 Friends and comrades, welcome very much to May Day Bookstore and Cafe. This is part of a regular series of events that we are hoping to have at the bookstore, where we can discuss issues of contemporary importance and relevance. Today's discussion is essentially centered around the whole question of the crisis, the economic crisis, the ongoing economic crisis and the politics of the left. Now, for this discussion, we are very glad to have with us two eminent Marxist intellectuals, Prof. Ajaz Ahmed and Prof. Prabhat Patnaik. I'm not going to introduce them to a gathering such as this. We are all very familiar with them, with their works. We have heard them, we have read them and so on. I should just say that I am particularly pleased that in the first of these discussions that is happening, the two of them are here because both of them are also members of the editorial advisory board of Leftward Books. So therefore, it's a very special pleasure for me to have them here for the discussion today. We have been following the news and we know that very recently the elections in France and then immediately after that in Greece have sent out a strong message. And very clearly the economic crisis that sort of came to head in 2007-2008 has still shown no signs of going away, of abating. Now, every moment of crisis is also necessarily a moment of opportunity. And the moment of opportunity is obviously a moment of opportunity for revolutionary accounts. But of course, there is no one-to-one direct relationship between the two. In other words, if the revolutionary forces, if the communist left forces, the working class and so on are actually in a position to take advantage of that crisis situation, then of course the crisis can turn into a revolutionary crisis, into a revolutionary opportunity. On the other hand, if that is not the case, in fact, the very opposite can also happen. And there are numerous instances in world history to show how an economic crisis has in fact led to the emergence of very rabid right-wing, in fact even fascistic forces and so on. Now, it is now four years since the crisis began. And of course the end doesn't seem to be anywhere on the horizon. Let me ask Professor Patanayam that it's also becoming increasingly clear that the people, especially in Europe and in North America, are reacting very strongly to the austerity measures that have been put in place by the parties of neoliberalism. The key question in some ways is that is this in a sense the end of neoliberalism or is it merely a temporary lip out of which neoliberalism will regroup, will emerge stronger and so on. Do the recent election results, but not just the election results, I am saying, do the recent waves of protests, strikes and so on across Europe mean that the moment of neoliberalism has been significantly challenged? Yes, you know, when it comes to neoliberalism, it does not have alternative agendas. It has one agenda. The real hurdle to our overcoming neoliberalism is our having our own agenda. And I think the real problem in Europe is actually having an agenda which would successfully take you beyond neoliberalism. In other words, if you're going to confront finance, which is the main force behind neoliberalism, you have to do so with an agenda and it's not very clear in Europe, even though there's electoral victory, popular struggles and so on, how these popular aspirations are going to be transformed into an alternative agenda. Let me just state very simply that, you know, that let's say prior to neoliberalism, you had all over Europe and the advanced capitalist world significant state intervention in demand management. That was Keynesian demand management. That was done within the context of a nation state and you had capital control so that the nation, in a sense, was sufficiently cordoned off for the nation state's writ to run within the nation. With financial flows becoming liberalized, which happened in Europe in the 60s, happened elsewhere, subsequently in India in the 90s, it becomes very difficult for the writ of the nation state to run, which is why Keynesian demand management is out. Now, if you are thinking in terms of a demand stimulus as opposed to austerity, then either you have to, as it were, recover the nation state like getting out of the eurozone, having capital controls, putting barriers and so on so that let's say the nation state that is formed on the basis of the verdict of the Greek electorate is able to have an economic agenda other than that of finance. The alternative, which is the alternative that I suppose anybody on the left in Europe would like is that actually you have the pan-European nation state itself really in a sense taking on a role which is different from that of being a spokesman of finance. I think that is what the socialist agenda is to what extent they succeed in doing and so on is a different matter. But I think a lot of the movements in Europe, of the left, would combine to put pressure on transforming the pan-European nation state itself into something beyond what Angela Merkel wants it to be and that means basically overcoming the close links between the state and finance. In other words, the state is no longer enthralled them to finance, but the pan-European nation state has an economic agenda which is in the interest of the people and this of course is going to be bitterly opposed by finance. So I think in a sense the denouement of the people versus finance is in fact now coming into itself. And how would you sort of see this central contradiction in a sense between the people and finance playing out in the coming few months and years it is? Taking up from there some of the things that Prabhakar was saying it's not only the left that has gained somewhat in a couple of countries. The real story in Europe is the rise of the far-right. In 2010 in the Netherlands the far-right got 24% of the vote and became the deciding factor in Netherlands politics. In Austria far-right is absolutely normal now having ruled, it's absolutely normal. In the French elections Marine Le Pen got more votes, I mean percentage of the vote not only of Malinchon but also since the increase. That's the big news. Now the other side of it is that what Prabhakar was saying that either you reclaim the nation state. That has become a very big agenda with these for convenience sake let's say far-right. The far-right is a very interesting phenomenon and especially Marine Le Pen who may in fact emerge from four or five years from now as the major force in France. She was the only candidate in France which had a progressive foreign policy which was absolutely against every imperialist onslaught who stood for the creation of Palestinian state complete withdrawal from Afghanistan, Iraq and so on denouncing French activities in Libya and all that. A full-fledged left foreign policy coming from the far-right as it were. And Le Pen is the one who is speaking the language of economic nationalism. So now what is happening is that finance capital has waged and is still waging the most powerful offensive against the European peoples since the 1930s. It's the most ferocious form of class struggle. Merkel has said that if Greece leaves the Euro we can adjust that the Eurozone we can adjust that. We will not give them the next trench of this that and the other. So the finance capital is actually digging in. Holland the social democratic president now the new one in France who went to meet Merkel just as the series was being asked to form the government in Greece. I think he has indicated very much to Merkel that he will be on the side of Merkel if there is a confrontation between Bon and Ethens. I don't expect anything else from them. Which takes me back to the fact that the neoliberalism was not implemented by the right. It was implemented. It was a joint policy of the social democrats in the right. So it's a European ruling class as a whole. My sense is that the European peoples in a variety of countries in Spain, France, Greece of course in Italy in a number of countries are very much opposed to the austerity program but they don't have a political mooring as such. In Spain which has had next to Greece, Spain has had the most radical popular uprisings next to Greece but when it came election time they elected the candidate of the very much of the right who said that he was going to impose these austerity programs. So there is a tremendous vacuum. Now because there is a crisis of this kind, political crisis and direct confrontation of that kind I think certain factors in the political scene can change very rapidly as we saw in Greece. Things can change in some countries. Things can change quite rapidly. Towards the right, towards the left. Which way it will go is very unclear to me. So that's what I would say that there is a spontaneous sort of feeling of very vast majority of Europeans in most countries against the austerity but there is complete political confusion as to which side you go. And that also is true of the working class. Working class vote of Le Pen is not minor. PCF has no, the French Communist Party has no base among the working classes. It's now a party of the professional middle class. So there is also that kind of transformation going on in the political field in a moment of crisis. I just want to add two things. You see I think the fact that the right is now the carrier of economic nationalism or claiming the nation state is I think a result in Europe of the default on the part of the left. In other words, Italy is a very good example. I mean I think in Italy the austerity measures are being imposed through this government which is a sort of technocratic government and so on. But the opposition to this government which is the loudest is coming from Berlusconi. If there is an election Berlusconi would get elected and not the left. And the second point I want to add to what I was saying is that I think on the part of the European left there is a complete intellectual paralysis on the question of the nation state. I mean you know because I can understand because wars and so on. I mean they see nationalism as a dirty word and pan nationalism as a way forward even if it's pan nationalism of the kind that they are having. But on the other hand that is something so either you convert the pan nation itself into a progressive force for popular intervention or alternatively you have to opt out of it and none of them would visualize opting out of it. And that's why you know I mean in a situation where where sort of Blair rights social democracy is completely as a justice in cahoots with the interests of finance the left which should actually be leading if you like the intellectual charge on it is really quite paralysed. And what is your sense of the future of social democracy itself? I mean for at least two decades if not more as you said social democracy has not just embraced neoliberalism it has in fact I mean neoliberalism has been the policy of social democracy. But on the other hand right now we are at a fairly interesting moment where for instance in the recent elections in Germany in the regional elections that happened the SDP has done fairly well. Development. Absolutely and in France as well. Now Greece of course is a very special case and we'll come to that in a moment but do you think that this is a moment where these traditional social democratic parties of Europe might sort of regain or reclaim some of their older sort of social democratic moorings if you will rather than only tactically sort of try and adjust at the moment but not really... Alright there are two or three things here and then I'm very curious to hear Provaat tell us about it. Malishu was a member of the Socialist Party for 30 years. He was a minister in Joe Spence government. He's a social democrat. He's trying to reclaim social democracy for a radical past of social democracy. What social democracy once was and around that build a coalition and so on. The same is true of Oscar Lafontaine in Germany. What is happening is that the radical sections of the social democratic parties are leaving social democratic parties either formally leaving them as these very prominent leaders have now or not voting for them. I mean much of the vote that has gone to the left is actually historically social democratic vote and what one is hoping by the way in Greece is that now that it is quite credible that Caesar will form a government a lot of the PASOC, the social democratic vote, what little is still left of it will come to him. So I mean what's happening to social democracy actually is and that is because social democratic parties were so profoundly committed to this bankers Europe as I call it that they themselves have absolutely know where to go when they approach elections they start talking wild sort of Keynesianism and when they are in power there is a logic to what they have historically done. So what one hopes is that there would be a split in social democracy and the radical sections of it will come out of it and join the effort. Yes, I mean I think this you find already happening as you said in the German Social Democratic Party in the British Labour Party the younger melee band becoming the leader is in some sense reflective of the strengthening of the left tendency within it. Now I think all over Europe the trade unions have been quite militant even though social democracy has not been. This is true of France, this is true of Britain, this is true even of Spain and so on. You know in some sense the trade union movement has really taken on finance on the question of austerity while there is no political formation correspondingly of the working class to actually provide that kind of political lead. Now I am hoping that in the new situation where actually the anti-austerity mode is getting politically reflected there would be a split in social democracy but you know the split alone is not enough it is very important for the left to have a clear agenda you know because I am not even sure when Ed Millie band if he comes to power what exactly he is going to do. I mean just as we are not sure what the socialist president is going to do is he will stand up to Merkel or is he going to actually give in to Merkel. So it is very important for the left in the broad sense to actually have a clear agenda and I don't think at the moment they still haven't personally I have actually encountered this even in people like Zizek and so on their attitude to the nation is an extremely hostile one and in that context I mean you know suppose Greece does not get accommodation from the pan-European formation what does Greece do? It may have to come out of the Eurozone it may have to have a debt moratorium even if it doesn't wish to come out of the European community it will probably be thrown out of the European community and many intellectuals on the left would see that as possibly a reactionary development in Greece because strengthening of nationalism is supposed to be and I suppose I have some sympathy for this is supposed to mean in a certain sense strengthening of right wing forces inward looking forces and so on. Let me just add one thing about this thing about the European left attitude towards towards nation nationalism and so on. I think one of the ways one of the consequences of it is that they in a much too facile fashion use the word fascist for some of these right wing forces. Marine Le Pen is in no classical sense of fascist. She's right wing radical. Precisely because they're nationalists that they try to occupy the space of economic nationalism they are seen immediately as xenophobic that and fascistic. Nationalism for them is really always a right wing ideology with a fascistic content and that is where this reject business that you are referring to always plays let's talk a little bit about Greece. Now how do we see the rise of the city itself? Would you say that it's a genuinely radical left force or would you go along with the assessment of the KKE which sees it as a revisionist sort of a breakaway trying to disrupt the unity of the left and so on and on the other hand how do you see the stand of the KKE itself which says that we will have no traffic anybody until this question of coming out of the Eurozone is settled. How do you see this? You know I okay let me put it this way you can call it a failure on my part my weakness but I really believe that finance is an extraordinarily powerful enemy given the extreme power of finance and its power arises because it's not visible you see a landlord is visible but finance is not you know I mean they all kinds of ways in which it actually defeats you so given that I am a person who I believe that the widest possible united front against finance is required that does not mean you united front at the expense of giving up the anti-finance agenda but to the extent you can accommodate an anti-finance agenda you really need the widest possible united front tactics now I have always been struck by the fact that the KKE does not believe in this that's my feeling I met some of them personally a couple of years ago and I thought they really were not seeing the need for united front sufficiently that's my feeling it may be a prejudice but that's the way I see them.