 So on that creative theme, I'll hand over to you to hand over to our last keynote of the day. So we'll end the day with a special presentation by Diane R.C. For me, it's a special presentation because Diane is an artist. And I think this is Diana, if I apologize, extremely important. Art is something that's a wonderful commentary and a voice that's slightly different from the voices I typically hear at conferences, you know, presentations, panels, research reports. And sometimes this voice is very missing and it's also a voice that can be extremely strong and provide a very good or alternative view. So I think we will, with Josie, very inclined to have this kind of talk that maybe some might feel kind of stretches what is a typical presentation for us. This is exactly what we'd like to hear. Diana, Diana, I apologize. In Poland, this is a Polish name. Diana. I just say Diana. Okay. Diana. I'll get there. It's an artist who does socially engaged work. I won't go into details. You'll probably talk about your work. But Schubert said that space where art connects basically with social issues and social justice in one of her projects even explicitly connects activists with artists. I think there's no one better to tell us what's art's perspective on open education, open educational resources and education in general. Diana, please welcome. I have the hand up. Do you need to switch something for you? Yeah, I got this. You got it. Okay. And the clicker? We practiced. The bam. Okay, so my name is Diana Arcy. I am an artist living in Berlin. I am what in the art world we call a social practice artist. But I call myself an activist artist. I'm interested in the intersection of working with audiences to engage them in social, political and cultural ideas and finding ways to connect with them in order to bring forth the issues that are the most important to all of us. And specifically I'm more interested in actually reaching people who do not travel in art spaces, people who do not travel in academia, people who are disenfranchised, people who hate politics. This is basically the kind of people that I'm looking to work with. So I do this. I'm also out of starting doing this work. I've been doing this work since the late, what, 90s? 99 I started. Yeah, so in the process of doing this work I realized that I also had a knack for helping other artists engage with these kinds of topics. And so I started an organization. It's called Artists Without a Cause. We are artists with a cause. We just don't have the organization backing us. So the idea is to connect artists like me and a lot of the artists like the ones I'm going to be presenting today with organizations who are working on different issues in order to amplify your message and to reach out to people who you want to talk to who you maybe normally wouldn't encounter. I'd like to thank Josie for inviting me. I met her at Open Knowledge Festival in Berlin in 2014 where for the first time ever I was able to bring a bunch of artists to show people working in open data how we can story tell with their data. I'm not going to present too many examples of that because I'm sort of, there's some examples of it that we will see. So who knows what this is? Yeah, Wall Street. So we know the bull, right? And you've heard about the fearless girl, correct? Okay, so some interesting points. Actually I wanted to start my timer, sorry. So Arturo de Modica was the guy who created the Charging Bull. The Charging Bull was created in 1989 and it was placed without a permit in this square. Okay? The original point of the Charging Bull was to celebrate the can-do American spirit and especially the spirit of New York with people from all over the world who manage under horrible circumstances to make something happen. His idea to place it here was actually stemmed out of the financial crisis that happened in 86, 87. So he thought placing it here would be a great place to put it. But it had nothing to actually directly do with Wall Street. Very, very interesting. So the location of this bull turned it into something else. This fearless girl, who's here's a close-up of her. The fearless girl, she mysteriously appeared on International Women's Day. She did, she was permitted. She did have a permit. And she happened to be created by State Street Global Advisors which is a hedge fund group. Yeah. So the artist who created this, her name is Kristen Visbal and they worked in collaboration with a big advertising firm, McCann and placed her in the square. So this is what it looks like. This is her looking, staring down the bull. It is very powerful, but it's very powerful for what I believe are the wrong reasons. The idea of this from the advertising firm was this supposed to represent more women in the workplace, more women in CEO positions, in Wall Street firms, and so on and so on. I think it's kind of funny that they chose to use a little girl instead of a woman. A little bit problematic. But then the thing is too is if you think about it, how much more powerful would this have been if it was placed by Planned Parenthood? How much more powerful would it have been if it was a different organization who chose to put it there? What would the message have been if someone else chose to do it? And the bull lost its message in the placement of being placed on Wall Street. So there's two key points that I've learned in my work as an artist and working with social and political artwork is that location is everything. Location is everything. And that it's even more important to also change the format because this is a very passive format. This is something that people can come and take a photo with, but the experience of this, it's fleeting. You take a photo and you're done. You weren't actually engaged in any production. You weren't engaged in... There was no active engagement within the work. So of course, location is everything. There are several things I notice when working on finding spaces. So these two aspects are not... There's not one that's more important than the other. And I'm going to try to talk about one and then the other, but one is not more important than the other. When people think about artists and working with art and working with creatives, whether that's traditional artists or people who do more experimental work, they always think about a very traditional art space. And what I like to say is that if you're working in traditional art space, you really need to think about who the partners are because if you don't have actual partnerships with local communities and you cannot break down the barriers of the art space. Art spaces are places that not a lot of people actually go to. They're very homogenous in the people who go into them. So this is a picture of the Oakland Museum of California. They're in a museum of the actual state and they do a really interesting program called Friday Nights at OMCA. And it's using the model of the block party. So they're in Oakland and they're in a very black neighborhood in Oakland and they have used... They've worked with a partner that works with local food trucks, which most of the people who operate food truck businesses are also not people who tend to be in the museum. They work with them directly and they throw these block parties every Friday. They're free, they're open to the public, there's plenty of place to picnic. It's a bit of dark photo, but there's all these people, they're all dancing. And so using another tradition within the space has made the space more accessible to other kinds of people. This is a performance that happened in the space and actually it's a performance in which they work with the people in the public to teach them how to also perform. And then in addition to this, you have local people in the community who are selling food, selling products, there's music. It changes, it makes a space a different space. It has now turned into a space that is now active for other kinds of people. This is for me the best example if you plan on working with an art space. If you are interested in actually working with artists to get your message across and you want to work with the gallery, if they're not doing something like this, then you should just go back to the drawing board, is my suggestion. This is a short clip. We will go back. Okay, so this is a short clip. This is on 42nd Street in New York City and this is around the corner for where Enron happened. This is a piece that I created in 2004 and what I'm trying to also say with this piece is that if you have, depending on what your message is, regardless of what your message is, you should try to go to where the people are. So I placed myself right on 42nd Street between Grand Central Station and the U.N. Building and everybody who worked for any major corporation had to walk by for seven days and watch me do this. It took seven days to fill this room with paper and every day the same people kept walking by and every day people would come, they would come up to the window, they'd knock on the window, they would talk to us. One guy actually offered us his paperwork that he was shredding in his office. I mean this is I think the sixth day. This is around when we decided to, this is when we were slowing down. But yes, so you go to where the people are because it's a much more powerful message if the right people see it. Examples of these kinds of spaces go, you can think about working in schools or universities, that's an easy one, but pubs, the cultural centers, women's centers, restaurants are a wonderful place. Public space, depending on where you are, is a fantastic place to catch people. Parks are great squares. And also if you want to get very, very interesting, if you want to go into actual people's homes. If you work directly with people, a lot of different things sort of happen. So when you get to this point, one of the things you have to think about are the demographics of the kind of people that you want to reach and what is the message you want to bring across to them. So this is another piece, sorry. This is Project Row Houses. This is in the third ward of Houston. It's a black neighborhood. It's been going through an economic downturn since forever. This project was actually founded in 1993. And there was a row of 27 row houses from the 1930s that were dilapidated and falling apart. And there was no community center and there was no real interaction with most of the people in the communities outside of the typical bad stories you hear about gangs and stuff like that. There were no community centers. So Rick Lowe got together, he's an artist, and he got together with a large group of community organizers and he got a small grant. He got a grant for $25,000 from the National Endowment of the Arts and that money was used to refurb these 27 houses. And he used it to refurb these 27 houses. He engaged the community in building this. So this was not built by him and it was not built by his partners. It was built by everyone who lived there. So as you can see, there's a number here of houses, 2505, 2517, are art projects houses. The rest of the projects, the rest of the houses were used as temporary housing for battered women. Artists are invited to come to this space and to make work. People can interact with it firsthand and the artists are encouraged to, if you get to work there, you're encouraged to work with the local community in building your products. So they work with parents, churches, youth programs, and senior groups primarily. And then what's often happened with this project is that people who participate in this, young people who participate in this, they come back when they get older and they work here and they do different projects here and they come back also as artists. So he got a MacArthur Genius Grant in 2014 for this work. And they've been thinking about a while for how they could possibly replicate this in different places. One moment. Yeah, so it's an art project, but it's something that revitalized an entire community. It didn't cause gentrification. The people who participate in the people who work here and the people who live here are people from the community. And now the community has a space in which they can do all the things that they want to do and have a place to also reflect about how amazing their community actually is. This is an artwork. This is where people like me, this is what we're thinking about. So we're going to come to one of my projects. This is a very interesting project. This is White Guilt Cleanup. So when we're thinking about location, one of the very, you know, what about the internet, right? The internet is a very important location. And in my experience as an activist, I have realized that many other people of color were dealing with a lot of trolling, were dealing with a lot of explaining, you know, getting exhausted for explaining to white people what white privilege means. And so I decided to provide a service, not only to people suffering from white guilt, but from victims of white guilt. And like with this project, you know, I asked these questions, I asked the question of who is my audience and who do I want to reach. And I've been able with this project to reach both of these people. It exists primarily only online and through consultation, one-on-one consultation services. So this was an ad we placed in a music magazine. And through this ad and through Facebook and through social media, we have done one consultation for a major fashion magazine in Berlin. We are also doing a consultation for two magazine festivals where they want to incorporate, they want to be more inclusive of people of color. So this is the offset credit. We were thinking, in this project, I was thinking about different models of how to sort of finance this project. And one of the things is like, well what could, what would happen if you could sort of get rid of your white guilt for something? You know, if you would be relieved of this for this moment, could it make a better ally? And how could we make a better ally and a better accomplice to people of color through this process? So I have sold one of these. I have sold one offset credit for 200 euro. I have given a consultation for 25 euro for one, in which in the end we decided not to give them the credit. You can't just, we can't forgive everything. Thank you. And it's this interactive, it's the first time I've actually ventured into sort of object art. So it is this object, but the object comes with a process. You can't just get one, you have to have a consultation. And through the consultation is how we then can work with the individual on recognizing what the issues are with what they have done or what they're dealing with and find better ways and better solutions to move forward. So we didn't actually give the magazine an offset credit, but they actually deserve one. This magazine in Berlin, they're called Indie Magazine. They're pretty famous in the German speaking world. They invited a white woman to give black hairstyles to people who are coming to this workshop. And it turned out that she was also from Holland and she did blackface. So of course the people of color community in Berlin got very angry. We were alerted to this by other people of color. They called us in. There was a message sent to us. I said, white girl, clean up, bring your broom. And in this process of everything I do, we try to do it in a very positive manner. So we're never yelling at people. We're never getting angry at people. We're just like, hey, have you heard of cultural appropriation? Here's something you can watch. You know, here's a great article about this topic. On our Facebook group, we post pro tip do's and don'ts. We talk about current events. And it's always in the context of how to be a better ally. So in the end, the magazine, they ended up hiring us and we put a panel together for them on cultural appropriation and fashion. And we gave them a list of demands and including more diversity within the actual pages of their magazine. Not only models, but photographers, designers in their cultural section, more writers of color. And from the year that we first met with them until we did the panel, they actually did all of these things. So even I was surprised. I didn't think that this would work. I thought I would get somewhere, but I didn't think I'd get this far. So it's kind of amazing what art can do if you let it. Yeah, so this is the Democratic National Convention in Boston in 2004. And the reason why I'm showing this is to also, when you think about working with art or working with artists and thinking about not using traditional spaces, you can sort of circumvent these physical barriers because you're not a protest, because you're not a conference, because you're not any of these things. So this is the free speech zone. This is where they rallied all the people who they didn't want at the convention. And they kept them caged in there. And they couldn't go, they couldn't travel freely in Boston. 2008 when I was there with Polita Oki, you could not travel, in 2008 the Republican National Convention was in St. Paul, Minnesota, which is right next to Minneapolis. You have to cross one bridge to get there. And they shut down the bridge. I could cross this bridge. I went, I came up to a barrier, there were all these cops and they said, what are you doing? And I was like, I have a karaoke show. And I was allowed to cross the barrier and I was allowed to interact with people who were actual attendees of the convention. So this is also sort of the amazing part, how art can also function as this amazing Trojan horse. You know, it's like, oh, it's no big deal. They're just doing this. And so it's very easy to let us out, to let us through these barriers. This is an image of Polita Oki in Jerusalem. Now, when you're working within public space, you have to also understand the context of the public space that you're working in. So this image, this is a bar with an outdoor patio. And the second image, this one here is a public square. What you cannot see in this picture is that this entire public square is surrounded by police protection and tons of barriers. This show I actually did not want to do originally, but then was kind of pushed in the organization to do this show. And the show that I originally, the only kind of shows I wanted to do was this because we could circumvent police protection and barriers by being in a private bar. Even though the bar was in public space and the bar was, there were no barriers for anyone who was walking on the street to come and enjoy what we were doing. So it's not as easy as like A or B in this sense. But this is a thing though that like, you can still, you can do this with a karaoke show, but you can't do this with a protest. You can do this with an artwork, but you can't do it with a protest. So the key points here to remember are that if you're going to work in traditional spaces, make sure you have local corporations to bring the community to you. Better yet, don't work in traditional spaces and go to the places where the people actually are. Know your audience or know at least who you think you want your audience to be. And also always remember that messages that could be perceived as political or protest or like anything in this sort of realm can be circumvented by art through this Trojan horse mechanism. Now I'm going to talk about changing the format. And I mean, everyone's noticed that here in these rooms, like on the outside, there's an ex... I don't know, has everyone noticed that there's an exhibition out here? Yeah, so there's an exhibition out here, but can anyone tell me like a particular piece that they really loved that they saw? Oh, you, clearly you got, yeah. Okay, so there's a few people, but this is like what? Four, five, six? Okay, there's a little bit more, but there's not that many. How many people just walked past it? Yeah. Traditional formats are absolutely wonderful and they're fantastic and they do great work, but they're not the only way of working. And one of the things that we run into at Artists Without a Cause at AWAC is that so many organizations are like, oh, let's do an exhibition or let's do this. And the issue with this is that it is passive. And I don't have to explain to you guys experiential learning, you all know this. This is not something we need to go over, but it's important that when you're thinking within an art context and you're thinking about sort of transmitting messages that if you can fully engage the people into the process of creating and understanding the knowledge that it will stick and that it will also function as word of mouth that it will get around more. So don't just make something to look at and don't just bring in people to make something to look at. What you can do, you can bring in people to make something pretty fantastic like this. This is Conflict Kitchen. They're in Pittsburgh. They started in 2010. And it's a takeout window restaurant. And it only serves food from places that the United States is in conflict with. And they use every aspect of everything you can imagine that comes out of this place. So all the people who cook there come from these places. All the food comes from these places. The wrappers are full of information about what the conflict is and what is going on. Everyone who takes orders is also trained to sort of talk to people. And it's a work that like... So basically what they're trying to do is they're using sort of the socialness of food as an opener in order to engage people with the topics of these places and why we're in conflict with them. And they do, in addition to just serving food, they also have a lot of side programs. So they work with local organizations. They work with community groups, cultural groups. And they come in there and they hold events together. They also hosted a dinner, a Skype dinner with a bunch of people in Tehran as one of their projects. This artwork was created by John Rubin and Don Willeski. And it started in 2010. They actually opened a second location for a few years. And then now they're back at the single location. And their main goal is to sort of to counter this like clear government rhetoric about, you know, these people are batting, to give an alternative to the media headlines of these places. But they don't ever tell anyone what to think. There are many incidents there where people come and they're very angry, but the people who work there are trained in communicating with people. And if people don't agree with you, they let, you know, it's over. And by not telling people what to think, they create this open space where people can really learn and people can start to think about these ideas. And if you enable these choices, then the audience can maintain their autonomy and it increases the likelihood of their willingness to listen and engage with other ideas that might not necessarily be their own. This is Polita Oke. Polita Oke, my name is Polita Oke. My name is Polita Oke. My name is Polita Oke. My name is Polita Oke. My name is Polita Oke. My name is Polita Oke. I had a series of discussions on important subjects, starting with a dinner we had last night. George W. Bush. I'm actually interpreting a dance, a petite contract. If you don't want to say something, there is a limit to what you can do. You really don't understand and you don't understand a normal person like Donald Trump. He decided to do it in all the accents that he could come up with where the wrangling was on the rise. The deep cuts and the government spanning and returning power to the people. That, that we are. So that is Polita Oke. Here is a picture of Polita Oke. And these are some of the interesting cavits of this work. It does not exist without an audience. The work is not finished. The work is not the karaoke videos. It is not the moderation. It is the audience. Without the audience participation, there is no work. And within that, they become direct collaborators in the creation of the work. And they become owners, co-owners of the work. We, so the project itself, we pull together as many speeches as we can find across as many different political ideologies as we can find and we make all of them available. The audience comes, they pick the speeches that they want to give and then they are free to give them however they want or free not to give them however long the speech is. That is how long they get the microphone for. And they can come up multiple times. It is a pretty easy concept. One of the important things about it though is that the project itself can actually turn very easily into propaganda. So it is about maintaining through the moderation of the project and with the political discussions that come out because of the project, maintaining a sort of sense of neutrality so that the audience members can determine their political ideologies freely. But the project itself has no political ideology. And this is how we keep it from becoming propaganda. So this is in a public square in Minnesota. And this is a very young boy who decided to participate in the project. This is another image of another show. It is very dark. You cannot see it. This is, okay, here you can see it. It is like full of people. It is a bar. This is in Dortmund. And here. And so, yeah, so this is Polito Oki. So what I would like to end with are some suggestions about how to work with artists both in the short term and the long term. Both in the short term and the long term. So one of the best ways to do it is to combine forces to make it possible to spread your message. Your work and the tools that you are creating with the people that you haven't been able to access or reach before. So if you work together with this artist, you can make these determinations of who these people are or what kind of groups you want to target. And they can sort of think of creatively what is maybe a way to do this. One thing that I did with Polito Oki was that I worked with an organization named Declare Yourself. They no longer exist, but they were a voter registration organization. They had advertisements with Christine Aguilera and all these big fancy people through these big parties registered nobody to vote. Everybody was already registered to vote. People who hated politics came to Polito Oki. And they registered, you know, in a show of 40 people, they made 20 voter registrations. And so it was a very fruitful collaboration. So this is one of the things that you should do. I think one of the other points is that it's also using artwork as a way to pick up people after the momentum is already built. So in making this kind of work, in making White Goat Cleanup, in making, you know, in Conflict Kitchen, Conflict Kitchen, they work directly with local community organizations so people know where they're supposed to go. Other artists who are making this kind of work, if you don't have this connection already, this is a great way to introduce whatever the work is that you are working on in order to pick up people who have already expressed interest. And then another great thing is that any data or information that's produced as a result of the work is something that can be released in open platforms. So I have a very empty... I have a very empty platform, like a very empty site on Say It, which is an open source transcript program that was started by my society. And the idea, the hope is, is that I can eventually release every single transcript that I create for Polito Oki onto this platform. That means educators have access to it, journalists have access to it. And that means no longer having to dig through PDFs on government websites. So for me, that's something very, very exciting. Now you have to think about where would you find these artists? So you can come to someone like me, of course. This is something that we do at AWAC. We research and gather this information on these different kinds of people. You can reach out to different universities or art groups. If you would do something like an open call, it's something that I don't generally suggest, because especially in these days and time and how precarious the art world is for anyone who's an artist, anything that's attached with any kind of funding will lead to thousands of applications that you won't even really know what to do with, unless you write these things in a very sort of specific manner, that it's very, very clear that someone already needs to be engaged in the topic. That's very, very important. Almost through, if you're skeptical about these ideas, because this is not really the easiest thing to sort of just accept as something to try out, or if you're only thinking about it in a more traditional way, one of the things you can do is that organizations like my own, and then there's a wonderful, fantastic organization called Center for Artistic Activism. They're based in New York, but they travel worldwide. They do creative activism workshops where they really explain how to think about these processes from an artistic perspective. All these workshops are framed in a way where you do produce like a work in the end, but it really gives you sort of insight as to how these processes could actually improve different kinds of campaigns or different kinds of topics that you want to make more widely available to other people. And then this is a great opportunity for both organizations and different people working on different topics and artists, because this is a way to also pull resources and share information, share research. If you support artistic partners with these sort of things, you can lead to better targeted projects, and you can make this part of your actual strategy. One of the things to also think about is that art is also something that can be used as a multiplier, thank you. Polita Oki, for example, we're in the stages right now of turning it into a toolkit. We want to make this available to other groups. We want to make this available to other people in other countries to make it in other languages and make it more available to other people to use, especially if they're working on topics like voter participation or elections. For these kinds of things, too, though, you also have to remember that like open access doesn't, fully open access doesn't always work. Projects can easily be turned into propaganda if you're not careful in who are the stakeholders in it. So, something to think about. This is a, this is a resources and reference list. This is the AWAC website. Actopedia is a wonderful project that was put together by the Center for Artistic Activism, and I believe the Yes Men were involved. This is where you can find just like different kinds of activist art projects that different kinds of people have been doing. Open engagement is a conference that happens every year. It is a gathering of artists who work in social practice, who work with politics, social issues, environmental issues. That's a great place to find people. And then again, artistic activism. They do tons of research on artists who are making this kind of work. And like also in the same, in the same side are looking at ways for how to better incorporate this into, into larger practices. My last point is I wanted to say to, in the long term, this is Chris Lehan. He's a political strategist. He used to work for Al Gore. Now he works for the state of California. And he basically makes art. He, they were trying to pass a law in Sacramento that his employers decided they didn't like. And it was about trucking, I believe. And he surrounded the, like the state house with truckers who were like honking their horns so loud that they couldn't hold their session. It's a performance art piece. Right? And think about it. I mean, this guy, he's not really, he's not really the funnest looking guy, right? You know, if you would think as an artist, as a strategist, you know, I mean, he's tough. So in the long term, I'd like everyone to think about maybe thinking about the artist as a strategist and like how you can bring them into your organizations in a more longer term context, maybe through fellowships or grants and like having them within your organization because it'll just lead to better projects on a whole. So don't go it alone. And to give us a little break from Chris Lehan, this is my bunny. His name is Peter. And yeah, that's basically it. That's all I had to say. I made it to 31 minutes. Do we have time for questions? Some questions? All right, back there. Do we need to bring our mic? I can wait just wait a second. Thank you for that amazing presentation. I think we've been having quite a lot of discussions today about how we articulate what we want to do with open education and how we move our language, our work forward. And I was just wondering if you'd done any work with education, you know, in a university or in a school or maybe collectively, I think this is maybe a question to everyone, if actually maybe we need to collectively start thinking a bit more about how we harness art in terms of how we are telling our narratives around open education. But I was just wondering if you had any examples to share about open education. I've done some work mostly in primary and secondary education. I've done some university work, but I find that the least interesting. Mostly in the arts. The Germany has a very studio based practice and I like to read a lot more. So it doesn't really go over well in Germany if you tell a bunch of students to read 200 pages of something if they're in art school. So I've done some work in arts education, but it's arts education. So it was mostly based in after school programs in poor economic neighborhoods and finding ways to sort of engage people. Yeah, that's been most of my experience. I haven't directly worked with anyone, like any of you actually. This is my first time. Is that an offer? Yeah, it's an offer. I think I want to take that offer and start to think about just thinking about all the ways in which a lot of our activism isn't taking place where people are. I'm just, my mind is blown by all the different examples you gave and I think I'm going to keep thinking about this for years. But I will definitely stay in touch with you to try to make things happen more in my own context and try to imagine how it would work for the open education community and what those kind of spaces look like online also and not just face-to-face, but also face-to-face. A lot of what we do in the open is online, but it doesn't affect the people in our own face-to-face lives and I'm just trying to think about that. So thank you. One of the things I wanted to go back to your question, though, too, is if you're having problems coming up with what is the message that you want to get across, then you bring in creatives, bring in artists. For me, the dream would be is that being an artist, working with a group of people, working in an organization, really seeing and getting to interact with what they're doing, because I think that's how you best understand what they need to say. I mean, it's also, you know, it's a big ask. It's a big ask to let someone from the outside to come completely in, but I think in doing that, you enable the artist to be able to, you know, if I come in there or someone I know comes in there, I think we would be able to tell you what you're trying to say. So I'll jump in, and then I'll hand it over to somebody who maybe has a question, so I'm going to do that thing that academics do, where we don't really have a question. We just kind of talk about, you know, how we feel about things, but yeah, I think that you're absolutely right. And I wanted to say that I feel like this community has really got a lot of artists in it, right? This community particularly, that's one of the reasons why I avoid some of the more corporate conferences about buying a product than it is about creating something. So I think that, you know, we're kind of ripe for that kind of conversation. I think it was a question over here. Hi, thank you again, like everyone else is saying. So I recently saw a documentary called Hypernormalization by Adam Curtis, and there was a segment where they were talking about this advisor to Vladimir Putin, I think his name was Vladimir Serkov, and apparently he used a lot of our techniques to just kind of mess with the political environment, create confusion, and actually further authoritarianism. I haven't quite figured out, I haven't processed your talk yet, but I think something about what I've found really inspiring, I think others did too, is the way you're not just provoking and just kind of stirring shit up, that you're actually seeming to kind of move the bar ahead a little bit, with a bit of a tangible outcome. So I don't know if that's a question, but do you think about those sorts of things? I do, I mean like the CIA had the most amazing art program during the Cold War. Like, they were using art. They were using art to push their message. And a lot, if you look, I mean for me, Chris LeHann is like, you know, I look at Chris LeHann and I'm just like, and I look at the different kinds of like campaigns he's put together, and I'm like, wow, this is a very fantastic performance art piece. This is a very interactive participatory work with the local community. Like, he's doing these things that are completely informed by art. And then I look at other groups, I look at the groups that I love and the groups that I think are doing great work, and they have these great messages, but they're not thinking in these sort of radical ways to reach out to people. Art can be a crazy kind of disruptor. And so for me, it's not only about disrupting the space, but it's about just like, it is about pushing the bar. It's about pushing it a little bit forward so that more people can become involved, because when you get a critical mass and things can move. So what can we do in order to build on the work that everyone has already been doing, and get more people involved in the work? Hi. It was an inspiring talk. Thank you very much. I'm kind of tying it back to things that I've heard throughout the day. And I was at a session when Rob Afaro spoke, where Annalisa Manca spoke. Rob Afaro was talking about theory and getting ourselves to think about theory in relation to technology and the underpinning philosophy in relation to things. And Annalisa was talking about critical pedagogy. And as having a conversation over lunch about somebody, what struck me was it came up as, like how do we influence? How do we get that influencing position? But I think you've just provided me an answer anyway with that, that it possibly could be through art. And I'm thinking for any of those people that I've just mentioned, like Rob or Annalisa, do you think this could be a way of broadening the message of their research and of what they think about this? I don't have any... No, absolutely. I think this is the way in which I am a lot of other artists who are I guess, political social practice artists. This is how we are working. It's very research-based, so it's taking all this information and looking at these structures and seeing what we can do in order to reach other people. And so that's absolutely possible. Thank you for that incredible and really inspiring speech. And I don't have a question either, I wanted to share something, sorry. But it's because somebody asked the question about your practice and how that intersects with education. I just wanted to share a little example of something that happened here in the UK, because obviously a lot of your examples are from Europe and the States, naturally. So in my previous life I worked in the arts. Josie said I wasn't allowed to talk about this, but I'm talking about it now. I basically did a project called Represent and the culmination of it happened as part of Parliament's London 2012 programme exhibition, and it happened in Westminster Hall, but basically we got a group of spoken word artists together and they worked with a group of young, aspiring sort of social artists, activists. It's a group called TripWires. It's run by Index and Centorship. They worked together over two days to design a workshop for disenfranchised young people. So 16 and 17 year olds who don't have a voice and have a vote in Parliament to say what does representation mean to you? And then this amazing performance poet called Inua Ellams which is our source poem that we also asked the general public to contribute to. We had some billboards outside Parliament and he created this poem which was made into a film that was shown in Westminster Hall. So those frankly disenfranchised and pissed off voices were really, really heard. And it's the thing about location and having that playing in Westminster Hall where MPs and peers are walking through every day rather than having it playing in an art gallery or in an art space or in the schools just made it so much more effective. So I just wanted to highlight that some of this practice was, I mean that wasn't with higher education, it was with further education but some of this practice is happening in the UK as well. But thank you, it was so inspiring and slightly nerve-wracking now. Any last questions? Okay, we're going to draw to a close today then and let people have enough time to go back and refresh themselves before tying themselves out again a little bit later on. I think we need to give Diana another round of applause because she's so happy to have you here. Thank you. Thank you. There's Polita Oki pins on the front like thing. I want to say in German, season on the desk. And there's also pins with AWAC on there. Thank you so much. Thank you everybody and see you later on.