 Good morning. Hey, how's it going? Very well. Good. I'm just posting in discord to see if anyone else wants to join us. I probably, I don't think they will, but you know, you never know. The same thing in the, in the BC groups as well one second. Okay. Yeah, I just shared the, the wiki, because it has the right to zoom link on it. I'm going to put in the chat. Good thing if you want to grab it. And Tim is from our team. Hi, Tim. Morning. So far looking pretty similar door did calm call. You good. Hello. Yeah, very well. Thank you. Good morning. So, yeah, I know Sam is out of the office for the rest of the week. I think he'll be joining. So maybe just we do it. Evaluation of kind of what's out there now can move forward. If you attend these more chances to get things done. Yes. Absolutely. I'll take it. So here is the link to the meeting to the actual meeting notes. And as this is a Linux foundation hyper ledger meeting, we are under the auspices of hyper ledger. And here's the anti-trust policy notice. Meaning that this is a public event. So nobody talked about anything. That's supposed to be private. Yeah. Welcome. So what I did is I went ahead and popped up. Discovery questions from kind of previous conversation. And then I was hoping we could, you know, work towards answering them. But what might also be helpful is if we just look at what is. Where we're starting from. So if we go to the hyper ledger website. And we go to, thank you. Yeah. Welcome. So what I did is I went ahead and popped in discovery questions about the hyper ledger. So we'll look at those. Bipers tools. I don't remember where they keep. Find it. But here's, here's hyper ledger in the graduated project. And the description. So this is like the official, you know, description, hyper ledger areas provides a shared reasonable interoperable toolkit designed for initiatives and solutions focused on creating, transmitting, infrastructure for blockchain rooted peer to peer interactions this project consumes the cryptographic support provided by hyper ledger Ursa to provide secure secrets management and decentralized key management functionality. And then here are all the, I guess repose for all the different things that people can start with. Here's country based there. Oh, there's a LinkedIn. Interesting. This goes to the hyper ledger. Okay, actually use number. There's a chat channel there's. Oh, there's an introduction course. Oh right the edX from the Linux foundation. What else is here, develop developer course becoming a hyper ledger areas developer, and then just more things focused on hyper ledger itself. So looking at this, I can absolutely see that there's room for improvement. And there's a page itself. Sorry, if you go to that website link the first thing there. Oh, you get to if you do a search and it's a bit more sparse than what you go there. Okay, so yes. Okay, so here's the here's the description. Here's the announcement from 2019 probably. Yep, perfect. And then here's download the code join the mailing list. Yeah. Discord contribute or just contribute to you. Oh, just the wiki. Okay. Participate in the wicking the working group that's probably the same. Link, I imagine. Yep. Okay. Probably is it the same. Yep. Same. They're time to charm and then deploying deploy areas. What does that get you. Oh, the vendor directory so the vendor directories is, yeah, exactly what it sounds like a list of organizations that have product and market around different projects so you can go to Aries and see that in DCO and DSR I don't think I'm familiar with DSR. DSR have deployed areas. Yeah, new key touch points other the website the wiki probably the GitHub landing page for areas as well. Yeah, for sure. Main read me. Yeah, so here's the GitHub. Here's the read me. Right. I'm not sure if you're interested online peer-to-peer interactions based on decentralized identity but yeah so this. Oh, and then it adds in areas includes a protocol definition tools and reference implications, protocol supports identity rooted in true ledgers and blockchains it should approach this approach to identity is often called self sovereign identity. The key components. Back when it's starting at the announcement, whoever that went. There was a lot of talk about the use of the word wallet and how it's going to be the project will be described. And the only use of wallet is right here. It's called wallety things a very official term. And that was something that was very intentional, because it wasn't just a wallet. That's what they kept that's I remember that they kept saying now in recent weeks when they're talking about, you know, updating the branding and description of the project. There's more talk about wallet being really helpful for people for organizations who are trying to explain what the agent is and what their agent does especially like now that there's like cloud agents and, you know, what's, what's your take on the use and description and incorporation of wallet into the project Alex. I hadn't got down to that level yet. I've been acting it. If I can just steer what's coming to my mind to start things off and then take it as you wish. I think that areas has evolved really quickly. And very technically competently. And there's many things in main different ways. But as you can just see from what you just recap beautifully there is that the descriptions of what areas it's got left behind. With a more technical focus of what areas was. There hasn't been an update to say how can you apply it where they're applying in terms of current things that people are facing. So, one facet this is whether it's wallet or agent, I'll probably lean towards agent we can get into this, or whether I think there's an updating of what it actually is, and does, at every practical level to reflect where it's up to. It doesn't require a blockchain doesn't it's not tied to any don't have to use non credits. There are some basic things that could be clarified and misconceptions addressed in saying what it is and how it can be used. There's almost like new material is updating what is is existing material dated and then how it can be used is new material. So that's like one facet this and then the other facet is there's like a lens of this which is on strategy of how we can best communicate areas to the world because it feels that there's a few ways to go about it as to what people needing right now. And one way that we've discussed is is promoting its flexibility, you can do it for this and you can do that as future proof and it can be flexible in the future for this you can swap this out and you can choose this. Equally, I think some parts of what makes areas valuable and special might not want him why you could swap those out you probably wouldn't want to. And so from a marketing perspective I'm really curious as to which bits we promote the flexibility on and which bits we say no no. These are like some things, some really valuable things we're going to hang our hat on, which are relevant to a lot of discussions happening today. And we just shout about these selection of really great things on the rooftops and make it super clear to people without breaking down barriers and misconceptions or actually advocating a difference it does, compared to other offerings, such as, I know all the privacy preservation options you can do with this stack. It's kind of like a broad where I'm thinking about it and I've got some tales written up some draft materials which have been to a couple of working group meetings, and I got some feedback. And I'm going to start a high level description, but even those feel that they are. Yeah, here we go. They feel like these questions will be this thing I've written. What I wanted is kind of, it depends on what, what is the accurate description because in the working group meeting three weeks ago nobody had the same description twice what areas is. And then after that, whilst it can do all these things and we could talk about all these things, which are the most important that that elevate up to a summary statement that goes on the landing page of hyper ledger that goes on the landing page of the wiki. That's just fully my mind is the same activity how that you led did come wise. Do you have to something similar to get to the areas one, or is it just a strategy of like, how do we, where's this going and how do we position areas in the current market and the current climate. That's why I'm particularly fascinated by because it needs to be relevant at the table discussion right now and all these discussions are happening about exactly what areas could be suited for if they knew about it knew about it correctly. I mean, yeah, I totally agree I think that's a great kind of level to start from is what, what are we, what is the goal and what is what are we trying to explain and what are we trying to, to tell people about areas. A couple of things come to mind one is, I'm immediately thinking of doing like a questionnaire. I think that would be a great way for for developer types. No one's developer types, but to get their feedback, like how like rank these qualities that we should be taught you know that you would want to share with the community from one to 10, you know put them on a slider or something like privacy preserving versus whatever like, or something just like a bunch of descriptions like you know, a non credit whatever like put put a list together and have them like order them of like this is the most important thing. This is the least important thing that kind of thing. So I'm immediately thinking of like how do we get feedback from the community because that's really important. The first thing I'm thinking about is the, the hyperlider technical pack advisory council. They, they give projects, they kind of put projects in different categories graduated incubating and lifecycle and they have qualifications that that move projects from one one stage to another areas is graduated, because one that makes it so strong is it it's diversity of contributors. So it has a lot of different organizations that give a lot of different code that have like it's not just one one organization and if they leave them the whole thing falls apart. I know that like contributions and active, you know, contributors to maintainers is a big part of what's important to the areas community. But there's also that, that, you know, in production importance like we want to, we want to have more organization so I guess I'm thinking about the goal of what this what we're trying to do once we position areas in the market. We want to get people contributing and really active in the community and helping it grow and do cool stuff and, you know, continue on and flourish right, but at the same time we also want business decision leaders to show up, see the value in this project, and want to go, you know, spend their resources and time and energy, taking the project and developing it and implementing it and going to production. So we have goals, but I'm sure there's more there's we want people to know the power of it so when people are in production they can go out to their customers and, you know, and, and, and share the good word about you know areas to the broader world so they can be seen as the, so we can help them, you know, sell and show that the benefits there so I think, looking at the goals of like what we want. And I think the process is now doing really well like some of the discovery questions honestly like where what are the friction points we're seeing today. Like what are what are the friction like why are we having this conversation, like what is the problem right now. And then where, where are we trying to go like what is the goal of what is the communicate who who are we targeting and what do we want them to do. Interesting. I'd assumed that I hadn't thought about the contributor part. I know there's a massive community contributing, and I'd assumed maybe wrongly that as people get on board with what it is and see its value for them. They end up naturally contributing back as it gets in front of people with, you know, with deep pockets and time to commit to these projects because they're using them for their own value. The informally the things I'm seeing as the reasons why is I think a misconception or misconceptions about Aries that's ruling it out of discussions that it's too complicated, which may be valid I don't know, that it requires other technologies as well, which I know those parts aren't true. So misconception of what you have to use to do it to to work with it. So that's one part is this being ruled out as a misconception. And where is that hand holding in housing at the seat of the table if people are, if anyone from a developer up to exact lands on these resources. I think you know, every every word is more than three syllables. It's a wall of text and it doesn't give you a way into solutions, applications, key differentiators. It's not approachable for anyone at any level of hierarchy or technical knowledge, for my mind, to see okay. Where are the where the examples of use. Where are the, where's the crevice behind it was the sense of contributions how do you know how big this is high notes viable for something for a huge project mean all those parts. I think that's not just not misconception and ruling it out it's it's about arriving fresh and like how do you get the summary and the calls knows how to get into this thing. Yeah, I, I, yeah, I, I completely agree. I see those. Yeah, I'll definitely like definite question points because I mean I still like if someone were to ask me the definition of a non creds and we talked about it all day long. Tim and I, Tim breaks blogs about all time and I'm still just like I don't actually understand it on credits. I'm not sure I do either so it's, you know, and it's the same with areas there's maybe go back I think it's the 24th of 24th of May I want to say the working group meeting notes. There are three or four descriptions from smart people who know areas very well, asking what the areas is and there are four different answers. Yeah, it's worth bringing up actually just a reference. Yeah, what, what, what did you say. I want to say the 24th of May up five from where you are. I think it's that one. Keep going down to your when further further further. The area scope what is it right in the middle of the page that it's SSI one person is a protocol that the person says it's a foundation of Indian on crescent.com one person says it's wallet, you know, so there's even there. And that's all fine. It can be all those things. But at a starting point for any level of seniority and technology. What is it. And then we can create flavors of that from these. But it needs to have us that it needs to have some kind of like anchors so how to make it approach we're probably using simple words probably using short sentences. Just like we talked about on Monday. Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah. What's almost like not even just use cases but like components, if for lack of a better word, like that page. So. Oh yeah like this one that so here's all the different repositories so there's a hot Asian Python that's acopi right, and then the. Yeah, the frameworks areas RFCs and different languages. And other ones are like projects that extend it so you've got bifold their areas mobile agent react native. Taking areas and expanding out to, you know, into warland. I don't know many of these. There's the media service that's the companion thing obviously for receiving messages and messages so you can actually have a mobile experience. I know of some of these parts, but yeah how's this fit together and thinking about those landing pages based on those roles. What's the way forward so if you're coming in. And let's say you're a team lead and you think areas of that where you're talking points you you copy and paste out for your presentation. So you're looking to apply using it. Where do you start. Thank you. But where's the ABC, like first watch this, then do this, then here's an example, then you can build this when you're in a where's the 123 for there are some of those on the wiki. But then missing the one glimmer here. And then hyper that just looking at a site refresh I think as part of that refresh, they're looking at highlighting resources based on audience type on the planning page of the project which thinks great. But that's a small piece of this puzzle, which is what is this behemoth of amazing tech. And how can it be relevant to current conversations especially. Yeah, so I mean even, you know the mission goal and areas. I think that's yeah that is that like very much like high level goal but then when we, you know, to number two how do we define and measure success. You know, like we were talking about like making it more approachable sing more implementation sing more people getting involved sing more people onboarded sing more, you know, contributions and implementation sing more you know press talking about it and companies, putting money and funds and resources to developing with it so I think that you know, you know, there's a lot there could be success target audience, you know we sort of talked about that. I know how true it is but I would imagine as implementations come as big players start using areas, they're going to contribute back to it, because there's something to be gained all around it's going to make sense to the communities, and everything else. So I was focused on the, and I haven't talked to anybody about this but I was assuming this, this marketing opportunity is around, and people implementing it and using it. First and foremost, that the contribution would come as a part of a community reinforcing the community aspects of what this is they'd want to contribute back. There's actually a really it's got some style I use for them. But there's a lot of people contributing there's lots of energy around it right now, especially from outside obviously. Yeah. So I'll kind of put deployments and contributions in the same line because with kind of with one stems the other. And then, you know more community involvement like more people on the calls more people like, you know bringing ideas forward more people I don't know, like more voices, and then just more visibility in in the media and you know people covering that what's going on in the community, all that good stuff. Let's see here. As far as, okay so preferred life cycle. What do we want them to do in what order, awareness, you know, education convincing whatever. So this is where I think, you know, coming to the hype I think if you just search. Hyper. Hyper ledger areas the first thing that comes up is their, the page. Yeah. Yeah, so they have, I mean they have top placement. They do a pretty good job. With, in terms of, you know, SEO and advice and all that good stuff because then you can see here's the announcement right there. And then you have the GitHub so if we kind of look at those two places is where people will probably land on first. So just on this question I just assumed that there are mentions of this people are hearing about Aries, maybe I think does he maybe the conference maybe I thought my senses. That's there. And then just you doing now that first landing experience after search to find out more about it is where we're falling down quite dramatically. And with you that these three on the screen right now, the site the work he, the GitHub read me key, key points places that we could focus on. I think, I don't think we're in this, I don't think we're in like a campaign territory to raise awareness I don't think there's like a problem with people hearing about it, necessarily, because we're in a fairly confined space even within the options of what it is it's still a narrow focus I think people that need to know would eventually hear about it rooting around, but we're falling down when they actually reach out to find out more about it specifically. Yeah, for sure. So even if we focus on those two items and then see, you know, if they, if they find us, and then maybe again there's some education, including use cases demo videos, start here videos like helpful things to get them going right like they're not just all the good, all of a sudden going to come to the website and like hit deploying to the races, because it's so hard. I think that the wiki could be a third item in number four. Yeah. I think, depending on the search engine I've seen wiki come up higher. I think developers might be inclined to go there as well so you could almost have the wiki being a third option. And then yes, on the point of the explain the videos there's actually quite a bit of interesting videos and blog post out that there are some points like introductions using areas for X, Y and Z on YouTube and so forth. They're out there and they're relatively recent. And I'm also starting to uncover some interesting blog posts as well that explains some things. We don't have to think we have to be the centralized beyond all this that could be many, it gives me a gathering of great resources out there and making them clearer, maybe in order for people coming in to get started. And it's like on the page, wherever it went, here we go. Like I almost see like you have like a description of what the project is and you have some helpful like kind of get started links but then right away you start like, you know, education or blog, you know, has like blog video demos or something like that and just like clicky click clickable things like right away right at the top, basically to get people. Yeah just just engage with it and educating themselves and looking at what other people are in the community. Even have like an opportunity to have like a button that says like, do you have a blog that you want it that you think would you know be relevant here like I would love for other people to say I wrote a blog or I wrote a paper. I did a presentation at this group or whatever and here's the link to it and they can put it in and then we can add it or whatever and it can keep going. It should be a community, like, you know, maintained generated content. Let's see. So I think more than just the ranking of what areas is I think some of these questions come in the conscious of time here. Some of these questions could form the basis of that. Some of these questions form the basis of that question that goes out to developers, like what are your favorite resources that you point people to. That's, let's see my head off. Okay, it's me and you have. Okay. What are the, what are their favorite starting points, people say hey what's there is all go and check out this video. I'm sure. It's all people top people in the community have that kind of like list of things they use. So there's pretty a few questions without making the question is going to be approachable that developers will just pass it by and go, I haven't got time. Absolutely and I think this is I'm putting it is an action I think this is something that we could like, I hate questionnaires that are in surveys that are too long. Three questions. The first question was like rank these descriptions or you know kind of descriptors of Aries in like in importance order privacy preserving wallet, blah, blah, blah, whatever it is. Like the second one is like list your three favorite links that like you send to people when they want to know more about areas like what do you send them. And what do you think is most helpful. And then we could come up with a third but yeah just like a very short questionnaire that we can put out to the community that would actually like help us gather I think some intelligence that's. Yeah, because I mean I think that you did an incredible job on this, this, this document, but I'd love to just, you know crystal distillate very you know into like what are the action items that we're actually asking for information very much so I try like I said to you, like outside of me I was trying to think, can we get to this description that's close enough and we can refine it, but it turns out there's still fundamental questions about the right angle to take. Yeah, that's, that's, like is it. I personally I don't think the it's incredibly flexible is the winning answer. I think it's about. There are some things it does exceptionally well that may, and I get a sense more and more that the privacy aspects. The privacy angle is a really solid story, for example, that other solutions may not have addressed. So that's, I think there's something to be said for. It's not just everything to everyone is flexible and it's really good at a bc and those could be solution based. If you need to develop a wallet or agent today solution this or it's, you know, vcs for this or whatever it may be. Maybe that's it. It's a it's a it's a complete kit ready to go. So this is why I'm playing it like how. I just came back to your, your hiding my document. I tried description but this is fundamental questions higher up which are going to influence that so we I haven't iterated this yet because it might change dramatically. Based on, especially people that have any knowledge of speaking to potential implementers. They always be in the room and they say, Oh, no, because of this we're not going to go with it. Yeah. Gold, and we need to follow those what's happening. And in the by the points of decision the points of exploration. And, you know, there are. There's sort of open source politics at play as well like there's organizations that give a lot of contributions because it's this aspect that they're really into and then there's another organization who's really involved because it's this aspect that they're really into. And I hope that we can find a way to do right by everyone. And that's why I wonder if you know when we're coming up with like a list of items that we want to have them like choice rank their own ballot whatever it's called but like you know put put them in order let's not put flexible in there let's not put. You know maybe not even complete like I you know let's take some of these sort of like me words that are like, you know what I mean that are not super descriptive. They're helpful like in, you know, as a descriptor for something else. Yeah, they're not you know they're not let's put blockchain in there some people hate it some people love it let's do who picks anything goes oh you know I picked that it's flexible. I was looking I was all day long I was trying to find a solution about you know my chicken farming, you know, software or whatever and it was like oh but I was flexible that's my. Flexible is the is the is the also and also it happens to be flexible. Yeah, exactly and that's so it's not really a super good, you know descriptor. So let's like you know I think coming up with like a list of kind of the more spicy terms that people have opinions about. You know, on a scale of even like scale of one to three. Yes, no or maybe like and then they can go through and click like the ones I love the ones I hate the ones I don't really care about. And then we can, you know, have some data to help inform what the description of the areas project will be based on the contributions and feedback from the community. Yeah, we do have like a. I'm thinking that could be like a table you could say, is this good for developers execs, both or neither or something I don't know for each of those because it's caveats a little bit based on the discussion we had about. Well, who understands the protocols and stuff like this, we can we can circumvent that. I think the ranking of the selling point separate from the wording might be interesting question of our three. The words we use but it's also like, which of these selling points of areas is the strongest in the current, I think it should be caveat within the current market in the current situation. Or for your market, like get them to. I like that. I like that alone. I know, yeah, brilliant. There was somebody on the call that said like, you know, nobody understands areas nobody cares about an agent but when I say wallet they're like, yep, and then other people are like no nobody cares about wallets we're talking about credential exchange and that's more you know whatever. Yeah, in your market, you know which of these so maybe that's, that's up here. Okay, slide. They can speak to their own situation love them. And then they can submit any blogs demos or links like useful. Yeah, videos as well. Yeah, blog links, videos, etc. Yeah, papers. All of it. Paper courses. Open question, do we want to ask starting points or just in general for areas. What do you mean. Do you want to say, when people want to get to know areas and they're starting off use these, or do we want to ask them for useful those things in general do their areas you know that maybe they're quite low level and techie but they're useful further in. Yeah, because they could be offering these as like, Oh, these, this is a demo I see, I send to my customers about my product versus like, when we have new developers that come on board I send it that you know, we send them here. So what are the context of those, those materials is it for something, you know, to explain what is versus newly on board versus. Yeah. So what if we did. Okay, so then we do like two sections right so we do new two areas we do. Maybe like for business development. Yeah, there's needs areas. So what do they show publicly to help drive the value of like what they're of their work. Those two concepts or something about. I want to get in my teeth into this where I start versus one of the key points and how to understand what this is. This is versus where do I start those different stages of one time. Once it's still discovery and decision making the other one is like, you know, onboarding. And then this is more onboarding deployment, like growth, kind of. They have like kind of two sections and then they can like fill in, you know what it is. But yeah I think this would be a good start to put together and like, I don't know like a Google form or something like that. You know, spread it far and wide we can even do a blog on the hyper ledger. And just it helps give visibility because then they'll promote it on their socials and stuff but like if you're in the areas community would love to hear from you like you know fill out our we're doing a community survey kind of thing. So we could do a campaign around just visibility of the survey. It's only got three questions there in 17 parts, but it's only got three questions. It's so easy. So yeah I think maybe working on that would be good. And then let's see here. Well I've got that the bandwidth I can take that was an action unless you I don't mind you the way but yeah that'd be great yeah if you want to yeah put that together. And then we can. There's a call tomorrow but if we kind of tell people what, what's happening and just let them know we had our first meeting and you can see the recording and, you know, look at the notes and all that kind of stuff. And then also we're putting together a questionnaire a community questionnaire to help inform our, our work. And so that'll be available like at the next call or something like that. Yeah we can promote the next call as well so that's like so you can do it. Yeah. Is there anything else we'd want to like just get feedback on in terms of like pain points I think we kind of know the pain points. I think I think it's tied into one of a couple of thoughts do we have a free text, like free text option of the bottom of the questionnaire. What are other things that we could improve. For how we talk about areas, just leave it really open and see where they go with it because we're not doing thousands of responses we're going to get. Oh well we're going to get like six. Six would be awesome. So go out or use your free text just put your thoughts out there. The other thought is how does on that top list we have there like so literally that the choice of words versus what best community, what is what are the strengths of Aries well this was the ranking of the strengths of Aries. And now these are those two separate questions, because one is, don't use the word SSI because it triggers this. The concept of identity is really important. So I think we see if we can we can almost, if we gotta choose the words or we can expand we have one question, and I suggest rather than what about the words we just get into the concepts of like rank these benefits of Aries from highest to lowest. Like it's flexible as privacy preserving it allows you to use multiple frameworks. It's all open standards and open code. I know, just randomly saying yeah. You know I can iterate this when we come to actually looking at it dropped at the question as well and see how it reads. Yeah, oh for sure we can totally pay with it but something like talking about externally what's most helpful and then what you see as a developer what's most helpful. Because those might not always be the same it's like there's the public messaging of it and calling it a wallet and calling it you know. So privacy it's really helpful to customers but internally I love talking about the open sourcedness or talking about credentials or whatever. We have found that even the work like at my company like even talking saying the word credential to somebody who has knows zero about like a business decision maker or government that knows zero about Aries or opens up you know SSI anything. Like oh like a credential like my so you would issue me like a driver's license and like no no no I don't like we don't we're not an issuer we're just enabling the ability to you know communicate data and verifiable ways and they're like. Oh so it's not a credential like they don't have, you know, it's a hard kind of concept to talk about even source. I remember this from coming into this in 2020. And even the words issuer verify holder. They were very strange conceptual words. Yeah. There's a lot of jargon. Now, in the space of implementing solutions even the coming fresh areas I probably get that big up to higher level again you will not see those kind of words. Like you won't see verifiable credentials past a certain point as well. And it's fascinating because it conceptualizes things that most people are used to, but they haven't labeled the most people would say that cards when you want because that is the primary thing but also receipts go in there and other things but it's okay because you know what normally fits so that's easily the word cards, but when they can be anything we haven't got a word to describe that concept. Yeah, like using coin every day. The only thing about like credential in your wallet, most people don't. So we have, we're always tripping over the definition we came back to credential digital credentials are the digital versions of physical ones like your a bnc so they can associate with it, but it's not easy so to that point. So yes, let's look at words we use and what resonates and how I love the idea of having a separate for business audiences and developers to maybe two separate lists or I don't know. Very curious. We can even fill to that. We can even say, we can give them different choices. That's why some words they're not going to say on the letter got the same list they've got to force them into two audiences but say for this audience, these are the kind of things we're thinking what do you think, and then for developers the same. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I just copy and paste them but absolutely I think that makes a lot of sense to move them around like a non creds internal right like how sexy is it to talk about a non creds like if you're a non creds is one of the most important things that both of all like whatever but you're never going to say a non creds to a, you know, business decision maker, like in a picture or something. Totally I mean play with these, play with these words for sure and and when you're doing your draft feel free to add things and move things around and take things out that don't make sense for for either or. But yeah either like a rank choice system or like a one to three click click click you know on what words that they think are more valuable or less valuable or neutral. Something like that I think would be would be great some people get really hung up on ranking things because they're like now these are both important how am I going to do. You know, yeah, if we can just start. Yeah getting a little bit of data from that and then. Yeah, having them submit, you know two sections submit links new to areas and business and then an open text field I think that'd be a great questionnaire for the community. Let me see if I can get a short draft form this week so you can have a look at that we could say something about Wednesday. Great. That would be audio wouldn't it. Yeah and then looking at cleaning up focusing on the website, and then the yeah the GitHub, and then the wiki would be good. Because those are like flavors of the core messages only. Um, the one question I nobody's here, obviously to answer it but who the competitive like who or what are the competitors. Has a non creds aren't w3c compliant. Is that right. They're a separate credential format. Okay. But areas supports both. Because areas for for supports. What's the word I can't even think of it anymore. I wish somebody was here but anyways yeah so like it's not that like a w3c credential as a competitor, because areas does goes a little bit further than the w3 standard as it stands is what I understand. It could be wrong. Yeah, my thing is, yes, is that it's there is solid support for w3c credentials. It is not requirement to use non credits. And that's one of the misconceptions that gets highlighted. Yeah, no you don't you can use w3c credentials. There is another you can use things as well. I think we start making some of the trade offs. I think you start losing some of what makes Aries Aries, and that's what like to tease out from hearing back from the community. I suspect that. Like a lot of the, if you don't use did calm and you can't do any of this communication stuff on going and you can't use a channel for revoking credentials. And some of the rfc is done. I'm guessing there's a whole bunch of knock on effects of not doing that you probably would want to use that. So rather than say you could do it without it, which I think is technically possible. So what is that we should. What's the hill we want to die on with these things like saying it does this. Yeah, if I want to do it. Don't use it. But we think it's important enough to say, while you could technically not use it we really think you should and that should be part of our core messaging for what makes Aries Aries. Yeah, I think that's an important distinction to make that ties back to that. That do three things great thing I was telling you was that the same thing about it wasn't I. I think you about that was like somebody else about that. I'm sorry. I'm doing three things great the guy who started slack. Post about you about a whole bunch of things your product can do. But if you pick three things and say that you do them incredibly well. I think that's probably obviously an elevated pitch to our wow, well, and you can almost hang your head on those. Yes, the things are good. But you don't want everything. I think as we're in the trap right now it does so many things there's so tentatively capable. That's where the perception of complexity comes up that's where I think the lack of focus comes in. And whilst it could be flexible in ways a through Z. And B, but these other ones, they're really cool. And that's what makes Aries Aries. I mean, my first iPod held 100 songs, and it was amazing. What I didn't realize is that this device could hold data, because they're not they weren't they weren't coming out to the market saying this is a data holding device because like who who wants a date I don't know that doesn't mean anything to me like I'm going to buy a dating. But when it's like oh you can put you can put songs on this and oh we added a cell phone we added a camera and now you can take that data and you can do you know like with each sort of additional feature it they focus on the functionality and like what it actually enabled in people's lives. Yeah, they did a really good job of that. When they know those exceptions they know Apple Watch is really going to be great for it to be fitness, but generally read on the applications and I think that's something we should be doing here. It's quite possible that Aries should be described at a high level on the first sense as you read in terms of a use case that applies to 80% of people reading it. Yeah, like we know wallets. Maybe we may maybe was as mentioned in the first sentence for we know. Yeah, because it's like yeah this is you make you make a digital all that can communicate and talk to other digital wallets it's like, and then like you kind of, you know, figure out what that actually means. Yeah, wow that doesn't work for enterprise walls. Yeah, it's okay. That's an agent as well. But primarily as people are thinking consensually, then charge of a wallet to hold verify credentials and do a BNC. Yes it does that and it's ready to go for all these great reasons. So that's I'm thinking the use case maybe part of just how it's applied as a secondary thing, but it might be right up front and how we describe what Aries is right now. I think we should in future topics we should talk about use cases, and then we should go through the repose and understand them have somebody come and like tell us like, go through each of them and give us like a gist of each thing. I think that that list wherever it is this list, like, if ask her does something different than bifold, though, we should have a menu a table of contents for Aries that describes like okay well this is bifold and the. Where is it the other thing anyway you're like framework go is the same thing like here's groupings of repose that are that are helpful with one another, and why they're helpful like what's the use case of well this is good for this instance and this thing is this other thing you make wallets with this other thing you do, you can test your Aries agent against the mobile test harness. So you can do that over here and like, I, if we understood that the, the bits and parts this is more towards I think the developer onboarding process. But having a better kind of yeah table of contents so to speak for the different components and parts and use these cases of Aries. Let's get that down. You make a. Okay. Um, is BDS plus a competitor. No it's a format to do with the credential. Yeah, but it. Oh gosh, cryptography level. Yeah, I wasn't sure the signatures for signing the credentials. Yeah, it is. What was it on the ring things before. Yes, it's that level, it's right down. Okay, so yeah, having somebody to come to talk about competitors I think it's helpful that we can see what other people are comparing Aries to, and like where we, where the wheels fall off, you know, or where how people make the decision to go with Aries and what they really like about it. So you can put out there I know a couple of people have to hand on both those things one for competitors want to explain the repos I've got a couple of names in mind. Yeah, we can put out say hey if you want to talk about this next time I would give more specifics please come to this next working for meeting. If you a know this be know this. Yeah, I mean, I advise. Steve, yeah, the current non brothers, I think either of them would help. I said the current brothers and they're like we're not brothers you perpetuate. And I was like, but it's excellent. The current brother to be brilliant on that side. And then for the repos someone like, like Stephen current knows the stuff back to front and all the flavors, killing every single repo and exactly. It's relevance. Yeah, for sure. And then, yeah, we kind of talked about target audience. Yeah, it's about measuring concern. Yeah. Yeah, so bassist northern northern block is the description he might be a good person to approach. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Wow, I think we got through a lot. We did that's excellent. Okay, that's going forwards and the question now which thing is key to shaping up a core. I was trying to explain someone that in the outcome. There's like a description which hits the middle of anyone. And then we expand up to an executive one and maybe dive deeper into the tech but it's like a middle audience always like a a developer team lead kind of level. We talk high enough business night but you can drop in the technical things to get a sense of how to position it. And that's to use that question there results to get to that and then stretch it and then apply into those touch points. Yeah, for sure. That makes yeah, perfect sense and I guess that the one. The one thing. Thank you for being a scribe by the way I am atrocious at writing and participating in meetings. Yeah, I end up like yeah no I this I thank you but yeah, I like it when other people do it. But oh, I was going to say like the question about what does Aries, what, what does Aries solve for what is it what is the problem that the market is looking for that's like areas that's that's the solution and I know for what we talk a lot about and my company is two companies that are trying to communicate to one another that a direct integration has an atrocious roadmap that's going to take forever it's going to take years before they can actually share data it's a government and a private company it's a private healthcare company and a private something else it's like they, they want to share it with multiple vendors they want there's information some information whatever that is it's access information it's, you know, health you know there's some type of information that needs to be shared with multiple parties, and they need to find a way to do it without to share it without super complex, like, developer roadmaps that will take her and that will never actually be accomplished like that's what we sort of that's our sweet spot at my company, but I want to know like what is it that other people see as the problem that Aries solves for what is the hammer and the nail you know what I mean. Yeah, I think it's a great idea to put that in. Yeah, that could form the basis of how you even write that first sentence. That's all the people facing right now. Like, what is the, maybe not selling points like. It was hard jargon but like, what does Aries solve for. What pain. This is so valuable. It's a leave. Yeah. Aries, what pain point. Okay, we'll just leave it like that. But yeah, what is Aries solve for what is X, you know what I mean. And even one further back what what what what are they facing right now. What we have to find we have to find yes so it's kind of coupled. What people are showing up. We need a solution for this in six months or we does this. I mean we've also found companies that are like my boss said that I need to explore enterprise blockchain and like I don't know what this what what this technology is good for I want to make sure that my team understands the power of it so I'm here to learn. I don't really have a use case. You know, but I know that my boss is like, bring me the blockchain you know that's a middle target segment I was talking about with the court description that hits that bang on. Yeah, that's great. And then maybe that's like, for the risk benefits kind of internal developers. Why are they here. Like what, what about Aries is special to them. Why are they here. Yeah, and so maybe this one is down here. And then you could like rank up or, you know, scale one to three or something like that. Yeah. Ooh, I like that. Maybe call it five questions rather than three. We just ingenious when they're like they started you're like you're 17 minutes from. Yeah. We make the first four pages like really short because 80% of the fifth page we hit them and they're ready invested so we go. Yeah, yeah. That's funny. And then yeah, and then if they don't participate then you know all we can do is offer to the community to participate and share their voice and if they don't then we just keep moving. So today's fantastic. He's got a whole bunch about that we boys needs to talk through and now we can bring specific things that do look at the knowledge. That's great. Exactly. Exactly. Awesome. Okay, well I'm going to stop. Right. And I'll stop recording because I think we're good. Oh, I never had we were never recording. I can't hold. Oh, it's automatically recording. So we'll stop when we end the call. Okay. Well, thank you Alex for your participation today. You know, you have great ways of thinking about it and like those don't remember those did come question that okay this is great a compliment for I break I'm not so good at that framing stuff in some parts, but given the strand I like picking them together as a to make something great the actual content. So I really appreciate what you've done with this and what you're bringing to it. Yeah, it's great. Oh, I appreciate that. Yeah, I sometimes get in the weeds, pretty quick with things and so having somebody that's like, you know, I think we compliment each other. Great. So this is perfect. Yeah. Cool, cool. Okay, well I'll see you tomorrow in the areas working group meeting and you want to lead you want to lead like I just a one minute update on that tomorrow. Yeah, that'd be great. I'll kind of drop the little linked or yeah the link to the notes in the chat for everyone just to like scroll through. And we'll go from there. Brilliant and I'll get the draft of that questionnaire should be this week. Okay, that sounds good. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you. Bye.