world including layer two solutions like like rollups optimistic rollups zk rollups zero knowledge proofs in ERC ERC 20 tokens and so on and then As basically bezu is an ethereum based tech There might be a good chance that these innovations can be actually Used in in bezu as well With some modification or or or with slight modification So that was for instance one of the idea behind behind the choice of of bezu Even if it's you know, it's a surprising I I do a very it's it's not it's not typical Actually, there's there's one project that uses bezu or or consortium ethereum That's the m bridge if I'm if I'm not mistaken. So it's not so surprising perhaps a choice, but Yes, so so you're right basically that that most of the classical commercial bank applications Or I mean such initiatives not classical but such initiatives running on on our free corda Or or rather rather with them and with kind of I don't know which integration So that's that's a surprising might be a surprising. Yeah architecture or platform choice Right. Do we have any live questions? Yeah, I'm just checking actually There's one question. How can I participate in the integration? I'm not quite sure what you mean, but I mean the plan is that we start basically a hyper ledger lab You can find basically the hyper ledger So if you just say look that hyper ledger labs Just my band this is a little bit slow with all of the stuffs open But if you just go to hyper ledger labs, we gotta be here like I think in a couple of weeks So you can take a look on the code and basically as as it is an open source initiative You can you can likely participate Yeah, so I almost finished the chat. Uh, so my question is Is there any more questions? Uh, comments Discussion points or or anything That you want to discuss If if there isn't uh, then I would say that was the Yeah, that was our presentation demonstration discussion and basically the hyper ledger meetup for today So I would like to thank you very much for your for your attention Uh, I would like to thank you very much for for your contribution as well. I think there was a lot of a lot of contribution And I would like to thank you very much. Uh for Adam the the perfect presentation as well. Uh Thank you for your attention So thank you very much again, and then perhaps see you next time or as soon as we have like a public rapport then Then see you in the configurist perhaps Thanks again adam and daniel appreciate it. Thanks everyone. Thanks. Bye