 We move straight to our discussion tonight where we are talking about the county governance and fund a usage where we saw the radio of 176 workers in this county government and I'm speaking to my guest here, she's a lawyer, Jerusa Michael and Thomas Omao, political scientists want to know whether the move was okay and should other county governments adopt the same thing and indeed if the whole country would adopt that system of reducing the numbers of workers, good evening ladies and gentlemen. Good to have you. Now I want to get your views, how do you feel the message, how do you appreciate or how do you feel the move by governor and director to 276 workers in this county government. I'll begin with you Jerusa. Okay, so first of all I think the issue of redundancy in Kenya is something that we really experienced especially in the past year and this year. We've seen several institutions sucking their employees on account of redundancy. We've seen Stanbik, we've seen Telkom Kenya, we've seen Portland cement and so when in 2020 we work up again and it's government institutions now, it's the county. That is sucking employees on account of redundancy. Then I think it's a little bit shocking first of all considering it's county government, it's a government institution and in as much as the law provides that the wage bill should be capped at 35%. Several, it's not just the county government of Laikipia, I think there are so many, most of the counties and the national government at large, the wage bill is high. We all know the wage bill is high but who was sucked the messengers, you know switchboard operators and those law income earning people. Are those people the ones who are raising this wage bill? Is it going to have a very different impact? Who are getting the huge salaries? Who is pocketing that money that is coming up to 58% or I think it's 56-58% of the wage bill? I think those are the issues that we need to consider because we know in Kenya we have this. I think statistics show that we have 80% of Kenyans earning very little money and then we have millions and billions of money with a little 10% or 20%. I think it's even 10%. So I think in as much as it's supposed to be compliant with the law as the governor and county government puts it, there is so much that needs to go into that. Now Thomas you saw a similar thing being done by Nairobi Governor Sonko and now it is in Likipia and many people will say like she has mentioned these are the people. We would want to know who are these people that were sucked, are they the lowly paid and are they the majority and if they are, was the move okay? How do you feel about that? Thank you Hilary. For most I say that I respect the opinion of my sister Jerusha on the same of what she has actually said. But Hilary I can actually attest that I was going through the county public service audit report by the Likipia county, the chairperson of the county public service board. There is a madama Mumbimuago. With respect to this report she said that we have people in the county in Likipia county who actually had no proper academic papers. They had no proper academic qualifications to hold fierce positions and aside with respect to her she said that these people should be laid off. Namba 2, we find that Likipia county spends up to 180.8 million per month. That is just on recurrent expenditure. That is on salaries and such a stuff. We find that there is a lot of money my friend comparing what does the law say. For instance look at the public finance management of 2012. It says that the wage bill should not go beyond that 5%. That is in terms of maybe salaries and such. But we find that in Likipia county it was up to 50%. It was not good. In fact the governor should actually explain that even in court. It is not good to hire a lot of people maybe due to political patronage or due to such. So in my opinion I think other governors should follow suit. Let them follow the law and those people should be actually employed. Instead of employing a lot of people who do nothing and with no meaningful employment in the county. That is my opinion Hillary. All right now Jerusalem with Likipia county giving an example spending 190.8 million shillings on wage bill. I'm sure other larger counties in this country spends a whole lot. But also we're talking about the county funds allocation. The claiming they need more money to the machinani. That has been their call. Actually even as we speak the COG were meeting because they haven't been investing the money they want. The money has not been dispassed to the counties. But also looking into matters of employment. Those were people who were taking Unga back home every day. But now they will not. We also looking at how funds is how money is being used in the counties. Do you think it is the wage bill that was being misappropriated other than the projects that have been done in the counties. Okay first of all let me respond to my friend here Thomas. My issue is not that it's not the right thing to you know we know the law the law provides for 35% it is clear. In fact and I think one thing that I've seen from the process. They have tried to follow the law because the law that governs lane of employees on account of redundancy. First of all you need to look at section 40 of the employment act whereby you notify at least if there's a trade union. They are notified at least one month before or if the person is not a member of a trade union then they should be notified at least one month before or given one month salary in lieu of notice. And also severance pay, severance pay at least 15 days a year for all the years served. And from what I had they are going to give these people a good compensation package. So I hope they have negotiated those terms because if they've negotiated and this consent by those people then the process is going to be a little bit you know smooth. But if those steps are not taken and if there are terms, if there are grounds you know for lane of these people which for redundancy it should be okay technology has rendered you useless in the company. There's need to lower the cost. You know it's the things they were quoting yes. So I must say they have really tried and in as much as we know that yesterday I think there's a... I think the senator for Lakeipia County was talking about how they are going to someone the governor and question how these people who arrived at and everything. So that's actually my point how they arrived at these people. Why is it that I think... It's a big number. Yes it's a big number and for me it's the law earning people. The people who salary probably will be around 20,000. I don't think a messenger will be earning so much from the government and I don't think that number of people and considering Lakeipia County has around 3,000 and something employees. So 176 who are lowly paid how much difference is it making. I think those are the statistics that we need to be shown first of all. And also okay now let's go back to the wage. It has been now your question now the wage bill and if the wages are the funds that are being given are being used for wages more than the allocation of resources and projects. Yes I think a staggering 58% is a lot of money for salaries only and I think even nationally a lot of money is used to pay people. I think what should be regulated I think that that step that was taken was not really the best step to be taken in my opinion. I think first of all we need to look at how much is everyone earning. Can we according to the budget we have the resources we have and the amount of money that we have been allocated. What does the governor, the deputy governor, the county executive directors and everything. Let it be reasonable amount that of course it should be reasonable amount. When I say reasonable you know what I mean reasonable amount should be paid to the workers not dismissing people not laying off people. For me it is not the solution and yes more money needs to be taken to projects, county projects you know that's a good thing. But let it be done in the right way let it be not be done by affecting other people but you know you sacrifice some group of people who don't have say so that you say okay we are doing projects we are doing this we are doing this. What about slashing your salaries you are earning a lot of money that money is on top there yes so that's exactly my opinion today. Thomas what would you weigh in into this was it a good move to sacrifice those people who are earning lowly and the money that they are asking to the counties taken to the wages other than the projects. And maybe as you respond to that should also the national government embrace this we have parallel programs with people our offices that perform almost the same job. Should they merge or maybe we should have them cut the salaries. Okay thank you thank you Hilary. I'd like to say something we had someone with the name Immanuel Kanta he talked about self interest. Immanuel Kanta is the major proponent of the idealist theory that is in international relations he talked about the consequential theory of ethical lewism. With respect to this scholar people tend to do something that has self interest at the expense of the general at the expense of the public interest. What am I trying to say? Hilary I can say that we have a lot of resources we have a lot of resources both at the county level and at the national level. What we need to do is what we call financial prudence. How can we manage these little resources that we have? Like for instance you find that people accumulating wealth for their self gain and their self interest at the expense of the general public. For instance for the case of Likipia County. I was trying to go through that report by the chairperson of the County Public Service Board. And I'll advise my friend to go through that report. This report actually did not cut across the lowly paid individuals. This report cut across the board because with respect to the chairperson she was trying to see maybe for instance you find that there is someone who is maybe working in the office of the governor. And if you try to ask such a person the kind of roles and duties that such a person does the person can't explain clearly. For instance you can find that someone is a personal assistant in the office of the governor. What are your roles? Are they clearly stipulated? What are your academic qualifications towards such a position? You find such individuals could not actually explain such. So you should also say that there are those people who perform nearly the same roles. So is there a need of having like 10 people performing the same role in the same department? No. So some have to be laid off. So in my opinion I can say that we need to have what we call financial prudence. Let's try to make use of the little resources that we have. And the rest of the resources should go to the development process, the development agenda. That is what I can say. Just a quick follow up. Just to get it clear. The report was saying people were working there and the questions were raised on what you do and your qualifications. Then the biggest question would be how did they find themselves there? Who employed them in the first place? What I can say is that we have got to call political patronage. From the class of political science, political patronage is the process of giving job opportunities or giving certain favors to those people who may be supported during the political process. So in most cases you will find that some of these people never went to school. Like when I was going through that report Madam Mumbi was saying that up to 200 people had no academic qualifications, had no academic papers. How do you find yourself in an office without proper academic papers? That is political patronage. So in my opinion I think other governors should embrace this. We have very many young Kenyans outside here who are actually employed hundreds of thousands of them. So why employ someone with no proper academic qualifications? So I think what played a major role is what we call political patronage. And that is what's actually killing our development agenda. It's what's killing our economy in the country. Because we find people with no qualifications get offices, which is not good. All right. Jerrisha, you seem to want to respond to that. Okay, so basically I think he has told me to go and read the report. I have gone through the report actually and what you are saying is true. Yes, the report cut across what it was done by the county public audit committee. And what I am trying to say is this actually you've said it's 200 people, it's 242. 242 is the exact amount of the number of people who did not have academic credentials. And you find that in fact they said that around 100 and something were from the water department only and others health workers and out of those 242 it's 176 have been laid out. What is that number? For me what I'm questioning is the integrity of the process. I am not supporting the idea that the wedge bill should be high and people should be working when they do not have papers and that kind of thing. If you have noticed I am questioning the integrity of the process. How they arrived to that number. How they arrived to that number. Why is it only this 176 and yet if you look at that you will find that it's 242 that cut across board. And even when the report was being released you find that most affected people and you will support me in that. The highest number of affected people are messengers, switchboard operators and that kind of people who apparently they were saying that we have technology now, we can share files electronically, we don't need messengers, we don't need this kind of people but you find that they did not say anything like the people, some of the people have been laid off, there is nothing like you know there are too many executive directors here, there are too many of these, you know the high positions. And the assistance. Yes, in the number of people who are laid off, yes the report touches on them but the number of people, the people, the 176 you will find that most of them are these people who really actually don't really matter, don't carry so much of the wage bill in the county. All right, we are running out of time actually, I have less than four minutes. As we talk about our governance, in reference with what happened in Likipia would we say other county governments they are okay, is there something that we expect from them, should they take the same move or what should be regulated in terms even of low getting to lay off some employees and what should be done and also are they in a state to say we are fine, we are spending okay as we wind up. Okay, as I said earlier Hilary, the major problem that we have in our counties is financial imprudence. I'll give three examples. We have the county of Amigori, we have the county of Kisumu, we have the county of Asiya. These are the counties that we find that the finance departments got touched by fire. How did those fires go to those places and not other departments? You find that it's because that they want to destroy maybe some facts and figures maybe so that they cannot be questioned when they got the Senate Commit of Public Accounts Committee. So when they are questioned about how they spend their finances, the ostensible reason they give is that maybe the receipts and also just have were panned down. So what I'm trying to say is that the major, major problem that we have in our counties is financial imprudence. This is why counties should employ competent people, competent characters to lead various departments of the counties. As I said, another challenge that we are facing is political patronage. Hillary, you find an unqualified person is employed. So these are groups who don't actually deliver. So in my own opinion I think that the governors should take a broader step to ensure that those people are employed, are competent, they are qualified so that they can deliver and make use of the little resources that they have. That is what I can say. All right, Jeruso, what would you say? For me what I can say is that what the county government should be doing is looking at where exactly the wage bill goes up. So let there be fair administrative action at call 47 of the constitution of Kenya. Let the people who are going to be laid off if any be accorded fair hearing, let the right procedure be followed. Let us see integrity in the procedure that is followed in arriving at any decision. Yes, there could be and there are actually in almost every county people who are working without papers but who employed them. There is a contract and in law when you bridge a contract you will face the consequences. The employment act is clear. So if there is someone who is employed there, they might have been employed without papers. What was the contract saying? If the job position said you bring this paper in this and that is what they had, they didn't have others. Yes, it was political patronage. They got in through other dubious means but let the procedure be followed in laying these people off. It means going to disciplinary hearing or something of the sorts just following the right procedures and telling, asking you how did you get here. The person who got that person there should also be called to task and explain how did you hire this person. It's not like working up and just sending people off because they do not have papers. How did they get there? Who got them there? What did they present to the officer? Was there fraud? If there was fraud, let them be held accountable. Was there an officer who just sneaked them in? Let them be held accountable. Every person should be held accountable for their actions. Critics would ask maybe the house is being cleaned because there could be a probe coming soon because of corruption. So these people maybe would have tried to snitch out of what happened and how they found themselves there. Are there as many things for coming and sharing your opinion? Apparently we are out of time and I'm sure we would have talked more about this in particular topic. They have been my guest, Thomas Omao political analyst and our scientist and the address of Michael Alloia. Now coming up next is Waimashariki. I'm sure DJ Tesca and Ken Relbisi are very much ready for you. Thank you so much for keeping us company. I'll be seeing you again next week on Monday. Good night. My name is Dereva Hillary. Goodbye.