 Hi, this is Bob Cook here for the Manchester Institute of Psychotherapy doing the supervision series. We've done one and two. First was about behavioural observation mode. Second, we've looked at contracts, treatment planning and interventions. And now we're moving to the third mode in the Hawkins and Sherratt model, called the 7.9 model outlined in their book, which is Supervision and Helping Professions, 1989. There's been more additions since, of course. And in this third mode we're going to, we're going to look at a more systemic approach. And we're going to think about this in systems. And whether the supervised E, that's the therapist, is merged in some way or whether the client has merged with the therapist. And we're going to look at how the supervised E stroke therapist might actually move themselves out of the system. And also, as we go up through the modes, we're going to look at the transference and particularly the transference of the client, maybe, in terms of projections onto the supervised E. And whether the supervised E is aware of that or not. Because that might be the reason why they feel stuck or not and why they bought this particular person to supervision. So here we go, mode 3, up the road to the transferences. Okay, turning to Rory again, really nice to see you again. Thanks for our third one. Third one, session on more transferences and counter transfers and stuff like that. Well, not so much counter transfers, really more here, the projections of the client onto the supervised E and how a person might be, or are you in this case, role playing it, might be stuck in the process. So tell me a little bit more where you are in terms of this client. You've got to the fifth session now. This session now, and she's, they're still not found him. He's gone to ground. Oh, gone to ground. Yeah, gone to ground, yeah, he's, don't know where he is. She's been in contact with the police and the police say we trying to find him, but we really don't know. Been in touch with the hostel and the hostel, I haven't heard anything. And now she's kind of... She must be really worried about this. Worried and angry. Now, it was a different change of pace this time. Okay. She was more angry with him. More angry. Why is he doing this to me? Why me? Why is he putting our family through this? Yeah, so really querying and asking questions. Yeah. But more angry now. Very angry. In fact, very, very angry. And at one point it was, that was a bit kind of frightened because she really became really, really angry. And what do you think she expected from you? I think part of it was she wanted someone that she could vent everything to. I think she has to audit herself with her family. So I think she feels that because I'm someone that she's got no investment in in terms of... Being safe. Yeah. So she just let it all out. And I said it's okay to be angry. So do you think if we look at it in a transverse terms, just for a moment, who do you think you might have been for her? Or who do you think you are for her? I think it could have been him. At one point. You could have been the husband or partner. I think I could have. No, I think I could have been the lad. Oh, you mean you could have been the son of some. I could have been the son. A band. Yeah, because what she was doing is she was talking directly at me as if I was him. She was saying, why? She was saying, why have you done this? What have I done that has made you go down this road? So you became the son. I became the son. And interesting what you said a moment ago is that you started to feel scared. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, she wasn't violent, but she was very angry. Very angry. I mean, very angry. She clenched her face. And at one point she was banging on her. And I was empathising and reflecting back gently. I didn't want to provoke any attraction. No, no, no. But, you know, I just said, when she paused for a breath after one particular kind of assault or verbal assault, I said, it sounds like you're really, really angry. Really angry. At him. At him. So you started to differentiate. Yes, yes. So to move out of the system. Yes, absolutely. But. Okay. So it's like, it sounds quite clear then really in a way. When you started to feel frightened of yourself, you started to think, well, actually, he might be frightened as well, because he's the son. Yes. And he wanted to differentiate out of the system so she could start seeing that you are him. Yes. And then it got me to thinking about in between the sessions where I was kind of reflecting and writing my notes on. I wonder if this is how she reacts to him and why he's a void eater. Yes. So that might be a good reason to talk about the addictions. Yes. That he wants to distract himself from. Yes. And I'm not blaming her, but I'm saying I'm wondering if in her history, in her history, that because it was, it was quite, it was quite full up, you know, and I'm a kind of mature older guy, been around the block a few times, but I thought, well, if I feel a little frightened here, I wonder how someone else would feel. Someone who was younger, maybe a son. Yeah, absolutely. And so that's very good thinking. So if you, if we used to metaphor a moment here, which we do often in most of these, and if you were just for a moment, imagine that your client and yourself was on a desert island. Yes. And the ship has sailed away, so it wasn't going to come back for at least three days. Yes. Where would you actually park yourselves? Would you put up camp away from her? Would you want to be near her camp? Would you want to go and eat and have dinner with her? Would you want to go to the other side of the island to have nothing to do with her? Well, it's sort of a level of relationship, do you think you might have with this woman? Well, it's interesting. If you don't ask me that in the earlier sessions, I want to set up camp next to each other. Yes. After the last session, which is really angry, I think I would have set up camp, but I think that I probably wouldn't have told her where my tent was at night. So you had hidden away, so she couldn't find you. She couldn't find me, yes. So you'd have almost, you'd have gone out your way to keep away from her. Yes. I would have made the effort because there's only two of us on our island and no one should be alone. But after that session, I would have, I would have, I would have been wary about being too close in her orbit. I would have wanted to have a bit of a walk on the island before she found my tent. Yeah, or probably find your tent. Yeah. Yeah, but a good walk, and then when she got there, she might have been out of breath. Yeah. Do you think, though, I think it's an important question this as well. Do you think that she just spent the next three days looking for you? So would you ever let you go? That's what I'm saying. So it's like, would she be preoccupied in finding you at all costs? I'm not sure is the answer to that. It's an interesting question, and generally I'm not sure. But we know something, you would have tried to hide yourself. I would have, yeah. You know, there was part of me that, it was only a very short, brief spurge of anger. But it was part of me that was kind of thinking, I've got to be very carefully because I could hide myself. Yeah. Incidentally, I could hide myself away. You could only have my attorney as well. Yeah. Yeah. And I had to kind of, I had to kind of speak a little bit to the child in me and say, you know, Rory, hey, you're 58. You're a big guy. This woman isn't going to attack you. She's not going to attack you. She's angry at her son. She's angry at another. We were able in the actual, this metaphor, if you like, to start using these sources. But if you take yourself off this metaphor now and let's go back into where we were, as you reflect on the metaphor and what we were talking about a moment ago, is there anything that perhaps is new to you or you can just start thinking? I just have a few points. Yeah, I just kind of wonder how I react to angry women. Right. How are you actually? How are I actually a woman? It's not something that I've really had in my sphere. I've met a few angry men once. But I've never had anybody that close who was a woman who was that angry. Right. So there's that bit. That's a really interesting one, which I'd like to pursue perhaps to another stage, but I would like to say something that came into my mind. Okay. But if you were the son. Yes. We're talking about this. We may start to understand a little bit about the dynamics between the client and the son. Yeah. In terms of close proximity, in terms of hiding himself. Yes. In terms of maybe issues over-anxious or whatever. To me, we start to have a little bit of a focus on maybe some understanding of this process. And if I was you or maybe we could at least look at it like a bit more exploration maybe in the relationship between the son and the dynamics between the two of them. Yeah. I was just thinking that was really interesting the way that farmed out in the metaphor. Yeah. Yeah. Really interesting indeed. Yeah. I was definitely indeed thinking about it. I did a lot of Sunday, which was... Yeah. That's why I'm bringing it in. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. You hit yourself internally. Yeah. Of course, the best way often to split yourself off internally is to take medication. Yeah. Of some sort. And drugs is on the line there, isn't it? Absolutely. Absolutely. And I've got a bit of a theory that is kind of emerging in me if I can share it with you. Yeah. Please do. She'd only talk briefly about her first husband, who's the father of the lad we're talking about. And she doesn't talk about him in very glowing terms. And my fantasy, if I can bring that, Bob, is that I wonder how much of her husband she sees in the sun. Ah, right. So that starts to really look at this in another mode. Yeah. And I can really see with the metaphor that might have approached you to go down that yield anyway. Well, thank you because we're going to go to the next mode soon. But that's a really interesting thought, which we'll hold. Yes. Thank you very much. Thanks, Bob.