 One of the things we've been conscious of as we as we went through the discussions to plan this conference was how do we take this? abstract concept of the open internet the open web and and Discuss it and make it applicable to real humans living on the ground in communities This is a core mission of Knight Foundation. This is the core mission of the Center for Civic Media not coincidentally And so one silo where we thought we would try to tease that have that discussion is in the realm of science and and thinking about the way this open platform that we have and That increasingly tools like these that we all have in our pockets and and other tools that we can hack together increasingly cheaply That those can be used to and by ourselves by normal human beings often nerd the nerdier normal human beings To to observe to measure to map to understand what's going on in the environment around us And in the larger citizen science movement. So today we have four five minute talks coming up From some of the leading organizations in this citizen science space as well as one emerging one And then we'll have a brief conversation and we really want to again living the What's enabled by that have a conversation with you all so I'm going to introduce each of them Individually and we'll come up in a series. The first is Sean Bonner from safecast Hi, so I am going to try to jam a 45 minute talk into about 60 seconds because John makes it seem like this was all very well planned, but we only figured this out a few minutes ago So very quickly the overview of what safecast is as you guys know back in 2011 there was this huge earthquake in Japan which triggered a leak at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant and resulted in all sorts of Drama surrounding that mostly because there was no information available and people didn't know what was going on and it wasn't necessarily That there was information out there that people couldn't find it was just that there was nothing There were nobody was paying attention to this at all and so a handful of friends and I got together and thought that perhaps we could use our Communities and and skills and stuff and and help with this So we thought let's get a whole bunch of Geiger counters Give them out to people and then get those readings and then there'll at least be some sort of information But the problem with that right away was that there were no Geiger counters available anywhere They sold out right away so our second plan was get duct tape take tape a Geiger counter to a window in a car and Drive around with it taking pictures with our iPhones that were geotagged and then map those out So we were able to get a ton of data with one device Although that was the worst possible way to do it and so we came up with a new plan and we designed a whole platform hardware software and Data to collect this we've tried cars people Drive all around collect this data and then we started getting a much better picture of what was going on we actually Published the data immediately that showed that the evacuation areas were wrong They had to change where people were being moved to and from because of this and the data that we're collecting now Is all the way down to street level as opposed to huge averages, which was the little bit that was available before so We can get data all the way down to an individual GPS point anywhere in the world where we have devices and being open Giving these devices out to people all over the place for getting data from everywhere So we started this with zero absolutely no data available and It's been climbing pretty quickly to today right now We're just shy of 20 million data points in 53 countries around the world It's the largest data set of open radiation data that's available anywhere Everything we're doing again is open so all of our software is open source all the hardware Anybody can can go to the website get any of it They can build these devices themselves collect this data publish it back to us We have a kit that's available if people want to You know save the time of trying to source all the parts themselves. They can grab it from us There's over 300 of these out in the world collecting data right now We're building out a fixed sensor network, which is Setting up an early warning system, which was something that didn't exist at all before and hopefully that will help And it's not just in Japan. We're doing this all over the place again. We're also now looking at how the platform that we built for radiation might play out into other environmental Data sources that are not immediately apparent when you walk outside and look so we're doing air quality and possibly some weather and and other things All right, thanks Next up from SkyTruth David Manthos Morning, so I want to talk to you all this morning about citizen science satellites and SkyTruth things So this is an idea around the Internet of everything a concept that's been tossed around quite a lot And so if we can preserve the the DIY maker space ethos of the open Internet What can we do to connect? People and data and technology to solve some of the most pressing environmental issues of our time So SkyTruth is an environmental organization It's going to be applied to many other areas topics But we focus on using these technologies to look at the human impact on planet earth a Big picture view of impacts like mining the offshore oil drilling and oil spills that come with that Hydraulic fracturing what the impact in the landscape looks like so all of these issues It's a bird's eye view if you will if birds could fly 400 miles above the earth 17,000 miles an hour Satellites can do that and the data that is available from them is growing every day I just wanted to I'm not going to dwell on the technology too much But this is a image of where we are right now up the top of the screen This was taken Sunday And I downloaded it yesterday in this room for free not only could I not have done that 20 years ago back in the 1980s to Attain this image would have cost thousands of dollars about forty four hundred dollars for an image like this So not only are the sensors and the availability the information all these you can download millions of images from Landsat images from NASA You can download these for free the technology is also as recently evolving that People can access this it would have taken back in the 80s and the 90s Huge amounts of technical experience to even know what to do with an image and so sky truth for a while was Very much an expert Organization we were saying here's gas drilling out on public lands in Wyoming This is what fragmented landscape requires, but this is just us talking and telling the world what we see And that's very useful like when an oil or an oil well blows out in the Gulf of Mexico And you have millions of gallons spilling into the Gulf being able to say in the early days on satellite imagery That this is how big this bill is it can't possibly just be a thousand barrels of oil a day But again, this is all just us Telling other people what we see and really the dream for sky true thing was that any person could get this kind of information To know what's happening in their place that they care about so about a year later after BP spill We started with a very cobbled together system to take geospatial data At first it was just information from the Coast Guards National Response Center These are where oil and hazardous chemical spills are reported. It's a very clunky Text-only form that gets sent out to a bunch of emergency responders and we said well, okay We can take that data We can stick that point on a map in a Google Maps that people know what that looks like and we can put all the information Into an email and we can just send it to initially it was just to us that we wanted to know alright every day Tell me where I should look on satellite images for an oil slick and then we realized well We can turn this out to the public we can start sending this out So if you care about the refinery that's next door We'll send you the notifications when that refinery starts leaking 200 pounds of hydrogen cyanide every day and that has that led to Added more data into that system, but we still didn't have imagery yet We wanted people to see what's happening on the ground and so that led to this iteration We started with our first real true sky-truthing project back in August of last year Which is taking all the spatial data for oil wells gas wells in Pennsylvania that are gonna be hydraulically fractured And all of the aerial imagery back to 2005 putting those together and showing people one well at a time and just asking them Okay, we know that there's supposed to be a well drilled here. Do you see a well pad? Okay. Yes You see a well pad. Do you see huge waste lagoons that are holding hundreds of thousands of gallons of Fracking water You know those an issue for public health if you live next to one of those so we have had that several thousand people Participate in this project hundreds of thousands of image analysis tasks We have to have a lot of people look at the same image so that they don't Give us a wrong answer So we average out and take the correct answers and this gives us the ability to look at the bigger picture things and In Pennsylvania this data is going to a public health study So are those waste ponds a source of air contamination working in Johns Hopkins on that and Hopefully we can expand this to other broader issues So if you care about an issue like oil pollution, we can show you a satellite image of Places and get you to know what an oil slick looks like or do you care about a place like the Theodore Roosevelt National Park? We'll tell you all the imagery and all the data that we have about that so that people can see What's happening in the world and that they have a part in the science of understanding it. Thanks Thank you, David. Our next presenter is Jeff Warren from the public laboratory of science Actually, don't have slides, but I have some nice pictures that are gonna go by as I talk This is the front page of the public lab website public lab.org. You should check it out I guess when trying to explain what public lab is sometimes I kind of get I stumble on it because there's lots of different sides of it So I've been sort of trying to explain it in the sense of comparing it to other things like We're sort of like Wikipedia crossed with the Humber computer club Crossed with Greenpeace a little bit, but the problem with that I think is that each of those leads to a different kind of misunderstanding like people initially think oh Greenpeace So you're about conservation. I mean I really like whales but but But we're organization that's sort of based in environmental justice, which is more about human health than it is about whale health So so I think that's one misunderstanding people assume that we're creating environmental Sensors to go out and measure the environment and see how the environment is doing but actually it's more about the risks to yourself and your family Your health that that were that we're concerned about so public lab. Who are we it's we're a community of about four to five thousand people around the world who are collaborating to develop inexpensive environmental modern techniques That's sort of the Wikipedia side of it like people upload plans design Ideas they critique each other's work. They collaborate across continents to develop Cheap sensors and while the cheap sensors are sort of the the leverage right that without access to Scientific monitoring equipment. You can't really you know challenge the status quo in terms of people's understanding of pollution issues I think the second misunderstanding people make is sort of the Humber computer club side of things that that we're primarily a group that is developing Technologies and that that's that the tools the kits those are those are the center of public lab and actually I would say that More than a community that is just posting a bunch of gadgets online and sharing them The thing that we as a community are most trying to construct is Actually communities of expertise and communities of practice themselves So the technologies will come and go right you're gonna you're gonna a lot of it We're you know we're basing on Say to photograph an oil spill or to measure To measure contaminate we're using things like digital cameras are using webcams are using bits and pieces that we find those things are gonna change We're riding a lot of economies of scale using products you buy in the store But the thing that we're trying to build is a community which is able to innovate Solutions to their immediate problems people who can rely on each other who have a sense of expertise of knowledge of the risks that they face around their home and their neighborhood, so I think that Increasingly I'm trying not to talk about the gadgets although they're fun I'm trying to talk more and more as I explained public lab about the people Who through the connections they build in the the the problems they tackle are actually the thing that we're creating a public lab So the third thing I think I guess this is sort of on the Wikipedia side of thing is Are we a citizen science organization and I think I guess we are but I think that the word citizen science or the term tends to it tends to emphasize this sense of All the data out there being gathered into us towards a single point it neglects the question Who is we like who is who is we that that are gathering this all and a lot of times the answer is it's scientists So or or like sorry I got distracted because I made a Chrome extension This is you should download it it replaces all instances of the word scientist on the entire internet with scientists with quotation marks, so Go get it But but what I'm what I'm talking about here is that that that scientists or government or industry They're sort of like at the center of their respective networks. They're at the top of the pyramid, you know So citizen science often refers to collecting vast amounts of data and pooling it and then analyzing it But who is actually analyzing it? It's it's we're talking about big data here, right, and I think that what the public lab approach doesn't necessarily Presume that we're that we like the staff of public lab or whatever are going to collect it all and then sort of make Decisions based on it, and I think that the way that this relates to a lot of the conversations. We've heard today and yesterday in terms of big data in terms of smart cities is When you do that when you have this sort of pyramidal Network diagram and you collect all the data to one point and then you have certain sort of preferred Experts who get to sift through that data, and I'm not just talking about, you know, Facebook or Google I'm talking also about, you know governments and also just just scientists just experts people who have the Knowledge and wherewithal and resources to do that analysis and perhaps aren't thinking in the sense of like a just like a decentralized discursive public They get to make decisions on behalf of everyone else they get to make decisions for them because they they have an asymmetrically large amount of data that they're They're not sharing the decision-making process and as you know as we in our sort of society today Increasingly depend on science and technology to justify decisions and to sort of motivate good decision-making That's a real problem because if people aren't involved in the analysis of the data I'm not just talking about the collection like going out and banning birds or taking water samplers or whatever And that's great, but actually looking at the trends understanding them and and Inferring things from them advocating for different things based on the data Participating in that whole data life cycle past the collection point all the way to where you say okay Now we've understood the issue now Let's as a society decide to do something about it and decide to do this about it and reaching consensus or or at least reaching disagreements Those are the parts that I think are missing from the this idea of smart cities and and and from the sort of broader idea of big data So I think what what public lab is trying to do is to get people involved in all those different parts of the data life cycle So it's not just about collecting data and handing it to someone who knows what to do with it It's not just about getting enough data to the right people who can make the decisions for you It's actually about data and participation in its production its analysis And the advocacy that comes after it that's something that everyone has a responsibility to be part of in in our democracy So I guess that's sort of the big picture. That's that's a lot of stuff to tackle But but I think that if you only do the beginning or you only do the end you're gonna miss out on What is really a participatory form of government? So anyway, that's sort of public lab in a kind of large nutshell. Thank you Next up is the Center for Civic Media's very own Catherine Dignasio Hi everyone Catherine Dignasio, it's Center for Civic Media. I just want to say what an honor it is to share the stage with a couple of these Much projects that are much further along on their trajectory. I want to talk to you today about the open water project So we are in the very early stages of development and we're about making water monitoring tools Software data and education lower cost more accessible and more public So this is not just my project. There are a lot of really amazing people working on this project We're being incubated by public lab and we're developed within the public lab community and ecosystem We have a number of partners on the project that include academics and hydrologists at Plymouth State And down to environmental advocacy organizations like the Mystic River Watershed Association And then I just want to recognize there's a bunch of people in the audience today that are working on this project. So Don Blair is there Adrienne Debigar is there and Heather Craig is There and so all of these people can also talk to you about this project and where we are So water monitoring who cares about it, right? So there are a lot of people who care about water monitoring These are the people that we're developing with and that we're developing for And so just to mention a couple of those science and environmental journalists Watershed managers and municipal governments hydrologists anyone working on climate science and rising sea levels Farmers USGS and then down to individuals and communities that are affected by water events such as Pollutions combines to our outflows and things like this So our project, you know, we're in the early stages and what we've really coalesced around Sort of like Sean was mentioning is just the set of open values. So we have five opens that we talk about So it's open hardware open software open data open community and open education So it turns out that water monitoring water quality is really complex Ideally you'd have a sensor that would just be like good or bad, but it's way more complex than that There's various aspects of a water system that you need to keep in balance like dissolved oxygen and nitrogen You may want to be measuring for a specific pollutant in the system like arsenic or mercury And then one of the most complicated things about water, of course, is that it's always changing it changes over time It's a system. It's a complex system So rather than making a separate test for every possible thing that you might want to test your water system for Our approach has been to model our hardware and our instrument after the idea of a thermometer So the thermometer takes your temperature and you're the thermometer tells you you have a fever and that there's something going on But the thermometer doesn't diagnose you doesn't say like oh you have the flu or you have a virus or something like that Researchers like Mark Green have been demonstrating recently how conductivity actually can serve this purpose So conductivity in relationship to other measurements like temperature and depth Can show us this correlative relationship with pollutants in the system and so far He's been looking at arsenic and chloride and is looking at other pollutants as well And so this is actually pretty exciting because what it means is that conductivity can be an indicator for something's wrong Just the same way that our body temperature is an indication that something is wrong in the body So there are water logging technologies out there being widely used by researchers So these measure water data over time These are around fifteen hundred dollars for measuring which is actually not that bad But the fact is that one in isolation doesn't really tell you that much about a water system So you need to deploy multiple things of these which means that the cost goes up So here's our initial stab at a water monitoring system We call it the riffle and I think Don is gonna hold it up and maybe even like pass it around People can take a look at it and so the the riffle monitors Conductivity temperature and depth basically the same thing that those commercial water loggers are measuring for about a tenth of the price Is what we're looking at right now. So it's comprised of these a thermistor and an audio cable which is actually being used to measure conductivity sticking out of the top and then Custom circuit board, but which is based around the Arduino and then three double-a batteries which all fit in Either a typical water bottle or we're exploring other kinds of enclosures for them right now as well So here's you know, there's a bunch of ways you could potentially use this So if you're interested in monitoring downstream pollution from a particular point like a farmer factory You could deploy a pair of these and be testing you sort of what are the changes in these measurements You could be monitoring in a private well So you put a single one in hopefully in conjunction with other people in your area that are also monitoring that or if you wanted to Measure an entire system you could deploy a bunch of these to get a very high spatial and temporal resolution of data And so one of the other challenges in this space is Open software and open data. So a lot of the software systems are proprietary the data formats are also proprietary So we've been working with Jeff Walker Who's a postdoc out of Tufts to think about a very simple software platform where people using the riffle could upload their data and share their Data across a wide network and also discuss it and visualize it So the open community part of this we are being incubated through public lab And they've been really awesome supporters of this project And so the great thing about working in an open community format is just this possibility for rapid distributed innovation So these are just two examples of you know, how things have worked so far So like the top one is sort of how our label design has evolved, you know One person does one thing another person puts up another thing and so on and so forth And then the bottom slide here is sort of our iterative process for developing You know arriving at that insight around measuring conductivity with an audio cable You basically need two metal points and you need to be measuring the voltage drop between those across the water And so we needed a stability of sort of points there So we first started with this 3d printed cap with wires We moved to a model with two screws and then someone had this great invention of the audio cable Which really simplified things so in any case These are our pilot sites and partners that we're hoping to deploy with and work with on the project And then finally our model of open education is something that we're currently seeking funding for we want to Pilot an engagement model where we create civic nodes around environmental monitoring at the watershed level So the civic nodes are based on this idea of creating the time and space To bring together people who already care and are invested in the idea of water quality And then who can help translate that into data collection advocacy and storytelling to broader public And so we'd love to talk with more of you about how we can engage Journalists and journalism students in this kind of thing and anyone else who's interested just join our mailing list on the public website So, thanks very much So we're gonna slowly shift the terrain here so we can actually have a conversation While oh, I just locked my mic. I'll fix my mic So what we want to do. Oh, look at that. Thank you is I'll sit down first I'm really taken by Jeff's point around the inverted commas for our for our European friends the inverted common scientist So where I want to start as folks come back on up Everyone up Another round of applause for our presenters, please So I really I do want in Ethan is playing the role of Phil Donahue slash Oprah today. So please and Get your questions ready I was taken with the inverted commas scientists and in the applause that got And it raises for me the question. How do you each with your projects think about? relate to and work with existing institutions whether it's quote-unquote real scientists or Other or journalists or just other types of institutions that are already out in in the field doing similar projects And how do you how do you bridge that relationship? Well, first I wanted to say I like scientists my parents are scientists I don't have against them really I just it's supposed it was supposed to as you read You know articles online just sort of provoke you to think about who are these experts and What gives them the expertise to be making these statements about things that you care about or that affect you so it's not supposed to be too mean to them actually but but To that point actually a lot of people in the public law network are formal scientists at formal institutions and have labs and Sometimes they don't even say so for a long time And then and then you know you're in this long months long conversation with them and then they sort of mention Oh, I could just take this to my lab at NASA Where I work and you're like you could have done that this whole time really But I think that they're an integral part of this I think that there's no way to make progress on environmental justice You know research and and and identifying pollutants without alliances and without building bridges with existing institutions And I think that in many cases Those experts are extremely eager to work directly with the public and on things that have an immediate import to you know Health and and you know the neighborhoods they live in and so forth. I Think with what we're doing is we're very conscious of the expert Analysis behind everything and we're kind of shaping our projects around where we know there's a need So example, for example, Johns Hopkins came to us They wanted to know where certain sources of air contamination might be and so we built a tool around that and quite frankly At this point it's taken more effort to build the public engagement side of things Then it simply would have been to sit and intern down at a computer and trace out all those wastewater ponds but the idea is that by engaging people in that and I mean taking care of some things like redundancy We have ten different people look at the same image and then we go back and quality control it to make sure that what we're providing is in Fact something usable by real scientists, but we're conscious of that from what we want people to see what we want to point them towards Yeah, like Jeff Because of the open aspect of safecast We have a lot of different people jumping in from different places and a bunch of those people actually get paid to do this in the real world so You know We have we have scientists contributing to stuff. We feel like some of what we're doing is science but more than that we actually Solicit as much as possible critique on our work to make sure that it actually holds up to Any kind of critique in that that it's useful because we're asking people to spend their time and effort to go out and Collect this data so that it can be used for other things And if and if it can't be used for those things and it's a waste of everybody's time So if the data doesn't hold up Then there's really no point in what we're doing. So we're very we're very interested in making sure that our stuff fits in that And for us also building off what you guys are saying I think we're we have Sort of the real scientists or whatever working with us as co-creators and collaborators on this project We're using their research in the development of the hardware We're using the software knowledge that has come out of their extensive experience doing water quality monitoring We're also using that that knowledge from Patrick Herron, for example, who does water quality monitoring in the mystic, which is an an environmental advocacy organization And so I see it more around In a sense what our role might be is to stage encounters between the people that have expertise but who might be seeking a Greater component of how do you like leverage that knowledge and get it out into the public and then bringing together people who? Have already an interest in water and water quality monitoring for specific sort of community-based reasons It's like how do you stage encounters and create space and time for those audiences to come together and share that knowledge And how do you do that? I mean, what I don't know we haven't done it yet I mean, I think that's that's sort of what I was showing at the end is that The model that we want to pilot is basically creating a program that would be based at the watershed level That would bring together what we're calling these civic nodes, which would include sort of scientists educators the Environmental advocacy groups, I mean not all of them at the same time But like sort of these representatives of each one at that particular watershed level and then journalists as well and thinking about Each of those groups has then this broader audience that they communicate back to to which their Opinion means something so like the academics communicate back to an academic community And that has a huge import for for how knowledge gets gets gets pushed forward But journalists communicate to the public that has also a huge Value and bringing public attention to something and so that's that's the thing that we want to pilot But it's definitely not figured out How do you guys specifically deal with relate with work with a lie with journalists? There's actually a discussion about a month ago on one of the public lab lists about you know the role of inexpensive sensors and DIY technologies for environmental Research in journalism and it was sort of a split crowd a lot of people You know coming from the journalism space a lot of people from the sort of the tech area that I've Activism side of things people saying well, you know Do journalists have the time and resources to do long-form investigative work in the environmental space and to sort of Tool up and learn these techniques and and so forth and a lot of people were saying that you know That's the that's what they have to do to to you know in modern journalism Some people saying there's no way Anyone's gonna have the time or money to pursue those things or at least the time if the tools are cheap But I think that there's a lot of opportunities for partnerships there where journalists can Get in contact with and begin collaborating with citizen groups Who are living in the areas that are affected that are doing monitoring on their own and can you know? Collaborate share data and they don't necessarily have to learn how to build a sensor or use it or whatever They should think of Local folks as as a resource as as a pool of expertise as people who really deeply understand a problem and are deeply invested in it And and I think that that's that's where the real magic is gonna happen You should totally add journalist to Chrome thing because that that's that plays into this a lot You know, I mean given given the open piece again Everything's available for for people so they're a little bit of how much people are interested in being a part of it and so we see with safecast everything from Journalists who write full stories about what we're doing without ever speaking to anybody and just sort of pulling pulling little bits and pieces out of other Stories that they found around or you know copying one line off our website or something to people who fly to where we're at or come visit Our volunteers that that go out in the field with us that collect data that get one of our own devices that see how it works Themselves and everything in between there So I think that by making everything available There's there's a huge wealth of information for journalists to take that and write very compelling pieces and and pass that information on and so There's a little bit a little bit of that is more in the hands of the journalists whether they actually are gonna move on that or or not I want to pick on I've been looking peering out there in the light to see if Jeremy Gilbert from National Geographic is there I Wondered Jeremy if as even maybe slowly wakes it makes his way back to you with the mic or maybe you can come towards this way So Jeremy works at National Geographic, which has done a little bit around science and a little bit around journalism has a 130 year legacy in the space I'm curious to get your reactions with your your Nat Geo Pith helmet on only a hundred and twenty six years So not that old no I mean I think the one thing that's really interesting that we have spent a lot of time thinking about is the difference Not not in who's a scientist because I love the idea that everyone is potentially a scientist and everyone is collecting data And I think you've already touched a little bit on the analysis part of it But one of the things that's really interesting I think for me about the frame of National Geographic is that we're interested in funding science We're interested in telling great stories and we're also interested in education And I guess the question I would pose to the panel particularly is about the educational component Which is one of the things we've run into is that data collection is different than analysis But it's also different than asking the questions that each of you have asked that led to the projects where you're collecting that data I was wondering what you have been able to do to start people thinking about asking Not questions of a scientist but scientific questions questions that can be proven proven with your kind of data Well, I think that getting at the sort of an environmental justice Origins of the the work that we're doing and the fact that we work with a lot of environmental justice groups is Many people actually start with the the question. They don't they're looking for education necessarily and education is sort of almost a byproduct because you know Like folks in in the Gulf Coast during the BP spill were like well is this are these Tar balls or are they is this organic material of some sort? What's going on here is my family safe? They have very pressing questions and in some cases You know They just want an answer. They don't want to have to fiddle with some device or something right? but but some people I think have the a little bit more You know time resources and they can they can step back and say if everyone had easy ways to to Determine these things to identify contaminants to you know check on these things then then we'd be in a better position in the first place So so I guess that's that's part of it. I Think I would add that our projects and the idea of skytruth thing of putting all of this imagery and data out in front of people is Maybe in a way a subliminal education that we want to offer an opportunity for people to take part in the scientific project You know some something that's in take action That's more than just adding your name to a petition but as they're going through hundreds of images of Wellpads in state forest land and on people's farms right next to houses that eventually sinks in that you start to see This is all of the impact that already exists and this is all of the area that could potentially be impacted in the future so I think having people go through that process and and learning about what Things to look for in an image is sort of a subliminal education Even if they're just coming as a I want to take action in some sort of area Well, you know with with radiation It's a very political topic and there's lots of hot discussion surrounding it from all different sides and so We try to we try to further that conversation as much as possible without without taking a definitive stand on it one way or another So we have mailing lists and blog posts and things where we Point to people who are doing analysis and we provide the data for people who are doing analysis and try to create a forum Where these discussions can come from and where people can can look at the data and try to gather something useful and interesting from it Without, you know keeping the data to ourselves and saying oh, here's what it means Yeah, and I just want to say that I think that that question is really important and I think it points at a Opportunity in this space to think more programmatically About how engagement happens and how education happens and what are the ways that people come into that? I mean a lot of times we think like It's like it's very empowering the discourse of citizen science and citizen journalism are very empowering to think that like we could all do This but then actually getting people to that point, especially if people aren't prepared to like to vote their lives to it Is I just think that's a whole realm of sort of social design that we can Think together about and that's what I'm hoping can start to emerge from all of us working together I guess on this are our new forms of engagement models where we think Really concretely about like then we will create this opportunity and these couple stakeholders will be at the table And then this thing will happen from there where it's it's not just about like we put it out there But we think really concretely about how we get to this next steps I think we have time for one more question and if there's not one I want to riff off Something Catherine and I were talking about earlier and also your point right there about how we engage with other audiences Simultaneous to this conference. There's a conference taking place right now called next library Where they're talking about the future of libraries and how to reinvent and rethink libraries as civic institutions and as you heard yesterday We I think Knight Foundation It sees libraries as very much as a key institution for connecting with humans where they live in their neighborhoods And I wonder as you think about other institutions of the libraries or other civically based Institutions where you're most excited where you see the greatest potential whether it's schools or libraries or if there are other Yes, I'll jump in that real quick You know one of one of the things that was core to safe cast founding was was the hacker space culture I run a hacker space in Los Angeles. We were very closely with the hacker space in Tokyo So all these hacker spaces working together is is how safe cast exists So it wouldn't it wouldn't without that network. And so I've been very excited to see sort of the hacker space maker space influx into Libraries in Los Angeles one of the main libraries in Koreatown is going to be Hosting the LA maker space on their whole second floor I know there's a lot of other library systems around the country that are working closely and putting maker spaces and hacker spaces and fab labs and things Actually into their spaces. And so I think that giving that information excuse me and Helping the community sort of get more involved in that sort of hands-on making piece of it I'm really excited about where that's going to head and Environmental or student groups, especially environmental student groups on campuses that has been a great opportunity for us We've really seen engagement. We got some people just coming to the website organically to look through these tools we're providing but really sitting people down at a In a room ordering a bunch of pizza and just saying let's spend a couple hours and and go through a couple thousand images and Processing that that has really gotten people sitting around in one place talking about an issue even if it's not quite so creative as the hacker space idea It's engaged a group of people in an event Jeff I know with you guys that you guys have used like public market places as places to engage people where they are Yeah, I mean I think well one thing that I guess we do a lot as we organize in-person events all over the world and And by we I mean like we have a fairly large organizers network of people who are Interested not only in the monitoring and so forth, but in actually you know creating groups of people cultivating, you know sort of local Chapters of public lab to tackle specific problems and so the the sort of local meetup has been Backbone of that of that sort of growth people get together. They pitched each other sort of updates on products They've been working on they ask for help on things People exchange tips. They actually bring devices and monitoring devices or they ask about data They brought and there's a real sort of important aspect to in-person meetings and the sort of bonds that you create in the connections you create there we also have periodic regional and international events we have That we call the barn raisings After the Amish barn raising idea of like coming together to make something and typically those are done at sites where there is an environmental justice concern The the one that we have every year is South of New Orleans in a place called coca tree and it's in a place where you know as we're sort of enjoying ourselves After the conference day is over and people have made a bunch of things You can sit there and actually see a refinery flare, you know a mile down the road You can see a lot of the hardware from the oil and gas operations in the area out in the in the wetlands as you're canoeing around there and I think that that sort of immediacy of the issues that people face Inspires and sort of keeps people focused on those sorts of problems as opposed to just making stuff But it's sort of a hybrid of this Catherine what's the next place that you're excited about engaging people? We were so excited about the library at the Chicago library's news challenge winner, so we've been talking a lot about that actually I Think that's a great way to end Thank you. Please give a round of applause for our for our presenters here today