 Welcome back to Plus Politics. The president of the Senate, Ahmed Lawan, has stated that Nigeria is a poor nation and that has no option but to borrow to fund infrastructure development. Lawan, however, showed that the legislature will not be frivolous in granting executive requests for loans. He said such requests would be subjected to thorough scrutiny by the parliament before approval to ensure the use of the loan is monitored via an oversight arrangement. Joining us to discuss this is Gospel O'Billy, an economist. Thank you for joining us, Mr. O'Billy. Thank you for having me. Good evening. All right, so there's been, you know, arguments for many, a couple of years now actually. Back and forth, there's people who agree that Nigeria is completely broke. There's those who say, no, Nigeria is not broke. It is just poorly managed. I'm going to share, you know, something from Kingsley Mogalu, who posted on social media a couple of hours, I believe, maybe days ago. It says Nigeria is in poor. It is impoverished. We don't need to borrow. We do because we are lazy to think, generate revenue locally and too corrupt to let go of government funding inflated infrastructure contracts that can be done by private capital under PPP. So once again, I'm going to ask the question, do you think or do you agree with the Senate president or with Kingsley Mogalu? Is Nigeria broke? I don't think Nigeria is, I would say a mix of both, first of all. Nigeria has been poorly mismanaged and the way it stands right now. Technically speaking, Nigeria is broke. But if you look at it in terms of potentials, they are available for us to explore and maximize for infrastructure financing and all of that. Nigeria is not broke. So it's a figurative meaning when people say Nigeria is not broke. But technically within the scheme of things as it's where right now in economic management, that's the case. Okay, so let me understand better. Is it that we're not making enough from taxation, from a sale of oil, from agriculture, whatever else? Is it that the country isn't making enough or we're just not using our money well? It's actually a mix of everything. So first of all, the monies you're getting from the oil receipts are not being properly used for the right developmental causes. So it's either you are servicing a debt or you are funding government waste or from all kinds of recurrents or the other. So you have that there. Secondly, Nigeria is not making enough. Not making enough not because it doesn't have the potential to make enough. But not making enough because it hasn't properly diversified the non-oil revenue base and enabled critical economic agents in that space like SMEs or access markets beyond the nation. So yes, you have that document. You have the argument of not making enough in that regard. And also you have the argument of poorly mismanaging what it has currently in terms of wire receipts. Okay, well we're going to get into the perspective of making enough and how we can maybe even make more or maximize all the potentials we have as a nation to make a whole lot more money. But let's look into something that of course the Senate President also mentioned and that is borrowing to fund infrastructure. We currently are in about 33 trillionaire debt. We of course have borrowed and are still borrowing to fund infrastructure. Do you think that there are ways that we can look internally and fund our infrastructure by ourselves without continuing to borrow? The debt servicing figures currently are really, really shocking. Okay, so let me first state that technically there's no nation in the world that has reached a level of development that did not borrow. Budget deficits are normal to a very large extent. You'll hardly find a station where economists have budget surplus or a balanced budget. So it's largely budget deficit. Then the question now becomes that how do you finance those deficits? So you can either finance those deficits. One of the ways to finance those deficits is through debts. All right, so the big question is not really on the debts. It's actually on how those monies are channeled and what are the priorities for the public leadership or the government of the day. So technically we've not used those funds very well over the years. We once had a debt relief on the Paris Club in 2000 and people fall. But right now we find ourselves in the probably worst situation that we were then. That's one. On the second, and we understand infrastructure financing or infrastructure projects in a sense are very, very cubed by some projects. And right now in terms of revenue mobilization and developmental financing, Nigeria cannot afford to finance its infrastructure by itself at the moment. At the moment. Now, are there potentials to be able to unlock that? Yes. But if you look at it from a time lag and the urgency of infrastructure, being the fact also we've had a long history of fiscal and discipline, made that all the monies we made, all the monies we borrowed, nobody. At the moment are still largely being wasted and they've been properly appropriated or used. If you look at all that the fiscal and discipline and the poor revenue mobilization, then you know that there's a potential for us to finance our development ourselves. But because you have those two problems on board and infrastructure is a bit of an immediate item on the table, then the country has to look for critical ways to finance infrastructure. All right. So the focus largely is what are these monies being used for and the level of how they be channeled in terms of mainstream financing on projects and speeding up on projects and all of that to ensure that infrastructure is being delivered to Nigerian people. Well, it's also the responsibility of the government in power to figure these things out. For too long now, we've instead had persons in positions of power who have been appointed given speeches instead of actually going to work, given reasons, blaming one factor or the other instead of actually going to work. And it's going to be sad for Nigerians that after 80 years a set of people leave government or leave office and all they've done in those 80 years are talk about the reasons why things aren't working instead of actually being there and making sure that things work. So there is that. Another responsibility I believe the government should have is, as it currently stands, we have a problem with leakages of government funds. We have not been able to successfully create systems that block leakages. Ministries, department and agencies, contracts, the National Assembly, there's so much and so many ways through which Nigeria loses money every day without being able to account for any of these billions and billions of Naira. So let's talk about where the current administration may still be failing to block leakages with regards to government funds. Just to be in this context, failure to block funds and all of that and show that they're being used correctly. But leakages can also mean that the inaction that comes from government when SMEs do business across the shores and they make a lot of money without no checks and balance in that case. So leakage is also very, very related. It bothers everybody on your actions and your inactions. So yes, I agree that being the structural deficits we have in the Nigerian economy, leakages are a major issue that we have. One way to block these leakages would have been the use of technology in the sense, and also maximizing the Nigerian business ecosystem. But the truth is that you cannot do so much in the ecosystem until you've provided an enabling environment. All right? Part of providing an enabling environment is that the environment is so efficient that there are no room for leakages. All right? Because when you don't have an enabling environment, it automatically means that by your actions or inactions, there are rooms for leakages. So, and other economic agents are equally as smart or if not smarter. We have identified these leakages and tried to gain the system on those grounds. So yes, you can't blame them for that, but I think to a large extent the government has to build an efficient system around blocking leakages, particularly through the use of technology. All right? And whilst doing all of these things is showing that there is an enabling environment for people to thrive, so until the system is working, we cannot correctly block leakages to a large extent. Well, you know, you said you can't blame them. I'm guessing a lot of people would disagree because, you know, it's still part of their responsibility. I say you can't blame the SMEs for trying to optimize leakages. Oh, okay. Not the government. Well, I'm referring to government and being able to set up systems and you said, you know, technology. They should be able to set up systems to ensure that every single penny that is meant for the government gets into government accounts and we're able to increase the amount of earnings by the Nigerian government. We should be able to do better with auditing. We have a billion Naira contracts every other week and we still are not able to audit properly where all these funds go into. Every year we have a, you know, a budget, you know, and trillions of Naira, you know, are spent every year in the country. We still don't do proper auditing to, you know, where all these funds go. Customs, immigration, there's so much that money can come from. Let me introduce Narmeka Obieriri, who is an investment banking executive. Thanks for joining us. If you can hear us, Mr. Narmeka, can you quickly say hello? Thanks for having me. All right, welcome. Thanks for joining us. So I want you to start up your conversation with regards blocking the leakages in government. Nigeria should be making a whole lot more. Should be having a lot more finances, you know, to fix infrastructure, but we don't seem to be finding this money anywhere. That's one question. I think one would be on how you think Nigeria can make more money. In what directions do you think our investment should be now? Should it be in agriculture, in information technology, in tourism anywhere? Okay, first of all, when we talk about leakages in the system, it's deliberate. It's a deliberate opaque system that will have been created by the 1999 Constitution, which a class of people that are classified as gangsters, people that are classified as political bandits across the nation, you know, deliberate created leakages that they know can easily be blocked. I'll give you a clear example. Nigeria is one country that is so blessed, one country that can actually live beyond the tag as the extreme property capital of the world if we are very sincere and honest. We talked about burrowing. Nigeria has no business burrowing if we have put our acts together. If you look at the records and the MPS reports, even the reports on the GMO, based on the second quarter reports, first quarter reports, 2021, Nigeria is spending about one trillion naira to service existing debts. One trillion naira used to pay interest component of over 22 trillion naira that has been accumulated over the last six years. One trillion naira that is used to service the interest component of over $22 billion that has been borrowed over the last six years that cannot be explained. And I will explain to you this. If you look at the 2021 budget, you will see clearly that that budget is predicated upon a deficit of about 5.2 trillion. 5.2 trillion that has been borrowed either by way of means from Central and Nigeria or through external burrowing. I've never seen a country, if Nigeria is a corporation, far long it would have been liquidated, and I will explain why. If you look at the 2021 budgets, the recurrent expenditure, both the wages and non-wages expenditure, is more than the revenue that we expected to incur, both from the oil and the non-oil sector. I've never seen a country anywhere in the whole world where the budget is planned and predicated on burrowing to pay for consumption. It is never done anywhere in Nigeria. And everything which this country is built in 1999 constitution, a constitution that provided for a China arrangement where people gather in a poachers to sell crude oil, share the revenues. Nobody within the 20 years of government is thinking about how they can create wealth. If you look at the 1960 constitution, those constitution were built upon a fiscal framework that allows for productivity, for resource control, where every constituent unit will go back to their base, create up revenue based on activities unique to those constituencies, contribute 50% to the sector and give it to themselves. These constituent units, both at the local government and the state level, do not bother one bit of how they can raise and create wealth and bring bread to the table. Everybody is waiting for the crude oil from our delta to be shared and distributed among the state. Nigeria is resource poor, and that is why we are burrowing. If we will go back to the 1960 constitution framework that are allowed for resource control, that are allowed for regional autonomy, that are allowed for the constitution needs to relook inward and grow their economies based on what is complicated but they have within those units and they contribute 50% to the sector and give it to themselves. Most states in Nigeria, most government elected political officials, we sit down and drill down on the assets and resources within their localities, build on those states and contribute to the sector. So what we are having today, what we are burrowing is because we have refused at all levels to tap into the resources available to us, but natural and human capital to build wealth that will be shared among the component units and nationalities within Nigeria. If you look at Nigeria from 1960 to 1966, look at our contemporaries in Dolesia, Malaysia, Singapore, you will discover that we have been left behind. We had a constitutional framework from 1966 that allowed each of the constituent units to drill down their assets, create value, give 50% to themselves and contribute to the sector. Today, we have a Barbara economy, a physical framework that intrudes laziness, that intrudes indolency, that intrudes corruption, that intrudes the worst of us, ruling over the best of us, and that is where we are today. Alright, Mr. Nemeke. If you look at it, I'm not sure if you can see or hear us. Mr. Nemeke, I think your response basically answered the two questions that I had asked you, and it's time for us to now wrap up the conversation on Plus Politics this evening, talking about Nigeria's finances and the need for restructuring and how we can do better if we make the right decisions. It's a conversation that can last for days or weeks. But I thank you both, Gospelo Bili, an economist and Nemeke, Ohi, Obeiriri, for both joining us and for sharing your views with us this evening. Looking forward to having another conversation with you. Thank you for having us. Alright, thank you for staying with us so far. It's been pretty interesting. We'll take a short break and when I return, I'll be giving my take. Still is Plus Politics, and now my take. Part of the job of the media is giving everyone a voice, the ability to hear different views on issues. We strive to make this happen for fairness, but also for traction and for views on our individual platforms. Media organizations want to interview pastors, government officials, boss drivers, criminal suspects, ex-convicts, basically everyone who brings a perspective to issues or brings controversy and viewership to our platforms is part of what we do as a media. But there's a problem when we allow the need for clicks on our platforms to drive our decisions on who gets that platform. Sometimes we may be doing more harm than good. Sometimes, constantly giving your platform to characters to have their say allows for the spread of toxic, dangerous views, almost even legitimizing views that could create more damage to the journey forward. It gives more boldness to characters who normally should hide their heads in shame. It destroys the moral compass with which we should live as a people. We should all fight to kill or change certain narratives and not give them platforms to grow. We should protect our society from destructive elements and not instead give them a megaphone of boldness. And that's my take. Thank you for joining us. I am Osao Gie, Ogmoa.