 Welcome to everyone and welcome also to C-SPAN and the audience through the C-SPAN. I'm very excited about today's event because we have two people with us who have recently come from Syria and who are able to give us an insider perspective, something that is hard to come by in the context of Syria. To my far right is Mohamed Ghulaym. He received his bachelor degree in English literature as well as his graduate degree in translation from Damascus University. He went on to earn a master's degree in peacebuilding and conflict transformation from the Center of Justice and Peacebuilding at the Eastern Mennonite University in Harrisonburg, Virginia, and he has taught as an assistant professor at the University of Damascus and the Syrian Virtual University. He is a longtime Syrian activist. He was active in the early days of the revolution as a strategist for nonviolent pro-democracy campaigns and he has continued his activism here in DC through the Syrian American Council and he is currently taking on a role of advising civilian administrative councils which are emerging in Syrian cities and which we intend to focus on today. He just returned from northern Syria three weeks ago. To my immediate right is Ilhan Taneer. He is a Washington DC correspondent for Vatan Daily, a nationwide Turkish newspaper and he is also a non-resident fellow at the British Henry Jackson Society and Ilhan has visited Syria on three different occasions in 2012. His first visit he stayed in the suburbs of Damascus and in early August he was in Aleppo and Idlib and has had the chance to be with the Free Syrian Army or the rebel forces as well as the civilian council as I'm sure Mohammed was as well. So Ilhan has written extensive articles on what he has witnessed which I encourage people to look at. So with that introduction I'd like to start off just with a general question. We're gonna run the session in a question-answer style and I'm sure that people in the audience have many questions to ask so I'll start out with just a few and then turn it over to the audience but starting with you Mohammed. The news that we are receiving in the US is very much right now focused on the issue of chemical weapons, the emergence of Islamist forces and the question of whether or not Damascus is about to turn and is Assad going to fall soon but I want to ask you given your experience and what you witnessed in Northern Syria what is it that we're missing from this story? I think we're missing the narrative about citizens of Syria and how they're coming together trying to take a step towards governing themselves. So this narrative about this emergence of a society in Syria is missing because of the disturbing reports about chemical weapons and so forth. So thank you so much for your introduction again and for setting the stage. To further set the stage it would be helpful to remind ourselves and the audience that the country we're talking about today is a country that is experiencing a crisis of huge proportions so according to the United Nations millions of homes in Syria have been destroyed, millions of people are internally displaced, hundreds of thousands have become refugees in five countries, some of them live in tin camps, some of them including some of the activists that I work with are exposed to the elements in Northern Syria. The Syrian Turkish border have not been given permission yet to cross the border because the Turkish authorities say we cannot take in any more Syrians and not to mention tens and thousands in detention and the staggering death toll of more than 43,000 people. So the purpose of my trip Leila was to visit the quote liberated areas in the country and I'm saying quote unquote because Assad maintains access throughout the country because of the fighter jets and helicopter gunships. So in those areas citizens are coming together trying to fill the vacuum or the gap that is being created by a contracting state and I thought that was very interesting because Syrians don't have the experience of running themselves for half a century since 1962 the state has been highly centralized and everything like the state can maintain control of everything in Syria even if you wanted to apply for like a marriage permit or like a permit to open a store you needed to check first what the security force is. So all of a sudden now people in Syria have to come together they need to do this and they need to do this very well with almost no funding or very little funding and they also have to operate in abnormal circumstances. So the purpose of the trip Leila was to connect with that aspect and see this find out more about this narrative in Syria. I was hosted in Aleppo. Aleppo was a perfect choice because it's arguably the most popular city in Syria. Some argue it's the largest city in Syria. It's in northern Syria. There is Aleppo the city and there's also the periphery. So the periphery we call it countryside or reef. The reef and the city make up the governorate of Aleppo or the province the governorate call them governorates in Syria and all of the periphery has been liberated and 75 70% of the city control over 70% of the city slipped away from Assad. So I used to go as a kid I used to go to Aleppo with with my father on business trips there and when I was in Aleppo I missed the hustle and bustle of the city that I was used to. The first thing I did there was I was hosted by the Aleppo Revolutionary Transitional Council that is a group of civilians coming together to do what they can to fill this void by the contracting state. The first thing we did was we visited we took a tour of the city. Most of the shops and the stores were closed down except for some that were providing basic services. And I wanted to find out how that local council was actually trying to function as a transitional body or a transitional government structure to help the city transition into a post Assad Syria. And to be honest with you I thought and by the way I'm using Aleppo as a case in point this is Laila this is happening all across the liberated regions in Syria. So to be honest I thought I was going to meet with simple people overwhelmed with this task. It's a huge city and the conflict has not yet come to an end. But we were very pleasantly surprised because the operation we encountered was a lot more sophisticated than we had thought. So they held elections and elected a 32 member board. The chairman was a highly educated person a former university professor with a PhD in engineering from France Dr. Hanji. They also started 12 different committees specialized committees a committee on relief committee on local administration committee on the judiciary financial committee on finance so that every single penny is accounted for security committee and we're working on a number of projects to stabilize the city and help it transition into a post Assad Syria and I would love today to talk about those projects that those councils are working on. Okay but can you say just a few words about the relationship between this council the civilian council and the military the what we typically refer to as the Free Syrian Army. A few months ago about 80 percent of those fighting in Aleppo coalesced under the Aleppo military revolutionary council and headed up by the fact the factor general Colonel by the name of a Gadi. So all of those groups so far those groups do maintain their separate identities and they do maintain the separate names but they are all fighting under the banner of this council and they all deferred to the disciplined professional Colonel Gadi. And I would say that the relationship between the civilian councils and the military councils is characterized by with has to basically has two characteristics a cooperative one and a competitive one. So the cooperative one of course if it were not for the military efforts in the city there would be no liberated areas. So the FSA is everyone depends on the FSA to provide the protection to keep the Assad regime from entering the city and so forth. However so that's the cooperative aspect however there's also a competitive aspect but this competitive aspect is not short term it's long term it's going into the future. So you have civilians you have an emerging civil society that is trying to govern the city and provide basic goods and services that the state is not providing. When I was in Aleppo I saw piles upon piles of trash and no one is picking up the trash this is one of the services they're trying to provide. So you have civilians they're trying to run the affairs of the community okay but you also have guys with guns and you know guns are a source of power so and you have the population. So I also see them as also competing especially going into the future about who will have the upper hand in the city. Now both the military council and the civilians are severely underfunded but still the military council the main source of power for the military council is the fighters and the arms whereas civilians need to be empowered to provide more and more services so that their legitimacy can be bolstered and further increased. So I would say it's competitive long term and cooperative short term. Ilhan you were in Aleppo earlier than the time in which this council was formed you were also in Idlib area and you were in smaller cities of in northern Syria. So how does what you witnessed in terms of the civilian effort and the relationship with the military compared to what was what Muhammad witnessed in Aleppo. Actually thank you for the invite first of all I think any chance and any time that we can talk about the plight of Syrian people is just a great chance for me and Mohammed said stage great. The first time I was in Damascus and one instance from there actually urged me to go back Syria. Last January I was in Damascus and one of those days state that about two weeks. One of those days I was with the person who was responsible of the logistics of the revolutionary youth in different suburbs in the eastern Ghouta area. I asked him after he told me how his day is like and I asked him so how was it a year ago what were you guys doing or couple years ago before the revolution before the revolution. I just didn't believe that that kind of organization could happen just day in a you know in a couple couple months and he turned back at me and he was driving actually and he said there was none it was zero. I didn't know any kind of internal organization that we could have built on but they struggled for a few months and they put that. So when we all suddenly wake up with the bombing in Damascus in the middle of July this year and for a high ace of the Assad regime got killed by bombing most of these places in the north suddenly in a week or two the regime forces had to withdraw and their huge chunks of land became liberated and I went to just a couple weeks after the liberation of the al-Bab. It is a 200,000 people town it is a northeastern part of Aleppo it's about 25 to 30 kilometers also to 20 to 30 kilometers to Turkish border so it's a kind of a it has a strategic importance to it. I stayed there about 10 days and then later on I also went back to Idlib after going back to Istanbul. In al-Bab the first the questions I have so as we all as we know that there was a very little experience of self-governing what would be the people of these 200,000 town or other towns do as the tackle the day issues or another issue cleaning streets to other things. Actually the first night I arrived I was a British journalist the first night I arrived we saw that the city people are cleaning the streets main roads of the streets and I later learned that the day they prepared this list and it they rotate cleaning the streets and I witnessed a couple more times during my stay so that was one of the very quick answer they found but about these councils they the first day I within these 10 days I participated three of the council meetings. They the main issue they were trying to accomplish was that the get agreement on the list of the council members and apparently there are three components in this 200,000 populated al-Bab city and one of them they called revolutionary youth which is the people who organized the protests who lead the protests and also very much internet savvy. The second component they called the teachers educators. They are not necessarily teachers but businessmen and others that they financed some of the needs of the revolutionary activists from the beginning and they also participated and the third component was that they called elders. These are the people are relatively well to do and older and the one extra point that they also had communication channels left open till the regime forces left the city. So these three components after a couple weeks of discussions they were on my last day actually one of the activists told me that today is the al-Bab's first political victory that they were able to agree on this 36 people of members 12 of each. Obviously it wasn't only council but judiciary safety or security of the city also the issues that they had to tackle. So very interesting because in Aleppo you had an elected council in al-Bab you had an appointed one people coming together and organizing themselves into leadership and implementers according to I guess consensus. Now I think that that's quite an interesting sort of pattern that one would you know could find an interesting sociological element and question about you know what are the challenges facing these councils in terms of their long-term sustainability because clearly they're not operating according to any set framework or plan they're they're just taking initiative and it sounds like operating according to what is instinctually appropriate to their particular community. So you know so let's address the question of sustainability. The US there will be a Friends of Syria meeting in Marrakesh, Morocco tomorrow and reports are that the US is preparing to recognize a transitional government if in fact one can be formed out of this new Syrian revolutionary coalition. If there is a transitional government that is recognized what will its relationship be to these councils which are more ad hoc and I assume beset by a number of internal contestations. Are these local councils sustainable? Do they have to be accounted for in any overall governance structure that may emerge that may be recognized by the West? You know that that what's the sustainability in the future of these councils? I can't take the first part and you can build the broader relations. There are many challenges. I'm first of all these people have to survive. During my stay both in Idlib and Aleppo you see every day basically the fighter jets and helicopters are circling especially if you go to the center of Aleppo it's bombing it's under this amazingly brutal situation. So for example in this al-Bab there were 15 battalions different battalions later on they were able to unite and became one brigade and one of the first issues that they the city council was trying to tackle was the get them out of the city because if the FSA battalions stay in the city much more likely that you get bombed. Nevertheless even though they got them out of the city later on they got bombed. So the first challenge is that the cities have to be able to defend themselves. If every day is the air strikes are coming up how they are going to able to sustain anything meaningful while they're trying to survive. I think this is a very good question whether or not these civilian efforts are sustainable I believe depend on whether or not the civilians are empowered to meet needs or not. So I work with a civilian with assembly supreme assembly for the management of the civilian administrative councils in Syria. So what I know about the council is not just based on my trip field trip to Aleppo I also know about the council in Jarablus for example the one in Membej in Aleppo also in the in the north and in other cities as well. One of the main challenges that the councils are facing is this empowerment component. I'll give an example. So they have ambitious projects to stabilize the community. For example the security committee in Aleppo within the Aleppo Revolutionary Transitional Council did not want the FSA to patrol deliberated areas. They wanted the FSA to fight only at the front lines and they wanted just like a regular police force to do the patrolling work to walk the beats. They appointed to do that they appointed a former Brigadier like a Brigadier General a defector. Used to serve in Asa Security Forces as Chief of Police in Aleppo. I met with him and he had plans and he wanted to start a community policing force and this is a concept that is need that needs to be introduced like into Syria. We've never had community policing in the country. Basically Syria was a police state and we had 17 different police formations but not a single one of them was to do community like was for community policing. So but the problem was that Brigadier General Shalaf didn't even have resources to buy uniforms for his recruits. Never mind salaries to retain them for like at least until after the transition. So that was one of the projects that they're working on. The second thing they were working on they were working on restoring the court system so that if for example the FSA the Free Syrian Army the main armed opposition if they capture an Assad soldier or thug or informant recruit whatever they wouldn't be executed. There would be a due process due process as much as possible given the circumstances there that would be a guarantee against human rights violations on the part of the opposition. They were working with judges and with people with degrees in law also defector judges but again again the funding for that court system was also an issue. The third thing they were working on they were working on they started out with a small medical committee and then they expanded the medical committee into like a medical council also elected a seven-member board and that medical council alone was running eight underground hospitals in Aleppo. I was able to visit two of them and just when I came back to DC one of the hospitals had been leveled by the Assad regime. So the thing is these people I was you know I'm Syrian I grew up in Syria and I know that we were not even allowed to talk about governing ourselves that was off limits. You would get you would have gotten into big trouble if you talked about for example a neighborhood one and two because of the state of emergency the country it was under for 50 years people were not allowed to get together on a regular basis. So all of a sudden you know I see civilians you know operating at such a sophisticated level but the harsh reality was the empowerment. I don't believe they are empowered to do the work they need to do although although this relationship this component this aspect that you raised about the relationship with the transitional government is essential because those councils are already accounted for in the national coalition of opposition and revolutionary forces that like who is unveiling I witnessed when I was in Doha also about two weeks ago. There are 14 seats from the 14 different governorants or the provinces in Syria that are part of this national coalition. New umbrella groups that represents all Syrian opposition. So they are already part of the not all of them one council from each city already part of this group and if recognition is extended to them then we're automatically extending these civilian efforts then the only part the only crucial part that would need to be taking care of is the empowerment. So Mohammed you're suggesting that what it takes to empower the people on the ground who are organizing themselves is money or to buy uniforms. Garbage trucks. To garbage trucks etc. But in my thinking what is more important for empowerment in a country that is going through a fundamental revolution is legitimacy. So can I ask each of you to address this question of how are these civilian formations on the ground in Syria able to build legitimacy. Are they successful at it and and what sources of legitimacy are they drawing on. Is it religious is it related to the Hajji is the respected elders is it a person with technical expertise and does it matter for right because presumably in the West there would be a concern about giving a local leader legitimacy because of his his historical authority in the community and maybe there would be a tendency to promote an electoral process. But so how do you how do you how would you relate to this question of legitimacy as it stands on the ground and looking forward. I can't tell what I've seen and what I've asked and how the people reacted. One of the findings is that every one I talked to everyone I was able to ask question whether local or activist or FSA member. I hardly ever remember any of them rejected the idea of elections. So these democracies as far as I can see it's it was a it's a well-ruled fact that you can argue about what kind of post Assad government is going to be like or whether you know Sharia how Sharia laws will be adapted and how much effective is going to be. But when you talk to each individuals they are well aware of the fact that there is about time to to do elections. But under the circumstances obviously it's not possible. For example in Idlib they recently just a week ago convened this city council in Turkish city of Antakya and they selected 24 people and most of them were able to make it there. But obviously half of Idlib right now under the regime control and the way they do it is that whoever is front lines of the revolution and have good relations with every part of the society that's what they did and they invited them they got together they have a plan right now they recognize and they want to get in contact with this new a revolutionary coalition body. So the legitimacy as far as I can see the people I mean whether we can recognize you know anyone we want but the people who start this revolution is going to ask for democratic election and participation. Is it the military that has the legitimacy on the ground right now? The military does have of course the military does have legitimacy because you know by the opposition in the minds and eyes of the people there are the ones that are doing the actual work on the ground until recently until the councils came into existence the FSA was doing relief work for example they were operating bakeries so yes they are the ones with the legitimacy on the ground however I spoke with one of my main objectives was to speak with as many civilians in Aleppo as it was possible and I thought that they all respected the work of the everyone I talked to respected the work of the councils and they respected the FSA but they saw the FSA as providing a service now okay but they saw the they wanted the council to lead the transition into the post Assad's area so legitimacy basically comes from the view by the way the view from the ground is very different from what you know how would you normally think analytically about the situation so there is overwhelming needs there is a huge issue with cooking gas that's the primary cooking fuel for people in Syria so if you can provide cooking gas you can build legitimacy so meeting needs can gain you legitimacy that's on the one hand on the other hand your history and what you've done can also gain you legitimacy let's not please don't be under the impression no one should be under the impression that these people you know were underground like underground for so long and they are just trying to get off the ground in fact a lot of them in the past used to organize protests used to do relief work used to function within local coordinating committees it's just we're at like a further stage in the organization that is taking place at the local level so now instead of local coordinating committees to you know organize protests and so forth they are now trying to expand the services that they are providing in Aleppo they were able to hold elections I wouldn't say it was like the election was perfect because again like the shelling and the bombardment barely stopped but that did happen and in fact there was an NPR journalist and she was able to see some of that and I believe she reported about the election that happened there so your history whether or not you can meet needs what you've done at what stage in your evolution as a revolutionary force or whatever you are all of these aspects can gain your legitimacy but without funding none of that can happen without funding none of that can happen okay so let's open it up for questions from the audience we have one back here who's there's someone with a mic yeah why don't you stand up and just speak loudly hopefully we'll get it on do we need to repeat the question for the cameras yes I just asked about the role of women in these new local governance efforts the the role that they're playing currently and the space available for them in the future I can tell what I've seen in both places in Aleppo and in Binnish there was no woman members at the council for understandable reasons I believe it's very conservative places very conservative people though woman I participated protest in Damascus as well and Idlib and Aleppo I've seen woman taking stages even in Binnish one woman was leading the protests and in that respect they are doing a lot of eight work and but other than that as far as I can see the council meetings that are I participated I did not see the woman I would tend to I tend to agree with that so so things are developing at two levels they're developing on the ground in terms of the civilian councils springing up across celebrated areas but they're also developing politically speaking at a national level so at a national level if you think of if you take the the new umbrella group the national coalition that came that was formed in Doha women are playing a significant role probably not in terms of percentage but in terms of having key positions so one of the deputy or let's say vice president of the national coalition is Suhaib Atassi and she's a very prominent activist in Syria now also to be clear women in Syria are part and parcel of the revolution in fact you know I hold a special admiration for them because I know of a lot of men at the early stages of the revolution they were extremely concerned about their physical safety and did not take face in protest at a time when a girl like Madhwal Ramyan challenged the most repressive regime in the Middle East and in the heart of Damascus and one of the oldest bazaars or sulks she she she protests against the regime and of course she was arrested so but I also know that women in those liberated areas are playing also a role but more of like behind the scenes in terms of relief in terms of medical care and so forth I came across lady doctors for example when I was in those underground hospitals in Aleppo in terms of women sitting on councils now no I the council that I encountered had no women sitting on councils but I'm I would not say it's because women they wanted to marginalize women but I would say it's because it was like it's highly dangerous to perform this this kind of job right now and sit on councils and for example and go back and forth between what they call the occupied areas in Aleppo and the liberated areas in Aleppo and so forth I am hopeful that things will change into the future especially because the council is stressing the council in Aleppo for example is stressing democratic values they're saying we want to help Aleppo transition into a post assets area and by the way a very important thing I need to highlight all of the heads of committees that I met with I attended a number of meetings by the council all of them introduced themselves to us as interim heads and that intrigued me I was I said why are you introduce introducing yourself to us as interim heads and the chairman said we don't want to give people the impression that we're taking advantage of the situation to impose ourselves on them in the future there will be elections and in fact just a month later sorry less than a month later they did like hold another round of elections so I'm hopeful that the future will be a lot more promising but as things stand now the country is still in the midst of war and everything is far from from perfect just like the at quick one more point that for example the council meetings were taking place at early night 10 p.m. midnight goes to to morning and you know those are places that there's a lack of electricity and it is dangerous so there are many reasons for women who have usually kids to stay at home that's the another way to look at it from those places okay Mona Yacubian thank you Mona Yacubian from the Stimson Center I'm wondering if you could talk about the composition of the local councils and the extent to which there is membership across sects and do these councils offer the hope for a post Assad Syria that features cross sectarian cooperation I talked a little bit of components segments in the beginning in albab for example they were three different segments it was the teachers and the youth and the elders the elders said the communication and they they were able to talk to regime till they left the city at the end of the July when they they were besieged for example elders were the ones who discussed the how they can leave the city so in in this particular place in Idlib for example they they are out of their city council convened in Turkish city inside in Binnish the place I stayed they were not able to actually elect a council because of some of the tensions and also even though the regime forces left Binnish it is a north of Idlib is 50 000 populated city even though the regime forces left Binnish last November Idlib north Idlib is much more dangerous than the Aleppo and north of Aleppo but I think the question is getting at there is this sectarian fragmentation in Syria and the I think also the hidden story that we don't hear about often is also the regional fragmentation between Syrians who may be of the same sect or religion but who live in the countryside versus the urban centers so the question and is an important one are these councils are they working to bring in a more diverse group of people and if not if they are not doing it is it is it possible is it a possible strategy to pursue through these councils okay so sectarian wise this depends on the demographics of the town or the village or the region so for example in in areas that are majority muslim for example areas like overwhelming majority muslim areas the majority of the people on the councils are muslim in areas where you have for example Sunni muslim Sunni muslims yes Sunni muslims in areas where for example there are like like most of the people of the town are christian the christians are the ones that are calling the shats in in the community so it it basically depends on the demographics of the area so that's sectarian wise now in terms of ethnic wise I met with I met with trocumann or the Turkmen and they have liberated their they are in control of there are minority in Syria probably about a million and a half to two million and they they have their own language they have their own you know culture their own traditions but they also speak Arabic they are again it's not Arabs that are running the affairs of that community it's it's the the trocumann or the Turkmen are the are the ones that are running the affairs so in terms of let me just say one more thing in terms of city rith or city countryside we call it countryside or the periphery the majority of the people on the council were from the city itself however the majority of of the FSA people were from from the rith or from the countryside however that colonel that everyone referred to was from the city Colonel Aghidi so is it correct then to say that the the people are organizing themselves into governing councils within their particular ethnic or religious community it's a bit tricky it depends again it depends on on it depends on the region I'm saying it's happening naturally so for example in like a like one of the christian cities like sorry small villages the majority of of of those in that city are christians so it's not that I wouldn't say it's because you know you would only be admitted into it could only be a part of the council if you're a christian but the majority of the population there is christian like with a very for example small minority muslim population but again that's not true for everywhere in a lot of areas in Syria you know different sects coexist so I also but want to be clear on that you know islamist versus secular that one of the cities that I was in they were not able to elect a leader and council because of the increasing even though proportionally islamists are lower they want to have bigger say it is another point of however political opposition wise the SNC the Sierra National Council used to be the main opposition umbrella group at the most the last meeting that we attended in Doha about 25 percent of the political opposition like were minorities and now also when it comes to the national coalition for opposition revolutionary forces also the minorities are also playing a role in fact the first ambassador that the national coalition following the recognition that was extended from France to the national coalition the first ambassador was that was appointed to Paris was Mundan Mahos and he is a Syrian Alawite opposition figure okay we have more questions Samar hi thank you my name is Samar from the Arab American Institute and thank you all for a very fascinating discussion you talked a little bit about the relationship between the civilian opposition and the armed rebels and I was wondering if maybe you could speak to the relationship of both to the national coalition particularly in Aleppo and around Aleppo where it sounds like a lot of them rejected the coalition outright thank you I can't talk about for example this sample city of Al-Bab there were 15 battalions in and around the city and basically the FSA were a part of the station within the city this is part of the city the ones that I met I actually they hosted me in Damascus as well these are the people who live in the cities and who have been there for maybe centuries and they are part of the FSA so at the same time the same person the member of the FSA and the other brother was in the council the relations as far as I could see was for example there was a sharia court in Al-Bab the way the sharia court they created is that every battalion submitted one person for this sharia religious council and then they became the help of it became the Cadi so you can see that these battalions are basically considered as the legitimate part of the society and they submit and they basically participate issues such as judiciary of the city so and and civilian councils are trying this is thank you so much this is a very good segue into what I want to say the civilian councils are trying to rest more and more control from the FSA but of course in a way that would not create conflict or would minimize conflict as much as possible so that they can so that hopefully the future Syria can be a civilian democracy and that's why I'm saying the relationship is cooperative and also competitive and whether or not civilians will have the upper hand mainly largely depends on whether or not they can meet the needs of the people and I'm sorry I just want to also shed some further light on your question so when I was in Aleppo I was able to meet with the main commanders I met with a commander of for example Brigitte like that's a main brigade with about 22 battalions I met with that's another group I met with the council and I think early on in sorry like I mentioned earlier today that I said 80 percent of those fighting in Aleppo not 100 percent of those fighting in Aleppo call us under the leadership under the Aleppo military revolutionary council so you also have 20 percent and those 20 percent are either criminal gangs trying try to take advantage of the chaos and polish and loot and you also have the small extreme group that is Jabhat Nusrah and that is very well funded so those are because they are well funded and because the majority are severely underfunded like I met with people fighting at the front lines with a few bullets in their clips I met with a commander of a brigade that did not have enough food to go around and the people fighting under him were complaining against that shortage and saying how long are we going to continue like this because my friend who has just joined this small group is eating Samni Arabi which is a kind of food that only the rich in Syria especially now can afford so there's also that aspect of who's well funded and who's not well funded so those are trying to portray themselves as the ones that are the ones that that are leading the fighting Aleppo and in fact when the national coalition was formed in Doha they immediately rejected the coalition they said we want an Islamic state and we don't want this coalition we don't want to move like more towards democracy and so forth they said an Islamic state based on justice just to be accurate however and of course that was reported and that was a source of concern however when I watched a video none of the main leaders that I met with in Aleppo were in the video and those people were saying were the main leaders were the ones leading the fighting Aleppo and so I got in touch with what the commander said and just a few days later the leaders of the main commander of the main groups in Aleppo such as Abdul Qadir al-Saleh the leader of the main fighting group in Aleppo put up a video on YouTube and he said these people are a minority they don't represent us and of course I know that's true and all journalists that have been there know that that's true so and they said we recognize the council the opposition group that formed in Doha but again the challenge is these I think of them as moderates these moderates are severely underfunded so in the past it used to be you know ammunition and arms now it's even they're experiencing food shortages and this small group is very well funded so whether or not it can expand its base largely depends on whether or not the 80 percent can receive support from the international community right but Muhammad I just had to make one small point of contestation to what you're saying and that is that I think right now it may be the case that people in Syria would be compelled to support to align to be included in a group that is able to provide resources because there is immediate need but that doesn't mean that those that those allegiances will maintain in a in a future future Syria so I think I think we need to be careful in how we frame the issue of assistance in terms of being able to manipulate what direction Syria goes in of whether it goes in a radical direction or or not radical direction whether it's adopts an Islamic an identity or not I think if if you look at Egypt I mean we have no idea what's going to happen in Syria it's it's a long road ahead but that doesn't negate the fact that assistance may be immediately of use and of need but we it doesn't it doesn't mean that we cannot we had we can't we need to still think about what will be important for Syria and Syrian interest in the longer term definitely assistance can create harm and can create good and it needs to be done carefully yes please Tom thank you my name is Tom Getman I'm an NGO executive when I was in Syria two years ago and correspondence I've had since Christians and Alawites are very concerned to drill deeper in what Munna was saying about what happens when things change because they've been against morally spiritually they've been against the Assad regime but they've been seen to be and often are in in the realm of the regime and so I'm wondering what did you find when you talk to people like that and are they participating in the councils I think that's really what Munna was getting at as well how are the people who have been a part or have seen to been a part of the regimes aura of protection now participating because they said they were against him are they really thank you for your question it can be tricky because when those minorities are shifting allegiances and they are shifting allegiances and in fact I know for example that some of them are not only participating in councils some of them are participating in the battle itself you can for example think about the battalion of the messiah so but however a lot of them even when especially when it comes to the Finians even when they shift allegiances they don't go public about that so so that's a tricky part and of course yeah and that's that's understandable because that would that would have huge consequences I personally work with you know Christian activist I one of my best friends is in is an Alawite activist whose mother was killed so the family was split the father was a pro regime person the mother was a pro revolution person and then there was a divorce my friend is an activist she is now at the border the Syrian Turkish borders and her mom was killed she thinks that it was killed by her father but anyway so I we like work with Christian activists or activists from from other minorities but I cannot say that when that happens you know you're gonna be seeing a lot of YouTube videos taken place and I'm not that's on the one hand on the other hand I'm not saying also that this has like everyone is shifting allegiances so it's like there's a delicate balance but I I know from the from many conversations about it with people that as soon as that sort of regime falls they will declare some of that or all of that and yes and to prevent that I think that the West ought to do more uh obviously the pulse of arming and not arming it it has been discussed over and over again but we are now many people argue that we are at a turning point and some aspect that the Aleppo is going to fall within six to eight weeks then if not today the West is going to involve when they're going to get involved if they for many reasons obviously we cannot go into them for many reasons they want to stay away till this moment at least now they have to see this emergency and take a steps they have some kind of leverage over the spirit you can think also of the spokesperson spokesperson for the the Syrian ministry of of foreign affairs he recently defected and and he's he also belongs to a minority in in in in Syria so we're seeing more and more of that happening every day but what I'm saying is they tend to keep a low profile did these councils state an intention to do outreach to different communities and or did they have any protection strategies that were developing through their conflict resolution programs to address these issues thank you so much so this is a very interesting aspect the conflict resolution issue so the council in Aleppo for example like I I like at one of the meetings that I attended they were talking about reaching out to the Armenian Christians in Aleppo about what to do is when when the Assad regime when the entire city has been liberated and and how they can minimize perceptions about them for example supporting the Assad regime and and that sort of thing so I was happy with that outreach the other thing that I was very extremely happy with was that they were also trying to do conflict resolution elsewhere and like not just in Aleppo but elsewhere so there was Tal Abiyad Tal Abiyad is a as a border crossing the Syrian Turkish border and the area has been liberated but there was like a conflict between the different groups that participating in liberated Tal Abiyad and because of that the border crossing was not functional it was now it was closed and they wanted that border crossing to be opened so they sent a number of their members over and they were doing that sort of conflict resolutions because there are curds in that area there are Arabs in that area so yes the other thing there was also attention between Arabs and Kurds when I was there and and the head of the council Dr. Khanji was like I was with them on the car and he was on the phone and he was negotiating also a settlement sort of like functioning as a mediator settlement so that that dispute can be settled so that's why I'm saying empowering those councils is not an option if we want to help the country transition smoothly into a democratic civilian-led post Assad Syria thank you David Smith would you we've talked about outside influences primarily in terms of the west can you talk about the Saudis and can you perhaps give us your thoughts on the US position relative to its relation with the Saudis can you do that the ones that are providing the most assistance in fact military assistance are not the Saudis are the Qataris but the Saudis are also providing but I'm saying the Qataris are playing a bigger role however this tends to be exaggerated like the role how much assistance so I'll share this with you the council this is a bit tricky for me so if every I would say for example one fighting group okay main fighting group one council military council was every 15 to 20 days receiving supplies sufficient for one day's worth of fighting like for one day's worth of fighting and that's why invariably the answer that I got from the different groups that I met is that we don't have enough ammunition and people at the front lines have to withdraw more often than not and that's why we have not been able to complete the liberation of the city so I would say the assistance that it's being extended is sufficient to perpetuate the conflict indefinitely but never to put it to rest so I just just want to be clear on that so yes assistance is being extended but it's very meager that it borders on basically I mean relatively speaking the other part to the party to the conflict Assad regime is they have like their military power is is huge so I would say relatively speaking it would border on nothing and that's why like I'll share something else it was the first month when I was in Aleppo it was the first month the fighters had received salaries the first month and the person that shared that with me and he was in a main leadership position he said you know I'll be honest with this the first month we've received salaries about $150 so that people can support their families because they all have wives and kids and so forth and I'm not sure about next month so although this has been going on for 20 months this is the first month that was the first month they had received salaries and they were saying this is not unsustainable okay so we have money this month $150 each this month but I don't know about next month so yes are the Qataris giving money to the civilian councils? the civilian councils are trying to draw upon old owners so they're trying to depend for either they're trying to draw on for example rich Syrians like the Syrian like the diaspora internationally so there are so I wouldn't say the Qataris others are the main main source of support for the councils the council I know that the councils are drawing on they're welcoming support from any from anyone I can add two points actually the one that in Aleppo when you go into Aleppo in the center of the city there's when the fight is going on say Saif al-Devla or Baba Hadid places and I was able to take a pick at their guns and you know what kind of guns they are using I would swear 89% of them is just from 60s 70s old 8047s or you know I don't know much about guns but the people who know and the way they look and just a few RPGs this is the battle of Aleppo is supposed to be the the most important battle if the Aleppo falls is you know going to be amazingly different momentum and these people don't have anything to fight for and the second point again I'm going to build on the Mohammed's points that when you talk to Syrians on the ground and through sky from every part of the city our country the understanding and the perception is that the the west or the outsiders are helping just enough to counter and just contribute to stalemate it doesn't give the winning age but it doesn't just you know leave them abandoned but just enough to go on the next day's fight which is basically recipe for disaster recipes to just drag on this war even even longer we have a question here and then another one in the back afterwards thank you my name is Narchakam I'm from Jordan we know in Jordan that there is a very healthy smuggling culture under the Assad regime how they are doing now and if they are doing well are they getting legitimacy thank you are you speaking about the smuggling culture yes yes so in fact there was a smuggling culture not just in in the southern of the country with Jordan but also with Lebanon so it was Lebanon and Jordan like I don't have a lot of information about that I'll just share with you what I know the conditions at this Syrian Jordanian border it's basically it's very dangerous at the Syrian Jordanian border and I know that the Assad regime for example deployed hundreds of snipers make sure that no more high-level defections occur because it's easy for all those officials that want to defect to go through to defect and flee to Jordan then to flee to Turkey because you know it's a lot more convenient so a lot of snipers have been deployed to that border and it's defecting and inflaying the country is through the Syrian Jordanian border is very dangerous basically the whole economy not just that smuggling aspect has been devastated especially the value of the Syrian pound in 2010 August 2010 a Syrian pound was about 40 like one dollar was about 46 Syrian pounds it's now 87 to 93 it depends on whether or not you can find that hard currency so I'm not sure what those smugglers are doing exactly right now but I know that it's like committing suicide because anything that tries to any suspicious behavior at the border will be met with the barrage of bullets can you address this question of smuggling and I assume you mean smuggling from Jordan to the rebels right I think as I understand it it's very murky in terms of how arms are getting across and perhaps what is reaching the fighters more is money rather than weapons well I'm sorry I thought you were talking about the culture of smuggling not necessarily arms like this okay exactly because people use the smuggle food and commodities and what I know is the you know the FSA leaders that I was able to talk to I was always one of the first questions I was asking how do you get these guns and there were a couple of different answers to that one of them that they mostly buy from the regime and the people who sell them actually not the smuggling of the guns as far as I know and I was told it was just again very murky and so I don't have the first hand witnessing on smuggling but apparently also some of the Turkish border is being used but I won't be able to if you want to zero in on the smuggling of weapons I definitely have some information I can share from what I hear from the FSA in Damascus when it comes to gun smuggling to Damascus so it's three or four times as more difficult to smuggle guns into Damascus like basically AK-47s then it is for example to smuggle things from Turkey into Syria and until a few months ago even Jordanian authorities were kept controlled the borders pretty tightly so it was very difficult and that's why an AK-47 would cost three or four times as much as it would cost in northern Syria so that but smuggling yes was this trickle light trickle of things was there the second source was as Ilhan pointed out buying from corrupted regime officials all of them are corrupt in fact so I mean again relatively maybe I shouldn't have said that anyway so buying from those corrupted officials and the third thing and this is the main source of weapons is basically the booty that the FSA picks up after battles and this has been a major resource or source of arms for them okay we had a question in the back of the room hi there my name is Rebecca Hopkins I'm with Courage Services we can't hear you can you can you hear me now yes better okay thank you my name is Rebecca Hopkins I'm with Courage Services thank you for speaking and I was hoping you could talk a little bit about what if any coordination is occurring between village councils and regional councils and and across the country that type of thing thank you okay just 10 days ago the council in Aleppo completed the integration of the city and the reef the periphery the countryside and so now the council represents the entire governor or the entire province of Aleppo so if you think about that as a case in point the more those civilians the more those councils sort of like are empowered the more they they have the world with all or the ability to reach out to more pockets or more regions and incorporate them into the council so again 10 days ago the reef and the Medina the city and the reef were incorporated and they give us we were speaking with one of our main contacts there and they said the deal came through today and it was good news for us okay and the other I think the question is really so can the council in Aleppo link and connect and work with the council in Damascus but also is there a council in Damascus so to what Damascus is completely different than Aleppo so yes the FSA is closing in on the regime of course and the news is being tightened around you know Asan's neck but still it's completely different like in Aleppo 70% of the city is under control of the opposition in Damascus it's different so so the dynamic is different and how people are organizing themselves is also different but however the more Assad is constantly consistently losing ground is there a coordination between the different governance in Syria okay so I so the council in Aleppo said we want to make sure that this is a good example that can inspire the other councils in Syria and turn into an example for the rest of the city for the rest of the councils to emulate in the sense that they want to be interns only in the sense of inclusivity in the sense of reaching out to others and so forth so yes they wanted to turn it into an example to be emulated but this is all all work in progress right now I really don't have anything to add to that I mean I visited few cities and I was able to witness all those but the one thing I might add in Aleppo and Al-Babi they were close Kurdish villages and there was no cooperation and there was some actually animosity but other than that I thought that you also with your permission I thought you had a question right sorry we have a question here and I did did you have a hand okay so why don't we take these two questions together and then have answer and close the session my name is Mike Beard and I'm wondering what advice would you give to the Obama administration for proceeding into the future my name is Mahir Qayyum I just blog a lot about Syria quick question I haven't yet heard any discussion on what the local councils might be doing to track the potential not the potential the actual war crimes of raped women where does that stand is that a result of the underrepresentation of women on the councils thank you can I start with the second question first yes okay so the second question so civil society in general civil society right now in Syria is not restricted to these councils that are springing up or emerging in the liberated areas people of different professions are also coming together organizing themselves according to profession so for example when I was in Istanbul and can I share that you were with me in Istanbul as well okay so there was a like a conference and a lot of activists have you know had crossed the borders into Turkey where we're able to meet with them one of the groups we met with for example was the the council of free judges so all of those free judges all of those judges that have defected okay and said we're not gonna continue to stamp you know sort of like decisions already made by the Assad regime have come together organize themselves into this council of free judges and they are specifically and if you're interested I can connect you with them they are specifically documenting rapes against women and one of them gave a very like a speech that was very painful for me to hear like explaining explaining you know how even savage that like how savage the rape that was taken but it wasn't I mean every rape act of rape is savage but the way also rape sometimes happens in Syria is is also like I can't think of words to describe it so yes so lawyers as well there's also the council of free lawyers and they're also coming together and and and they're trying to reach out to FSA they're trying to reach out to council and in Aleppo they're already working with some of the judges are already defective defector judges already working with the council on restoring the court system so yes don't be under the impression that this nascent democracy that's emerging in Syria is only limited to councils in fact civil society is emerging after a half a century of being repressed okay and the last and perhaps most important question is what should the Obama administration do for Syria well just today actually they Obama administration designated Nusra Front as a terrorist organization I don't obviously don't have enough intelligence to judge but it looks like it could be a terrorist organization but the point is for example designating this organization as terrorist organization today in the middle of everything the fighters that have improved their skills with fighting with the Assad regime and designating them as a terrorist organization I just don't know how this is going to help the rebel chaos in Aleppo this is just one example from today Obama administration has been I believe made a decision to stay away and unfortunately when the first mission peace mission was failed in the beginning of 2012 it was the first the year that the president had to start his campaigning year so you know when you look at it there are reasons for for you to stay away but always the one thing that overlooked is the way that they can intervene and gain a leverage it's not only putting boots on the ground this is the understanding of Washington many people are here when you talk about helping Syria they think that another war it is basically giving enough help enough aid to FSA factions that have been fighting for over a year and there are many commanders that have been proved to be very trusted people I really don't know how much this administration tried to find the good people because when you talk to the officials there well how do I know who's good and who's bad if you started just waiting or trying to find your man now you're probably too late already but the problems it has been a year and I believe it could have been found and and I this is my last point I personally know a couple of people who have been living in the U.S. for 20-30 years went back financing battalions and fighting themselves and at least they could be easily found but unfortunately they always complained that they couldn't get a audience from this administration so so your answer is that they that the U.S. government should provide more support to the insurgency definitely and in the form of heavy arming heavy arming okay in terms of recommendations for the administration first and foremost they need to understand that time is not on their side it's quite urgent and in fact time is working against them so they either and it's simple they either step in and fill in the void and or they will they would risk or jeopardize U.S. national security interests in Syria especially that Syria is a key country in that key region and and Syria is surrounded by by allies of the United States now how to do in terms of how to do that it's first they need to empower those civilian councils so the U.S. sends a relief into the country humanitarian relief into the country but that all of that goes through third party organizations such as UN and other international NGOs first of all you need to eliminate the middle man you need to work with the people on the ground you need to work with the councils this is good for strategic reasons this is good for for humanitarian reasons the strategic reasons first of all you would be forging the strategic relationship with the people that that are either calling the shots or will it can be empowered to call the shots or will be calling the shots in future Syria you increase your influence over the outcome in a key country in a key region second of all you empower this nascent democracy that's emerging and you help shape you know what comes after Assad if you are meeting the needs you can you can both leverage if you're not meeting needs you will create sort of like sort of like anti like sentiments that are not very favorable to you because you would be seen as you know as a party that has abandoned Syrians the French in fact another recommendation would be doing what the French and British are actually doing so the French and the British are really working with the councils on the ground the French ambassador is very active he goes to Antakya for example he meets with people sitting on councils that's a city on the border on the borders with Syria and they provide direct aid to the councils themselves and you know the British also do the same and the French and the British extended recognition to the National Coalition there are ambassadors in London in Paris Spain also recognize them the European Union also did the same so we need to be we need to catch up we're way behind second second recommendation is this has been going on for 20 months and I would although sometimes you know this argument of we don't know the bad guys and the good guys I don't buy so much like I don't buy that like I don't buy that so because there is a vetting process and the department of state or some let's say some branches of government are in contact with the military councils across the country in fact they designated a group today as a terrorist organization so that they know who's good and who's bad so what they need to do is to engage a situation more proactively otherwise this group for example that they designated as terrorist organization will continue for example to fill the vote or fill the vacuum and meet needs and then and then I don't know what the I don't know what the conversation about Syria will look like a few months or six months down the road so unless you engage even if you don't know the good guys from bad guys you need to start somewhere you need to engage a situation unless you engage a situation okay you will have less influence going forward so engage in the situation being proactive about what's happening and doing that before it's too late because it's basically the end game for the Assad regime now and whether or not the U.S. helps with that will determine what sort of relationship that Syria and the U.S. will have in the future just one quick point Washington I believe things that they've been doing a lot of good work and I believe the perception they think that they are very well liked by the Syrian people and is getting better every day but it is not the case the first time very recently protests in Syria started condemning U.S. along with Russia and Iran and this Friday if I am not mistaken it is going to be again the condemning U.S. Friday so obviously whatever the this administration has been doing is not enough not winning hearts and minds of Syrian people okay well we're way over time I want to thank everyone for coming and thank our speakers for sharing your personal insights thank you so much for having us thank you thank you so much for having us