 Hey Jerry. Hey Matt, how you doing? Good. I miss our one-on-one time buddy. I know exactly. I can leave. No Scott, it's always good to see you buddy. Yeah. Not really. John, awesome. Good morning. Hey Scott, where in Michigan are you? Are you northern Michigan? Oh near a past Traverse City. Just south of Traverse City, a place called Interlochen. Yeah, I know where Interlochen is. I'm gonna have a summer home right here. Grand Rapids-ish. Kalamazoo. Kalamazoo. Kirk and Lake actually. Nice. Yeah, so my wife's originally from Kalamazoo area and her family's all from Detroit and stuff. But yeah. We've got more Michiganders here. Yeah, so Michigan, I'm a Wisconsin. How are you? Oh, you have spotted cow. The greatest beer in the history of the world. Oh Scott, I got to bring you some beer. I'm telling you, the greatest beer in the world is this beer from New England called Treehouse. You have to drive to the place. It's like a pilgrimage to get it. So I will figure out a way of sending some. So in the comments, in the chat, why don't you send me your, the common sense, right? What are we calling that chat now? You mean the Mattermost? Yeah, the Mattermost. Just Mattermost. Agora. Thank you. The C.S.C. Agora is what? C.S.C. Agora. I don't know if you're in that yet, Scott, but send me a chat with your address and I'll see if I can throw a couple of cans into a box. You won't be disappointed. Have you ever had M16? Yeah, that's from there. It's, right, or is it M, not M16, M55? There's a road in Michigan that there's a beer named after. And when you pour it, it almost looks like Tang. Oh, I thought you were going to say the foam shaped itself into the hand of Michigan. Yeah, it does. Everything in Michigan is it. It was like very good. Isn't Tang like bright orange? It is. It is a bright orange beer. All natural. But it is. It's actually, it's like, yeah, yeah, hazy. All natural, unnatural. All natural. I'll find it. I like beer. I don't know if anyone else likes beer. I like beer a lot. Haven't you ever drunk a lot of beer? Sorry, that somehow echoed badly. I mean, there's some people who like beer who like just to drink a lot of beer, you know, they put the blood lights down, you know, or the, or there's, but then there's the people who like the taste. They get the plying to the elder and plying to the, what is that? What's the other San Francisco beer? There's a whole bunch of San Francisco beers. There's a lot of old Rasputin, old Rasputin, Thelonious Monk. Yeah. For us jazz fans. I'm gonna get my light going here. Excellent. Yeah. So you're in the dark. Nice to see everybody. See you too, Jerry. How are you doing? Okay. How's your mom? Little funky. Mom, mom, mom is in hospice care. So I don't know how long she lasts at this point. And it's just a weird experience to be in the middle of that process. So I got a lot of good advice and good conversations and some books recommended and all of that. So that's been really good. Yeah. It can be transformative. Yeah. So in any event. And I hear it's your birthday today also. And it is that. Yeah. No way. I'm turning 29. Who knew? Again. Yeah. Where's your violin? Exactly. I'm not sure we should be singing here. It feels like Groundhog Day. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday dear Jerry. Happy birthday to you. It's gonna be like Zoom chorus. It's gonna be fun today. I think we need some singing lessons. Thank you so much. We could do like the Luxeterna choir or whatever that was. Forgetting his name. Like who did the early chorus on the intertubes. Yeah. I heard a story about the happy birthday song that it actually is still owned and was written by someone and they get that's why restaurants sing their own ones because then they don't have to pay for the rights. And the Boy Scouts got sued because they were singing happy birthday or something. It's a terrible intellectual property story. It's like take me out to the ballgame. I was in the Brill building in New York, which is a famous music entertainment place. And right next door to our studio was the little office which was still maintained by the air of the author of take me out to the ballgame. Anyway. Yeah. It's like a little toll booth. An intellectual toll booth. So I might be the only one who's toasting you happy birthday Jerry with a glass of wine because this is in India. You're the only one. I love it. You know it's after five o'clock somewhere in the world all the time. Yeah. So it's it's like what 8 30 at night in it's absolutely wine time. So happy birthday Jerry. Thank you. I really appreciate it. I'm doing a little caffeine for the morning. Everybody there I can see is thanks for recommendation. Can I there's a couple books I just bought on my Kindle on recommendations. I'll mention them real quick. They're really good. One of them is visions trips and crowded rooms. Who and what you don't who and what you see before you die by David Kessler. David Kessler is a really great person about grief and dying. And then the other one is called walking each of us home by Ram Das and Mirania. What's her last name. I can't see it on the title here. Mirabai Bush. Yeah. So either Meher. No. Oh yeah. I do you know and I know we're going to do our check ins but I think that there is we talked about snips early on Jerry and our and our conversations with each other and how the world has been snipping experiences from each other and sort of putting them into their little commodified little boxes right and by by snipping the human relationships of things from each other we've we've kind of lost a sense of ourselves and I think you know the process of death and dying and end of life and all that stuff is something that has been greatly snipped from society right and you know so in the you know maybe to bring this into an OGM E kind of conversation you know I think it's I think it's important to to think about the letting and and that moment of transition right we have to give up you know and and lose parts of ourselves to become parts of ourselves and I just think it's a profound experience and I know it's tough but it's one of those things that I've gone through a couple of times with really dear people in my life and I wouldn't I wouldn't I wouldn't trade it for anything so I wish you all the best in this in this part of your journey. Yeah thank you well in 1983 long ago my dad died all of a sudden after elective kidney stones surgery and that was very sudden and unexpected it was like whoa he went into the hospital you know quite healthy because they detected kidney stones in an x-ray and didn't didn't survive the night for strange reasons that we could never actually quite figure out so that was a really long time ago but that but that was just from one moment to the next and that's shaped my life a whole bunch and in lots of different ways and it was my earliest experience of major loss and then my mom's decline right now has been sort of this slow bumpy downhill ride over five years of first you know losing a word or two here and there and then losing some logic and then all sorts of things until a little bit over two weeks ago a stroke which which robbed her not only of speech but also of the ability to swallow and so yeah and so there's a whole bunch there about how we see ourselves how we hold ourselves what makes what shapes us what makes us some of the things you're just saying that and then and then also it makes you it makes me face my own mortality which took me in the shower this morning to a very ogme place you know our legacy of what we saw what we think what we knew what we how we expressed ourselves in in cyberspace now used to be that they'd like gather up your letters and and lucky them they'd have a couple of cases or a couple of rooms full of documents and they kind of had your world but now you know we're endlessly replicated in cyberspace and endlessly lost in the memory hole so I was busy thinking about the the fellow that you were talking to who has early onset Alzheimer's and wanted to memorialize his own approach about you know the world etc um yeah hey kevin couldn't see on the call jerry do you have siblings i'm an only kid uh yeah my my parents are different kind of tough my parents used to check that they figured out what caused it so they stopped that's a good one so i'm an only kid yeah it's uh and and just along the lines of kind of history and experience and memory and all that i had a pretty blessed privileged childhood i had a pretty happy childhood wasn't abused and have those kinds of things the one thing i wish my parents had done and grandparents had done on both sides of the family is tell me the hard stories of their lives they all wanted me to have a golden childhood my grandmother's my grandmother spoke german so her nickname for me was gold the golden one and they just wanted me to have like a happy childhood and my my my mother her brother and their and their parents escaped germany in 39 just barely just barely like one of the last ships out of hamburg and i will never know the full story of what happened etc and it would have been really helpful for me to figure that out and and strangely since sorry i'm on a little bit of a reminiscent thing so my hobby from age oh 11 12 to age 1415 was building little model airplanes of world war two i was for some reason insatiably curious about world war two in retrospect i think i was somehow sniffing and digging and i have i had a spiritual sense of some sort that there was history here that i needed to understand i don't know but i wasn't attracted to jets in the space age i would like you could go hobby wise to lots of different things but i was going back to world war two and then there's this bitter thing where we lived with my grandparents in berlin for about 10 months when i was 13 i think and i would build little airplanes sitting next to my grandmother in the kitchen as she made me my breakfast of lunch to send me off to school and i'm pretty sure i was putting little little swastika decals on meserschmitts right next to her completely unaware of what it might mean or what was going on or anything like that i mean i'm sure i did that and so it really when it when that was kind of hard she never said something about that that you recall alone nobody ever told me hey dude all this not you know all the little swastikas are probably all around here nobody nobody said hey stop they just wanted to tell her but but i was sort of obsessed about that era in history and i read a bunch of stuff i had gi joke big you know all that kind of stuff i became quite the pacifist given that like i had work toys like crazy and my dad taught me how to shoot and use the load his own ammo and all that kind of stuff i think that informed me it's a pacifist a lot just understanding the possibilities do you think that's related to the voldemort idea don't say his name in the sense that and so in other words well if you just don't say his name then he doesn't exist anymore for for not talking about the history not talking about history yeah and if we just box that up and and we never speak of it i think that sounds right and i go back to a more primitive notion of trauma and whether how people cope with trauma or deal with trauma and my family just never believed in psychology psychiatry approaching these things dealing with them my mom never dealt with them so late late late in life she started getting very very paranoid and i'm pretty sure it was because they had to hide and all kinds of other things happened but i'll never find out about but but all those things sort of come back to haunt you there's a good book called the body keeps the score a book my mom probably never have read like wouldn't have believed in i was thinking recently about orpheus and iridichi and how the role is that he can bring her back from the dead but he can't look back at it and i thought that would kill her and whether the actual myth is saying don't look back at your past because it drags you down which which bridges over nicely into another topic that is really near and dear to my heart which is how do societies cope well with tragic history with genocides with depop you know with occupation you know the two original crimes of the united states caused an enormous cultural rift here because the far right doesn't want to talk about them and the far left is sort of a little bit obsessive about them and the best of ways because we haven't dealt with them yet so so then an immediate question is what how do we process trump once he's not no longer president how do we process trump and the history of trump and trump's network of people in a world that's shifting further to the right and then i will say that this is a reason why ogm exists is to figure out how to have these conversations so that we don't tip into um a total authoritarian regime worldwide i might i it's interesting that in that in that moment that you were talking jerry the thing that sort of flashed through my brain was this idea that that there is a type of grieving that's going on or is not being allowed to go on right now about about a certain sentimentality um related to america right so the death of uh you know or the loss of innocence of this these notions of our meta narratives of you know of all men are you know all people are created equal right um you know the narrative of um manifest destiny and the narrative of rugged individualism and these big you know these big things that we've we've grown up to believe and and the fact that we're coming to terms with both maybe the fact that these were truth only in faith as doug was saying not truth in fact and that maybe there's a loss of that you know and that losing process and allowing yourself those old parts of yourself to die i think is incredibly powerful and and i think a lot of people that i know in our fair state of michigan who are really angry and we're big trump supporters feel like america is dying and i think we have to you know we have to we have to let it go right so that we can create the next version of it and i think that that process is very difficult and that's so it's to vilify the trump side to call it you know could be could be a miss could be a miss in terms of allowing some people to grieve for for an idea that is past its life right i understand that the chrysalis process is very messy for the caterpillar yeah squishy yeah so i don't know i can you imagine though i i was i like the idea and i was i was just picturing a very respectful funeral but then then right away i said i you know that'll that'll trigger that'll trigger a violent reaction um you mean for the country john well for the country one side speed up that they're right away as soon as you do that and you know so you need you need to have a kind of a a weirdly hybrid ceremony that is simultaneously a funeral and a baptism well maybe it's a wake maybe it's a wake because okay wake and a baptism together i mean if well i mean awake awake in some ways is uh you know i i love i love our linguistic uh uh scholars here to kind of opine on that where the origin of that word is but you know i was very young i attended and i you know kind of like a traditional irish wake and these things were were an awakening of the spirit of the soul of of of life and it was a celebration of what you know in some ways of a life but also of life to come of living and um you know i guess you're right it you know this idea of a funeral and a baptism but it's a it's a it's its own form of a resurrection of what we care to what we care to continue to to believe in but also a letting go of of the old right it's it's that dualism it's catharsis in a way maybe in the work i'm doing it's much easier right um you know the racial wealth gap and the things i'm working around and it's just much easier right now there's a thing next week it's kind of interesting it's pension funds looking at the systemic racism in their portfolios that they've never looked at before and the unintended consequences and stuff and that's it's really kind of a groundbreaking thing i mean it's pension funds responsibility has been fiduciary responsibility you know and now it's like oh what are the other impacts that there it's different things are cracking open i think are pretty good there are two seminars on deep decolonization happening i think today from completely different entities that anybody can sign up with and go listen to and it's super interesting what's happening this one of the silver linings of the trump era is that all the stuff that was seething under the surface has burst onto the surface and is visible now to us and we've normalized some very difficult language and conversations which is terrible in some ways and then also kind of liberating in other ways because we can have this conversation and also a lot of the people who are just being mute and felt muted and therefore were cut away from social discourse felt liberated and jumped in and we sort of know where now know who they are and where they are in a way but but how we deal with this is crucial like really crucial there at the end of the civil war Lincoln before being shot talks to Grant about the peace and he basically he he says we can't have what happened in France we can't have the reign of terror we can't have beheadings you know post revolution we need to have peace so let them let them you know drop their weapons and go back home and don't prosecute them and in retrospect that may have been a lousy idea so the origin of wake seems to have been related to watch as in night watch and vigil and can just posted that that etymology as the the instant you started talking I can put that in the chat so let's keep going well you know to me whether in the US we're now facing how deep slavery was the destruction of the Native Americans the incredible stuff with the farmers in the 1880s the things like the Pullman strike and the incredible stuff around factories the factory culture and public protest when you look at it all America looks like a big hook of land with a few white guys in Washington trying to put the lid on and keep things going is the country sustainable if it loses its myths only if we don't only if we don't connect those myths to future myths right legacy I think is the ability to connect the past to the future not you know names on buildings and and so you know we have to replace old mythologies with new mythologies it's like a hermit crab won't leave its shell until it has a new home but it will outgrow it and you know basically strangle itself the hermit crab doesn't bring the old shell on with it let's go but that's what I'm saying you have to let go of some of those old mythologies and you have to but you have to have new mythologies to step into I think right a piece of what's happening is what we're rediscovering older mythologies that are actually quite good for community and quite good for the commons and like Native American belief systems many of them many many many of them were terrific for the land were really good about community they figured things out around the world and my primitive theory of history is that we used to know how to live in community on the commons and we broke that and then we tried to basically salt the earth and demonize those people and make sure nobody went back to that and not that not that I want to hit rewind and go back and reinstitute that world I'm not trying to do that but I'm saying that we've got this wisdom on hand we've just been ignoring the people that are holding a lot of it and we're not we're doing a terrible job of integrating those ways of knowing with modernity and with technology a miserable job go ahead Matt I yeah again um you know and I've been reading the tour and those sorts of things I mean those ideas might not work at the scale of nine billion the question becomes in the way that they were originally conceived now we could say that that means we need to descale you know the number of people that we have in you know over time and you know through natural attrition but I think the question is is again I want to want about legacy how how deep do we reach back into our wisdom and how do we draw that so that it moves into the into the future in a meaningful way in the context that exists today right and I think that's the that's the translation work in some ways of um of ogm right ogm is a it sits at this interesting nodal point and wants to at least in my mind wants to sit between old world new world but also between deep ancient you know um indigenous knowledge and the application of that knowledge into into a different version of what modernity might look like right and I think even modern is wrong yeah just a brief comment and then over to class um so what part of treating the land around you as sacred doesn't scale when you are in um and I'd love to hear you know Sunil you know your thoughts here but there are some places in the world where we have packed human beings so close together like in chicken coops um and that's just the way that it is this you know that we think we sit here in America and everyone has all this land the reality is is there are you know millions and millions of people in small places and there is no land to be sacred anymore and I think that that's part of the problem unless we completely open the globe and redistribute that nine billion you know across the you know but I think that you need a a different type of whole different type of structure and maybe maybe I shouldn't but that's what I mean the land is it's hard to treat the land sacred when when you just don't have the space um I think the space is totally a complication and we don't need to solve for this but but but I like this I think this is an important thread I like it a lot I can also say that hold on um Klaus then Kevin then Doug yeah I mean we can also look at cultures that have lived on the same land for thousands of years without destroying it I mean you look at England today you look at Italy Germany you know they're perfectly self-sustaining and they have maintained their soil they have maintained their capacity to feed themselves so I don't know that density is necessarily telling us that it can't be safe in the country right that's a magic a sense of maturity for specific cultures but I want what I wanted to move into is the time that we are experiencing right now is a rerun of the industrial revolution and fast forward you know you have people who have businesses that they may have inherited over generations that are no longer viable because everything is changing so quickly around us in every single sector not just agriculture but in every single sector when you look at the disruption that amazon is causing for example it's massive you know and there's no national dialogue that helps people understand what is happening and feel that there's anything they can do about it you know it's just sort of happening and the frustration that is causing uh is is enormous and it it was leading to World War One and because the aftermath of World War One was botched up it was leading to World War Two you know and and that's exactly the moment in time where you know right now this could blow up at any given moment thank you um Kevin then Doug I really recommend the book Extreme Economies it's pretty interesting uh it shows how you know a refugee camp in Syria can really be a good place to live and do business and work with the other and other more managed refugee camps kids and then wild parts of the Panama that are unsafe and other places that are wild that are safe and you know it gets down it basically gets into ostroms principles of using resources if you look at these things uh as you know these are some of these are economies that emerging from like the tsunami in Thailand etc and it's really interesting to see what emerges and how things emerge that can work where you don't think that they have any resources you know like a Syrian refugee camp but they there's principles of sharing in and and reciprocity that work there and then there's principles that don't work in other refugee camps so it's like they have it looks like you have nothing but it's working in other places it looks like they have nothing and it's not working it's really interesting book thank you Kevin that sounds great I've never heard of it um and also um let's pretend we have a huge amount of money and apparently modern monetary theory says we can just print as much money as we want and it doesn't matter because we're the world's reserve currency which is an argument I cannot understand but let's pretend we had a whole bunch of money most of these problems would break with too much money because a lot of money is basically a honey a honeypot for for people who understand how to suck money out of out of institutional budgets and that doesn't actually lead to fixing any problems so so in many cases sort of meter or constraints lead to community and the requirement to you either do that or you die or you don't make it through I think in different ways uh Doug you've been patiently co-hand I'm struck by how when we're discussing a problem oh like capital or like corporations or like what democracy is that people do not most when I say people as most people that I interact with don't have an instinct to go to the history to figure out where the thing came from the result is they treat things like corporations as though they are in time always in there always will be there and they're not modifiable by human effort and I think thinking historically gives a tremendous amount of leverage on the present towards the future without it one's less of feeling the things are just the way they are and you can't do anything about it can add something really quick on that we did our show kept Europe uh at the Burst van Brilage in Amsterdam which is where capital markets were invented and uh it was they were invented because they needed to share risk with people they didn't know and the spice merchants were breaking up their cargos into like 12 different ships so that some would get through as a way of mitigating risk and you know with there to say it's not a force of nature it was there to solve a problem that you know markets exist to trust people you don't know and you know then they they're treated like their tsunamis or whatever and anyway it was we were there to make a point that this is where the idea began super interesting how they did it so Jerry you and I had a nice long chat yesterday about this whole whole whole concept of external versus internal right so the conscious mind versus the unconscious a subconscious mind and much of what I and Matt actually asked me to try and answer this question about density and how does land become sacred if you don't really have the land and when people are packed in a certain density my view on that is that it's actually something to do with culture more than anything else it's not the structural problem it's a cultural problem so as long as we are all for ourselves a very selfish way of looking at it that I need to keep acquiring everything then this density becomes a huge problem but as long as it's we over me right if the culture itself the whole culture of that that particular region or that particular geographical or if you look at India for example I mean many of us in this generation and possibly going forward into the next generation I've actually forgotten our roots we but at the same time we are very fortunate because you know there are many things that you imbibe because you live in this environment and whether your conscious mind accepts it or not you kind of are in a sharing mode most of the time right which is what I think probably would be the answer to you know how do people manage in in such dense dense impoverished conditions with very low sanitation hygiene etc etc and the population is still exploding right it's not going it's not stopping so I guess it has a lot to do with culture more than structure and I think the machine oriented thinking the the industrial thinking is all about men as machines which is why there's so much of a focus on structure and less on on the internal biology or the internal psychology of people so we you and I talked a little bit about the Vedantic concepts right I guess a lot of this question about America Trump and what's happening there is something that India has actually been through in the early part of our independence where you know this the whole thing about rural uneducated etc that is what the political system actually leveraged to stay in power and today I think from whatever little I know of what has happened in America and the whole polarization that happened it's just that like Jerry you said it's actually just bubbled up to the surface it's not that it wasn't there it's just bubbled up to the surface with a guy like Trump at the helm right I don't know I mean that's that's about it by the way very thanks for getting in this group today I was you know I was a little nervous about you know being in this kind of an August gathering but thank you very much for welcoming me and I think I would like to be a part of this if you guys think it's thanks for being here Sunny I really appreciate it August was a couple months ago we're now in December so it's a wholly different group all right one of the things about the land is it's a very vague concept it's why I like Latour's view of the critical zone the skin that's on the earth as the place for all life and the known universe is and that we need to take care of it and it's it's a concrete physical limited beautiful structure that can orient our concerns so I I did a short video a while ago I think I've mentioned on one of the previous OGM calls a long ago I'll find it and post it here but it basically says the root of the word ecology and economy is the same root is oikos and oikos is the household and so why do we think that economy and economics and ecology are so different and so much in conflict and my amateur theory was that they have a different sense of the size of the household in economic it's every household is me and my immediate nuclear family in a zero-sum game to try to acquire resources so we don't die hungry and starve and we've been told that if only if each of our little units acts in a greedy impulsive manner and tries to maximize our own self-interest that the system has an invisible hand that magically wafts over this and will straighten things out and makes things work over time and that scale is good and in ecology we think the house is the pale thin fragile layer on the planet that houses us and that we actually need to take care of that house and so in ecology we're more unified toward the maintenance of a much larger house and so for me the scripts running in our heads are the difference between which house we see and which house we're trying to defend or do something about or whatever else go ahead Doug okay for the two words the logos means natural law and nomos means man-made law and so economy is a man-made structure and it seems to me that the idea that it was household management can be brought into the modern period where the household is the earth and the task of the nomos is to reintegrate humans back into the critical zone in a meaningful way okay thank you Doug that is everything well I could go on no just I just want I just want what you said right there I just want that playing over and over I just want that right on my wall yeah it was beautiful thank you there's so many really interesting etymological things like science is from the same root of scissors it's from cutting things apart and religion is really you leave you is binding so science is so so religion is the rebinding of things and science is the cutting a part of things right um so many so many things are kind of what they are if you if you peek into the the word origins one of the things that's striking about economy is the nomos in early Greek was nomia which actually meant equal distribution so equal distribution was considered a principle and it was coming about as the herds of cattle were getting larger and encroaching on each other and the question is how do we divide up the land equally uh that was the origin of the nomia part of the economy do you want to do the etymology of capitalism and capital well uh cap comes from head of cattle it's the it's cap as in all the all the yeah and the tops of columns and where the head of the government is and all that so capital uh in the early times was the birth of a new head of cattle which increased the wealth of the herd uh so to speak but it's also destabilizing because more head of cattle means you've got to rethink the grassland that you're grazing on and this was an issue for the early humans uh who live basically on argentine cattle ranches cattle was the core of the diet uh we're not aware of that um Athens had a herd of a hundred thousand cattle uh just for sacrifice and the sacrifice was a way of maintaining the tradition of on the the hunters doing the kill and sharing the kill among everybody and as things settled down that tradition started to get lost but was brought back with the idea of of the ritual sacrifice where the smoke goes up to the god and the milk the meat is distributed among the people so if you read something like uh the Odyssey every time Odysseus lands on a new island they kill a hundred head of cattle and they share them around uh it's a good description of that culture but to me the idea that capital is the natural sexual outgrowth uh from a herd of cattle uh tells us something about what capital is it's increase uh through reproduction of what we have and uh it seems to me that thinking that through gives us some leverage on what capital is that we might change it I mean the peculiar thing is that uh democracy and capitalism are two parallel systems for making decisions democracy we sort of know capital is decisions made for the future of society by those who own the capital it's basically those that own the calves that are being born from what we have thank you um I'm gonna throw in kind of a dark twist in the conversation that takes us back to some of the start of this conversation which is uh one of the books that really shook me up in the last decade was called it's called the American slave coast written by a couple and basically they say hey there was a slave breeding industry in the United States and newly born slaves were considered interest on your asset which was how many humans you owned and the wealthiest people in America everywhere were you measured someone's wealth by how many humans they owned and so so so there's this whole so so slaves in in Virginia were more valuable than slaves for the south because they they they lived longer because the weather and the crops that they were doing there's a whole bunch of things about the economics of it so Virginia was sort of having a higher natural reproduction rates from their slave base than other states etc and the whole thing is chilling in how similar it is to what Doug was just offering us about how we managed cattle and what we did and so so the the depths of inhumanity of the American and broader sort of slave system of that day are part of this reckoning and part of you know the the past that we don't really want to talk about and then and you can follow this thread around in my brain and then and then the south adopts um genteel cavalier culture from England partly because a lot of the cavaliers show up and go to the south but cavalier culture and honor duels and extreme politeness protection of women all of that sounds very southern this is a large facade pasted over the horrors that are happening behind the curtain so cavalier culture is a way of making this all seem very gentlemanly uh and very like like proper when in fact there's just horrors happening behind the curtain constantly so and I you know go ahead I think about um um this evolution of what man believes they could own right you know from you know these indigenous populations that saw themselves a part of um you know this critical zone to when we started to separate ourselves from that critical zone where we could then own you know livestock we could own land or crops right um we could own water we could own other people and now we can own other people's ideas right this whole thing around you know the battle going on and I know it seems trite in the conversation here around Taylor Swift and her music and how she can't even own like like that her music can be owned by somebody somebody first and foremost or that it's it could be owned by somebody else and I think like even even quite honestly the rules at the organization I run is if you produce a work product or an idea that IP belongs to me as the owner of the business right and I think that idea is just we can own everything we can own people's time and so we're still living in a kind of a in a slave culture and we wrap it into this genteel thing of you know this is the way businesses work right this is the rules that govern the way we operate so it's fair and therefore it's okay for me to own everything and everyone and every idea and every thought and every you know I'm reminded of green I'm reminded of Gandhi's answer to you know what do you think of western civilization and I'm going to butcher it of course but you know it would be a great concept I mean it would be a great idea but that can happen great idea yes and then so another good book is called against the grain and in which James Scott talks about how people got civilized which meant sort of bringing them into cities and in China in ancient China they used to talk about people as being either cooked or uncooked and the cooked were the ones who've been brought inside of cities and made to grow rice and the uncooked were the ones who were living out and living on the land and much they were usually healthier because their diets are more varied they have freedom to move etc but but part of the problem is encroachment on resources and our inability to figure out how to make resources increase which is a key question in the middle of all this and here I wish we had sort of kumu systems dynamics experts to say hey when you have lots of compressed humans in a small space it's still possible to eat well and to treat the earth well because this because this because this I think that it rapidly gets into places where we can start exploring how this works and how to how to help people figure our way through this messy we're living through the very messy bottleneck between some thanks to Neil so glad you're here we're missing we're sort of living through we our lives overlap with this messy bottleneck between ways of living the kind of grew artificial abundance and a lot of strife and whatever comes next and the thing that comes next could be awful it could be actually pretty pretty damn cool so we're not doing our normal check-in which is lovely actually our conversation has been really fruitful and generative I'm thinking of going to check in a format just to see where we are and and come back in that sounds good cool so let's go to Judy J Kevin and you're still muted Judy yep you're looking for the mute button I can tell perfect I am sorry well very rich conversation and it's going to drive me back to my big dictionary to look up a lot of other words thank you Doug for that reminder of how our heritage is caught in our language very very rich I'm caught up in the the drift right now of taking the large principles to the implementation of the practical in in a sharing of the process with other groups of people I'm not looking so much personally right now at trying to influence systems directly which would be the logical outcome but how to share the process of communication that we're experiencing here and the evocation of circles of people because I'd love to have people taking the gratitude of thanksgiving in the hope of the holiday season forward in a generative way in their personal internal and external conversations and then kind of trying to visualize how I could do that should it be part of my sometimes seasonal letter what might be that process but anyway that's what I've been pondering in the last few days thank you Judy and you're you're reminding me you're reminding me that the conversation we just had I don't think of as a crazy abstract distraction from our work I think of as an important part of the synthesis of our work because I'm one of my hopes is that OGM models the new way of being in the new world and in order to figure that out we need to figure out how to deal with history and how to deal with bad actors and how to deal with the commons and how to deal with all those kinds of things in really practical ways in really practical pragmatic ways so your your instinct like how does this turn to action is really near to my heart but but without some of the conversations we just had I think we don't get to understand how our new way of seeing changes the concept of ownership and how how we will still be happy at the end of the day even though we don't own you know a thousand head of cattle or a thousand slaves or whatever else the measures have been over time. Thank you Jerry because that really says better what I was trying to say I mean the process of thinking differently is what ultimately affects the change that we hope to see and that's what I was thinking about how to get others thinking about the concepts. And in a strange and interesting way we are sort of speaking this world into being through the process of these conversations and then our work in the world. Because the words we use and how this all works affect all that go ahead. I just want to respond to Judith expressed kind of objective there's somebody called Andrew Gaines he's from Australia and what have you heard of him Charles you're not doing. I met him we spent a little time in Scotland to climate change. He did a presentation where I was at and this is kind of his mission and so his concept is to do tabletop conversation type things so I will email you I've got him in my email box and I'll email you. I have received his emails and I've shared some earlier in the email list with this group but thanks for ringing him up and he does kitchen table conversations. Cool thank you from you. Let's go to Jake, Kevin and Julian. Hey everybody. Jerry happy birthday. I hope this is a total blessing of a day and a week and a year and I'm grateful for you. It's memorable and vastly better than it otherwise would be because of you all so thank you. So I kicked off in deciding that it's not enough to have a day of Thanksgiving. I kicked off a year of Thanksgiving last week and I've been working on that practice and it's also included some you know thanks grieving and some thanks grooving as well and maybe even some thanks giggling as a integrated part of it and then on this week well last week a friend of ours came down with stage 4 ovarian cancer and then this week she died just dropped boom and this is a person who is dedicated to telling the stories of telling the story of the oak tree and the acorns that was kind of her life's work of how the acorns which used to be such a staple in the kind of western western food system have been just neglected and so that was like her life's work so I've been kind of being with that and you know I'm a person who generally is a kind of compulsive optimist and woke up at like three in the morning and came into my office and just started crying I was just crying for like a half an hour kind of crying for everything it's like because all sorrow is tied to all sorrow I think and so that's kind of where I'm at and I view that as a as a valuable act because it's something that I'm you know with kids and with work and being the like person whose job is to be the inspiring person I don't actually have a lot of space and time to do that to do that grieving and so I think it's it's powerful that that that I've gone through that and I'm gonna continue to cultivate that practice that said I was like as I went back to bed I was asking myself okay am I gonna wake up for OGM and and as I you know and I and I said okay why am I gonna wake up for OGM if I am gonna wait for it and I just kind of let it go and then I got up early and it was time um but I want to just say that like on the on the one hand I'm immensely appreciative for the the diversity of philosophy and approach and power that I think is is in in this group um and on the other hand I'm continuing to ask myself like how am I gonna bring my gifts in this new phase it's a constant iteration and I guess I'll just I'll just say like um I'm asking that question as I'm sitting here in in this group and I'm asking you know I'm asking where are we going I've got the the philosophy part and I'm and I know that's essential um but we've been through many philosophical conversations um and many powerful explorations and clearly there's cohesion I'll just you know in my like depth of feeling and contemplation I'll say okay so we we went through our um our retreat time and our refining time and um I would maybe it's happening somewhere else and I'm not on that call but I would just love to hear a a summary at some point of of where we are and where we're headed um and because I have to answer those those questions as I align my my own future so thank you Jay thank you let's um let's just go into silence with that so we can hold that before we get distracted by something else so that was a heartfelt of things Jay thank you and and we're responsible for figuring out better what are we after and how do we do it and I totally hear that um let's go back from unless somebody wants to riff on that which would be very valuable uh let's go back to the check-in and we had uh Kevin Julian and then Laura uh Ken go ahead yeah I just want to amplify something Jay said I'm uh I'm grateful that uh that you brought up grief a few calls ago I mentioned something about Michael Mead saying that you know we'll begin to heal collectively when we when we reinstate public grief rituals and um you know I Jerry I know that you're in a grieving phase um you know with your mom passing and and um I just think it's important for us to uh be able to share our grief um and this is a great place to do it because it's a safe place to do it I think anybody be totally welcome to say hey I'm in grief here and get support where that's not something that is often found uh in a lot of circles so um I'm grateful that we've made this a place where it's permissible and acceptable for someone to say you know I got up in the morning and cried um you know that's a powerful vulnerability so I just want to honor that uh in a little different way there and encourage us all to look at um you know this is sort of was in was into my check-in but I'm looking at there's so much grief on the part of the people who voted for Trump that he lost and that is something that's going to need to be dealt with and so um if we approach it from not their anger but the fact that there's a meme going around out says you know I sat with my grief long enough to learn that her name was sadness right or I said my anger long after her name was grief and we've got to recognize that underneath the anger there's a huge amount of of unresolved grief and so how can we um think a way for OGM to uh be effective in the world is to look at how can we transform anger to get to that grief have it be expressed and eventually move to joy uh Matt Doug Hank Matt you're muted you know I I have I have to go here um soon but I want to acknowledge Jay that I think I think that there is a growing a growing tension within our conversations about this question of you know what are we doing um and you know one of the things that I've learned from watching groups of people come together um and you know contemplate uh their futures is that it takes reaching a point of um of tension about the conversation that you then start to move into you know into action and and it you know it merges it emerges out of that that desire to move forward that you know that ideas start to turn into real action and I think we're at that point you know and to be real specific about what I see starting to happen because I don't think that there is an organization that's saying okay here's our strategy here's our actions let's hear our initiatives and all that kind of stuff as I start to see people you know beginning to build things right um Pete speak you know has been spending a lot of time trying to build out a communication architecture um I see people starting to pull together other groups to say let's let's do these quests I know we attempted to start a quest and it didn't quite happen so I I think you know the question is is we have to all at answer what do we need to feel like we are making the progress that we need to stay engaged in this group and then own own that um and own that that making process and I think we're getting closer um and I don't think we're there but I think we're at this a little bit of an inflection point of that moment of frustration and that moment of shaping of that frustration into something positive and I just hope that we continue to build our strength together and invite more people in and and and focus that frustration on the on getting action versus you know stepping away because I would feel very sad if if you stepped away from this group um I we need you and we need your voice and we need your ideas um so thank you Matt uh I just you know I honestly like the thinking in my head was well I wouldn't be stepping away per se it would be more like the just the thinking in the day was like well maybe do I do I lean in to the to this continued phase or just wait until everybody figures out what it is and then you just call on me you know that's it's more like that so I don't feel like out of it um that was and I'm just explaining how I was feeling today yeah of course of course you know and I and I honor that night I mean I wrestle with the same thing right I have so many competing priorities with my time you know and I get questions pretty much daily from my wife and business partner about you know why are you spending so much time with this group and and I I have maybe to to go back to what Doug said about um uh what is truth um you know part of the truth here for me is is not the facts of what we're doing it's the faith and what can come out of this group right um and that's the only thing that's keeping me here um but I think I'm I'm feeling the same way and I think we all are starting to feel this way um and we have to solve this problem and I think we have to start working on the internal structural stuff the how we how we organize how we work how we invite how we do those things and sometimes step back from the individual outward projects that we have going on that we're desperate to have the inside working properly to help us with right thanks Matt um Doug Hank okay um I find myself really puzzled about the grief question I'm thinking about it a lot you know we're entering a time when the amount of death around us from climate change is increasing rapidly already and how we're going to relate to that if we get paralyzed by it we're not going to be very useful uh I come back to the idea that nature is beautiful in all of its phases and there's something about dying uh which is fascinating and that our grief approach might be cultural and a kind of mean and we need to rethink what that is um how to think differently about what death can be about I mean one of the things since I'm 84 and should be dead by now anyway uh noticing with every little fallback parts of your body become clearer than they've ever been before and that's kind of fascinating um so I'm just thinking I think the philosophers have let us down by not giving us a view of how we deal with the end of life uh in a philosophical way I know there I can already think of people who have written pretty well about it but it just to me it's a puzzle and it's interesting and it's critical because we're going to be surrounded by death certainly the amount of collapse of environmental niches and a lot of the global south is pretty critical thanks Doug Hank yeah so um I just kind of wanted to add a just a reflection um for I guess the purposes of just having the opportunity to articulate it um and it's really in relation to the statement about grief because it's something that I think I've been thinking a lot about too as it's come up and in several of the phone calls that we've had over the past couple Thursdays right is how do we move forward and how do we you know help people kind of work through a lot of this stuff and I think one of the things that I have found difficult um is in order to I think help people work through their grief whatever it may be whether it be this political grief that we're seeing now or more personal requires some acknowledgement by the person and whoever is helping them walk through it right to that grief is like legitimate uh you know and I think that's something that I found is how do you see someone else's grief as legitimate in a world in us in a environment that is as polarized as it is right now right and I think it's more um and I don't know if that's necessarily a question that we have to answer today right because it's obviously deep and rich and right it's more of like a personal challenge right to be vulnerable enough that to try and do that especially when that grief might fly in the face of so many of your personal beliefs you know um and so I think that's just my reflection and maybe just a push that if we do choose to do this um you know whether it be personally or as a group that I think that's something that we'll have to work very actively hard on on doing uh so that's that. Thanks Hank um let's go back to the queue Kevin, Julian, Laura. Thanks um I just wanted to say that you know I'm one of those who was happy with this group as it is I see in the intersection and hallway or somewhere but you know that's what it is and I'm happy with it. I'm checking and I have two places that I want to highlight I'm with a group called Left Leaning in a Wombuse which is the really poor rural Mississippi County I'm from and it's both sort of expats and people who are still there and it's become kind of the only support group for the folks who are there who can't afford to signal who they are. It was 88% Trump and it was somebody said in that group that there was an old woman in the Walmart which is going to take an over and destroy the town and God bless them who said you know maybe we should just take off all our masks and get it over with and so you know she wasn't a denier she was expressing despair in this really deep way and that just uh that made me really sad and because I mean you know she wasn't fighting it she said you know it was a death wish and people applauded like yes maybe that's what we do acknowledging that really and then secondly I'm working in Chicago with a project I put a link to just acknowledging our partnership we're going to be working in the south shore of Chicago trying to make housing more affordable and red line neighborhoods and oddly enough somebody came up with an idea that looks like it actually might work like yesterday and it was um this is a neighborhood where there's still some equity in people's houses but there's also gentrification coming but also some houses being dilapidated and falling down and they said well what if the people who still have some equity in their houses and they have less because they're in a red line neighborhood and that's why evaluation for it could pool their home equity to invest in other neighbors um and that it could be actually down payment and and we're looking at that and you know I reached out to a bunch of you know include there's a group of inclusive real estate funders I mean nobody's ever heard of that idea but they all said actually it could work and so this will be neighbors investing in their neighbor if they get other people to move into their neighborhood it's being depopulated then their asset is increased as an intergenerational kind of thing and it's it's really pretty interesting it's there's also another group that looks we're hoping to get to come there it's called parodyhomes.com and she in Baltimore has done this for 30 people pledged that they will be homeowners that then she's raised money around and then they can transform these disinvested blocks of neighborhoods and but they're both either you know neighbors investing together or neighbors investing in each other and I think there was this odd idea I kind of dismissed it you know pooling your home equity I never was that mean and you know but then I thought about it and I assume that to some folks and they said you know none of them had ever heard of it but it's actually actually really doable you just have to uh learn to think about investing in your neighbor and you know in some of these poor neighborhoods that's a really possible thing to do so that was it was kind of interesting you know the the uh the reciprocity in in the disinvested neighborhoods in Chicago versus the just air back in you know 88 percent front 90 percent white uh Appalachian northeast corner of Mississippi. Kevin thank you I just put in the chat a guy named Kevin Kavanaugh who's a friend of ours now here in Portland he's he's doing a lot of really interesting work on on real estate and poverty and trying to figure out innovative part of the community investment trust that came out of mercy not as far as I don't know he did a really nice TEDx talk I'll put the link to that here in a second first let's go to Julian Lauren then Pete Jay thank you for that phrase so succinctly expresses how humanity is connected so for uh check in uh first off sorry I missed last week because I turned off the 7 am alarm and then but then neglected to set an 8 alarm 8 o'clock alarm slept through it however I still haven't forgiven the group for interrupting my dream about playing with a puppy a few weeks ago so I guess now we're even I just finished giving a presentation at the Neo4j developer conference about one of my areas which is history is a graph database and it's related to OGM very quite a bit one thing that was good about it is that it sometimes you need a push to get things written down in the forum well it's not written down but to get things nailed down enough of a forum that everybody else can understand what it is you're thinking about so it's getting this presentation ready made me do that there will be up on YouTube in a few days this one focused on history because that was what one of the things I'm using this Neo4j graph database for but I have to show it off some of the visualization which a couple of you guys have already seen bits of and my quest is to be able to make knowledge something that is somewhat tangible enough that you can manage it using your human cognitive abilities and history is a test case for this so in that way it's related to what OGM is doing and this getting this presentation ready made me describe that a little better for everybody else to consume that that I just finished I mean literally just finished that went until 745 I'm very glad you're here sorry about the puppy dream and your work sounds totally OGM and I'm looking forward to seeing the video you produce out of it thanks you well could also know my visualizer also does the brain brains and I need to get back to Bentley because I finally figured out how to visualize parts of your brain so cool maybe maybe we should have you in the free jerry's brain conversation we can sort of share those ideas that'd be really good yeah cool but so Lauren Pete then Vincent I actually just wanted to say thank you Jerry for kind of initiating this whole thing and it means a lot to me and I think other people here it's almost like having a Thanksgiving every week and as a time that I look forward to and I think it's uh it's just unnecessary to think of this group as anything other than a Thanksgiving Thursday and to me this is the place where I can come to find people that I trust because I feel like everything everyone that you've gathered Jerry and the rest of you Matt everyone is like I feel a lot of trust for you and so this is a place where I feel like I can come and express like what I kind of am into right now and not everyone is going to be into that but it's the place like kind of the base camp to just go and express that and then find other people who are on the same frequency so I just like to you know extend that and say the frequency that I'm on is that I need more in terms of like I need a tighter network that expresses I think more mutual commitment and maybe and that that that basically means like I would like to kind of surround myself with people maybe less people less people but people who feel the same fire under their asses that I do because I I feel like I have something that I have to offer that I would like to offer that I feel like I am not able to express that capacity to my 100% in offering other people what I can do and I feel like I'm not able to get what I need also so I would just like to express to other people who feel the same way that I would like to gather with you and maybe make up clear boundaries and which is what it what is our commitment to each other and what are our our accountabilities and responsibilities so I know not everyone is going to be interested in that but I would like to you know be part of a closer tighter group who's really going to promote each other and help each other to succeed and whatever our projects happen to be I don't care I don't care I don't I don't need to go all one place together but I would like to be in a place where the the level of mutual support is is higher so I just wanted to express it and thank everyone again for being here and just being like an amazing pick me up to my week thank you Lauren and it's your birthday Jerry yes it is happy birthday thank you thank you thank you I know I'm I'm 61 today for for the record I know are you serious yeah yeah you look good thanks thanks you're just a kid it's a it's a funny story so April and I got married like 13 years ago and April believes in applying for stuff and often stuff shows up so she applied for having our marriage published in the the New York Times wedding section and sure enough we were like the cover story for the wedding section that weekend and what do they use was a photo that our our favorite photographer had taken of us of our heads upside down and they went with that and then I get a message from my friend Rose who is living in Israel who was in the beauty parlor when she saw that article in the Times and she's leaving through she goes to her neighbor oh that like I know these people below and her neighbor goes he's had work and I haven't had any work but that made my month it made my year I'm like all right that's good we're doing all right but but like half a world away in a beauty parlor in Tel Aviv like he's had work so anyway back back to our regularly scheduled program which is already in progress uh pete vincent armed you um happy birthday jerry and and thank you for all of this and thanks everybody for all of you um I want to honor the visions for ogm of Scott and Kevin I it resonates for me when they say you know this this is this is it guys you know this is really valuable this is all we need um I have a little bit of different vision and I think together we kind of figure out where that goes um my observation is that ogm is is rich in philosophers and facilitators um and it's and it's a place of interconnection and I think I think we can scale and I think we can incubate and nurture action oriented quests so um I think you know that I think some of those quests are within ogm and many of them are going to be inspired and external to ogm and and hopefully many of them will be aligned with ogm so I think I think the centralization and federation are going to be key to scaling and then I think that communication and information exchange is the lifeblood of the decentralized coordination that we need to have so that's what I feel like I'm working on I'm in discussion with with many ogm folks here and and in other places and so that's where I'm going thanks and and and I I don't have a mental conflict with preserving these calls as roughly how they are but also having what we're maybe calling what we're probably calling quests that involve tighter people on projects with deeper commitments who are doing what Lauren just described precisely so I don't I don't think those things are at all mutually exclusive and I don't think we have to damage this the nature of this call as it goes and still have what we're looking for here so I'm I'm good with that um Vincent Parmigid and then Klaus why is there a piece of pizza over Lauren it's a party hat well yeah it does look like a tiny slice of pepperoni I just wrote that in the chat so I'm checking in with a little bit of zoom fatigue I uh I got bitten by a dog while I was walking around my neighborhood uh last weekend and so um I couldn't really work out and so I was doing a lot of zooming and so I was doing some yoga during this call because I just need to uh get back into being more active um and also had a dream right before this that I was walking a dog for like 30 minutes straight it was like that woke me up my alarm to get into this call so it was very interesting dealing with uh I guess those the trauma that happened from that but yeah the last few weeks I've been definitely more action oriented and um I just wanted to bring up one idea um I posted in the chat this uh gather town which I used yesterday for the first time and it was really really cool we did a like 20 person uh networking in the game b group networking event on gather town and it's a physical board that you can walk around on and when you get near people their video shows up and if you're like not vibing with the conversation you could just walk away and leave and then go into a different conversation and so it's like having breakout rooms but you could actually walk around a map just like you would in like a party and like go into different conversations um and so to the the point that said can I sorry can I jump in just really really quick yeah yeah musical musical instrument museum in phoenix arizona and that's how it works there's hundreds of displays and you wear headphones and they only interact where you are standing so if you walk away from a display you can no longer hear it but as soon as you get to it you can hear it so that yeah it's it's just it's just like that it was so cool but I think we should definitely do it I'm proposing a quest where we um kind of go in with our projects and then can kind of go to different you know all meet up in the middle and be like hey we're all going to go to these different sides of the map and you could bounce around and see what people are working on but a very like action oriented uh gathering there would be really cool um and we were having a conversation in the game B space about how like why is no one doing anything or like why is are we lacking this like action and a common thread that came up from people just like talking about how they felt was that because there's this like culture of collaboration and like co-design like people don't want to like do things and step on each other's toes and like feel like they are uh not not taking into consideration others in the group and what came out of that conversation which I think could be insightful for OGM is that well intentioned people working on well intentioned projects uh you know as long as you're like learning from those quests and experiments and it's then we need more people to just take initiative and do things and and kind of experiment and so that's what I have been focusing on recently and um I think yeah we definitely should have some more spaces and meetings that are dedicated to doing that sort of stuff together. Thanks Vincent I think the experiments sound great I'll pass it to you in a second Lauren I just wanted to tell a brief story about one of the 4 000 odd startups that pitched me their wares back in the day and this was in the early days of internet connectivity so I'm guessing 94 95 there was a company called online and they had an online space where you would basically create a head avatar uh you didn't have a body that were floating heads in a 3d landscape really bad polygons like early days uh animation not good but a couple brilliant things uh the head would lip sync to you so it was listening to your audio and the the mouth would move along with your own audio feed into the server and then they had invented a server a kind of server technology where um proximity mattered a lot so as you walked around the space people's voices got louder and and dimmer as you as you went around and it worked really beautifully it was very efficient they had they had optimized their their algorithms for that particular thing it was just genius and and way ahead of its time and then disappeared I had no idea where those people went or what happened to it but um but I was thinking it was just a lovely brilliant way to do multi-party audio and I was hoping that their back end technology for for multiplexing the audio would become a way that we could start doing uh sort of virtual distributed telephony so for example um if you were having a call with somebody in Florida and somebody in Berlin the system would automatically move to a server that optimized the distance between the nodes this is in the days when all of that mattered a whole bunch and and we could sort of reinvent the phone system by just moving a clever server around wherever it was needed for whoever was participating at that moment and that you know your computer might become the server for for a conversation in the building that kind of thing that number materialized sorry for the long regression Lauren you want to jump in yeah so I just wanted to say something and respond to Vincent and then what I'm going to say might sound weird to you and not what you're saying I'm going to say the opposite from what you're saying because you're saying we need more people to take initiatives like we need leaders and I'm going to say something different what this non-obvious thing that I've learned from years of of research is that I actually think the problem is we we don't have any followers no one's following and so we have an entire network of people with solutions but no one willing to be like oh I'll just follow you and adopt that solution so that's it's a distinction that I think uh leads us to a really different network-wide solution I think Julian go ahead so just a quick note we're used to doing chats on Zoom with Skype or whatever and in the VR community they've gone to VR interactions with people so that you don't just look at video images on a screen but actually 3d representations and you're having chats with people and walking around which you can see visually so this is something we want to check into I don't consider it viable right now because in order to really utilize it you have to have a VR rig and that's non non-trivial activity but we might want to have a conversation about it sometime I think that's an interesting space to play in in different ways that would make a very interesting sort of quest about user experience and all of that I've I've lost my cue Pete you went or were you next you did go yeah so parmigiate then Klaus and then actually we're not going to make it through the whole queue today because I think we should we should end pretty much at our 90 minutes if we can so we had a lovely discussion earlier that sort of took some of that space so let's go to parmigiate and I'm going to have to shift spaces so I'm going to I'm still listening but I'm going to mute myself for a second so my sense is because now I've been coming to this group a couple of times I've been to the flow show and I went to April's show as well and I didn't even know that April was related to Jerry so it's all very interesting so to me I've got to a stage where I don't think I can continue servicing like three lots of stuff every week because I've actually got projects some of it has arisen from the meeting with April in that my focus on finance seems seems to be coming together to an extent where there are forums that I know that you know I can add value to those forums and I can like link up the thinking between them so that I mean I'm wrapped that we talk so much about finance today because it is it is really really key and so I think the connection with here is that if we had a distilled kind of you're calling them a quest around the finance side how could finance work within the core of what we're trying to do and also within structures that are doing their own doing but they're federated to the core so we just need like a small group of people like Lauren's saying to focus on just that question and what else did I want to say I think that it would be really valuable to have like core things that we can saturate the world with and so for example it was like really heartwarming for me because my dad is like 84 now and I saw him reading Louise Hayes book which I read in my 30s and I you kind of just think you know the older you get you kind of catch on to this kind of emotional intelligence stuff but you don't unless somebody kind of says hey emotions of these da da da and he was reading and he was going oh you know do you know that your parents pass on a loss of shit to you and all of what he didn't use that word but and I'm like oh my gosh you know he's just catching on to these concepts now so I think there's something about these key concepts that we need to kind of just spray the world with using everything you know all the groups and individuals we've got as part of this so I'm thinking about April's group more here because they seem to be the people who are out there well I guess some people here are too you know you've got your own setups NGOs or whatever kind of structures you've got so yeah there are kind of like a handful of key ideas like that and there's probably going to be a like a handful of financial concepts that people need to really understand the fact that finance is man made is one of them the fact that it's got to be coupled to ecology is another one and the fact that the kind of care economy and all of that I put a link up to do with catalyst capital it's like putting money into something that can catalyze change so all of these kind of things need to travel as ideas throughout kind of everything and most of the ideas are coming from people who are passionate grassroots people and so they're finding ways of implementing them like through in a community setting and then what's happening is that people who are dying the mud kind of institutional people are ignoring them to start with but then as people are continuing and persisting and developing and other people are going hey now I'll join you then these institutional people are going well maybe you know you've got something going there so what's happening is that people it's like a magnet thing and so these ideas are getting filtered through so it's like I think we have a role to play as being like a a core like a tourist that's kind of spreading things out and coming back in and generating all of that it feels like it feels like you're channeling some of what Lauren and Charles are doing and and having and a bunch of other things we've been talking about here so I like it so I don't have much sense let me but I'll stop it there that's good thank you Judy has a comment then claus has the last check and then we'll wrap today's call I just think that what we've done today is really powerful and I think each of us can become an inoculator in the populations with whom we interact and that's what I was trying to express earlier but you said it much better thank you one of my amateur beliefs about social change is that one of the most powerful drivers of social change is a person who takes another person that they know by the hand to try something new just the trusted relationship and and we trust mostly people who are mostly like us so just trying some some new thing that you wouldn't normally have tried that changes how you see the world and how you are in the world this was super powerful so I think that's a form of inoculation entirely claus uh go ahead yeah what what has come to mind in following our conversations here is is a concept I would not for lack of of better wording I would call a densification of narrative similar to inoculation right so when you think about the conversation we had early on about the history of the united states the slave trade and and so the the enormous tensions that have shaped and formed this culture the more we understand about it you know it densifies the narrative so until it really simplifies this narrative because then once these concepts are understood they become very simple and that that's what I'm working on in the food business and there is actually right now there are two international conventions running simultaneously talking about what are we going to do with the food business basically and the the understanding that that is shaping a narrative is so powerful that it becomes really simple now and so once we have this simplicity in knowing then we can act so that's that's what I what I see as a contribution for which you and maybe that's the the path that is most uh food for for us today thank you claus that's a lovely I think place for us to to hit pause on today I um and just by way of wrapping this call I just want to say how grateful I am for all of you for being here uh it's an act of faith and generosity on your parts to contribute your time and your presence and in particular your heart to being here and I I am very aware and appreciative of it um this is and and as a strange by product maybe we'll do some good in the world um which would be great but thank you for for everything for um everything um so with that on to uh onto a day and uh see you all on the intertubes thank you so much appreciate it okay bye bye that's for that