 I don't know if anyone else has any. I don't see any. So we'll move on to three. I'm sorry. Yes. Are you in now? Charlie was trying to get in. Sounds like he's getting in now. Charlie Baker. There you are. Okay. So Charlie's in. We just can't see him. Oh, there he is. How would he do? Okay. So item three is comments and questions from the public. Not on the agenda. Is there anyone from the public who's joined us? Doesn't look like it. There are a couple of people whose names, if you click on attendees, they can raise their hand. And then Tom meeting TV is on, but I didn't know. Okay. So if I click them on, do I see them? Oh, they can raise a hand. I see. It can raise their hand. It doesn't look like anyone has raised a hand. Can I see them all? I probably can't. All right. So you ask them to unmute and they get promoted to panelists and you see them. Okay. Good enough. All right. So let's move on to item four then approving the minutes from January 20th, 2021. And March 1st, 2021. Steering committee meetings. So I have a motion to approve. Bridget. Helen, I had small changes to them. There were just some slight, slight inaccuracies. For example, there was a, there was a decrease in, where we talked about what the expected increase in the expense budget was. There was a supposedly a decrease in, in spending. It was confusing the way the thing was worded. I sent those small changes to Kevin earlier today. I had sent him to the lineup, but I copied Kevin on them. So I don't think we necessarily need to go through them bit by bit. I don't think we need to go through those small changes. Okay. Are people. Okay. With just approving the little small changes. Without seeing them. Okay. I'm fine with that. Yeah. All right. So a motion to approve the two sets of minutes, January 20th and March 1st. Okay. Tim Barrett. Motion made a motion to approve. Is there a second? Okay. And Bridget seconded. So all in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? All right. They are approved. So getting on to the meat of this meeting. Helen, can I, can I stop you for one second? Just one second. I've never been introduced personally to Travia Childs. And I just want to say hi. And I haven't been to a school board meeting. And so I just want to make sure that I got a chance to say hi, because I've never personally seen you, you know, live before. So nice to see you. Have you met Becky? Have you met Becky? Becky, could you change your name so everybody knows who you are. You've got Delilah still up. I have not met Becky either. So welcome. So yes, welcome to Dr. Travia Childs. And Ms. Rebecca Day, who goes by Becky. They are our two newest board members. So Becky won the three year seat. And Travia won the two year seats in the election in March. Congratulations, both of you. Nice to meet you, Becky. Yeah. Well, all righty. So moving on then to David Sue, Sue Allen next trying to get into the meeting. Okay. Carl can let her in. Okay. She's running our meeting tonight. So we'll let her in. I don't see her as an attendee. Oh yeah. I'm trying to join the meeting, but I'm not authorized. She's saying. I'll tell her to try again. I have one of my staff, Lenny Turquil is trying to get in also, but hopefully that will work in a minute. I don't see any public members or is that. Oh, yeah, if you go down. If you clicked on attendees. Okay. If you click on participants. Okay. I got a screen and you'll see 15. Yep. Analysts and then four attendees. Right. Okay. I told her to try it again. So, okay. Carl's, Carl's watching Kevin. Thanks. Okay. And, and Tim is. Said he, he'll be in and out visually. One more housekeeping issue. Barb asked if it was possible to make it so that we could see all the participants and not just the panelists. I don't know if it's possible to make it so that we can see them, but correct me if I'm wrong, Carl, but I believe unless we change the kind of meeting it is, it's set up as a webinar. So Carl can promote people when they need to speak, but we can't, there's not really a button that we can press to just make everybody visible at once. I think I made all the panelists visible at once. So what you guys see is what the attendees see now. Okay. But the attendees will only be sort of promoted if we ask them to unmute and they have a question to answer. They can mute and they can be promoted. So we can see them when they ask their question. Yeah. Okay. So when you share these meetings, Bridget, you just keep the participants up so you can see if they've raised their hand. Okay. But I do. And then sometimes my fellow board members help me by, you know, noting if someone's got their hand up. But usually I keep track of that just by having it up because you can have it on the right hand side of your screen all the time you can see if someone raises their hand. Okay. And how about the chat? Can someone just help me? There's only so many little dials with my fat fingers that I can do without turning stuff off. So I would appreciate that. Yeah, I am. I can play that role and just make sure that we're not missing any questions or chats. Alrighty. So then let's, are we ready to start the presentation with Charlie? Are we still waiting for people to get in? Well, Sue hasn't gotten back to me, Helen. So I told her a couple of times, I told her to try it again. So if you guys could just monitor, she'll get in when she can. Okay. Kevin, do you, it's, is it Sue Alnick? Yes, Sue Alnick. Yeah. So maybe can you just send me her email and we, does she, is she texting or emailing you? E-mailing me. Yeah. Just give me your email and I'll have Carl, invite her. That way she'll have the link right in. Okay. I'll send this to you right now. Yep. And I'll send it to you, Carl. Well, maybe just as a little background before Charlie begins to speak, we, one of the, the issues that the city council has been dealing with is coming up with a recommendation. To the CCRPC, the Chittenden County Regional Planning Commission, on which exits that we are, approve of or think are the best choices for the I-89 future construction in what 30 years out or 20 years out 2050. And it occurred to us. Unfortunately, kind of later in the game that, or actually, I think Kevin noted it, that we hadn't heard anything, nor had we invited you to comment on, so what do these different exits, how do they impact the school? And if you had any thoughts about them? So we put off our vote and, or we reconsidered the vote and decided to wait until, we had this meeting with you so you could hear the presentation from Charlie and consider what exits are good or not so good, or however you determine them to be in order for the, the council to factor that in to our final recommendation. So I'm not anticipating, I know we don't want to drag this out forever, but, terribly smiling, but I recognize that if you haven't seen this presentation before or thought about this, that tonight isn't necessarily the night that you're all going to line up and say, hey, this is what I think that you may want to discuss that further, but I would encourage you to potentially put that on your next agenda or in the near future so you have the time if you wish to think about it. I mean, it's possible you don't want to make a comment period, you don't care, but I'm not in, I'm not requiring or we aren't expecting you to sort of hear it the first time and jump to a conclusion. Thank you for that. I did just want to say before Charlie jumped in, we haven't had a chance as a board to discuss it, so we won't have a position as a board tonight. We, Corey Burdick our communications officer has been really great about sending us information. You know, we've seen some of your agendas in minutes and we've seen a soft copy of the presentation. I think I'm not sure if everyone's had a chance for you all that there was sort of a pile of information she sent to us, but I'm certainly happy for each board member to ask questions or, you know, comments as they wish, but they're really speaking on behalf of themselves as a board member as opposed to speaking for the whole board because for sure to give it a chance to vote or really have a discussion as a board about it. Yeah. Okay. And this is your chance to ask any questions you might have. And it probably, it doesn't necessarily have to be your only chance either. So I will ask that you turn the, you know, I think we're going to have a meeting over to Charlie so he can begin his presentation. And Charlie, do you want questions as you go along or do you want to go through it? And then. Yeah, sorry. I'm trying to see all your faces. I'm happy to go either way. We tried to keep this a little bit shorter. And I do want to echo all the things you just said, Helen, this is by no means, just like the last chance to provide input on this. And I am certainly happy to come back. You know, weekly, bi-weekly, monthly, whatever, whatever is helpful to you. Sorry, that's a little joke between me and the city council. I think it probably felt like I was there weekly over the last few months. But so there is a lot. And I know that we forwarded a lot of information or through Kevin to, to you. And it was a lot to digest. So I'm going to give you kind of a quick summary tonight. And then we can, you know, have, let the conversation go where it will. Okay, great. This is pretty similar. Oh, sorry. And if I can get this, there we go. So I'm going to just review a little bit of the process that we've gone through to date. And realizing that we are just partway through this project. And we, we are kind of at a point about interchanges. And to be honest with you, based on the conversation at the city council over the last couple of months. We've kind of adjusted where we're at with the study. So getting a clear vote, you know, right now is not necessarily critical. And I'll kind of talk about where we are in the process here. I mentioned we did a lot of community meetings. Mostly in South Burlington. But also with some underrepresented communities, we tried to do some reach out there. You know, they were probably. A little bit more Burlington or other town focused than necessarily South Burlington. And also with some of the institutions as well. And then we had a big public meeting a couple of weeks ago. And then, and then I just want to spend a minute here. Just to kind of update, we actually are having the advisory committee meeting. The study advisory committee is meeting tomorrow morning. And what we're asking them to consider is really keeping all three interchanges alive. In terms of further analysis. I don't know. But we are also shifting the focus over the next few months. Away from the interchanges. And onto. And I don't know, I've been kind of using terminology. If the interchanges are planned B. As Helen made a reference, like, you know, they're out there some point in the future. There may be a long-term investments. What do we want to do in the shorter term? What's plan A, what can we do to avoid having to spend tens on an interchange? And so we're going to focus more on the shorter term. More of the transportation demand management. How do we reduce vehicle traffic in this area? And then the second bullet here is a little note. That even after we're done with the study, we're going to keep tracking what is happening in this area. And trying to figure out what would be the appropriate point that triggers the need to move forward with a bigger investment if it's needed at all. And of course, if that kind of decision is made, that's going to most likely trigger NEPA, which is the federal process to do environmental impact statements. And certainly any big interchange investment or widening would trigger NEPA and the need for an EIS. And so, you know, that'll be a decision that we get to with VTRANS and maybe even Federal Highway about when to start that. But again, that's some number of years away. So there is nothing imminent in terms of big construction projects. And I'm just going to pause there for a second. Any questions just kind of about the process? And I apologize for being a long-range planner. I know we're like 30 years away is a long time to think about. And I think one of the points about why it's so important that we're going to monitor the situation is, you know, lots of things could happen. We could have a pandemic. You know, we could, people could be working from home. These are just hypothetical things, right? But we also know like technology is going to change. You know, every day or every week it seems like I see a new automaker is going to go all electric. And there's going to be autonomous vehicles that start to get more into that mix. You know, what does that do to the transportation system? We really don't know. And so we really need to monitor what happens here to decide when it's time to move forward and do something different. So, and this is just to update you kind of and the South Burlington Council did have a vote on April 19. It's four to 12 B was a three to vote. I understand there's some discussion about reconsidering that vote. And so they're in that process right now. And different committees from the city weighed in the planning commission, the energy committee, like that committee, economic development committee, I think the natural resources committee also weighed in. And you can see, you know, kind of leanings towards 13 over 12 B, but some mix. And then we had, we have a technical committee made up of the trans and municipalities that did support the 13. And I apologize for acronyms. Single point diamond interchange is the SBB, SBDI. If you're wondering what that is. And just want to kind of ground you. We did develop with the advisory committee, six goals. And we developed metrics under those goals. That we were trying to evaluate how well are we meeting each of those goals? And I see Megan has a question. Just a comment. I don't, they didn't submit a formal memo, but the natural resources committee did vote between 12 B and 13 SBDI. And the 13 SBDI was. They're, they're the result of that vote. It didn't come forward to us in the form of a memo, but it was reported to us. I just wanted to add that. Yeah. Yeah, I knew that. Yeah. Sorry that wasn't on the slide, but I knew they did offer some comment there also. So. These are three of the goals. Safety, livability, mobility. And I'm not going to read every single one of these metrics here. But then in the environment, the economy. And also maintaining the transportation system. Which is really where we kind of dealt with cost issues. Where the, the six goals. And you can see, I think we ended up with 20. I can't remember 25, something metrics. That we were trying to use to evaluate. These interchange ideas. And then I'm really. And this is where I feel really guilty. I feel really guilty. I'm giving you kind of like a punchline here. And this is, we spent hours with. With South Burlington committees and council and public meetings. Before we got to this point. So this is, I'm really fast forwarding you. This is kind of how the scoring on all those metrics turned out. Between 12 B and 13. So we did bifurcate the decision-making. Into two decisions. What's the best thing to do at 14? Because at some point. There will be an opportunity to replace that structure. And. And it's an existing facility, right? And we'll have to decide what to do with that. When that structure needs to be replaced. Which may be. In that 20 to 30 year horizon. And then there's another question about. Which is more. Improvement oriented. We were going to improve or add an interchange. 12 B or 13 was the other question. So this is how the 12 B or 13 scoring turned out. And you can see here the. The SBDI scored better given these metrics. And, you know, I kind of reviewed some of the conversations that happened. With the city so far. And here's just a quick summary of some of the strengths and weaknesses. That are consultant team pulled out. You know, and really. Every one of these. There's trade-offs, right? Like. It's kind of, I don't know. It's kind of like squeezing a balloon. You know, you squeeze it. One place that pops out somewhere else. And. You know, I kind of reviewed some of the conversations that happened. And that means that one place that pops out somewhere else. And traffic is just like that, you know, if we add capacity to the system, traffic shifts over that way. If we constrain traffic flow, you know, it moves to other places. And so happy to pause here. See if you have any questions on. Kind of 12 B or 13 and maybe I should zoom in here a little bit on. And I'm trying to see if we have Dorset Street called out here. But. This has the 13 SBDI has the largest percent. Increase on Dorset Street south of 89. The south of Kennedy. Goes up, you know, almost by a third in that area. It does reduce some traffic. On Dorset Street north of Kennedy. Because. People instead of having to go up Dorset. To get to exit 14 to get on the interstate, they would be able to get on right at 13. So there is a little bit of movement. Of traffic again, redistribution of traffic. And here you see there's a 17. Sorry, I don't know where that. Little get the graphic to go at 17% reduction of traffic. Kind of by you mall. And it's also a pretty significant reduction of traffic. At exit 14. So exit 13. Pull allows people to use for 13 instead of 14. And Megan, were you going to. Or ask something or. Or I was just going to, going to say that I take my daughter to violin lessons. In the new right circle area and I regularly follow trucks. I take my daughter to violin lessons. I take my daughter to violin lessons. I take my daughter to violin lessons. From that metal and drive. They go down Heinzburg road. They turn left on Kennedy. They go down 189. To root seven. And then they turn left. To catch the backup north to catch 89. I just want you to know that that's currently the, the, the route that those trucks take. So 12 B would be good for them, right. Or 13. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of a question, Charlie. I don't think we've ever talked about it in 19 was in 1962, 63 when they built 13. Why didn't they finish it? There must have been a reason why they, they did a half interchange. I think if you think back to that timeframe, I don't think South Burlington, sorry. I'm speculating, but if I had to guess, I would say in South Burlington, it wasn't as developed as it is now. And so there wasn't as much. I don't know what it looked like at that time, but I'm sure it was a two lane road, right? That. So that's my best guess, Matt. Yeah. Sorry. That was before my time. It should have said that. Yeah. I'm sorry. Brigitte. Yeah. I was wondering, Charlie, when I had looked over some of the information that had been sent over, there were maps of these different options. And I know that that takes a little bit more time, but it was helpful for me to try to visualize them a little bit. And a couple of the questions that I had related to, you know, having looked at those maps. So I don't know if that would be helpful for other board members, but I was wondering if you have those available that you could share with us and kind of walk us through what those different options are. Yeah. Yeah. I was wondering, Charlie, when I had looked over some of the information that had been sent over, there were maps of these different options. And I know that that takes a little bit more time, but it was helpful for me to try to visualize them a little bit more. So I'm going to walk us through what those different options look like. Yeah. Would you like to take a look, take a look at like these two interchanges? Yeah. I'm going to scroll down. So close your eyes if you get queasy from that. So here is the single point diamond interchange. Concept at exit 13. And you can see on the right hand side of this graphic is Dorset street. So this is kind of picking up from the light at Dorset and we have to take a look at the visibility and bringing, adding a light, basically, over where the main line at 89 is right now and removing a lot of other ramps. Right. And so this would kind of bring all the traffic to this signal. We have looked at some other options. Roundabouts, double roundabouts. Simple diamonds. And this did seem to function the best, but because we're putting a light on here, we would and sorry this is like federal highway details you may not need to know but we probably would have to decertify this as an interstate and take it more to a state highway so maybe it would turn into a state highway 189 or something and I say that as a preference for the city preferably a state highway rather than a city street right just in terms of maintenance and who's taking care of it and that type of thing but this would be more of a accurate road I assume it would still not allow access to properties north and south so it still would be fairly high speed but allows to do reconfigure this road so that it looked more like Kennedy Drive right more in that vein and also allow us to bring the Kennedy Drive bike path or side path that's on the north side there right through and along this that's what this yellow dash line is so we can continue that all the way you have to maybe the shelter and road or to connect with other bike path network pieces can I ask a quick question about that the yellow line it would go over these different exit and entrance ramps I was just trying to visualize how different that is from what we have at 14 right now if that would be any different than what we have up at the north end of Dorset street these are at grade crossings so what what the engineers kind of worked up was I don't know again there may be some nuance that may not be easy to see but but these curves here of this like the ramp turns here are much tighter than what's at exit 14 right now so traffic would have to slow down more than it does at exit 14 and that was kind of very intentional trying to slow down the cars and really give them the opportunity to look for a bicycle or pedestrian at these two crossings so it is there's a little bit of you know I can see how you could make the analogy it's a little similar but also then two other crossings are done with the light so those are protected you know at the light so I think that's we were trying to get it to a safer situation than it is at 14 but it is still at grade with some free flow traffic on this one side thank you for asking that and I think the next slide here kind of zooms in a little bit more so you can you know see that a little closer and one of the one of the reasons this scored pretty well not only did it take traffic out of exit 14 but it also took out a lot of existing infrastructure so if if and when that infrastructure needs to be replaced this is a very expensive option is you know around 60 million but because v-trans I think was looking at it was like oh maybe there's some rationale here if we don't need to maintain all that old infrastructure we're just replacing it or replacing it with this new design instead of the old you know bridges and culverts and everything that are there now right because you and actually we'd be talking about getting rid of this whole um southerly barrel of 189 like that could either you know go back to natural resources maybe maybe some of that property could be used for a parking ride or some other uses but any more questions on the SBDI at 13 okay um and did I might have skipped over 12 the I apologize I'll just add that it will reduce the noise for that songbird road for the condos on songbird road that was uh one outcome of moving that barrel north right to be more flush um and then this is the 12v concept um so just to orient you this is 116 you know which is a two lanes state highway right now and this existing bridge and you know and I lived in Butler farm jill creek village so very familiar with that I should have said started this off with an aside thank you for educating my two kids they're doing great but on this design the southbound track traffic would all get off on off and on on the west side here of 116 at a light or around about that's what these symbols are either light or around about northbound you know the development activity on the north side here is kind of constrained what could be done and so it seemed like the best solution was to actually bring that traffic into tilly drive again with some sort of intersection control and then another intersection control here and then old farm road would need some intersection control um and um with all of these we tried to make sure there was enough room for a sidewalk and a multi-use path um which you know would be a great addition with or without the interchange right and so um so that was that was I don't think there's any other um you know and there's other some other dash lines here you see um which are some things from the city's plan to connect some of these more local streets back over to the east and north through technology park and through the o'brien farm property any questions that help you understand 12 b it does other board members so that you have questions does anybody have any questions about where things where traffic would flow it's 39 increase on that road with this well b is that right um I think 39 and maybe you've looked at these numbers more recently than I have but yeah I think it was 39 increase like south of here south of this interchange on heinsberg road and then we get some of the same effect though of um like north of kennedy traffic actually goes down because again people start using the interstate instead of right now if you're in the secu in this part of the secu you go up heinsberg road the willison road you get to exit 14 right um and so this would allow you to you know use the interstate to bypass the local streets um so um like one of the interesting things you know you're thinking about not just implications on the high school or middle school but um like chamberlain or not not chamberlain I'm sorry rick markot I'm sorry my daughter would kill me rick markot um uh you know is that this this one reduced the most traffic on williston road um again because people get on 89 there yes make yeah I just wanted to say that we still don't have the numbers with that service road north of williston road and I see that as something that's really missing here and this the increase in traffic would be drawn from exit 12 in williston so I think that's important to state too that this exit 12 b would draw more you know drive through traffic coming from the southern you know the southern towns of heinsberg starksboro etc to come and catch 12 b as opposed to taking the route 2a which is just in the fork there you can go 116 or route 2a through st. George to exit 12 in williston I'm not sure that's a factual statement but um when we were analyzing from heinsberg village because we were concerned about impacts on heinsberg village it still was just as fast for them to go to like if they want to go to the medical center it was just as fast or a little bit faster for them to use exit 12 um but your statement about um this does take some traffic out exit 14 it also takes traffic out at 12 so there is some diversion you know and right now uh like either one of these interchanges probably 13 or 12 would become a more attractive airport exit right then um then 14 or 12 if one of these was an option so there definitely is traffic diverting and using um one of these or both of these um instead of 12 or 14 would you have to then um upgrade 116 in some way to handle that traffic because I mean it's it's yeah it's not really meant to be an interstate in terms of um heavy trucks and all of that on it yeah nobody yeah and it is a same highway uh and you certainly nobody wants to be an interstate but that is a good issue here um we were looking at if this was to happen it would bring enough traffic here that this would probably have to go from a two lane to a four lane highway um and so you know that is a very different feel than what is there now um and not quite sure exactly how far up that four lane highway um David Saladino I think is in the on the attendees he's the project manager for VHB on this uh he can probably but it might need to be widened the four lanes all the way to Kennedy and so that that segment of Pinesburg Road um you know would definitely feel different um no doubt I have a couple of questions yes um so 13 was the increase in traffic there with regard to um um uh near the high school was that going to be was that a 17 percent increase is that what that was or 33 um it was a 17 um well I we're giving you a number by um the wall actually hold on a second I think I have another graphic that might be more helpful um find it um are you able to see that no you're not able to see that are you we saw it we saw it we lost it and now it's gone nobody said it fast enough I'm sorry um okay sorry um here was a little graphic uh I thought you might ask some questions about what happened around this location um and so uh the little boxes here uh kind of give you a sense of impact from 12v and from 13 the single point diamond interchange uh so north of Kennedy endorse it um traffic in all in at all times a day go down a little bit you know a few percent uh with 13 and with 12v they would go up a little bit maybe um and then Kennedy um 12v decreases traffic most of the day but there's a little increase in the pm peak um with 13 traffic would increase on Kennedy by somewhat significant you have 10 to 15 percent depending on time of day um I mentioned Doris Street south of the intersection this is where exit 13 has a huge impact big increases um and this is a little bit similar to what happens on Heinsberg Road south of the interchange um and you can imagine if this was the only interchange for the whole seq right people would be coming from both east and west areas to get to this area and from chelburn etc so there's increases in the 30 percentile range for 13 small increases two three five percent 12v and then um on 189 um 12v uh has significant decreases in volumes and the exit 13 here has like traffic more than doubled on 189 uh with this full interchange and again um yeah so is that helpful yeah um can I ask another question that's indirectly related in terms of uh development future around these interchanges or these um exits so which exit uh I think I could figure it out but 12 12v or 13 is actually going to have the capacity to in terms of land around it develop into residential versus commercial or business or whatever in terms of being able to bring a more um you know more people more people into the community you're working or living or what have you which one is going to have the greater impact um I will do my best um you know don't don't uh don't put or crucify me 20 or 30 years from now if I'm wrong but uh from what our analysis was um there isn't as much developable land around 13 as there is around 12v and so um and we actually uh had a little panel of experts um Paul Connor was part of that but also some developers uh to say like you know what would um would one of these interchanges actually be an inducement to develop more in that area 13 not so much um maybe you know there just isn't a lot more area around 13 well be a little bit more I was like um I can't remember the exact number might have been five percent something increase in land development around that area so that I did think that that was first some additional growth beyond what is already projected so we also have some significant growth projected for South Burlington you know kind of consistent with what's been happening um and the zoning that exists today um of course you know that can change which is another reason we should monitor what happens because you know that will be another area change what happens with land development um in the city I'm sorry Megan I missed your hand up for a while there yeah thanks um doing some work with numbers on a survey on campus I'm very familiar with how numbers can be misleading in some ways and so for instance this exit 13 and exit 12 b ramps west of intersection I'm assuming that it goes from zero because currently there are right very few ramps that go on to 89 from that that that intersection or ramps west of of that intersection um so I just I want us to think more critically about those numbers that appear in the the hundreds um and what I do notice is that 12 b does take traffic off of Kennedy um I would love to see these numbers on 116 uh in addition to what we see here but just looking at the exit 13 spdi and exit 12 b for doors at north of intersection it doesn't seem to get close to the 17 percent reduction is that because it's further north where we see that reduction yes okay yeah it was up in the up by the u-mall where there was a more significant reduction reduction and that also you know there's other things happening right that um like we have garden street getting completed in there so that that could have been part of that factor as well so just to to think you know as everybody knows this this doors the street situation quite well that people will no longer turn left out of you mall as I understand as I recall david um telling us they won't be turning left out of you mall uh to go catch exit 14 they might be turning right uh instead and that would reduce that backup that goes all the way you know almost to to the high school actually when it's that that rush hour traffic in the afternoon where I am one of those people I I avoid dorset street at that time so I just I think that's the numbers don't tell the whole story and I think it would be more useful to think about wait times or you know the actual backup that occurs on dorset street there so looking further north of there what that decrease of 17 what that means is that you will no longer have that backup going all the way to the high school at about 3 30 at about the the time that school lets out until 4 30 or so can you see this graphic yes we can see it I'm going to try to zoom in a little bit um and um I'm trying to be a little responsive to Megan's uh points um so this is um actually it kind of skipped over the the change in delay um is is on this I think we set this this set of series of maps to you um and it you know delay the volume to capacity which is a little bit more um engineering look at it um and then uh just traffic volumes um and so yeah if you want to look at these maps a little bit more closely and we're certainly happy to have you know the consultant come in and talk to you more more deeply about this um and you know one of the things like here's 12 b um and uh and I think Megan's kind of brought this up a couple times you can see like this part of Heinzberg Road which is what this is so this is this is 89 right um you can see this getting like pretty dark red um so there's a major increase in traffic there major increase of traffic on this section of 89 um and so um and still some uh increases right around 14 still um so there definitely are things to move but then you can also see like some uh greens here where that's where traffic decreases on Heinzberg Road north of Kennedy um and you can see green on Willison Road I've had a reference to this um earlier and then if I scroll down I'm gonna skip over the 13 hybrid um the 13 SBDI um you can see uh heavier increases on 89 but significant decreases on Dorset north of Kennedy significant increases in traffic south of Kennedy on Dorset um and yeah Megan to your point um the other is like kind of an uptick of traffic right right west of the interchange but then decrease on the rest of 189 so it is worth looking at the whole picture um if you can get your head around it yeah and because there are I just whenever I look at this stuff I'm like there's just a lot of squeezing of balloons there's pluses of minuses going on all over the place um and definitely some concern about you know where we're at with capacity again on 89 with SBDI as well um and the first series um shows more of the delay uh so you know some increases in delay around around the a new interchange um I'm sure the same thing happened at 12 feet that's the question Charlie yeah Tom so a point that's been raised a couple of times is uh this has been presented as an either or but I really feel that now we're starting you started the conversation by by looking at these as future infrastructure improvements to address the needs of Vermont for 2050 and then beyond so did you do any modeling on not that it's going to happen simultaneously but thinking about phased approaches where maybe both of these things occur over a long period of time I mean again 2050 we're talking 30 years so do you have any types of modeling similar to how 12v and 13 will will work with each other over time as the community continues to grow um yeah so you're kind of uh uh taking us into the fall I mentioned we're going to focus a lot more on the non interchange improvements so that's plan a if you will the things that can be done in the shorter term and then what we're proposing to the advisory committee tomorrow is to have scenarios that we look at that have exit 14 improvement exit 13 SBDI and 12v to be analyzed this fall um and Tom you're right well we haven't looked at these things in combination we've been looking at them as singular investments and so this fall we'll have the opportunity to look at a polar package we were calling them bundles and we can see without the interchanges with one interchange with two interchanges how does this work together yeah because yeah we don't know we don't know what the future is going to be and there's certainly you know the climate challenges in front of us you know we know we need to do what we can to reduce greenhouse gases so that's going to be the focus in the short term and then the long term we'll see but have so at some point now and I'm going to try to get through the rest of the presentation real quick we are you know still looking for feedback on 12 or 13 but it's not as critical a question right now honestly my advice to you would be to have us come back in the fall but we have more of that a holistic look at this and see if you are you know what direction if any you want to weigh in at that point and I apologize for that because I know that probably puts you starting in your budget season and you know there may not be a lot of time for this so let us know how we can best engage with both groups exit 14 I haven't spent any time on we're looking at you know kind of tweaking the clover leaf design a little bit to make it a little safer for bicyclists and pedestrians we call it the enhanced clover leaf enhanced for bicyclists and pedestrians but it does squeeze in the ramps a little bit to slow down people both on and off and the diverging diamond you know is a totally different design that scored slightly better it also reduces capacity the most at exit 14 so it's a little bit of worst case scenario at 14 we're recommended to keep that in the analysis right now to the advisory committee tomorrow so and again we have the same maps that you saw for 12 b in 13 on 14 do you want to see the 14 designs or walk through those I would love to see them just briefly I'm not sure if other board members have had a chance to look at them they're obviously less impactful directly on the the high school middle school but but they're important too yeah so here's the diverging diamond idea so this is exit 14 right you know 89 going north south here and willison road east west so this would get rid of the clover ramps and kind of bring everything all the traffic movements into or most of the traffic movements into two traffic signals there's a few things happening here that kind of seem to benefit all modes from just a safety standpoint one is we're moving we're getting rid of that one traffic signal that's like 100 yards away from dorset street right for the the northbound off ramp and so and moving this traffic signal further west and pairing it with another one allows for kind of smoother traffic flow it's easier to get these signals to work together than what we have there today and and the other thing for bicyclists and pedestrians it allows bicyclists and pedestrians to cross with traffic signals and you know and really kind of avoid there is there is two just like at 13 there is like if you want to go northbound from willison road this movement right here is is still free flow so you do have to cross that without the signal stopping everybody but then as you get over here you you get the signal protection and you can even go cross like go from the north the holiday in the staples with with traffic signal protection so that seemed like and bigger shared use paths on both sides that are actually you know not in the travel lane not a sidewalk but but a real shared use path 10 foot wide for most of it and we're thinking 14 foot wide in the center median where everything would come so I think that's pretty quick summary of what the diverging diamond and by the way this is the same design that is being done at exit 16 so even though this seems new fangled and I guess I didn't talk about the virgin diamond right you you come west onto willison road and you cross over the other side if you want to go southbound and that that southbound movement ends up being free flow so you get some free flow movements that work better but this does have a significant reduction in capacity the clover leaf is the highest capacity interchange you could have and so one of the things when we looked at this by itself there was a concern that this was going to cause traffic to divert to Winooski Colchester have and line kill and road and back to Tom's point one of the reasons to look at this in combination is if 13 or 12 b takes enough traffic out of this interchange maybe traffic isn't pushed to those other locations and maybe the system works better so sorry that was a lot of stuff to talk about the enhanced clover leaf a couple things going on I think I got a zoomed in version it's bringing the ramps in so they're a little less free flow I mentioned kind of slowing down traffic where bicycles and pedestrians are crossing the other thing that we were talking about here was really kind of adding a lane under the bridge so that the traffic that wants to get off on these ramps and on from the ramps are protected from the through traffic through this interchange and you know they can merge more safely a little bit north and south of the existing interchange so that's more of a safety improvement on the main line of 89 because if you've gone through that interchange you know people the weeds there is going to be challenging you know people are slowing down to get off and speeding up to get on and so we're looking at ways to make that a little safer so and still add a shared use path really widen that bridge to add a path and this doesn't mean that the the bike head bridge that's proposed from what you mall to staples wouldn't happen this was just another option just as an aside any questions on these designs at 14 all right I feel like I've overwhelmed you and so my job is done and one question I had charlie that was not specifically about 14 but was um was about um I don't know it's like in the next stage we'll get a clearer picture of you know as mega was saying there are a lot of different numbers about different amounts of traffic north south east west of that intersection of dorset and kennedy what was really important from a school district perspective in my mind is how many more crossings of that intersection are we talking about you know especially at drop-off and pickup time from school just because there there is a lot of traffic of our middle schoolers and our high schoolers back and forth to dorset park as you know having had had children go through and it's already kind of a dangerous intersection for them so I guess trying to get a better understanding of what that would look like from a safety perspective I don't know if that's a deeper level of study or something or maybe that's a number that's just not in the presentation that you know you could share with us you know what the the exit 13 would do there and and then what um what the potential impact is you know and I know this is very specific but on traffic that's coming off of kennedy and turning on to dorset or coming up dorset at pickup and drop-off time and I know these are very school specific issues but um this is what um you know concerns us potentially about 13 and again the same information about 12b you know whether that would change as you said you know the balloon squeezing the balloon and and making traffic different um I have to say it's it's challenging because I live in butler farm at creek village now and seeing that traffic on hindsburg road you know on a personal level is challenging but then from a school perspective the obvious impact seems to be would be from potentially exit 13 right there at that intersection which is already challenging um the other thing that I'm not sure you know I'm sure you probably do at the stage that the school district will be moving offices um central office into 575 dorset street when the city moves its offices to the new city hall library on market street and so there will be increased I'm assuming there's going to be increased traffic for our staff you know back and forth across that intersection at various times of day um throughout the school year as well so really traffic right at that intersection and understanding that better and what those potential pedestrian and bike conflicts are with traffic coming on and off of kennedy drives right there at 13 was what sprung to mind for me at first other questions from board members yeah I'm glad to and I kind of took notes on you know issues that we should look at more closely for the fall when we come back to that's very helpful to us so thank you yeah I also just wanted to mention and again I'm sure you've looked at this but um emergency services right there at the corner of dorset and kennedy um that that can be challenging already at at pick up or drop off time um if there's a lot of traffic just from school use um at that intersection and I wondered how their ability to get in and out would be impacted by any of these options other other issues that you're wondering about that we should look into more David did you have others or other board members Bridget I think you hit on some some important ones from my perspective I don't again I think as Bridget said it we haven't had a as thorough opportunity to review these them as she said Corey did share and they are available to us so again I to echo a little bit of the concern related to increased load on dorset street specifically south of dorset and kennedy again in the near proximity the high school middle school campus again we I think important for people to know we you know we have over 1600 you know students and staff on that site um and um it is problematic there um and certainly certainly I I see that 13 may help some uh some flow there but still that south of the kennedy dorset is problematic um particularly in the morning around drop off time when we're getting kids to and from campus again rick markot does have to access through that intersection from south portion south of kennedy drive and you know there's things that people don't often take into consideration dorset up to dorset park has a pretty significant elevation change and in the winter months when things are again our road crew is a great job but there are some times where you pop up just down off of coming off of dorset park and if you come down that and cars are stopped there there's many many occasions where we have some you know some accidents is there um bridget did address a lot of the again I don't know how many of you I obviously city folks know but how many times our fire department and rescue are deployed out of there our high school and middle school will tell you pretty regularly in and out and um I worry about that intersection again south it you indicated about a 30 street 33 increase in flow there on that on that so that's a concern for me um I would say I don't know enough about how you're flowing the bike and pedestrian traffic but right now if your mom or dad wanting to send your child to school which is what we want to promote it seems to me that that interchange uh you know dorset and kennedy or south of of kennedy seems to be like I probably would say I don't really want my kids to be traveling there because it's going to get further busy um again that's not to say that you know we have a lot of consciousness drivers but the more load you put on there you get a little bit concerned um yeah and currently you know just that intersection south of uh kennedy drive backs up all the way sometime all the way back to swiss street and will clog that totally down um and so I um I definitely see that maybe getting worse from what I'm seeing um I in general I again I don't know all of the ins and outs from from I think my perspective on the school side anything that can help divert some activity away from the dorset kennedy area would be helpful and as many of you know that that can get really problematic there um and again right now I don't know when this was studied I'm sure you know knowing charlie it's been studied for a long time so we know that the umal is not in full capacity right now we know that pandemic so I imagine these numbers are probably a little bit dated maybe um or not not up to speed with current numbers because probably the best numbers you have about a two years ago probably I don't know yeah and I think they're probably even a few years older than that like pre-pandemic and yeah so and that's why I can't overemphasize the notion of we're going to need to keep monitoring what's happening because you you know how things evolve helpful helpful information charlie thanks for thanks for walking us through it it's all I have um I just there's a question um now can I get to it um that brian had his voice isn't working so let me read it to you if I can get back to it it said I really he said my question is sort of a follow on to megan's last comment I don't really know what percentage increases in traffic will mean to heinsberg road south of kennedy and to dorset south of kennedy is traffic a big issue there now comparable to dorset by umal williston and kennedy which I know better yeah that's um that's good and honestly I'm not um we probably have some numbers I don't know that it was put in context um we'll look at this more robustly for the fall and come back with some better answers for you and I think that's a good question like you know a 30 increase on 100 cars is a lot different than a 30 increase on a thousand cars right if that's the point you're making and you know and is it congested now uh that makes a difference if it's a 30 percent increase but if it's not congested now it you know 30 percent increase isn't a big deal right although I think both locations have some congestion so we'll try to look at some different ways to express that story and help humanize our engineering analysis so I appreciate the question and these thoughts and and do feel free however you want to communicate to me you know david and kevin have my email and you're certainly welcome you know email or text me anytime happy to uh take any more input whenever you think about it so I think another issue that is so hard to predict and so that's why you do need to keep monitoring this is that um housing growth in in south brolington will not be stopping for the next 50 years we could look very very differently and you know businesses um in the meadowlands or you know if this beta technology expands the way they're talking about and we have you know 200 more jobs um the dynamics of all these roads really do change so that's um certainly your challenge and I don't um well you probably won't be doing it for 50 years charlie but someone will I know I never know but uh yeah and it's our collective challenge right I mean it's uh it's a community you know we're all on this together so I really appreciate the partnership and I'm sorry Bridget yeah sorry Helen just jogged my memory and and I guess it's a tricky question because it doesn't exactly fall necessarily on your purview it's kind of somewhere between you and the demographer and you know all of us which one of these options could potentially increase the number of students more so I guess somebody had asked the question earlier in the meeting you know which one impacts housing development more which one potentially provides for more housing um or if either of them do and um what that follow on impact could be for the schools um because we really are at a stage right now with two of our elementary schools where we are at capacity and the high school is over capacity right now um and so it's just it's just part of the calculus in terms of if we were to give you feedback as a board that would need to sort of be taken into consideration just a quick 13 didn't have a significant impact on housing I think 12 b because there's some more developable land there but it wasn't huge maybe I say huge relative in my mind it was like maybe 50 houses um additional beyond what's expected so but there so there is there is some additional I'm sorry Tom here Burkhardt just reminded me of part of our previous conversations one of our many conversations with Charlie Baker about this over the past year so I think in one of the most recent discussions uh council member you were raising the notion of in the arguments against 12 b about rezoning those lands to allow for more housing and and density and so on right now it's all tech park and so it's all industrial and not there is no housing I don't know if there's no housing permitted or so on but um I'm wondering can chair Burkhardt if that notion would factor into the school board's thoughts if 12 b didn't go in there and then the city changed what we have had zoned for many years for both sides of the interstate right there to allow for a great deal of housing it seems like that could exacerbate the concern that or I don't know about concern but it could definitely address some of what you were just touching upon yeah I mean obviously any new any changes in zoning or you know would have some impact on what potential capacity or potential capacity needs for the district would be not to say that we would be you know negative on something because it put more students into the system that's totally fine we would just need to as a community plan for that and make sure that we were thinking about that as we were choosing you know it's it's a smaller factor than some of these others but if we are creating new jobs and creating you know a need for more housing and there's space for that housing to be built and especially if we're talking about more affordable housing that really has put more kids into the system over the last couple of years and we would meet it takes a while as you've seen we've been at the master planning and visioning at the school district for over a decade it takes a while to get those plans in place and make sure that that capacity is there um so that we can continue to provide a quality education so yeah I'm trying to keep my thoughts focused directly on the the school aspect of it um so those are the the questions that I had as I was thinking about these different options can I make one data request which is um if the school district has projections for uh school population um if you can yeah David I don't know if you have those if you can share those with me I do yeah that would be yeah we have them updated every every year to 18 months or so so we had them just a few months ago updated the only challenge with them is that the demographer in trying to be as accurate as possible um takes into account really only things that are permitted that have already kind of gone through the permitting process and are pretty sure to happen and that's been a little bit of a challenge for us in the past because that misses out on some of the it's really hard to predict what those longer term bigger plans will or will not happen but we have uh we've seen a bigger increase in the student population and we expected six or seven years ago um because more things have come to fruition than he assumed would come to fruition and it's it's also there seems to be a slight quirk that he has told us multiple times that single family um uh multifamily housing doesn't produce a lot of kids for a school system his emphasis is really on turnover of single family homes and new single family homes but we really had a big increase in the last um year 18 months because of just one building on market street going in that's multifamily affordable housing and um I think there are plans on the books that we're hoping to increase density and increase you know more multifamily housing um just from an environmental perspective and and from a smart planning perspective so yeah those are just some things to keep in mind when you're looking at the demographers projections they are really based on what was permitted um and really definitely happening in his mind at the time that he built those projections so that's why we continue to kind of update with him every um every year or so. Tim has a question yeah well yeah I just want to make a comment about the development of long 116 and and for the school board members that haven't heard me say this before what's in the pipeline now is cider mill 2 they're starting to dig that's going to be at least 150 units right there that will take years to complete hill farm which is on the south uh western large plot of land from the interstate right at that interchange will be a mixture of commercial and residential um it'll be under the new iz post iz probably conservation pud rules um and don't forget there's a brian hillside farm which is probably about 30 percent complete when that's all built out and then the rye property probably has about another 10 homes to go so in terms of housing there's nothing that's going to be done south of cider mill 2 except for maybe a few homes because of dirt capital and um the eclair farm but that's it right from north of eclair it's whatever's going to be that that is the open land that you see today or is that being dug up or that will be dug up in the future and you can see that it's a large plot of land there are possible properties that are north of the pizzic alley property off of tilly drive as well so those are all potential areas that could see either housing and or commercial so just to put that in your mind for if you look at a map of what's going on in that region of the city thank you thank you very much i really appreciate the time and uh we are going to do a lot more of work on this over the summer and uh i'll i'll get in touch with uh david and uh and certainly heaven's successor uh we'll get in front of the city council and school board up to you if you want to have a joint conversation um that this is great for me all of you in one place but whatever works for you great well thank you yeah thank you and you know how to find him so if you have questions please feel free thank you very thank you very much charlie you're very thank you charlie patient and amenable to really answering your questions thanks charlie thank you the next and i think final item is the city update on completion of the self-growing in public library and city hall um and move in schedule so is kevin you're gonna give that yeah thanks Helen um just a real quick update the numbers really haven't changed the schedule hasn't changed much at all since we last spoke we're still looking at the um the public library moving in long about the last week in june um about the 23rd uh they're projected to start moving in they'll be closed uh as a public library for the week proceeding that to prepare for the move um over at the mall but then there'll be a little bit of a break as the library gets um settled in and then the um city clerk's office uh will lead the move into the um the rest of the building and um city hall will move over about the second week in um july so um all should be moved over by the 15th or so of july 15th 16th something like that i don't have a calendar what days those are but everything should be moved over we're looking at a grand opening on friday the 23rd of july um and so uh this is pretty much the schedule we were given last fall so they're holding pretty close to that uh everything's going along pretty much as planned you know a few things have popped up that the contractors have dealt with but by and large everything's going as planned so um very exciting stuff the building's gorgeous if you haven't had a chance to um take a tour would encourage you to do so it's really phenomenal yeah we're happy to set up a tour um if we can find a good time for you folks to to do it better after three o'clock when the when the staff are gone there or the workers are gone so okay is there any other business or any questions about the time frame or all righty so i guess we can adjourn again thank you very much for um squeezing this in i know you're really busy but we wanted to um provide the information to you and when you have anything to comment we'll be happy to hear it and in some ways it sounds like there's no rush because they're going to look at both of the um interchanges and come back in no in the fall with um some additional data and again it's um 30 to 40 years out or 20 to 30 years out so we could be looking real different as a community um maybe you know you'll have built a new high school somewhere else because that one is too small you know i don't know there's a whole lot of um of things that can happen um in in those years so i nobody should be panting or holding their breath or having high anxiety i think it's a long way off but thank you very much thank you thank you oh good night everybody thank you do you need a motion to adjourn do we need oh sure a motion to adjourn so move a second yep we got it and all in favor and i hope we see you um at the grand opening it's not a person okay good night everybody good night everyone thanks i see you