 Welcome to Toffy TV today. I'm Joe by Luton Tarnwynger Callum, ych man am Big Evertonian. Callum, thanks very much for coming on the show. No problem, no problem mate. Is it a bit strange for you at the moment, cos obviously, like we all are, we're basically socially isolating and social distancing and everything, it's, you know, as a professional footballer, must be very, very tough for you at the minute with, in terms of keeping up with the training and everything? Yeah, definitely, obviously, it's annoying for everyone at the moment, isn't it? Obviously being stuck in and that, but you've been trying to stay fit really, and just focus on staying fit to go back, and obviously we don't know when we're going to be back in, but it's a bit frustrating, but hopefully a few weeks or maybe a month or so will be back into it. I suppose you're just like everybody else, just not being told anything at the minute, because obviously the government guidelines, you know, are not, we're not getting to a point with this pandemic where they can say, right, we can probably start, you know, doing things again. So, as a footballer, have you not been given, like, downtime? Cos what I mean by that is Blackburn, I've seen Blackburn last week, they basically decided to end their season and give their players three weeks off. Is that out of the loop, nor are you just trying to keep yourself ticking over? Yeah, it has actually, yeah, so last week and the week before, he said, you can do a bit of work if you want, but kind of use it as like light session type of thing, and then this week start from today, we're up to open a little bit again. So it's like a talk session today, and then it's like a normal week now for the next week or two, and then I think we've got another week then that's a light week, so the third week. But the clubs are kind of guessing as well when we're going to be back in, cos obviously no one knows, do they? No, so it's such a weird situation and obviously none of us have experienced anything like this before. It is mad, we're not having kind of like an end date at the moment. Is that clear? Yeah, it's all a bit strange. But let's talk a little bit, we'll come back to, no, we'll come back to Luton and we'll come back to your career and all that. Still a big appetite on you? Yeah, it still gets to a few games when I can. I've gone to the West Dam game to see the OA1 and the Arsenal OA1, cos obviously you were down in London. We'll still go to games when I can, yeah. Definitely my family's big inventory, and half my mates are, so it's a big part of my life, yeah. I don't know whether I've forgiven you yet still, seven years later, for that FA Cup goal of course. But we will come on to that. So in terms of growing up, just the family you just said, their family have ever thrown in. So who was like your first evident hero growing up? Big dunk, definitely. When I was growing up I had them on the back of all my tops. Yeah, I'd definitely say big dunk, yeah. It's weird, isn't it, to suppose, when you become a player like yourself. What's it like when you've certainly played against that? Is it strange, or is it just another game, or is it obviously if you made to lose as well? Is it tough one, or do you just get into that zone? It's never left me to be honest, most players are like, why do you care so much about everything in that? And I've always been like, there's nothing strange about everything around me. It's my family, my mates. So most 95% of players, they're not bothered about, they have the team you're supposed to make here, but they're not that bothered. They always want to meet up, because I get too into it. I'm too into it. So when that game came, that waking game, obviously I'd come through the academy of everything. So that was a massive game for me, that. So I was like, I was proper up for that game, but I was the most nervous I've ever been. I felt sick before the game in that, and it was just mad. I felt sick after it, to be fair. Well, felt sick, Jordan, to be fair after a baraf fan awa. Let's talk about your career then, you've just mentioned it. Then, obviously, you started off at Everton's academy. I don't know me, when you were a kid. So, a did that come about? You just decided you were playing and just got invited down? Sorry, you went off then a little bit. Sorry, I'm just saying, you started at Everton's academy when you were a kid. So did you just get invited there, or did you decide you were playing? No, I got, I was doing, where was I now? I was in Prescott Leisure Centre, and there was an Everton coach. Jo, his name was. And they only had one session, and he said, he said, come down. And then come down to Bellefield at the time it was. And I was only six. And then that was it, I was there till, I was there till I was 15, six till I was 15. And when I got let go, it killed me. Like I was a bit bitter about it, to be honest. But now looking back, it's the best thing that ever happened to me, but at the time, I was devastated. Cos I'd obviously came through for that long, and it was a big part of my life and that. But I had some great times coming through, and I was around most of the year, playing in tournaments and everything. I had a good side as well. So, good memories to look back on now, but as I said, when I did get released at the time, when I was 16 just before the scholarship, I was a bit bitter, to be honest. Took it hard. Who was in the youth team, or who were you playing with? Anyone else go on and make it for the 19s? Yeah, Jack Rockwell was in my age. Oh, was he? No, it was Jack Rockwell. And then Adam Fo, so the year below. I think there's only Jack, there's only Jack in males of our age that played at the highest level. But it was a good side at the time. You know, when you were released, cos obviously it's the worst thing ever, isn't it? You know, especially for your boy or club. And being there as well. How did you channel that? Because it can make a lot of people crumble kind of things. I couldn't get over it for a bad 18 months, to be honest with you. You know, people like yourself are able to just... Did you just decide that you'd have to work harder, or did they give you that desire to prove them wrong? No, definitely. I think it's make or break, isn't it? I think I had a few months where I didn't know what to do myself. I wasn't going to school, my head was gone. I didn't know what to do cos it was all I'd ever done. I was hardly going to school cos I was training with everything. Twice, three times a week with the youth team when I was 15. So, I was thinking, I'm on course, you know what I mean? I was promised that I'd kept on type of thing. So, when it happened, it was a big shock. And then I had a few months of not knowing what was going on. And then it was in the January, after Christmas. And then everything got in total winging. And then I had a child of winging. And I turned up there and all me everything gear. I didn't look back then, I was since. I think that kind of, I went there and I was the best player, like I wasn't as young as. So, it was a big confidence boost. And everyone had gone past me cos they were bigger and more developed. And I was only small. Then when I went to Wigan, they were in the academy at the time. They were at the School of Excellence. So, I've gone there and they got me confidence back. And then that was it. I didn't look back. So, it was definitely the best thing that happened to me at the time. I couldn't say it. Yeah. I mean, I said, kid, it's your well falls apart. You've seen loads of, you know, you see loads of play. You'll have seen lads who you've thought, oh, he's got a chance of making it. And they released it. They don't play football again. Or they don't really get away. The potential is such a tough thing. So, what was that like? Was it a culture shock, would you say, going to Wigan from Everton? Cos obviously, we know how the facilities are like in Everton. Was it a culture shock going to Wigan? Or was it just the four seats there that just carried you through? Obviously, they were at the School of Excellence at the time. Everything was at the academy. We'd had everything done for us when we looked after them. We had all the best gear. Just the little things you took for granted. You've gone there and you're turning on like a... You take it for granted, but you can't. You give me a bit more fight, I think. So, I had to play against players who were just smashing you the way an academy players, you know what I mean? I think that's where my aggression came from. Cos when I was younger, I wasn't like that. And then, as I got a bit more aggressive as I came through, and I never had that when I was a kid. I never tackled, so I definitely came from somewhere around that age. You've got a kind of... I suppose you've got a stand-up, haven't you? A bit countered there, especially if you're not physically a big lad. You've got to learn to look after yourself. We'll come on to your tackling in a bit. Well, maybe one tackle, that I'm sure. We won't go over it too much, but one tackle, that wasn't great. But you made your debut in 2009 against Portsmouth, and in doing so became Wiggins' youngest ever player to play in the Premier League, so that must have been a proud moment for you. Yeah, that was massive, yeah. I think Steve Bruce was the man at the time. I'd been doing well in training. I'd only just started training with the fifth team, and then we were winning one there. I think we were safe mid table. It was a good side that I think we had. And he's put me on for the last 20 years. That was a big day. But I would have liked more people to be there, because I didn't know what was coming. I had the family day in a few weeks, but not as my career went on. I had a big following. For that day, there wasn't as many as I would have liked there, but it wasn't guaranteed that I was going to be in the squad. Never mind going on. It was a great day, yeah. Throwing things at you last minute, one of them. Keeps you less nervous, I suppose, but then for the other side, if you've got family, you want there, it's different. Obviously you made your debut there, and youngest ever player and all that, so that comes with a little bit of hype as well. I was reading it was like 18 months before you played again in the first team. Was it difficult for you the next season to get your head around the fact that or did you just take part in your education, because you've come on and made your debut in the Premier League, and then I think I was reading the whole of the next season, you weren't involved in the first team, so was that difficult to almost take that step back? Yeah, that was very tough, that I remember, because I wouldn't take something off the gas, because I wanted to get my chance there to come on, done well, and then I just forced, that was it then, I'm in the first team now, and then that was the last game of the season, went on Aldi, went a bit mad on me Aldi's, ends up getting glans of a fever, and I was out for three months, missed pre-season, couldn't run, was knackered, so Martin has just came in that summer, and then I didn't get a look and then I was back in the days, he came over to me and said listen, you'll get your chance, you just need to build your fitness, just stand on the back up, because I hadn't been well, so obviously I was going because I missed pre-season, and it took a while to get back involved, so I felt like I had to do it all again for the new manager, but I basically did, so I had to do it, so then he had another 18 months, I had to prove then to the beta all the time that I was good enough, and eventually I got my chance. Yeah, so you came on as a sub against Arsenal in the League Cup, and then a few months later scored your first goal for Wigan against Hull in the FA Cup, and then went out on loan to Blackpool, had seen for a few months, so I was like going out on loan again, was it a little bit, was there a pathway then? Did you feel like there was a pathway? There was like an idea of what you were going to do, or were you a little bit like, I've just scored in the FA Cup, why am I going out on loan? Do you know what I mean? Did you take the loan thing? I wasn't happy at the time, no, I thought I should have been playing, so I wasn't happy, but he was saying this, going prove yourself in the championship, Blackpool with a good side at the time, and then going prove yourself, come back. I went there, I loved it from the first minute, I enjoyed it, done well, and then to be fair, struck through his word, I ended up getting the team, not long after and got more involved, but I feel like I got more respect after that, because obviously they never could do it in the championship, so instead of playing reserve team football and in training, it was like he's playing a man's game now in the championship, that was the kind of bit that swayed it, I came back and I felt like I was getting more respect, it shouldn't really be like that, but it was, I felt like I was getting treated not like a young lad anymore, do you know what I mean? I think we see, I mean, like an Everton perspective of that, we've seen it, funnily enough, went to Blackpool as well, and he went on loan, he'd been on loan and come back, and he was looked at differently, and it happens, doesn't it? You're right, Lee and Osmond and other Everton have gone on loan to Carl Island, Derbyn, when they come back, they're almost viewed differently, and that was your experience of it as well, of like, oh, he's a man now, as opposed to like this prospect, yeah? It definitely does help a loan move, but as I say, I was lucky that I got a good club and a good team at the time, cos it can go all the way, if you pick a bad loan move, which most players have done, you struggle, you don't play for six months or a year, cos you're not signed to that club, and it's tough, but Ian Holloway was a great manager, he was good with me, and we played attack on football, and we were most sad, so I really enjoyed my time there, and they definitely helped get breakthrough at Wigan. And then obviously, 2013 was the big year, wasn't it for you, the big, where proper breakthrough season for you, if you like. I know you've had bits and pieces and you've done well on that, but I remember you scoring against Huddersfield for Wigan, I think it was on the, sure it was on the telly, and you scored the crack and little goal in that, and that was the game before, Everton, wasn't it? That was the fifth round, I think. So when the draw is made and it's Everton and Goulderson, what are you thinking? I got them on the last game, so we had an interview after the game, and he said, I said, just before the draw came out, I don't have said any interview, and I've got in the shower, 10 minutes later, and the lad has come running in, Everton and Goulderson, so I couldn't believe it before they go on to me, and then they started, then I started panicking all me family, me mate to buzzen, and then, that was it, really, that was obviously the next round, weren't it? Just, I mean... Well, that was made up, wasn't it, Dad? From our perspective, of like Wigan at home in the quarter-final, where you think there's Moise at the good side, then as you well know, and we're thinking opportunity for Wembley, Wigan done well, but we're playing quite well, you know, we've got a good side, and that day was just, it was a bizarre game to watch, obviously your experience was massively different, but from a fan's perspective, watching that game, it was bizarre, because like the first 25 minutes, we'd done all right, and we were probably in control of the game, and three minutes later, we were three and a little down, it was mad one of us, but I mean... We couldn't believe it either. I mean, you took it, Phil Neville's gave you the great pass, though, Callum, let's be honest, the lovely defence splitting ball by Phil Neville, and what are you thinking, cos you're running it this time, it was quite quick still, and you're obviously quick, but... To be fair, when people ask me, like, to be between meeting, not about that goal, and that game stuff, I always say that tactics are tactics for that day, where there are those tactics, that Phil Neville pass. Them tactics were waiting for that to happen. I had to, me and... I think it was Coney, had to leave the... Everton back four with the ball, and so, I say it in points, and then we'd been training on that, that stuff like that happening, and then the break through, and that's where the second goal coming from, them tactics, so I always say, he deserves credit for massively for that game, cos we've changed our tactic completely for that Everton side, like we respected that team. You know what I mean? And then, obviously, I was looking back at that goal, when I see it now, I think I'm not that quick now, it's fast here, so, I don't know, it's a mad one. Great, I mean, it was a lovely finish into that far con. I said before like about the anger, you're the angriest man, ever, when I've been looking back at your goals, you've got a cob on every time you score. It should be over to you. I can't smile when I'm playing, I don't know why. I have to be switched on, so I feel like I have to be angry and aggressive to get the best of me, and by Graham Jones, I imagine now, I always say stuff to kind of wire me up and get the best of me, cos he knows he says you're better when you're angry, so he says stuff to piss me off before he puts me on or plays, so, it seems weak, so, I don't know, it's always been like that. I think it's like a Scouts, Maisie side kind of thing, isn't it? Cos obviously you see Wayne Dooney, who's always had a cob on, you know, players from your neck of the woods, like Steven Gerrard and Joey Barton, and people like that of all, you know, that anger, like that, you know, even Tony Ibert, who's the quietest fella ever, loved the 50-50, always looked like he had a cob on. Yeah, so, maybe it's just that kind of how we play football in this neck of the woods, maybe. But obviously, that was an incredible day for you, beating us 3-0, not so much for us. What was it like afterwards? What were you family like? Cos obviously massive Evertonians missing out on, cos by honest, that season was like, we could win the FA Cup, we were this sad and looking at, you know, so what was it like afterwards? Um, afterwards was mad, so I've come out, all me mate to it in the Wiganind, half blue, half red, and then a few fiddles round the speeding, same with family, and I've come out to speed him, and I'm walking with me rucksack, just on me own, and I've looked round the corner, got to the graduate seat, and this is when everyone's gone, and all me mate to come running down the graduate seat about to head of them and jump on me. It was just like one of them days, he's just like, what's just happened there? And then, we've all just gone to the pub and just went to local, and everyone was there, me family had a big party, and then, there was a few me mates were still a bit, they were made up for me, but they were gutted. Yeah, of course. Cos it was that type of day, but me family and that, like me dad, me dad's a master of it only, and all me family is, and they were all just, they were all just made up for me, and obviously we were going to Wembley, so it's just like, surreal really, but it was mad at the time. And then, you got them doing it in the next round, as well you scored at Wembley in the semi-dinger against Milwell? Yeah, Milwell, yeah. Yeah, Milwell, yeah. No, I enjoyed that game, that was, we had most of the ball, and we dominated, like we were expected to win that game, so it was different to the Everton one, the Everton one, we weren't really expected to get anything, so it was like, the Milwell game was more, we were expected, we had the ball, there was a bit more pressure I'd say, there was a lot more pressure in fact, so when we got over that line, it was like, wow, and then obviously the final, you know, we were just, kind of going out and enjoying it, just going for it, everything. Yeah, it was a weird season for you, that wasn't it, cos obviously you had the FA Cup running, you were brilliant in that, but I remember you scoring, I'm sure it was against Spears, you scored an absolute quarter of a goal with your left foot, it was absolute streamer. Yeah, that was, that was, I think, it was absolute... We went down that season, so it was a strange one, but don't get me wrong, we wouldn't change it for the world, like, we would rather win the Cup than stay up, and Wagan Fans will still say that now, obviously it'd be different for Everton, cos we went down, it'd be terrible, wouldn't it, but at that time, obviously we were ghosted, we went down, it did take the shine off it a little bit, but now, not many people can say it and enjoy it, so, it's just appreciated, like... You've won a trophy, and then, of course it's Everton, means we haven't won a trophy for 25 years, have we so? It is one of them. You mentioned something before, I've got a ration about the tachel column, against the idea of a new castle. I've got a ration just very briefly, if I had it. Wasn't... You said you couldn't really tachel, and that challenge kind of proved it, didn't it? It wasn't the greatest tachel mate, was it? Oh no, that was my premise debut as well, so, it wasn't ideal, but, in the days, basically coming through, you used to get away with me, the very thinking back, I used to cut people in half every game, and the staff, like, they never encouraged it, but they liked the way it was aggressive, because I was a winger, it was quite rare, stood out sometimes, you know what I mean? Did they like the way I was like that? So I just carried on doing what I was doing when I got my chance, but I've gone into in the ball, I've not gone on when I do in type of thing, at the time I didn't think anything of it, which is mad looking back, I didn't think anything of it, and then at half time John Carver came up to me and started pushing me and I thought, why is he doing that? And then after the game, I was like, he was saying to me, you can't go on Twitter, you're getting death threats, and everything, and I was like, what? Cos it was live on Sky, and it was mad, and he was like, don't be putting anything on Twitter, spay off social media, disness, and I was like, and then I seen it back, and then everyone was talking about it, and then it was an international break, so it went on for two weeks on Sky Sports News constantly, and then they ended up changing the rule, because of it, but as you say, I never... No, not intentional, obviously, yeah. On Twitter, I've not meant to date him, but he only had a bruised leg in the end, he made out he broke his leg, which made me look 10 times worse. Yeah, yeah. But let's get a happier time, it wasn't a great tackle, let's leave it there, but obviously, you just mentioned it, then Man City at Wembley, one of the greatest sides, unbelievable football and ability, and I remember watching, watching the game, and you had an absolute storm in that to be fair, you should have scored though, I've got to say that, calm looking back, you had a good chance in the first half, but now, you were brilliant, and Joel was in goal, wasn't he? Wasn't Joel in goal? Yeah, Joel, yeah. Yeah, and he was brilliant that day, wasn't he? He kept us in it, yeah. Yeah, but, I mean, what a result, and do you think that the timing of the header by Watson was like perfect for me? Like perfect for, in the perfect way to win it? What I mean by that is, Addy scored after maybe half an hour, it might have been a little bit of a different game, but the timing of the goal was incredible, wasn't it? Yeah, no, it was perfect. I don't think, as the game went on, we obviously got a little bit more confident and started playing a little bit better, but I watched it back to the days that come on the Facebook liveings, the first time I've seen it, and I couldn't believe how well we kept the ball and had the ball in there half in there, but as I say, I don't remember thinking until the end we can do this, and then when they've gone to 10 men, I think after that we were like, maybe we can do it, but we weren't creating anything, we were playing alright, but we weren't creating anything, and then obviously the corner comes, and then the goal was, as you say, perfect timing, but I was just made up, didn't go to extra time, because we were all knackered, so when it went in, we knew we'd won, so it was just, that was just carnage with madness, unbelievable, I mean, unbelievable, wasn't it unbelievable shock? Yeah, yeah, it was definitely one of the biggest shocks and probably a big up history in it really. Oh, definitely, I mean, especially the money they spent. Yeah, well, exactly, exactly, and then obviously the better partners went off to Everton, then that summer, didn't they? We got the alligator deal went to Everton. What did, what kind of happened for you at that stage then, because you just won man of the mat, in an FA Cup final, you'd won the cup, you'd scored big goals on the way to the cup, you're doing well in the league. I'll be honest, we were having a tiadio the day, me impedent, we do like a live show every day and someone asked us a question of players you thought would end up at Everton, and your name come up, your name come back up, because at that time you were this fiery, quick winger, scored goals, you'd obviously done well against us. We then had the better partners. So you're, a lot of people at that time were thinking we'll death will go for Mcmanaman, definitely, because you know, partners is Adam. So from your perspective, was it ever close, was it, or did you ever hear about the possibility of coming to Everton? Obviously everyone was asking me in that time, there was death problems, but I just, just before, the last game this season, the day we went down against Arsenal, three days after the final, we were called up for the 21s and in the morning, and then in the night I snapped my ankle on the Tuesday night, so I was out for three months and then obviously that was the second last game this season, so I missed, I was in the summer and missed all the pre-season and obviously, this has gone to Everton in the summer, so we had ankleings, bad ankleings at the time, and then, you look at the wingers, Everton had it at the time, I really had my allies on that and he was flying at the time, where are you? I was obviously, hopefully it was going to, that was going to come up at the time, but there was no contact made or nothing to be honest, but they were always kind of, like a bumped into Graham Jones, not long after it, and he was kind of like, when I was flying afterwards, not long after, and he was saying, keep going, the way you're going and you never know, so that was always the aim, to be honest, and it never really, it never really materialised, obviously, and then, I've ended up moving to West Brom, it didn't kind of work out, and it's definitely, definitely helped me back. It's going to say, it's going to say, because you went to West Brom for just under five million quid, I think, didn't you? You're back in the Premier League and I think everyone's thinking, I remember seeing you play against Chelsea, and I was like, you're playing against Chelsea, it might have been. I'm sure it was on live, and you won a penalty, and I think you had an assist, and I think you're almost scored as well, and you had a great game, and it was like, we back at it and all that, so what kind of happened at West Brom, because I think, within 12 months, you'd gone out on loan again, didn't you? Yeah, that was tough, that was definitely the toughest time in my career, that, so after that Chelsea game, I was on the bench the next week, and I was flying, so I was just like, what have I got to do here? And then I had to fall out with the manager, and then it just spiralled, and then I've gone from, then I was on the bench this season, coming on, and even when I was doing well coming on, I wouldn't get a start, and then the next season, I've ended up, I'm out to squad, and then I've ended up going on loan to Chef Wedd, I went through that season, and I was stoked, I couldn't get out, so I wanted to either play there or where else, so I was just in a roast really, and I couldn't get out, so I couldn't see a way out of it type of thing, and then eventually, after the contract kind of expired near the end, it's what I needed in the end, because obviously I wasn't going to play under that manager, play a completely different style type of thing, so that was just the, and it was tough to come back from, that to be honest, because it was like three years you could hear, like hell back, it definitely affected me massively. Frost, that's grim. You went to Sunderland, and I've seen this in the documentary, so obviously Sunderland till I died, the other series has just finished now, and it's very much what people are talking about. What was that like to be a player while that was going on? I don't expect you to come out with revelations about Sunderland, we all seen it, so you don't really have to say much about it, but what was it like having a Netflix team following everything that happened, and did it, was it weird to get in the way? Did you? We had cameras on the floor in the physio room, like everywhere, like little tiny cameras and speakers in there, and like every morning, me and a few lads used to try and turn the speakers off and the cameras off, because it was just like constantly getting watched, like I hated it, so I wanted to be on that as less as I could, to be honest. We just wanted to concentrate on 40, you don't want to be constantly getting watched and everything you're doing, and like you can use what you want to the advantage, like when you watch a documentary and that's where I've watched both of them, it's a good watch, isn't it, for people, but when you're actually in it, if they don't like you or want to stick you up, then they can, which kind of happened, isn't it? It is weird, isn't it? It's weird because Sunderland are a big club and well supported, and they've obviously made mistakes, having been with certain things and being unlucky the way things have dropped with other things. I've seen in this latest one. I suppose as fans, what's very fascinating is things like transfer deadline days and stuff like that. That's obviously interesting and sane. I don't expect you to comment on this, but the Will Grig thing in the last one is just, to me, was just mad where you've got a manager going, don't pay more than that for him, you've got an owner thinking, we need to get up though, and he might beat up it. And we know that goes on in football sometimes. Owners, one player's more than managers do, don't they? But like you said, it's a fascinating watch, isn't it? No, it's a great watch to be fair, but when you're actually there every day, and I just felt panled all the time about what was getting said and what was happening type of thing, but I'm dying for them to get back in the Premier League, to be honest. Even when I watch it, I get a bit sad, thinking they've had some terrible luck, haven't they? I don't know, I just want them to do well. Did you enjoy your time? Not really, because obviously we're struggling, but I love living down there, and I love the people in that. That's a romance, yeah. Yeah, obviously we were struggling at the time, it didn't end up the best season, but I love living down there, and the people that would be there with me, so hopefully they get back to where they belong. It's a good club to be fair, and it's unbelievable, the best of being here. Brilliant, brilliant. You were saying back to Wigan, didn't you? You went back there in 2018, for a year. How did that come about? As a result of what we've seen in the documentary, were they just looking to get players off the wage bill and stuff, and try to cut costs? Yeah, they wanted players off the wage bill, they were allowing the wage bill and stuff, and I've never played in league one at the time, so obviously when Wigan came in, I got a great connection with the fan there, and I loved it there, so I was desperate to get back to be honest, but I wish it would have been a bit different if we stayed up, we could have built something and maybe start again, even though it would have been a bad season, so I had a two-year deal at the time, so hopefully it could have been a lot different, but when Wigan came up and she was in league one, they wanted people off the wage bill anyway. It was an old brainer, really. Obviously you've had 14 games in one goal for Wigan, and then moved to Luton. I mean, how did that come up, the Luton moved then, because obviously Graeme Jones is the manager for me, Everton, the assistant manager, and he'd worked them at Wigan as well, so did he just come in and want to take you to Luton? Yeah, so as soon as he got the job, basically he rang me and I met up with him, and then as soon as I spoke to him, he was bringing up games some years earlier, games at Sumblin, games for Wigan, and I was telling me what I did in this minute, and mad stuff like that, and I couldn't believe that, you remember it yourself, but you don't think everyone else does, you're in the wrong position here, you're playing in the wrong position, you're too deep about games from years ago, and I was impressed by that, so as soon as he said he wanted to get it done, that was it, barely. I was just faced on, so I've got a good relationship with Graeme Jones, definitely. You're doing well, obviously, till the season. Stopped 20 games, three goals, so most productive goals for a few years, though you settled at Llewman, doing quite well, so you're enjoying it there? Yeah, I'm enjoying it, yeah. I've not been playing every season, I've been coming on, which is a bit frustrating, because I end up saying until I've been an impact player now, which I want to prove that I'm not, but every time I've gone to the team and had a few games, I pick up a niggle or we don't get the result, so I just need to try and get back on the side and get it on going, but yeah, I'm enjoying it a lot more now, I feel a big part has got everything, it's got a few, so hopefully we can stay up now, but we don't know what's going to happen if we're going to be going back in or to season, I don't know what's going to happen. What do you think will happen, because obviously we can, and I know you're probably exactly the same as us, in terms of having got a clue, but me and Perth have done this a lot of, you're trying to second guess every decision, but with things like, there seems to be a real appetite for the Premier League to be played these nine games, obviously for monetary reasons, but then it affects everything, doesn't it, the championship, which is just what you're in, and things like that. I was just going to say, I don't see how they can not play, they can only play the Premier League when you've got relegating and promotion for them, the championship, unless they just said, no one's getting relegated, no one's getting promoted, or do you think it'll just all be behind closed doors, which will be a map one again? Yeah, we've kind of been told it's either going to be behind closed doors, probably or scrapped, so I don't know what's going to happen, but I think if it goes past the 30th of June, I just think it's going to get messy me, I just think it's going to affect next season and what's going to go on with contracts, like we've got a few players out of contracts, like the chart and I've got about loads of players out of contract, I think, and then I don't know about the Premier League clubs, but I don't know what's going to happen with that, and then I don't know is it going to be alright to start in the end of June, I'm not sure, so I think if it goes past the same point you'll have to say leave it, I think. Will you buy that because obviously next summer you've got the Euros, the Olympics, like the Copa America for obviously Premier League players and players around the Euro, but already the season is getting short and there's a winter break in it as well now, which was never around for the Premier League as well and so you write the longer it the longer this goes on then you start to wonder if it We're going to need a pre-season now as well aren't we so? We're going to need a free folks pre-season because everyone's been in their house for how many weeks so we're going to have to do all that for nine games so I don't know it's mad it would be better for looting because we're in the allegations so hopefully we'll stay off We're just on that column that if you do you think you'd have to do a pre-season then play the nine games and then maybe just have one or two weeks off and then back into the next one That's the kind of why it's looking at the moment isn't it like I think we're only going to get like two weeks and then to probably do transfers and stuff and then two weeks I think there's no way they can do nine games and then carry on the season the next season with no people out of contract and the day and over it's just being mad at the moment that looks like what's going to happen but as I say if it goes past the 50 of 15 then anything could happen couldn't it You're absolutely right Let's just quickly bring you back to evidence before I let you go on with your afternoon Obviously big ever throning you've said yourself you go the games when you can and all of that kind of stuff so what did you make of Carla Mantelotti's appointment then from a fan perspective Yeah I was made up I was bosun I didn't think at the time when I seen the links I just kind of thought out it's one of them but when he had to de-order it's a big news because that's what we need we need a statement, we need to attract big names, big players I think that's what tells us back a little bit so I think obviously this summer after all this has happened is massive for us we can get some big names and get a few big signings I think everything's set in place Yeah I mean there's a good core there you like to hear the charlison and I'm going to call that Loom is doing well now and we've got people like Mason Hullgate as well so there's a good core of players at the club and if you're right if we can add two, three, four top quality players then it could change the face of it couldn't it Definitely yes especially with the money now in the background and Marcel Brand he's doing everything properly now so as I say once he got the job he's the most excited I've been but he needs the players now as well he needs four or five good players you know what I mean so hopefully we can get that in the summer Fingers crossed, let me before I am going to let you go now mate honestly I promise you What was Roberto Martinis like as your manager to work for cos obviously from a fans perspective we had a great face season and then two very frustrating seasons of over playing but what was he like for you as a player to work for I loved him, I loved the way he played cos obviously it was all possession based in football and I was at my part of that team at the time so he helped me and obviously the first season we were flying maybe I think it was faith wasn't it and then after that it got a bit frustrating I feel like teams kind of just thrust us out and they were just getting behind the ball and counter-attacking us and that would be the only kind of criticism I don't think he kind of changed enough he kept playing he's got his beliefs and he believes that is his way of playing bit like Pep Guardioli he believed that if it's not working then you can do it better which some of the most of the managers had to change and he was stuck to his guns which sometimes it did work but as the time went on I loved it and especially I don't think it did I think kind of got thrust out that side even though it was a good side but no I was ghosted I was confident it was going to work out for the beta especially after the third season so no I was ghosted but it didn't work out to be fair We're here now with Carla and Cialotti one of the most successful managers ever so let's hope that this time we can actually move forward I know it's your birthday later this week as well so very happy birthday I hope I hope Luton stay up I hope you score a few more goals less tackling or more tackling just better tackles but no listen Carla thanks so much for taking time out I really appreciate it mate it's been brilliant chatting to you and if you're ever on this neck of the woods when this thing sorted itself out we'd love to have you come in the studio and have another chat No problem yeah I'll come in yeah No problem Super good to chat to you All right mate see you later All right thanks Calum take care mate Big thanks to Calum my man I'm in Luton town when you get a massive evertoning for taking time out of his day as he's still a big blue as he's just said so Make sure you give the video a thumbs up subscribe if you haven't and if you want more videos join us over on Patreon See you later