 money and you can do whatever. What drives you to this kid? Yeah, it could be slipping my ties on on a tropical island, you know, when surfing with naked models. Yeah, you know, some people do that. So what drives you to, I mean, obviously you work in our work. It's not white, why am I not, what's white? He even has a sense of humor. Why am I not doing that? And of course these, all these guys at Babylon B are all Christian conservatives and it's like naked models. You're not supposed to do that alone. I just realized, I've been wrong all this time. Why am I working 90 hours a week? This is crazy. Because when it's passed me the idea of like, I've made it. People always want to say, be able to say I've made it. I've arrived. Yeah. And like how do you, you know, you hit those little islands in your life and you actually have to break yourself of that mindset and what are ways that you break yourself of that mindset and keep on going. I didn't put all this effort into building SpaceX and Tesla because I thought they were easy ways to make money. I mean, anyone who starts a car company thinking it's the easy way to make money is a fool. Absolutely right. There are only two car companies that have not gone bankrupt in the history of the United States and that's Ford and Tesla. And Tesla came within inches of going bankrupt multiple times as to SpaceX. So, and like who starts a rocket company think it's gonna be successful. I thought about, I mean, both those companies I thought had less than a 10% chance of success. I mean, that's pretty amazing. You know, it's pretty amazing. The idea that you start a company and as you're here, he put all his money that he made on PayPal into these companies so all his wealth was tied up in them with it with a 10% chance of success. I mean, it takes a lot of self-esteem. It takes a lot of courage. It takes vision. It takes a certain joy in just shooting for the moon. Well, he is shooting for the moon. I mean, really, just going for it and going big, not going small, going big. Who does that? Who goes big? Everybody today is such a wimp and careful and worried and overly thoughtful and, you know, why just not go for it? And these are two companies that, yeah, other companies go bankrupt. That's what auto companies do. And rocket companies. Where does that come from? So, just that. Wow. Isn't it fun to be alive when there's a businessman like this who's going for it, full on going for it? That's truly the American spirit in the American sense of life. And I thought it was overwhelmingly likely that I would lose the money that I made from PayPal. You know, I came to North America when I was 17 just by myself. And I had like a few thousand dollars in traveler's checks back when traveler's checks were a thing, you know, in Canadian dollars. I landed in Montreal. I have some family in Canada. And my mom's uncle lived in Montreal, but like we didn't know his phone number. So I landed in Montreal and my mom says, I just got a letter back from my uncle. He's in Minnesota or something. So I'm like, okay, I don't know what to do now. It's like, just stayed in a youth hostel and like bought a bus ticket across Canada. And I worked in various odd jobs and stuff. Worked on my mom's cousin's wheat farm in Saskatchewan for six weeks. That's where I had my 18th birthday, actually. Worked in the lumber mill, chainsawed logs, did various odd jobs. And then went to college in Canada for a couple years. I paid my own way through college, by the way. But in Canada, it's like easier because the college is more subsidized. And I was a Canadian citizen through my mom. So, and I got some scholarships and loans and stuff. And then I applied to the University of Pennsylvania. And I didn't think I'd be able to go because tuition is really high, but they gave me a scholarship and loans and stuff. So I was able to go there. I graduated with about $100,000 in student debt. And I was going to do grad studies at Stanford and decided to put that on hold to try starting an internet company. I actually, I tried to get a job at Netscape, but they didn't, I'd send my resume and I'd get a response. So I was like, okay, I guess I can't get a job at the, there are only a few internet companies and it can get a job at anything. So I was like, I guess I want to do some of the internet and I got to start my own company. But I ended up writing the first maps and directions on the internet. I wrote personally maps, directions, yellow pages, white pages on a puny computer, like with hardly any. So you had to be like, the code had to be super tight. I even have some patents on like maps and directions and yellow pages and white pages and stuff from ages ago. They're lapsed now. But that company ended up getting bought by Compact for about $300 million. I own 7% of the company. So I got like $20 million from that. I put most of it into x.com, which was with Confinity to create PayPal. And then I got about $180 million from that. And for all of that into SpaceX, Tesla and Solar City, I've just basically kept, you know, kept all the chips on the table, just like let's play another round. And most people take the chips off the table or at least some of their chips. And then SpaceX and Tesla ended up being valuable. And that's where I'm but the reason for SpaceX and Tesla. So right. So there's a there's a rundown of his career. I thought that was a quick rundown. It was nice. The guy is a serial entrepreneur. He's done this more than once. He started a software company basically in grad school, sold it for $300 million. I think he said in the own 7% he got $20 million. And then of course, he's one of the founders ultimately of what became PayPal x.com that became PayPal. That is quite a resume. That's impressive. And somebody says who he's got the Canadian spirit. Well, the amazing thing is, and this is I think, I don't think you Americans like to hear this. But the fact is that the people who have the most American spirit are immigrants. In this case, he was he was he grew up in South Africa, where I have family roots to he grew up in South Africa moved to Canada and then to the United States. And as an immigrant, these are the kind of people you guys want to build walls want to keep out. He changed the world. But it's often immigrants who have that American spirit, that spirit of we can do anything. That spirit of nobody's going to stand in my way. That how it works for it, if you will. I am going to make it even after working a query for a while. And I think Elon Musk has exhibited that throughout his career. He just goes out there and does it. He makes it happen. He's obviously brilliant. He's obviously super smart. But part of it is that he makes it that he is ambitious. He's willing to walk super super hard. Super super hard. And he doesn't believe we need to go to Mars because the world is ending because of climate change or something like that. He'll he doesn't believe that at all. We'll see that in a minute. All right, let's switch gears. And let's talk about Elon's kind of how he thinks about solving problems. His you know, to some extent is epistemology. So let's look at this. This is from Lex Friedman show. And I think I think this is an interesting segment. See what you think. See what you think of this. You know, Lex has always asked super thoughtful questions. And Elon has these pretty amazing answers. What's the pause before he answers? What's your source of belief in situations like this? When the engineering problem is so difficult? There's a lot of experts, many of whom you admire who have failed in the past. Yes. And a lot of people, you know, a lot of experts, maybe journalists, all the kind of you know, the public in general have a lot of doubt about whether it's possible. And you yourself know that even if it's a non null set, non empty set of success, it's still unlikely or very difficult. Like where do you go to, both personally, intellectually as engineer, as a team, like for source of strength needed to sort of persevere through this. So that's the question is about belief about source of strength. And you'll see in a minute, Elon doesn't know exactly how to answer this question, because he doesn't think in those terms. And that I find super interesting. And to keep going with the project, take it to completion. Listen to pause. Just thinking. That's rare. source of strength. I just really know how I think about things. I mean, for me, it's simply this, this is something that is important to get done. And we should just keep doing it. Or die trying. And I, I don't need source of strength. So quitting is not even like, that's not, it's not in my nature. And I don't care about optimism or pessimism. Fuck that. We're going to get it done. Now that's the American spirit. After that, we're going to get it done. We just are. We're going to figure out a way. And we're going to get it done. That's the kind of attitude that, you know, America is always represented. And I can't think of anybody right now out there who represented more than Elon Musk. And it's like source of belief, source of strength. No, just, I just get it done. We just get it done. I tell the team, we just need to get it done, figure it out, get it done. Can you then zoom back in to specific problems with starship or any engineering problems you work on? Can you try to introspect your particular biological neural network, your thinking process and describe how you think through problems, the different engineering and design problems. Is there like a systematic process you spoken about first principles thinking, but is there kind of process to it? Well, um, you know, like saying, like, like physics is low and everything else is a recommendation. Like I've met a lot of people that can break the law, but I haven't met anyone who could break physics. So that's great. You start with facts. You start with reality. You start with what the laws of physics are. If you're an engineer, right, that you cannot change, but that's kind of the first principles. So, so first, for, you know, any kind of technology problem you have to sort of just make sure you're not violating physics. And, you know, first principles analysis, I think is something that could be applied to really any walk of life, anything really. It's just, it's really just saying, you know, let's let's boil something down to the most fundamental principles, the things that we are most confident are true at a foundational level. And that sets you at your sets your axiomatic base, and then you reason up from there. And then you cross check your conclusion against the axiomatic truths. So he's missing the observations and all of that, right? He's missing the concretes, the experience and all that. But this is pretty good. This is pretty good. Only basics and physics would be like, are you violating conservation of energy or momentum or something like that? You know, then you, it's not gonna work. So that's, you know, so that's just to establish is it is it possible? And then another good physics tool is thinking about things in the limit. If you if you take a particular thing and you scale it to a very large number or to a very small number, how does how do things change? Well, it's like tempo, like in number of things you manifest. Yeah, I mean, I wanted you to get that piece on first principles. And now he thinks about problems, how it starts with reality, physics represents reality really. And you always test against reality, you always confirm against reality. I mean, here's a real thinker, and you get a sense that he's a thinker from the way he answers questions. I'd finally, I want to show this clip. At the end of Joe Rogan show, I think it represents a bit about, you know, what motivates him around, particularly around SpaceX. You know, you get a little bit of an idea of his motivation. I think, I think he's, you know, he's, he looks a little, maybe this is the episode where he smoked pot with Joe Rogan, I don't know, because he looks a little off. So ignore that. Listen to what he actually says. A lot of folks. Yeah, I mean, but like, you know, my goal is like, try to do useful things. Try to maximize the probability that the future is good. Try to do useful things and try to maximize the probability that the future is good. That's not bad. You want rules for life. They kind of fit in there. It doesn't contradict them. Could could be more fleshed out. Make the future exciting. Make the future exciting. There's another one. I love that. Look forward to, you know, make it so you look forward to another one. You know, with Tesla, we're like trying to make things that people love. Yeah, it's like not. That sounds a little bit like Apple, try to make things that people love. And you know, that it's just, it's just he has this vision of I want to make amazing, exciting, thrilling things that will make the future better. I mean, wow, that's a great vision for an entrepreneur. I think how many, how many things can you buy that you really love that really give you joy? So rare, so rare. I wish there were more things. That's what we're trying to just make things that somebody loves. Well, make things that somebody loves. You could phrase it in a different way. You could talk about the fact that what business does is you create values, values for people. Why are these things values for people? Because it's stuff that people love, stuff that people love to consume, to use, to drive. Is my iPhone stuff that people love to use. This is something I love to use. That's, it's a beautiful thing. And it's, I think what ultimately inspires every great entrepreneur, the creation of value, the creation of value, making the world better by creating value and doing it by challenging yourself. When you, when you think about making things that someone loves, like, do you specifically think about like what things would improve people's experience? Like what, what would change the way people interface with life that would make them more relaxed or more happy? You really think like when you're thinking about things like that, is that like one of your considerations? Like what, what could I do that would help people? So this is a funny thing. It's like Joe Morgan wants something that help people. But when he goes to help people, he goes to meditation. He goes to relax. He goes to these superficial things. And Elan is all about creating real values. Exciting stuff, building stuff, making stuff. None of this touchy-feely, oozy or altruistic stuff. Now Elan wants to help people, that help people by creating great values for them. Yeah, maybe they wouldn't be able to figure out. Yeah, like, like what are the set of things that can be done to make the future better? Make the future better is much better than, you know, help people. So I think the future where we are a spacefaring civilization and out there among the stars, this is very exciting. I agree and I love that. It's super exciting. If the human race is out there in the stars, it's super exciting. If Star Trek or whatever come and become real, if all the sci-fi stuff that we read is real, that would be truly super exciting. It's not about planet Earth decaying or, you know, it's about how ambitious we're going to be. Any more than Christopher Columbus didn't set sail to find, you know, to explore new lands because he was worried about the decay of Europe but because he was an explorer. He wanted to discover new lands. He was ambitious. This makes me look forward to the future. This makes me want that future. Looking forward to the future, wanting that future. All positive things. You know, there are things, there need to be things that make you look forward to waking up in the morning. You wake up in the morning, you look forward to the day, look forward to the future. A future where we are a spacefaring civilization and out there among the stars, I think that's very exciting. That is a thing we want. I agree. Whereas if you knew we would not be a spacefaring civilization but forever confined to Earth, this would not be a good future. That would be very sad, I think. I agree. It would be sad in terms. You don't want the sad future. Of the just the finite lifespan of the Earth itself and the solar system itself. No, no, no. That even though it's possibly, you know, I mean, how long do they feel like this sun? Well, when Lex, in the solar system, really lacks imagination, he doesn't get Elon Musk at all. Well, it's probably, if you're saying that when does the sun boil the oceans? Right. About 500 million years. So is it sad that we never leave because in 500 million years that happens? Is that what you're saying? No, I just think like there are two futures and one future is we're out there among the stars and the things we read about and see in science fiction movies, the good ones are true. We have these starships and we're going to see what other planets are like and we're a multi-planet species and the scope and scale of consciousness has expanded across many civilizations and many planets and many star systems. This is a great future. This is a wonderful thing to me and that's what we should strive for. But that's biological travel. That's cells traveling physically to another location. This is Rogan getting to be all this mushy stuff, right? Yes. Do you think that's definitely where we're going? No. Yeah, I don't think so either. I used to think so. And now I'm thinking more likely less than ever, like almost every day, less likely. We can definitely go to the moon and Mars. Yeah. And we can go to the asteroid belt and we can go to the moons of Jupiter, Saturn, we can even get to Pluto. That'd be the craziest place ever if we colonized Mars and re-terraformed it and turned it into like a big Jamaica. That's where his head is. I think we should. That would be, I mean, imagine. Great. That'd be great. It's potential, it's possible, right? We can turn the whole thing into Cancun. I mean, over time. There wouldn't be easy, but yes. You could just warm it up. Yeah, you can warm it up, you can add air, you can get some water there. I mean, over time, hundreds of millions of years or whatever it takes. We could be a multi-planet species. That would be amazing. We're a multi-planet species. That's what we want to be. Exactly, like air-conditioned Saturn. I'm pro-human. Yeah, I wanted to get to that. I'm pro-human, right? Why is he saying all this? Why does he want all this? Because he's pro-human. And if you watch these, you could watch a lot more. There's a ton of stuff. There's a bunch of stuff. But even when he's talking about climate change, his argument is not the world is gonna end in eight years. He's no Greta. His argument is, ultimately, this will probably warm the planet and this is gonna cause problems. He also says, oil is finite. It might take a long time, but it is finite. We're gonna have alternative energies at some point. Why not accelerate it? Why not reduce the risk? Now, I think a lot of that is rationalization. I think he's wrong about climate change. I think he's wrong about the urgency. I think he's wrong in much of what he's advocated. Somebody said he blocked Alex Epstein. I'm not surprised. I think he takes the wrong view on climate change. But he's not taking it because he hates human beings. He's not taking it because he hates life. He's not taking it. He's mistaken for whatever reason he's mistaken. And his motivation seems to be that he wants to promote human life. He wants to make life better. He wants people to have a better life. And if you're worried about climate change long-term, and he always emphasizes long-term, not tomorrow, then he's for finding alternative sources of energy. I don't know what he thinks about government subsidies and government, all of that. He has said, I think you all saw, I think I showed the video of him saying he doesn't believe in subsidies. Government shouldn't subsidize. He doesn't need subsidies. He has said that. Whether he's being consistent about that, I don't know, but he has said it. And I wish, I hope he is very consistent about it. But I just, at this point, I like him. I like his attitude. I like his sense of life. I like the spirit. Thank you for listening or watching the Iran book show. If you'd like to support the show, we make it as easy as possible for you to trade with me. You get value from listening. You get value from watching. Show your appreciation. You can do that by going to iranbookshow.com slash support by going to Patreon, subscribe star locals, and just making a appropriate contribution on any one of those channels. Also, if you'd like to see the Iran book show grow, please consider sharing our content and of course, subscribe. Press that little bell button right down there on YouTube so that you get an announcement when we go live. Those of you who are already subscribers and those of you who are already supporters of the show, thank you. I very much appreciate it.