 Okay everybody saw me press the button Kevin can't tell me off afterwards if I've done it wrong. Okay so thank you for coming to the Dries Q&A. Can you hear me okay? Oh that's good. Can we hear Dries? That's good. Can you hear me? Okay I'm Rachel Larson from the Dribble Association and I seem to have done this session at DribbleCon a few times now. I'm starting to get into the flow a bit. So I wanted to try and ask some questions. Ask some sort of fun ones. Ask some hard-hitting ones and see how we go. But mainly all of the questions are driven by you the audience and I hope that I can move around the screen and ask people in the room to stand up and ask their question when it comes on the list. If that's possible if you don't want to just let me know and I'll ask it for you. Okay so they're all behind us and I'll choose them as we go. I can see them. I don't know what they are. Okay so I wanted to start off with something else. So some weeks ago you came home from the office after having had quite a big day at the office at Aquia. You had managed to secure a deal selling a major part of Aquia to Vistra. They're massive investment there. Quite a big day. You came home and apparently you ordered a Chinese takeaway and collapsed on the sofa. Yeah I'm that old. So the question on my lips and probably everybody else's is what did you have? So I'll answer the question in a second. So I actually live in my apartment which is it takes me an hour and 20 minutes to get home from Aquia which is in Boston in the city. So by the time I get home on like long days I'm just like ready to like you know sit down and anyway so I've been for takeout food with Chinese food. I always order the same thing. It's pretty boring but it's the fried rice with vegetables and then there's a spicy chicken and they add a lot of chili pepper stew. It's like really nice and spicy and I can eat it for two days actually. So much food that I eat it for two days in a row. So that's what I did. It's delicious. It's easy. Okay. Not healthy. Actually I'm going to ask another one that was on here and in fact actually I think we've had this before which was um we have the imami demo. Have you cooked anything on the imami demo? No but I want to actually I want some of my photos in the imami demo and so first I need to help cook something. Usually the sushi at home I'll be honest like Vanessa and I be cooked together quite a bit but she's definitely the main chef and I'm the sushi so I do cutting and dishes and all the kind of stuff but um we actually set up to create a cookbook. It's one of our goals is to because I love photography like making photos or taking photos of things and so one of our goals is to make a cookbook and to publish it but just for friends and family and publishing but maybe I can contribute a recipe. Yeah that would be kind of cool. Yeah we did. Have they also contributed in Spanish Yeah it will be a little bit harder for me then. Can get some help with that. Yeah so jumping back a little bit um so we've talked about food which is always close to my heart but thinking back to acquisitions how do you feel about Adobe's acquisition of Magento? Um it's a while ago um I think it's I mean at the time I wrote a long blog post about it I'm not sure if you saw it or not but um it's a bit of a strange acquisition for me because there's enterprise focused on Magento as sort of mid-market. They historically have the DNA of kind of screwing up open source doing a little bit. Adobe said I was a little bit skeptical about what would happen with Magento and still not entirely clear to me how Magento is doing as part of Adobe. You guys made a better finger on the pulse there but I thought it was a little bit unusual um like for me the e-commerce space maybe more broadly is an interesting space because there's so many different systems and so many different needs and there's not really one e-commerce platform that you could acquire as Adobe that would kind of fill all the needs of all of the e-commerce situations so I'm not sure I'm a I'm a big believer in sort of the the one e-commerce platform to rule them all um and so I think of Magento as great for like mid-market related things but like some very large customers of like such unique needs like um very deep point of sale integration like if you have a lot of physical stores you want your what is called your cashier system to be integrated all your warehouses your fulfillment centers like Magento to the best of my knowledge isn't really the best solution for these very complex situations which I would imagine are a lot of Adobe's customers so um I don't know and it's stuff because by buying actually one of the things that we saw at Acquia is like the data announced the acquisition of Magento like almost every independent e-commerce vendor knocked on our door and they said hey we would like to have a strategic partnership with you because like we don't want to work with Adobe anymore and they just bought Magento and so why would we try and work with Adobe because we're probably gonna try and you know replace us eventually with Magento and so it's been interesting actually like I feel like um I mean I'm putting my head on here but like a lot of our competitors side core Adobe they all have a made of commerce solution and in a way um you know Drupal while we have the Drupal commerce project it doesn't have it it's like I think it's perceived by one of these commerce vendors as being sort of like a neutral platform that they can really partner with which I think is it's pretty exciting for Drupal and that's what we see too like I know Drupal sites that are integrated with hybrids and ATG and IBM WebSphere commerce and Salesforce commerce cloud and obviously Magento too elastic path commerce tools like Drupal has all of these integrations you know and that's a real strength and so kind of giving a long-winded answer here about like the acquisition of Magento by Adobe actually could be good for Drupal you know. It's funny actually Adobe seems to be coming up a lot in the questions that are posted and I'm assuming Null isn't actually somebody's name here. People are asking our Null is asking how would you sell Drupal in comparison to Adobe experience manager? Key selling point to that type of thing. Yeah I mean I think I would highlight the open source nature of Drupal um what that means right open source is just that but open source down valve there's a thriving community and a thriving community results in a lot of innovation modules themes integrations and I think that's a real selling point and so you combine these benefits of open source all the way from you're not shackled by a proprietary vendor and the APIs that they provide you can do whatever you dream actually you can implement with Drupal and you can do it faster and you can do it with Adobe oh it's getting cozy and um then you can really benefit from sort of our collective efforts as a community so it's cheaper it's faster it's better um you know I think on the CMS side there's very little um like it's it's easy to beat Adobe just on the experience manager side I think the only thing that could be better is the usability of of Drupal but usually when Adobe wins it's because they've come they've like a bigger sweep of products that's where they have the upper hand I would say. So talking to bigger suites at top of products you can't speak today. Given Drupal's move towards a better beginner experience low code or no code things like cohesion DX this is deepens question and I should have asked if he was here I do apologize you know. How do you see the Drupal workforce us? How do you see the workforce and the agency ecosystem evolving? That's a great question and by the way there's a few seats in the front if anyone wants to come up and sit down you don't have to um but um I mean first of all you know this is a multi decade trend you move to low code no code I mean it's nothing new and whether Drupal gets into it or not it's almost irrelevant for how um sort of the the ecosystem will evolve. You think about it you know go back in time 10 years content management systems are a lot more manual today um you know there's a lot more drag and drop there's a lot more busy week which is what people usually um refer to when they say low code no code and it's really what customers want but users want right they want to do more with less they want to go faster they want to you know create these pages landing pages what have you they want to do it really quickly so um looking at it from the other way it's like we have to do that like if we if we don't become more low code no code we're going to lose and so there's actually no choice for us to invest in those things in my mind and yes as a result you know how we work um and what we do for our customers will evolve and change but that's been evolving and changing for like 20 years right like the original web developer literally wrote html in a text file not fdp did right yeah just straight up fdp into a server and that was building a website and so in many ways today there's already a lot more low code no code compared to 10 years and 20 years ago and then just going to accelerate and just like we're not doing these things anymore like fdp today hopefully um maybe some of us still um i think our role will evolve and we'll do more complex things and different kinds of things and i see what i what i see a lot of what i see a lot more of is these complex integrations like again 10 years ago a website was a standalone application you know didn't really integrate with much else and today it's not unusual to see a website the drupal site integrated with 10 systems from email marketing systems to support systems to promise systems like we talked about to see event systems to all these things cds for performance and so i think you'll see the role of agencies and drupal shops evolving like you know building bigger marketing platforms almost versus just simple websites and doing a lot of work around integrations and then hopefully the marketers and the content creators can just you know create pages themselves so that we don't have to do it anymore so anyway long answer again but it's like you know world is changing we don't have this and we better change with this world so be my mind that's what we're doing like we're investing heavily in this and i showed that a little bit yesterday my keynote all the way from the layer builder initiative the media initiatives we're really trying to make drupal more low code especially for the non-developers it's funny actually it follows quite nicely on to the next question in terms of so many that are quite a big portion proportion of the current and proposed initiatives that are based around the user experience which is great how can we look to increase the size of our user experience community to help build more momentum that gets in bodies yeah it's interesting like it's a hard question and we've struggled with this for a long time because if you think about the drupal ecosystem a lot of you you work at digital agencies or drupal shops and design and user experience is often like a core competency what you do what you do for a lot of your customers i mean it depends on on the organization but often and somehow we haven't managed to get more of those people to contribute um and yeah i don't know i think you know i think we need to help foster that community i think maybe we can provide more structure around it um and you know the same is true like for other areas like marketing i know it's a little bit of a jump but like if you think about what we did with developers it's amazing it's unbelievable that we managed to get 10 000 developers to collaborate on a piece of software like think about that like and we do it through online through tools and issue queues and we've all these processes and you know systems and testing systems like it's pretty remarkable it's like a microsoft scale software development right um but then somehow we aren't able to replicate that in in sort of adjacent um you know um disciplines whether it's marketing like why can't we all collaborate on marketing like imagine we built those systems just like we did for developers or imagine to answer your question we built the systems to get hundreds of user experience people to to really collaborate and come together and we'd be pretty magical i hope we're back in the cell on that now things like the pitch deck and no we're starting to get better we launched the promo dribble initiative a while ago and we created a space for people to come together that's more on the marketing side but i think it's a huge opportunity for us to um kind of think about how do we set up the same sort of systems optimized for these audiences to really collaborate and um yeah that's an area where we can we should definitely invest yeah we have a very yeah like yeah we are very technical and i i take a lot of the belief for that because in our dribble was started by developers for developers yeah literally um and you know i think that's deep in our dna right so we need to break out of that and we need to find ways to get um replicate our successes outside of just the developer world and we should think about tooling you know i don't know what the best tool is for this but um i'm sure there's tools that designers want to use and that we can scale to hundreds of designers i don't know but um i'm not a designer myself but for those of you in the room if you have ideas uh we'd love to learn more about them yeah i think actually this next question from patrick nox kind of helps solidify that a little bit it's patrick here oh hi are you okay if i read it out rather than a little crawling in the cross uh what is the biggest roadblock that you see right now um rather than if it's not something currently something historically roadblock to success for dribble yeah i think success i think that's what you mean yeah at the end of the day for me everything comes down to people um you know having the right people part of our community and having them in the right seats where they can really drive change um and so if i think about how do we grow how do we get better it's about it's really all about people um more diverse people you know representation from different um you know groups and geographies and personas you know like we just talked about and then really empowering them to to become leaders in our community and to set up the systems and the processes to help to attract others to contribute as well itself um you know something that i'm very passionate about um you know i wrote this super long blog post that i mentioned in my keynote about makers and makers but it's you know i articulated in that post really well but i think it's funny open source it's like 20 years old and we know how to collaborate on codes um but we haven't really figured out how to scale open source beyond just development and we haven't really figured out how to make it truly sustainable in a healthy way in like and when i say truly sustainable in a healthy way i'm thinking like how do we make sure that open source and drupal is around in 50 years in 100 years and how do we make sure that we're winning right and winning in my mind means going from maybe 40 full-time contributors to 400 full-time contributors right because um you know that's what we're competing against often it's like these very large organizations and they're getting larger not smaller so that's a hard problem and i think for open source in general probably the biggest thing to figure out in the next five years and there's obviously a lot of heated discussions around around that topic not necessarily in drupal but like around other open source organizations and companies changing their license and you know doing all these things they're trying to figure out the model right the the business model of open source um and i don't mean that just in a commercial sense but like the sustainability model of open source is so important to figure out and like in my mind so many big things could be solved with open source like there is a whole category of huge problems in the world that no commercial entity or no no corporate organization will ever have inspired to solve literally like yeah there's so many examples like like we really need to reinvent parts of the web from your mind to be you know more open um and to really keep it independent and to make it better and like no company is going to wake up in the morning and say hey let's rebuild this thing and we're only going to do that through open source right that's how we built the infrastructure of the web and um but that's also why we need to be able to innovate really efficiently and in a healthy way in a sustainable way um because our future depends on it in my mind and i know that's a little bit more broadly but the same thing applies to Drupal right like how do we make the Drupal project very sustainable very diverse the representation from everyone not just developers and i'll love that topic but it's a tough one it's a hard problem to solve obviously absolutely but it's all about people as well it's very much about people so Matthew Ares has asked a question about what kind of metrics do you think that we should gather and how should we weigh contributions in the new community recognition program because that's one of the things that we do need today to keep those people with us um i mean i think first of all there's many ways to contribute and we need to recognize all of the ways people can contribute so obviously there's code but there's also design user experience testing documentation writing event organizing serving on local boards of associations all around the world to me there's probably a hundred ways to contribute and and the credit system um that we have obviously has been very biased towards code contributions and so we're actively expanding that and and actually groups in the community are starting to use a credit system for non-code contribution as well so some of the events um like Drupal Europe as an example last year they started giving each other credit uh in issues on Drupal.org for non-engineering work if you will and so that's really awesome to see that we're starting to to expand all of those things so finding ways to really track everything that we do and then recognize the contribution is really important because we often incentivize us people to contribute right like there's a lot of different reasons why people do what they do but recognition and feeling a sense of of sort of yeah recognition is important for for many not saying it's important for all but being able to do that is this key um and so I mean I think again this is a great example for Drupal is leading there's literally no other open source project that has a credit system like us and um it's not perfect but we're like trailblazers right like we're absolutely paving the path and others are looking at us I'm like how are you guys doing is it's amazing how like the number of emails that I get from people asking like how did Drupal manage so many people to contribute you know we're in a very special situation and I think we can extend that leadership and so that's why this committee I think is so so exciting because they're gonna like take that work that we did with that early experimentation work almost and hopefully extend it to be a much bigger program a more well-rounded program and yeah and then I think we can experiment with that too and we can we can dial it as needed for example if we can use credits to basically promote people or organizations we can say you know what fixing critical bugs is a little bit more important than fixing non-critical bugs and so we create a little bit more visibility for that or we can say yeah we really need more user experience people we can say wow usability contributions are maybe valued more than these other kinds of contributions by the credit system right and so it actually could be a pretty interesting tool to drive the project to where it needs to go cool it's funny actually because that I I know they've been in the Drupalcon EUR project on Drupal.org they've been recording issues and credits for virtually everything speakers volunteers and everyone's been doing here and it's been marvellous even to the point where I've been asked after this session if anybody who has asked a question I have an issue in the issue queue that we can credit you for asking the question in this room it's brilliant so that's fantastic see me afterwards and you did talk about how when we're talking about people we need the wise variety of people from all around the world from all the different backgrounds and we do talk and we have talked in in Druisness before and in these sessions before about how DNA is important to the growth of Drupal it's absolutely essential should it be an official initiative would that get more people in the room and more people invested in the concept it's interesting yeah the question is should it be an official initiative is that a question? I'm not sure I know the answer to that I mean I think first of all I think it's really important that we focus on this and that we should have programs and initiatives around it and it's been really nice to see the leadership of the DD19 over the years to really push different initiatives and programs and even push me to do more things and so I think a lot of things are working and I think we're getting better and supported by data for example where we see that the diversity gets better over time I mean it's still not great there's still a lot of work left to be done but we are making progress and I think we're making progress at the Drupal Collins and how we do speaker selection we make progress on Drupal.org and how we you know capture information about people I mean I think we're working on a lot of great things and so I want to do more of that for sure then the question is should it be an official initiative or not I think if it gets us if it allows us to make more progress faster than yes yeah I'm trying to think how making it official would give it more more of that maybe would help yeah yeah it's how we can see that actually achieving a specific goal and then that makes it worthwhile thanks Alana for the question because I forgot to read out your name and I've got an anonymous one here I want to flip back to Drupal for a second and the actual product sure and thinking about that beginner experience as well so Drupal's been at the top on near the top of the most dreaded web framework according to Stack Overflow surveys what are we going to do about that so you need to check it initially the fact that we're on that list means everybody knows us but the funny thing actually if you look at that list it's been a while since I looked but like we're on the most dreaded list but we're also on the most loved list by the way so it's like you know people love us as well as dread us um and so I don't know I think it's a compliment to Drupal honestly it wasn't joking um the fact that we're among those other projects on that list is pretty remarkable um and other things that are on the dreaded lists are like I don't forget what it was but like I thought even Linux was on that list and it's like really so I find that list I don't know just a list of me you know I think we're doing amazing things and people are doing great things with Drupal and yeah it's not for everyone I think I think the learning curve as I mentioned is a big part of that like you know I mean people I'll say all the time that the first impression matters and I think Drupal's first impression could be a lot better and so I'm sure there's millions of web developers actually millions that have tried Drupal and they've given up and those are probably many of the people that would say you know you're on the dreaded list because I couldn't figure it out and they blame Drupal for that right like the five minute rule you play with the five minutes and you make a large impression in that time exactly so I mean I think it just speaks to it just makes me more convinced that we need to do the things that I proposed we should do so I'm not worried about these lists at all like we shouldn't doubt what we do because of lists like that like we're growing or healthy so we do see things come up on occasions that and projects that come almost sideways that help try to help with some things. Seth raised a question around the Gutenberg project and what your thoughts on Gutenberg as an editor in terms of improving the experience with beginners to Drupal but also how would it fit into the layout further? Actually there's a great question I'm not an expert on Gutenberg by the way just so you know or wordpress but I mean I think there's good things about it and I think there's some things that maybe aren't great about it so I mean I think what I like about it is that it's actually easy to use it's easy people can go pages fairly quickly and we should we should think about what elements of that can we take and implement in Drupal but then there's also things I do that we do way better than they do in my mind like accessibility being one of them but also like creating reusable templates pages like Gutenberg is probably good for one of landing pages but like in case of Drupal where sometimes you have hundreds of thousands of product pages let's say on your website or tens of thousands of product pages you need to create not one page but you need to create a product template page and that's some of the things that we really do that relative to to Gutenberg right so then the question is what elements of Gutenberg can we take and apply to the layout builder and I think that's what the layout builder theme has been doing like they've really started to look at the user experience of the layout builder and today I didn't really talk about it in my keynote because I've covered that in the past but the last time I covered it in my keynote layout builder landed in court and the layout builder was primarily used for laying out let's say content types right and you know we did some users testing on that as well and people were like wow it's a little bit confusing because I won't actually change the menu too and I want to maybe drag my foot or somewhere else but it was only you can only use the layout builder for like a section of the page not the whole page and so now the layout builder team has been doing a lot of work on basically taking over the whole page with layout builder right and so you can literally lay out the whole page and they're doing that in in sort of the Drupal way where it can be templated and all of these things so when we're making usability improvements do it too so I think we're getting better and better a lot of that is happening in in concrete today and hopefully that will make it make its way into court so I think we're doing the right things and then you know Gutenberg in Drupal I suppose actually talking to them last night the team forgot the name of their company right now Is that it again? Frontcom Yes Frontcom yeah so it's an organization I think in Sweden or something and I'm already excited Norway yeah they've been basically working on making sure Gutenberg works in Drupal and they've been maintaining that for quite a while and they were saying they do new releases every two weeks and so it seems like that's could be a pretty mature solution actually so it's definitely I want to go home and check it out again okay because for some use cases that might be great you know I think I think if you have a website with 10 pages it's fine with every pages and it was no flake page right versus if you have 10,000 pages you may need a little bit more templating but it could be a very good solution for Drupal for certain use cases and absolutely and that's why we why we benefit from being so flexible and Matt Malawi baby he texts me once in a while and he would really love us to use Gutenberg I was like he's he built it in a way that should be CMS agnostic yeah and like he's eager for other CMSs to to adopt it like we're doing so you know it's open source at its best right and yeah so I'm going to go a bit kind of offline here and combine two questions together looking into the future so something here about Drupal in schools from Jean Bowdoin if he's in the road bye bye we were trying to meet earlier we missed each other so couldn't see me afterwards because I'm trying to find you Drupal in schools is there a school or teacher out there using Drupal to teach web creation to the kids that are actually and combine that and look into the future why won't we be in 2025-2030 and how does that relate to your education I think it's a great question um I mean first of all there are different professors that I know of that teach Drupal as part of their curriculum um actually one of them was on our board some year very many teachers for them is at San Francisco University or something you know he teaches Drupal at the university but there's definitely others as well and so they I think there's been even some collaboration around curriculum too so I don't know the details of that but it's maybe worth checking out and I think I think it's great when people teach Drupal in schools because obviously it allows students to discover Drupal in a very structured way and I would imagine they come out being excited about Drupal because again this learning curve thing you know I imagine you have to get over a learning curve to pass and so I think teaching that to students is this great way to get um you know I love it when people in the beginning of their career join the project there's often a level of energy and excitement and so yeah finding these you know bringing students or you know freshly created people into the project is exciting to me yeah so sticking on a few a theme of future how do you see your role and Acreus role changing in the community you know now we've had this new acquisition yeah I don't think that will change much um sort of so I don't know if everybody will see this news or not but like uh um you know Acreus basically received a major investment from a new investor and you know a lot of that is a rotation of old investors to be honest like some of our early investors have been in the company for 12 years and so at some point they want to return the money to their investors their LPs it's called and so a lot of that is a you know kind of like old investors going out and having a successful exit and a new investor coming in and what's good about that is that usually I mean always actually these new investors have a completely fresh time horizon right like they don't need to return the money for some time and they also bring a unique skill set like the early stage investors at Acreus they were specialized in growing you know startups from zero to 100 million or something right and so now we have investors that are specialized in growing us to a billion dollars I don't know we'll see um and that's great they also have deeper pockets than the early stage investors like the our early stage investors they may have a 50 million dollar fund 50 million dollars that they need to spread over 10 companies or something these guys have billions of dollars um and you know when they you know when they when they want to invest actually spend a lot of time with them they love our strategy what we're doing they love Drupal they obviously are not dumb they understand that like 95 percent of Acreus customers rely on Drupal and so they really are excited about that um and you know they would love to keep investing in Drupal and invest more in Drupal um so I think it's great because Acreus remains um independent Acreus will be Acreus our strategy remains unchanged my role will remain unchanged and um we we get access to more capital which will allow us to hopefully um you know do more great things and I think the market in general has been interesting um like you know there's the big player like I mean if you think about the market there's not a lot of small players that have an impact play on the one hand you know the fixes and the square spaces of the world completely sass base they're growing very fast um they're now doing 300 400 million in revenue and they're growing 40 percent here over a year so um these are not small players and they're gonna eventually probably move up markets on the other hand you have the side course and the adobe's I mean adobe alone in the last five years probably spent seven eight billion dollars doing acquisitions just in in like our space right not even like the creative things that they do but in the enterprise software enterprise marketing space so I mean these are big players and then you know even automatic just raised 300 million dollars from sales force and so I think it's good that aquia um you know has access to this one kind of capital hopefully others will be able to get that too a bit more better but at least aquia will be able to you know to help come on I'm reading this question from platico talking about this year the world wide web celebrated 30 years since it was born I remember playing with I remember the first browser I use didn't understand jpeg files it was like you had to download an extension so we understood jpeg what do you think is the future of the web um I mean I talked a little bit about it in my keynote I think we're and I've talked about it actually for the last five years in a way but like I define it as the pose browser but where um you know things are becoming a lot more complex um in the sense that um as I mentioned throughout sites aren't standalone applications anymore there's a lot of integrations which means there's a lot of data to manage and there's also a lot of different channels now that customers want to have an experience on right so there's a browser experience which is important but now there is you know smartwatches mobile email digital kiosks like the experience in the new york subway that I referenced and so in the future is that it's driving a lot of screen and on screen so voice and chat all from a single place and in a way I don't know in a way the web is becoming part of our fabric it's going to be everywhere and it's going to be a little bit more invisible while being more present in a way and so browsers remain important but it will be one of many different output channels and I feel like we're in a very good position actually to to kind of I think we've navigated ourselves to be in a good position there's a lot more to do to really be good at that um and you know there's some urgency around that as well I think so cool so we've talked a few things about the future and what that might involve uh I think one of the best ways of looking forward is also to look backwards and think what can we learn can you share with us any bad decisions or mistakes that have been made in a dribble core history and what do you think you've learned from them yeah um let's see like a bad product decision yeah um well I think so I don't have any suggestions could be anything it could be a great interactive question I mean there's a lot of mistakes that we made so I think um trying to think what's a good example overlay module yeah there we go I mean yeah like we overlayed for those you know this basically you clicked something that was an overlay yeah administration experience was in the overlay right you know we thought that was a good idea and we implemented it and it turned out to be a bad idea so we remove it again so I mean these things are all they're all it's very normal I think like I don't think there's a single open source project or product organization that doesn't make those kinds of bad decisions the question is um you know how do you how do you deal with them right and so I have this this thing I call it fail forward um which is going to be a variant of fail fast but like if you fail at something you tried something you didn't work how can you learn from it and how can you institutionalize that learning so you know I think we have to keep doing these experiments though I think we have to keep trying things not just doing the things that are obviously super safe to do so because we've done a lot of things that really were experimental and worked tremendously in our favor as well and I'll give a kind of twisting the question a little bit but like you know like the taxonomy system in the early days of Drupal was let's let's call it non-standard you know and but it was very powerful and very complex and so many people adopted Drupal back in the day and this is like 2004 era um because of that right because we had something that was kind of like special and then a little bit of a of a bet and an experiment so experiments are great and we should do more of them um but we should also we shouldn't be afraid to fail and and back in mind if they don't work so do you think a telemetry initiative would help with that yes I mean yeah so yeah so the question was do you think the telemetry initiative can help with that and so let me kind of explain that a little bit so so one of the things that we don't have in Drupal is good data on how people use Drupal right like we just don't know and so the telemetry initiative is really meant to you know instrument Drupal the product so we can see as the developer community we can see which modules are actually being used and which modules are not being used but even go deeper than that and not just at the module level but even at the feature level like we were talking about this actually um we had a court committer retrospective and I think it was Alex actually that suggested like with multiple admin fees or we have a feature that allows organizations to switch the admin theme right and it's actually creating a lot of overhead because we need to make sure every theme works as an admin team and so that's a lot of testing and we're like how many people actually use that how many people actually switch their admin theme and would we be better off removing it because then we could go faster on other things right it's a good question and frankly we don't have the answer and we and if we have the telemetry initiative we could say you know for the next six months let's actually try and measure how many people change that we can use data to then decide all right it's worth keeping this initiative at this feature or we're just going to back it out because it simplifies the experience it simplifies the maintenance and it reduces a lot of overheads in the development and testing cycle as well so I'm a huge fan of this telemetry initiative obviously we would need to build it the right way you know questions around data privacy and these kinds of things very quickly come to mind but obviously we can work around those things and we can be smart about how we do things but it's actually something that we hope to do and we need the Drupal Association for that as well because I mean adding the telemetry in Drupal is probably easy but it's like capturing all of the data at the scale of Drupal and then processing and managing the data and making it available so we can analyze it I think that's where the hard work is so it would be great to work on now for the Drupal Association. It would be exciting for the project. Now I was actually going to say we're out of time and I think actually finishing on listening as a concept is actually a good place to finish so thank you very much Dries. I know you get a lot of kind of hard questions in this and you're just sat there not knowing what they're going to be so we really do appreciate it. Did you skip the hard ones now? No, I kind of went for the hard ones here and now. So thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks for all the questions. Then to the project as an issue recognition for that question please just give us a shout now and I'll end it.