 kwa hoi la Hotemi. Y u ja mahi kwa u tu naumani? U k先il ya nwa hotemi. Kayye pa nizu ko hotemi namawe hami nika Una ewu mahi kwa mizu mahi yu ga mizu kwa ilu kama ya mahi kwa mizu mahi kwa mahi kwa mizu mahi kwa mizu mahi kwa mizu mahi kwa mizu mahi nakawe kubura maажisa kwa maafia, maafia kwa maafia kwa maafia kwa maafia kwa maafia kwa maafia kwa maafia kwa maafia kwa maafia kwa maafia kwa maafia kwa maafia kwa maafia kwa maafia kwa maafia kwa maafia kwa maafia kwa maafia. Kirusa Naiv. Thank you so much Ra. I am really happy to be here. I hope you are well. I am very well. You looking good, feeling nice. Thank you. You are also looking very good to yourself. We want to start first of all by letting us know who you are. As Yve. Okay. Yeah. Uh, who am I? I always, that's a question I get asked, I think, everywhere. Yeah. But I always never like forgetting that first I'm a child of God. Amen. Yes. Amen. Amen. The aid to the man to that. Yeah. Yes. So in terms of roles, I play very different roles. But I'm in the HR, I'm in the HR space whereby I serve organizations to bring the best out of their stuff. Yeah. I've worked with different organizations. I've worked in the NGO sector. I've also worked in running non-renewable. And I've been, I mean, I've served at the SISUT level in different organizations. Yeah. And yeah, I'm also passionate about mental health and especially mental health for executives because at the top level, yeah, you require a lot of mental work. The most roles in the SISUT is basically about thinking. So it requires the involvement of your mental health. And what is interesting is, as a HR practitioner, you're managing to talk about this because you've seen how people behave in the office. Exactly. As a HR practitioner. Exactly. I've seen it and even not, and also just behind the aspect of mental health having been part of because I've led in terms of coming up with various programs of mental health in different organizations. And I've also been, also almost gotten to a point whereby I can't take it anymore in terms of mental health and people actually never know. And especially when you're at the top level of the cadre, you are supposed to be okay. You know, you're not supposed to show vulnerability maybe because of the culture we are coming into. We are into. But however when you look at it and you break it down, we actually are the people that need to take care of our mental health the most here. Yes. And how can people find you on social media if someone wants to engage with you? Yes. Is there a resource that they can be able to use? Yes. They can reach out in infinite people and culture solutions and access for that. I'm also on LinkedIn. If Mutio. I'm also on Instagram. But mostly we really want to reach me out. The best place to get me is on LinkedIn. LinkedIn. Yes. And of course engage with her. Of course we value her feedback layer as I know where you're watching us from. So ask those questions in regards to mental health. Now Eve. Yes. We are saying sisu. Yes. Very big time for some. And these are youth station. What the hell are we talking about here? So who is a sisu before we talk about their mental health? So sisu are basically the people who run organizations. They are at the top level, top level of management. So they are work, they are tasked with the vision and the vision of organization. And even their own organization. So that's the sisu. We talk about executive directors. We talk about chief. Chief. If you have any... CEOs. Yes, CEOs. The chief executive officers. The COO's. Yes, the COO's. And others maybe even general managers managing director. So just in a simple term sisu is basically the top cadre of organizations. Your work is to think and even others execute. So you help organization create value through the people. Now this value when it comes to the mental health of such kind of a person. Absolutely. Because they are at the top. Absolutely. And they say that actually and I've seen it is that you have to set tone at the top. If you don't get it right on the top, then the entire organization. Like you are actually doing, you are not doing anything much. So you have to start at the top. And when you start at the top, then everything else will fall into place. Yes. Remember we are talking about the sisu, the excom. Yes. They are the ones who have been tasked by shareholders to create value. They are the ones who have been tasked by organizations to develop organization strategy. And then those strategies have to be executed through other people. If they are not able to handle that pressure, then it translates into stress. And that affects their mental health. Now let's talk about the different examples here. Because I am looking at the pressure being given to these people. Yes. Because now they are responsible and they are going to be accountable for the company. Absolutely. And there is a pressure that comes to that. Because now the success of the company depends on you. Absolutely. How do you handle, how should such kind of a person handle that kind of a pressure and those expectations given on them? Yes. That's a very good question Ram. First, you can't run away from pressure when you are on the top level management. That is a must. So there is not something you can avoid. You can't say it's too much pressure. Because that's why they say it gets lonely at the top. But our narrative as IPCL and especially mental health executive it doesn't have to be lonely at the top. So pressure will be there. Don't quit because of pressure. You can't quit. People are looking up to you. And you also have your own objectives to serve in terms of organizations. So pressure will never run away from it. And even knew exactly where you are working. You have pressure to deliver. But if you are not able to manage that pressure then that means that it now translates into stress. So there are various ways to actually manage that. You have to be, do you center in the morning what are the current rituals that you have as an individual before you actually go meet the world? How have you managed to ensure that you have rituals that really make you to be more self-aware of how you're handling emotions? You know that kind of thing. And then also, in terms of also mental health the health of executive as I had mentioned prior is when we were having, before we started this show is that just feeling that actually there is a gap in terms of the mental health for executives. There is a space we've actually joined with various experts. But we have a psychiatrist who's leading this program. We have psychologists and we understand the exclusivity that is required at the SISU level. So when you're not able to manage that pressure then it turns into stress. That's why you hear someone has suffered a mental breakdown. You'll hear someone is like burnout fatigued or you have a bit of anxiety and all that kind of thing. But now because before we even go further in let's put up disclaimer here. When you talk about mental health we're not saying that this SISU is weak. Are we saying that they are now incapable of delivery? Not at all actually. No, no, no, that's actually in fact it's when they are able to take care of their mental health in a proactive approach and actually show that it's okay not to be okay. I mean the aspect, the message they send to the rest of even the employees in organization is that wow, I mean he was through it and he's actually been able to conquer. So it's actually... Yes, I'm a fan believer of vulnerability is actually a sign of courage and is a sign of leadership. I mean when I actually say that I almost suffered a mental breakdown that I had to take myself to the hospital and see a doctor. So that it gets to a point that you really need help because there is a perception about the SISU that they are supermen, they are superwomen. I mean why should someone actually I mean to have a state that they are actually they need to see a therapist or that and yet they are earning all this money and I mean there's really a stereotype around it and as leaders we actually have to come out and show you know what, it's okay not to be okay. Now there is that part of where you said that there are different ways of handling pressure. Yes. Let's give these different ways because now we're talking about mental health. Yes, for executives because I'm not an expert. Yes, for executives. Yes. Even things that maybe an executive can do that can help them when it comes to managing that pressure in the office and the pressure to deliver. Absolutely. I think that's true. As I had mentioned again there are various practices we actually recommend. Yes. So one of the things is you have to have what I call a sense of solitude whereby you have to have time for you fast. Like do you run, do you have some sort of exercises and the others even we recommend because we recommend that you do a lot of exercises and then the other thing as leaders in organization you have to create a space whereby these programs can actually be implemented because it starts with you and how can people access these programs. Now you're talking about programs. What is the role of HR when it comes to dealing with the stress coming to our C-suits because now you are the people that everyone will blame. The HR is giving us pressure. HR, HR, HR. And the C-suits blame you, don't they blame you? Yes and no. It also depends on so many things. And when I look at about the HR I mean I actually say people are your greatest assets in organizations and it also comes from a place of being a HR whereby you create that avenue whereby you're a problem solver and you want to ensure that your staff at the highest productive level. And I mean HR cannot do this by themselves. I mean HR are business partners so meaning they have to partner with other leaders in the organization. It's not, you know you can't HR cannot work in a silo that's what I'm trying to say. So it's up to HR to collaborate with the leaders in organization to come up with because everyone is a HR by their own right actually in organization and that's because you're working through people you're delivering results through other people. So the fact that you also have people that you're overseeing, that's already make you a HR. I mean that's where people's management in organization is very, very crucial for leaders. So it's actually creating that avenue for with leaders to have those programs implemented. You have a peer education program whereby people can actually sit down here. How, what is your narrative or what is your philosophy regarding mental health and especially where we have in our current laws and especially the ILO and also the Employment Act. It's not very clear on mental health. It's just about sick days is that when you're sick for seven days it's your days are actually deducted concurrently like so it's not very clear in mental health. In organization now HR comes in and takes a proactive approach do you have like a counselor or have you partner with various hospitals that offer these. I mean creating that avenue to make people feel safe that you know it's okay not to be okay and it starts with the leader. Now do we have those recommendations that you like to give to HR that can help organizations in managing the mental health of our sisi? Yeah absolutely and one of the things is just first of all create start talking about it. Let's not stigmatize it and one of the things we had when one of our co-objectives was actually create that awareness it took you not to be okay. That enabling environment. So that we start first of all stop demonizing it in the first place because I'll tell you out of ten executives that I know three or four have suffered a mental breakdown. Yes, I'll tell you that for a fact and that is actually when we did our first virtual event we were able to see even the aspect of the people who registered for that event is like people really give feedback and I'm like we actually saw that this actually a big up on this aspect. So back to your question HR need to create that environment to start talking about it and they need to have support from their vision bearers and these are the CEOs and the entire sisu and the entire management and then also and I remember this one organization I worked with and I remember having a conversation with my boss and I actually mentioned to him that if anyone because we had the minimum we had the minimum sikof for when for instance you are on a sikof but if at mental health it had a very grey area in terms of that and I had this conversation with the CEO and I told him there is no way we are going to deduct anybody any money even if they are surpassing their sikof days. It doesn't matter what the policy says because just because it's legal doesn't make it ethical. But this is something that all organizations need to review. Yeah they need to review they really need to sit down and see because mental health is already now it's no longer a silent pandemic it's actually it's very loud people and that's where you hear even the suicides are not reported and all what is happening in terms of the mental health space. So actually they need to come out and be proactive. They need to collaborate with experts, psychology, psychiatrists. Yeah in a manner that actually people can actually feel like you know what my company really cares about my mental health and is that aspect and one philosophy will be over cover is that compassionate leadership starts by showing that people you care and it's based on the programs that you actually put across. Talk about policies creating awareness to the group and you'll realize in an organization when we actually start talking about that people will actually start coming out and you'll actually look that that is actually affecting other variables in organization. At the end of the day the success rate of the organization increases. Absolutely you look at your revenue you'll start increasing. You look at some of the sick of have actually dropped down you know you just look at those matrices in organization when you look at even because presentism will actually decrease and presentism it means that people are in organization they are actually they are present but they are mentally not there. But when you start handling those things that actually that feel like they are very simple but they are not simple they have a very big impact in organization. Let's talk about this aspect of us expecting our citizens to be bulletproof. We expect them to you know what anything you throw up them they can handle. They can handle. They are the boss they are the bosses. What actually I think we always need to remember they are also human they are also human. They are really also very human. And when they go to work in the morning and they and they shut the door behind them and they sit behind that chair the only thing they think about isn't just that that office. Absolutely they have families they have yeah they have families they also have their own selves to think about yeah so and that's why when they actually have that space actually to take care of their mental health fasts they'll be able to handle their organizations also in that aspect and that I mean and also it also I think I don't know whether it's a culture thing in the African society or it's just something that is all over because there's one article I was reading some time back and saying that executives have turned into zombies because they are not sleeping one thing they open in the morning they are either on a cigarette or coffee to make them they really have forgotten to take care about themselves and actually there is this notion that self neglect is equals to success that's the wrong success you neglect the things you want to do they have no social life they get into a lot of drinking habits and their families are breaking down because they spend a lot of time in their office self neglect it's a mental issue it's a mental issue and if you don't realize by the time you are moving and that by the time you are getting into a space whereby you feel like I can't take it anymore then you've really episodes until you are like I need help but why should we we don't have to get there we can take a proactive approach whereby let it be a priority I think Rame can tell you from my own experience the moment I had been hospitalized because I took myself to hospital after that I made it upon myself like whether I am not sick or someone would say they are not sick or however people want to put it is that I always make my doctors visit I always see my therapy at least once a month you have a story you do have a story before we get there talk to the sissus today that aspect of self neglect abandoning your own desires for the sake of the company what would you say about that I think actually I know one of the things is that I always like telling my peers that the sissut is that there is life even after you live that organization and the moment anything happens to you the moment anything happens to you it will not even take even 18 hours before you are replaced so you really need to understand that if you put yourself first then everything else falls into place and that's where you see and that's why you see even you have to have a life beyond your organization mental health for you as a sissut must be a priority and I can't press this enough because we've seen even you've served an organization 35 yas 30 yas and then now you're leaving to retirement then you ask yourself what next and that's when you have to go back to look for the family you neglected over the years exactly yes then you ask yourself what next that aspect you have to have a balance give you all to that organization because it's feeding you but also only remember this life after that you have to be very intentional with yourself first because you have the aspect of the wills of life that touches all the areas of your life you have relationship aspect you have self, you have your spiritual aspect you have your family you have your leisure and then you have your work when you realize that your work makes a very small percentage of your life that's when it actually will it will don't know that this is just an aspect of my life there are so many other areas of my life that need to be taken care of now let's get to to know your story and then I will blame HR somewhere you can't blame HR because the HR was the past the HR was the HR was me it was you I was the HR director so it really I think also it got to a point for me maybe what my story would be is that I have implemented HR programs for various organization mental health but in a very plastic way whereby it's more of a compliance it's a vision we are part of our core objectives in the organization and all that but when it got to me and of course are very empathetic in terms of mental health because I've seen what it can do to people so we're not taken care of so one time I have school I have family and I also have this work that I have to concentrate on and at point I was going for this even without sleeping but I didn't know what exactly was wrong and I felt at some point I felt like wow this something you are not sleeping at all is it insomnia I couldn't tell what it was but you see of course working also was part of it and also I as I said I am in school also but the aspect of not forgetting forgetting that this are these are aspect of it but also your well-being also comes is very very important so at one point I was fatigued completely I couldn't even move my legs and I was like my god I called one of my friends and I asked her can I get doctor Eric's number one of my doctors and he's like yeah I booked an appointment and I was like I feel that I'm very anxious about everything and I couldn't know what exactly it was so I took myself to Toronto my doctor told me everything needs to everything needs to stop work stop school stop family stop let's go back to you and I was there and I had to go through therapy I realized there are things that also when you have this nervous breakdown can actually be affected by things that probably happened very much in the past but now they've been really surprised they've not come out and even work issues and even my own personal issues so I had to go through that therapy and also and find out rituals that really really matter to me and this is something that every season needs to go exactly therapy yes and I remember that time that I was in hospital I met quite two I met two CEOs who had been there and we talked about this and were like wow we actually really need to really this really need to be taken care of and up to that point was like I have to be in a mission in terms of serving executive in regards to their mental health at that point you were working I was working in school yes yes and I'm still in school and it doesn't get better that's what I'm saying pressure doesn't reduce you can't run away from pressure it's not like the older you get no because you're like I have goals I have objectives and it's not like the more money you earn less the pressure no actually the more is required from you the more is required from you my goodness so how did it end up for you so you went for therapy you were hospitalized and my doctor told me can everything stop you were hospitalized yes and my doctor told me everything has to stop and I was like okay but I feel I'm okay but like no based on even how based on even the conversation I like you really need to give up breather so my phone was taken away I had even carried my laptop and I was going to you just imagine how your priorities so you carried your office laptop to the therapy imagine when I was there I realized so I was like why don't I really take let me just be still and be more aware and really realize and just get to observe this temple because I call my body a temple and if it's not okay then it means that things are not okay I love the fact that you said something that is very important you never knew that you were having a problem you never knew the doctor had told you that you need to put all this aside and concentrate on you you thought you were fine so do many sissuts watching today absolutely they think they are fine they think they are like no and also the aspect of mental health the way it has been associated with madness and that's what we really need we need to really remove that and actually so that mental health it starts from your well being it starts from taking care of your sleep taking care of all the aspects of your life so that all of them all the other things can be incoherent with everything else that really matters to you what are some of those pillars that can help sissuts to have a good working environment and of course have a healthy be healthy mentally some of those things that can help them push them forward to become better and stronger absolutely one of the things I really advocate for and that's based on my own experience especially is you have to establish a routine and in times of a routine of centering the aspect of first of all focusing on yourself do you take time to just be still and observe your thoughts the aspect of also just looking at what is not incoherent with the other the areas of your life so that ritual is very very important the aspect you also need to have time for people who really make you laugh that's your family yeah your family your friends you don't have to be surrounded by negativity you can imagine you're just from a board meeting and you have just this board meeting you have been told we need to increase ourselves by a certain amount you have to go and now talk to yourself director after you've done that again you need to go back and unwind what are the aspect of unwinding can you run so have spiritual practice have rituals for yourself that really matter to you now when it comes to unwinding now people go to alcohol also that was wrong and they're like I'm unwinding I need a shot I need a shot there I need to unwind that is not unwinding that is actually going back because now you're going back to the aspect of now you'll wake up and it's on a Monday yeah it's on a Monday on Tuesday you probably have a meeting that requires your attention and so you have to have rituals that really matter to you you have to map out I mean because even you as an individual you have stakeholders, you have your family you have friends and then the other thing that I've also seen based on even a research that I've conducted is that journaling really really helps write down your thoughts write down how you're feeling because sometimes the aspect that happens that you keep on keeping your thoughts inside it actually there's a point I mean it's just like a carpet when there's a lot of that inside they go to a point now you're going to outburst then actually be very intentional in actually having access to a therapist wow and not going to a therapist when now kimi umana it's when actually you make it you just have a conversation with your therapist every month and also does your network also have a role to play the network for the family yes your net and that's what I'm saying actually your tribe I call it the tribe your tribe really matters who are the people you're surrounding yourself with what kind of energy what kind of energy are you feeding on or what kind of energy are you putting out that really really matters a lot if at all you're surrounding yourself with people who are always talking about the way the economy is bad oh my god what is that it's really going to stress you up you can't just leave work you're stressed and then you there is something that I also want to to put across put on the table we talk about sea suits and I love the fact that we talk about them we talk about their family their friends and their networks this is a group of people that have an effect on these sea suits that I feel have also very important the employees those are the most important because out of them actually they are the most important they are the most important aspect because 80% of your delivery as the sea suit is determined they say 60 but for me I say 80% 80% 80% of the work you shine as the sea suit is from your employees and they are the ones who actually can bring a lot of pressure stress and anxiety to the sea suit absolutely and when you take care of yourself and then you translate and make it a culture of people taking care of themselves then you'll create a very good work environment and a very good culture in an organization I want to talk about the employees now not about but two the employees because we said the sea suits should handle this should handle that everything begins and ends in leadership everything starts from the top but what about these other guys who always pull them down they are the ones who gossip they are the ones who bring in a lot of issues in the office politics it is these employees let's talk to the employees here today what is the role of an employee when it comes to the mental health or affecting the mental health of a sea suit who is sitting at the top there that's a very tough one I'm just looking at it because I'll still talk about everything starts and ends with leadership but remember leadership are the ones who create the environment that needs to breed the best culture in organizations if at all you find employees gossiping employees are rumamongaring just look at their leaders just go there wow they are put as a polfa from the tree by the way and I will say this without fear of contradiction but with the red site of leadership you will create the kind of behaviors what are the values what are the values that that organization believing if at all there is no aspect of collaboration in that organization if their top leader does not disseminate information then it is supposed to be disseminated then it will tell you what kind of an environment we have look at organization which have really done well what exactly made them different the leaders everything starts and ends with leadership so a leader should not say the employees are disturbing what do you mean employees are disturbing me you have been there to be look at an organization which has some sort of a family kind of a culture who is the dad in that organization that is the CEO and I love actually Semon Sinek's philosophy on leaders it lasts what he says leaders have been given a charge to take care of their employees because out of those employees is what they are able to deliver their results from so as they say show me your friends and I'll show you who you are and I'll also say show me your organization and I'll tell you what kind of a leader there is in that organization I mean it's like these are laws that have been tested these are laws that have been there and there is no way we can run away from it and of course and that's why when you have have you ever asked yourself of organizations that you'll never hear of Grumamongaring or there's no toxic work culture you just look at their leader what the kind of culture that has been created in that organization and if I told there's an outlier the way they deal with that outlier they would not want it to be diluted so if you'd like to have good mental health for your employees and for the sissuts the leadership needs to create a good working culture exactly and if it's a bad culture change it change it and actually have now start spearheading change in that organization and in the process you'll have to actually let go some people if I love this conversation time is not on our side we have to wrap it up and I want to give you time to have a final word in regards to this particular issue what is your parting short we'll talk about mental health for the sissuts and of course if we have to talk to somebody that is your camera oh that's my camera it feels very different so my parting short in terms of mental health for executives is that it doesn't have to be lonely at the top and we are the drivers of having the best workplace and it starts with us taking care of our mental health and cascading this to our entire organization I mean it's a silent mental health is no longer a silent pandemic it's now a very loud pandemic and thank you so much for having me white 254 and those are my final words thank you so much that is even material powerful lady I should host you again and then we'll talk about HR we'll see about that it's about mental health when it comes to CEO how can we engage them how can we improve it and of course that brings us to the end of this particular conversation it's all about understanding these and much more and of course I hope you've learned something are you a sissut, are you an employee I hope you've learned something at the end of the day it's all about understanding that your mental health is very important you come first my name is Ram Aguko the hashtag is why in the morning we are taking a short break we'll be back in a bit