 Boom, what's up fam Anthony John center today co-founder of the red man group founder 21 studios 21 convention 22 convention the patriarch convention 21 University and by 10,000 other things on the internet today here at episode 165 of the red man group live here on YouTube Twitter Facebook all kinds of fun places And I'm being joined today by mr. Richard Gran and he was in last episode as well He's a armchair philosopher. I'd call him pretty big-time youtuber He's closing in on 400,000 subscribers famous around the world in some ways and I would also call him an expert on trauma and The philosophy and psychology surrounding trauma and healing from trauma. He's not technically a psychologist or anything like that but in a lot of ways he's way more intelligent and Empathetic I would say then most therapists who are much awoke losers and weirdos Also joining me on today's show is mr. Jack Donovan. He's been on the show a couple times before and he spoke in that 21 convention many times over now. I think five times five or six quite a bit He's also a pretty pretty well-known author for men and a philosopher for men I would call him he's most well known for the way of men but we can get on Amazon and His newest book other books to a more complete beast becoming a barbarian and actually several others But his latest book that you guys will see is fire in the dark He actually gave out a speech We put out a speech a couple days ago finally from his latest appearance at the 21 convention Basically the same title fire in the dark the subtitles a little bit different at the speech But the speech is awesome just came out from 21 convention on 21 studios and beautiful 4k ultra HD check it out And Jack will be speaking again this year. So before I get into the actual show and bring them on Both of these men today these beautiful strong beastly alpha males will be speaking at 21 convention this year Richard's returning he last spoke at our 21 convention in Poland and Jack Donovan You also see there with a lightning weapon of the gods. I'm there coach Greg Adams and many many more So you can go to the link in the description or 21 studios calm to get tickets now They're actually early bird save 1200 bucks and you can bring a friend freeze or the Bogo and you can attend the awesome Patriarch convention as well. That's another event. We have going on at the same time And we got virtual tickets VIP to come with hotel rooms all kinds of good stuff check out the website Check out the speakers. It's gonna be super awesome time when you attend our convention We'll teach you how to be a badass of women how to purge your inner beta male How to become an alpha male how to give women your ultra alpha male toxic masculinity and all sorts of very awesome things As funny as the marketing is I'm extremely professional as Jack has said a couple times over at this point and many of the speakers Our events are super well done and they are the best in the world for men of this type So coming out to Orlando, Florida October 14th through 17th It's gonna be fucking awesome celebrating 16 years of 21 studios and 21 convention events Now without further ado and the endless ad campaign, please tell me welcome to the show mr. Jack Donovan and mr. Richard grinon X Maybe maybe I figured it was like we'll be on say puts out a new album, but it's a different character And it's like he's now X. He's not he's not Richard granny's X. I just saw in the last minute I'm now I've transcended Richard granted and I'm now Maybe he's gonna be in professor X or the man is here. I don't know So how you guys doing today haven't talked to I talked you over, you know tech sometimes I've been talking to either of you in a little while How you guys doing what's new in your life anything you want to share if you work that fan should know I'm I'm very good say your life is good. I'm currently in Portugal. How about that? How about you Jack? How you doing? I'm doing good. I'm just sitting here like Trying I'm trying to Instagram that we're live right now So I can get out there, but yeah, you're about to move right Jack got a Utah to Arizona. Yeah. Yeah I haven't even like made that super public yet. I'm just It's fine, it's fine. It's not like a secret, but you know like I guess I've talked My like best friend here already so that's good because I was kind of like I really want to tell Cuz I'm like like he's my good my best friend here, but Yeah, but yeah, I'm just it looking on the new things and aesthetically it looks like where I should be Okay, you know, you know, it seems like a really cool place. I'm excited about that I also have a guy who has been a reader of mine who modeled my rash guards and stuff Friend he's a black belt down there. So I can go down there and just roll right into his gym and Some looking forward to having you know connection to some some dudes already. So it should be good. Cool. Yeah Yeah, you have family out there at Richard or no California California, but whenever I go to America to visit I usually do seminar in Arizona and then I enjoyed going back and telling the Californian time much better Arizona is a state Why would you choose Arizona like just better better than here? I think a lot of Californians are moving to Arizona They call it. What do they call them? There's like an liberal locus Someone made a term to the day I saw between refugee and like liberal or Democrat like liberal g All these people basically all the liberals fleeing California to Texas and Florida and Arizona They're coming here. They're coming to Portugal. We've got thousands of Californians Specifically Los Angeles. I was moving to Lisbon. There's a whole industry built up in Portugal now just Introducing Californians to life in Portugal. It's it's it's crazy, but it could be a good sign I think you know when people really hit threshold and they're like we're just gonna rage quit from this nonsense I think that's a good sign, right? Although they bring all that California money That's always the problem because California money is bigger than other money for some reason and like everywhere In America where that's happening. It's basically like all of a sudden how housing like I know people who have money Who are like trying to buy a house and they get outbid by a hundred thousand dollars. Yeah, like just cash They're like not even like loans just cash. Here you go California is crazy for cash really. I mean, yeah, like if you've made it there You just get more money than everybody else. Yeah, yeah Love love big money in California for sure for sure damn Well, we'll look at we can let Jack do his Instagram thing real quick Okay, yeah, I've done that plenty times in the show. I'm like playing on my phone I try to retweet something and I'm like Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm paying attention guys But let me actually start let me start with Richard today So, you know Richard, you know that Jack's work is heavily focused on basically masculinity the history of masculinity cross-culturally The mythology surrounding it between different religions and creeds and stuff It's fucking awesome not to blow too much smoke up his ass But I really really admire the work that you do with it for Richard I want to ask you in your view What is their relationship between masculinity and a jackdown of any incense or otherwise and mental health? So masculinity and mental health. What is what is the relationship between the two? Oh? Yeah, great question. I mean Let's I'm gonna talk about Jack in the third person which is which is so I I carry So for the mental health issue So I carry a sort of an archetypal Jack inside my head when I'm looking at certain situations because I'm pretty familiar with his writing and and his take on Archetypes and symbols and masculinity as it pertains in the world. So I'll always look at stuff and go, okay What is what is the most? Stripped down Way of understanding symbolically what's going on here in terms of a masculine polarity and there's a film recently I don't know if you've seen it yet. Jack the Northman No, I haven't seen it yet. I recommend it because It's a it's a good movie, but aesthetically I think you're gonna enjoy what they're trying to do I'm not entirely it's the same director as the lighthouse I don't know how successful it was but as an effort to offer as like a pared-down version of a sort of a Primitive masculinity a primal masculinity that was still tribalistic that was still mystical that was still connected in and at ceremonies and Found meaning in that which could not be just dropped into that post-enlightenment Western mechanical model It's a good movie from that point of view and I think you'll appreciate it So when we're looking at mental health for me now as far as the the issue of masculinity is concerned I'm very interested in the Let's call it the Donovanian perspective, which is how do we bring back? the element of it that is unconscious sort of Jungian pre-verbal because I think I think it's One of our big mistakes as a group collectively culturally is that post-enlightment Mechanistic view of the world we lost so much as Nietzsche decried You know God is dead and we have killed him what festivals We need now to clear the blood from our hands and the festivals that were engaged in are killing us The festivals are Instagram the festivals are social media the festivals of this performative woke bullshit That's all guilt. That's all guilt for killing God is is is my position on that now I hope people understand. I mean I mean in the most symbolic way possible I know that for example Jack talks explicitly about the murder of heroes and gods and the fire in the dark Elsa and your speeches to start interrupt. Yeah, no, and I think So when we talk mental health because that's that's like a buzzword doesn't he put inverted commas fucking mental health And I'm like I am Tired I'm fatigued with hearing about mental health because everything is mental health Like if I say something that somebody doesn't like they come back to me and they'll be like well You're a you're an advocate for mental health So therefore do as you told or the target of of anything you just said They're suffering with mental health. So don't say that and it's do as you told So I think like we've got to get back to something that is before all this bullshit and all this stuff That is probably just an effort to create content and I don't just mean in the internet age content stuff a story and narrative Stuff content that occupies our minds that actually should have been filled with a kind of a quiet reverence for what already is in The absence of space. We're creating shit. We create shit movies now We create garbage music now and one of the reasons why is the creative Vessel is just full. It's constipated with a constant influx of other people shit and garbage So the stuff as far as it goes as to answer answer this as best as I can Coming back to you said the the the jack donovan perspective of things I think the key is is in the simplicity and in looking for a non A non-western we shouldn't be embarrassed to say I don't want a rational explanation for everything Some of these things are irrational and jack will do that. He'll say I like this because it looks cool And I like the way it fucking makes me feel and people can either go. Well, that's ridiculous. I'm not doing it Or yeah, I vibe with that that means something to me It should mean Something to every human being you start as a connection with their own humanity the last thing I want to say on it There's a martial arts instructor. I follow for years Masaki Hatsumi he teaches ninjitsu And it's an old lineage and it's probably more about preserving a tradition than really fighting to be quite honest with you But he's a good writer and one of the things you wrote one of his books says There are things we do in practice that you do not need But you will find in life that you actually need those things that you do not need back to symbols back to ritual back to These things we think we don't need that are actually critical To feeling good you want to call it mental health or being in alignment or whatever it is We need these things back. We lost them and we must reclaim them because we're dying mentally and spiritually without them Yeah, what comes to mind immediately is like american culture being just so completely fucking lost The average american I don't know how bad it is in britain. I'm sure it's similar to a degree But it's just in america. It's like we have there's no The american culture has been under attack and is really dying and it's not just movies and stuff It's even simple stuff like food, you know holidays everything's in our tech Is it okay to be a white heterosexual male anymore? No, you're evil toxic bigot. You're gonna die You deserve to die. You deserve to be tortured in hell for thousands of years like It's really good. It's really good out of control. Yeah, even that would be enough exactly. Yeah Well, one of the things I talked about recently was um, I gave a speech and I'll probably elaborate on it at the 21 convention in the fall here Is I think that masculine men stopped making art Yeah, to a great degree. I mean, we you know, like there's this weird thing, especially in america I don't think as much in britain and australia Because you know, like we have to import our actors, you know to play our heroes from britain australia because american men aren't even allowed to do drama Because it's gay, you know, like so, you know, like But I think in all the cultures. I think that once women moved into the space Of creativity and all that kind of stuff And and the feminine men moved into that space then masculine men moved out And they literally stopped creating things and so what we're seeing is really really a feminine men and women making culture for us And surprise We don't like it, you know, it's not the culture that we want. It doesn't connect with us And and so really to correct that it's not just like criticizing hollywood and like you guys are doing it wrong It's like well the wrong people are doing it And and the people who don't really have any connection to their own masculinity or whatever And so like they're just doing what you would expect them to do And so to fix that you really have to inspire men To be like actually this whole 5000 years of culture You men created that, you know, like men created all the beauty in the world basically And the idea that we shouldn't be doing it is insane And so like I think we need to get men creating things again And that's that's a very long game, unfortunately You don't like like oh well, I should just hurry up and be Michelangelo tomorrow You know, that's you can't really do that that takes you have to acquire skill and go through a processes to do that But we need to start that and make it okay and make that part of what we do And that's something tanner and I both talk about a lot. I mean he he gave a speech recently about like You leave a concept of a male beauty And like just everything that is beautiful is not necessarily want something you want to have sex with He's one of there's one of the points that he was making He's like a tree can be beautiful But it doesn't mean you want to have sex with it and people get really confused about that like we can say like you know Ideas of like this can be a beautiful thing like any you look back in the epics and so forth They're like he was an incredibly handsome man. He was a he was a beautiful man. And that's why everyone followed him you know like it was part of Just acknowledging that was okay And we went got to a point where we can't acknowledge that we can't make art We can't do anything and then we just we get mad that all the art is you know effeminate garbage And so we need to yeah, I think reconnect with that and and like uh richard was saying you know like these Something that can't be explained in like a bullet point on twitter as a scientific fact Uh is still okay to connect with yeah a beautiful idea It is still okay to connect with and it doesn't have to be like Whereas you know, you don't have to have snopes guy coming and be like well There's really no verification for that and there's three logical fallacies on that, you know like uh We have to exist outside of that realm Definitely I've seen to speak on a twitter by the way in tanner. I've seen tanner. I think talking about this recently past few weeks We basically sexualized everything That's beautiful or even should be beautiful. It could be beautiful Whether or not it is due to the woke the woke garbage that we live in this swimming really Is a separate matter But yeah, I use that's really a point and then also it reminds me too tanner being a style guy like men The art and culture isn't just effeminate garbage even the way we dress is effeminate garbage It's it's universal to the to the kind of environment we exist in right now The matriarchy has taken over and everything is just getting retarded and cancerous Yeah, yeah, what what the speech I gave was kind of like that because of A lot of the things that men who actually care about being masculine. They're in a retreat mode And like basically the realm of masculinity got smaller and smaller and smaller Uh because women started taking over more and more areas and so men were like, well, women are doing that So I don't want to do it. Women are doing that. I won't do it. And so I just moved into this And kind of the man cave is what I used to talk about it Is because because that's this tiny little cultural space that men are allowed to have so like What that's the kind of stuff tanner talks about is like well, you're only allowed to wear your band t-shirt and your cargo shorts Because like you're afraid that if you do anything else like people will look at you And like flip-flops and shit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, although, you know, I like to fuck with tanner because I'm like You know, I do martial arts. So I wear cracks all the time and that triggers him to like But they're the correct thing for Yeah, it reminds me we're talking about if I was tweeting about I don't know a week ago a couple days ago And it was kind of hyperbolic, but also there's an element of truth to it This is kind of how I usually communicate on twitter anyway And I said that the the man is fear is really america's and I believe it though Like it's it's funny, but it's also serious The man is fear in a way is like america's last stand last hope for masculinity in my view Because it's still a dominant dominantly by far male space. It's controlled by men. It's founded by men It's led by men. It's been built by men. It's created on a daily basis by men Almost everyone is a man his male, you know, not not a non birthing person like a man At least you should be a man, right? There's a lot of beta males too, of course For sure, but but that's and I think also though This is why mainstream is so unnerved as they keep bumping into the man's fear Whether it's makeleman great again or the red pill documentary a couple years ago or kevin samuels Recently blew up, you know huge and then he died of a heart attack or something a couple days ago Um, he was working he was talking consistently to major rappers and you know celebrities and stuff But they're also I think the feminists and stuff were terrified by the man's fear because that's why they keep like secret service Did a report just recently they published on the man's fear and like this is a habitual fucking thing that keeps happening But basically it's it's a space not controlled by women Like there's no the the influence of feminism on the man's fear controlling it is like Basically, it's functionally zero And there's very little in american culture and our western culture Where that's the case because everything has been invaded by feminism explicitly or women more generally and then men retreat from it And then it's you're left with nothing but fat beta males and karen's running everything Even politics is like that. I mean every of the school is like it's just it's a total shit show Yeah, well, I mean it's It's part of the the mimeplex of ideas that are not in the slave narrative Um, you know because obviously that's the that's what we're seeing everywhere is like, you know Here are 30, you know the ways the proper ways to be a slave And uh, yeah, and that's obviously what's wanted. That's exactly what richard mentioned a few minutes ago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, here's here's here's how to be a slave and uh If you're not, you know doing that then uh Like you're gonna be targeted You know like and they're just waiting for like you you know something to go wrong or For them to like target that group and and socially You know, you know stigmatize it and and actually and and you know like actually like go after them legally as you know, I mean like I'm on uh, I'm on a list. I know it because I came back into the country and they Pulled me aside in immigration or whatever and like, uh, so are you on the internet jack donovitz? Yeah You know pulled me aside and gave me some questions, you know, because I'm on the naughty list and uh, you know, so Everyone's going to be targeted who's not on pro slave You know, I mean, uh, they've done it to a lot of people. I mean, uh, you know, like the madison callthorn I don't know what was going on with him, but like they just kind of crushed him recently Uh, you know anyone who's not like in the You know the republican democrat, you know that collective that just you know Makes war and works for fiser Uh, you know anyone who's not in that they're going to go after, you know, and uh, so You know like what well, ila musk where he has a like sexual harassment. Boom amazing at acute an accuser appears Even even even tesla recently or yeah tesla spacex got removed from some important list like stock exchange. Yeah Yeah, I saw that 100. Yeah, it's like wow that that was hell of the timing on that's incredible. Like what a coincidence Yeah, yeah, yeah Um, uh richard, I want to ask you a follow-up question. I'm earlier question So I asked you about the relationship between masculinity and mental health Um, I didn't intend to include any quote crap of that. I meant it, you know, genuinely, of course No, I I know you did. Yeah, it's just it's just I want to put a marker in the conversation because I'm I'm sure you've experienced it as well. Well, yeah, okay hashtag mental health. I could have just said that We all know what that means and it's fucking so irritating I like the way you framed it though as a bullying tactic It's a way to put you back on your little your little slapbox get back on the plantation boy Get back get back on the plantation that that's the whip crack. That's and that's that's the shame the humiliation the guilt tripping You'll see it in the comments here. You'll see it in there You see it everywhere and I'm like, who's doing this? Who's policing other slaves? What good little slaves we are that we police each other We don't even need masters here because where the slaves and where the crop as well It's such a desperate situation we find ourselves in. I mean, I mean you said to me last time Why are you so much more outspoken now? And I'm like because I really don't think there's much time left that this is this is bad and the uh, The the the future of this is is bleak very very good. This is why you guys all we all have lightning on us I Mean I have to say like I said, uh, like I wanted to make my video picture more more serious But like when I first saw that you said it to me, I was like, finally someone sees me the way I see myself Yeah I'm protecting myself correctly There's a real there's a reality to it though that you know when I started my company in my event 21 convention It was a 2006 2007 the world was a different place the culture was a different place The hostility against men and young men was way less than it is now and it still existed And so it didn't just pop out and didn't just spring up out of the ether out of nowhere But it's it's it's not just gradually but it's exponentially increased And we see that now with will smith and johnny depth stuff and me too crap me poo hashtag me poo The whole you know the recently the disinformation board that got dissolved But that was the thing for a couple weeks there whatever they're trying to build a lot of that was actually going to be targeted at misogyny You know misogynistic ideals on the internet Oh, yeah, I didn't talk about that even since day one in the uh alleged divide administration Like they want to target. That's one of the main components to shut down misogyny It's like holy shit these people you can't they want to Officially use the government to neuter and castrate any kind of criticism of women At all and just reframe all of it as abusive misogyny and hatred. It's like this is fucking crazy They want that the administration wants ownership of all criticism. They want ownership of all criticism They want to be the ultimate authority on who may be criticized and receive zero criticism themselves They're megalomaniac psychopath scumbags. What a demonic entity that fucking administration is awful That's that mental health This is this is the rich red. I love this is the rich who we need. Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree completely I mean, you know, you can't I I feel like it's when people like actually talk about it like it's Biden Or like I feel like I'm talking to children, you know, like, I mean, obviously there's people behind that Are the the people who are I mean that's people behind that confused puppet that they make run around and like do stuff Or The teleprompter people teleprompter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, whoever's running the yeah the teleprompter people Uh, that that could be the name for the conspiracy like theory around them the reptilian teleprompter people But uh, yeah, I mean whoever's obviously in charge of all that Um, the group of people or whatever the network of people, um, you know And you know just obviously Probably just people who have vested interest Really and uh things being exactly as they are and they're like we're on the good side of things. So we yeah, let's keep making money Um, and uh, yeah, it's it's it's it's very it's very bad. You like what they're doing. It's it's obviously complete control Um is yeah over everything and it's just weird the way Like like I always wonder about like reporters I think it's elderly elderly elderly abuse too. Like Joe's an old man. Like this is a senile old man This is abusing the elderly. Yeah. Yeah, I think I think I've posted about that a couple times like Like like remember that time we all participated in elder abuse for four years Yeah, you know Because yeah, it's it's I mean whatever bad shit that he's I mean, he's definitely a bad dude Uh, but uh, now he's just like a tottering idiot, you know like bad dude And uh, it's it's mean I don't know what they're doing to him. I'd still I'd still happily watch him like say prosecuted uh, but uh Whatever I almost had something spicy and I was like oh like prosecuted uh But but yeah, I mean it's a bad situation and and uh, I was saying that reporters and stuff I'm like like at some point when you went to school to become a reporter you still thought that you were You know getting the scoop You know like you're getting the scoop like you're getting you're getting one on the man You're like unveiling the secret and now it's like all these people like they just totally let go of that They because they know that they're not doing that. They know that they're literally writing propaganda It like here's what you will write and here's what you're doing it and there's no reporting It's all puff pieces all like here's what you like Here's the narrative. It doesn't matter what you do or like whether it's true or not You're just gonna write that And that's why I always say they're like worse than actual prostitutes instead of But in dirty dicks in their mouth they put other strangers words in their mouths since it's worse Well, they call them uh, prostitutes. I think it's the name prostitute. Oh, okay I like that. That's good. They're putting one of satan's multiple dongs in their throat Absolutely disgraceful swallows at the black worm jism of the devil And you said before Anthony that um That there's a there's a hostility towards men. I think uh towards masculinity is I think is what you said I think now that's escalated to a morbid hysterical terror. So if there is any sign of authentic Unbothered unattached expressions of masculinity found but the few places you can find them because they're rare The response is visceral and it's hysterical Like this person must be stopped from what from the doing them the man the male of these pappy Look, he's happily independent. Oh my god And I look at this and I'm like this is what we were told Drove like the inquisition and the witch burnings was a terror Of femininity of female sexuality of female beauty. There's terror this tyrannical I must crush and destroy this force. It feels exactly the same and it has that same knee jerk religious fervor Where people will go all the way to the end. They're not just going to attack masculinity and then go That yeah, that's enough now. They want it gone Off the face of the earth because they really in their delusion believe it's like an existential threat Yes, I'm like you only exist because you were a sperm You're fucking knit wet because of heterosexual union between a man and a woman. That's the only reason you exist But nope, we weren't rid of it. So I I've come to the conclusion. I'm pretty pessimistic these days This is a this is a the essentially like a suicide cult Against humanity. They have suicidal ideation against humanity. They're so full of self loathing They've come to the conclusion that the world would just be better off without us Yeah, I mean it's it's definitely There well, there's the transhumanist element of it Uh, which is a really big thing, um, which I've been aware of for a lot a long time But now it's just very in the present because you know, that's the whole Gender doesn't matter when we become become computers. I feel is the the the the telos of that Uh, you know, like because they're these people who like just live online basically and they sit me in their cheeto dust with their like, you know That whatever mountain do red zone and you know, whatever just do programming and computers and all that stuff and uh Yeah, gender and all those things really don't matter to them because they're just handles And they can be whoever they want to be and that's who they mean They don't have the the burden of having of proof of having to and you see that with so many onons, which I I am around onons so much. I'm like because I've run my mouth in life. I have consequences for that And uh, you know, like anons come out. I can say whatever I want and then I can just change my mind and like become a different person I am like I don't have that luxury and that's not really what courage is You know I speak truth to power as an anon doesn't mean anything Now you you put your balls on the line, man Like you put your face your name like everything You know all of us do because we're here and these are our faces Um, you know, like we we can be targeted. We are human. We can be like smeared. We can be anything and and so Yeah, I mean But these people, I mean that they are they're more happy or they think they're more happy In this online environment where they're they're just part of a computer and they're they're like an anime character You know, is there they're or no, they're they're a greek statue. They're greek statue. Yeah, I mean the people we're talking I'm talking about are definitely greek statues, but like, uh, but yeah I mean the the people who really want to change their gender and all that kind of stuff I mean, you know, we're dealing with the statue guys who are in one Camp of that really and then there's also the other camp, which is like they're just yeah the people with you know, like pillows of like, you know, animes and stuff like that who just like You know, like waifus or whatever And uh, those are the people who like everything would be better for my Consciousness was just uploaded and and I would just I was just in the computer forever And I wouldn't have this fat disgusting body that I have to carry around to the grocery store to get my chinos And uh, you know, like I I could just have them. Well, I mean, I guess you just uber x that now You can just live in the computer and that's the dream That's the dream of these people and I think that we're being run by these to a certain extent by these millionaires These billionaires who that's kind of was there at earring too. I mean, don't you think like bill gates once is Is uh, you know consciousness to be uploaded to the computer I mean, that's I mean he's he's been a nerd since he was a little kid. Of course he did You know, like that's That's what these people want and they want to transcend humanity And you know, like go ahead Are you saying that people who fundamentally failed at life for demanding that we all join them in there In their retreat from reality because it's too painful for them to deal with and we have to go with them Is that what you're saying? I feel like that might be what I'm Yes, exactly. Yeah, I mean well, I mean that's Yeah, something I've said recently like a bunch of times is like, you know, like the whole toxic masculinity thing is like The real toxic people are the people who need the whole world to change so that they can feel better Yeah, like like you we're not really like oh well I am upset with the fact that there are dudes I was talking to a friend about a mutual Aquaintance the other day and he's just one of these dudes who's always been kind of a gimp You know, he's a kind of a you know, like just physically not You're like competent just not competent physically and you can do work to change that I mean, doesn't you know, you're not going to change into you're not going to change into chat thundered cock No matter what you do really if you you're depending genetically where you're at, you know But you know, you can make strides in that and and work on it But the tendency of people guys like that is to lash out Against the the jocks or whatever, you know, like they have these daddy issues with these guys And they want to lash out at them because they feel It's so obvious that they they feel You know insignificant compared to them like it's all all about insecurity But you know, these people tend to be very very smart, you know This particular guy we were talking about is very articulate and he'll do whatever he can to use all his like intellectual powers To snipe at this other guy You know and rather than working on himself and realizing like hey This is just one side of my personality that I need to bring up To match the smart side You know, they'll just they just want to kill that guy So I think so many of these people that we're dealing with whether it's the, you know, blue haired lesbian You know Trans person or whatever Or you know vegan, you know, like there were the regular, you know, just you know, like nerdy dude um, you know, they have this big chip on their shoulder about men Because men are a threat to them and make them feel bad and if if everyone if there was no Chad thundercock or whatever then then we would all be fine We would have no one would no no one would be a specter of greatness Above us that like oh you can do things and and uh, you know Uh, you're physically competent and and uh, you know, like you have this heroic aspect to you Uh, they they hate that because they're not that, you know Well, the reality is though if there was no Chad thundercock's in the world alpha males pureblitz like us Uh, people would starve and people would die. This is the reality of the world's like Someone mentioned I think it was Richard. I think it was Richard, but uh, you know, yeah, it was Richard You know, you you were the product of hetero your your dad fucked your mom Like basically like toxic masculine and you got injected right into your mother That's a that's pretty good This is what it was a cisgendered hetero normative experience It was actually a criminal act Anthony. I'm the product of a criminal He was white when he did it as well Oh He was fucking while white Those are extra charges So What also what also came to mind though because you're a dirty Brit. You lopster back Is my but it's out. We're coming back to take it back for the queen Well, this is this is this is real though because My country came in my view from for basically not only masculinity But what today would be considered toxic masculinity My country was founded on violent revolution We tried talking to the king and to the parliament and all that for a long time It didn't work and then we started shooting you or whatever who shot first like the details of it Ultimately it was masculinity that created america. It wasn't femininity. Even the woman played important roles All the founding fathers had mothers Uh, many of the men who fought of course had wives and families But it was men by and large by by a mile who created america They fought for it and they died for it. So it's masculinity that built it So it's like if they get rid of masculinity, like, where do you think this all goes? Who all does good? It's just genocide and death ultimately. Well, well to be fair um The masculine men founded every country Like I mean britain was founded by warrior kings, you know, like all these countries originally were the In such that they exist to mean like charlemagne Well, you know, like across france and like all these people were All these nations and their history were founded by warrior kings. I mean all the monarchies Whether they became weird and degenerate over time from inbreeding or whatever. That's a different thing but like they uh, they they were all originally The you know created by chads. They're all created by warrior kings who went and slaughtered people You know, like it's a to to create, you know a new Place for their particular people And uh, you know, so like all countries are created like that. Iran. It's great. You know, like again all all these all these great nations It reminds me of what michael foster says that patriarchy is inevitable In a sense that masculinity is also inevitable because that's where your country like you're saying it's where your country came from That's ultimately where it's going to go One way or another would you get invaded or you didn't take over or like whatever? Although the scary thing because we're on the transhumanist page is like, you know, like Although we were all, you know products of you know heteronormative sexual activity um That's you know, we're The the cloning and test tube baby thing is already here You know, like it's not that far away. They don't you know, they they will just like Makes us up in a lab or mix mix whatever slave that they want Up in the lab, you know, I mean because that's really where where that goes And that's where it gets really scary, you know, like, you know, that's yeah It's such a it's such a weird thing because you can't stop technology Um, you know, like being a ludic doesn't work. I mean, I was kind of messing with ai art the other day Which is like just an abomination But at the same time like it ain't going away. It's already happening So like it is what it is and so, you know, we have the same thing with You know all this this reproductive technology that's going to happen Uh is uh, you know, how do they create their matrix slaves? You know, like, oh, well, we just mix them up and uh, I mean, this is just what we're dealing with the stop gap Like right now they'll just inject us with whatever to make us slaves And then that's just until they get the like genetic programming figured out You know, like that's you know, it's kind of it's scary stuff Yeah, we live in wild times. I mean, no doubt, you know, it's one of the best times in history to be alive But also easily the most bizarre and orwellian like yeah technology has enabled so much productivity and wealth and happiness and freedom and it's also enabled like the worst of tyrannies and in ways that are Evil extremely evil very evil like this is getting really sick. It's gonna out of control like faster like unbelievably fast Yeah, and coveted I think the kufid stuff and the you know, the forced uh zombie jabs and stuff and Now the cloning technology and the matrix we're all going to get plugged into Yeah, yeah, it's getting pretty well. That's the problem with nerds is that you know, like All this stuff seems like a good idea to them when it starts It's like that gandoff quote like even wizards cannot see l n's Uh, you know, they the law of unintended consequences with this stuff I mean, I mean, I'm old enough to remember when the internet started You know like and we had getting on and dial up and all that shit And uh, it's like it's going to be amazing Everyone's going to have access to all this information and it's going to be so productive and everything's going to be so cool And now it's just people sitting on twitter bitching it bitching it celebrities And you know like because human nature hasn't changed It's just you know, like we're they're going to make it for whatever. It's you know, so All these technologies that seem cool Uh can also be used to enslave us In an unfortunate way I really I really think um To the to the technology point. There was something I went to say before and then I forgot it There's something to do with the way technology is converging with hard core exploitative consumer capitalism And then what you said like the the the nerdish desire to withdraw from the world To withdraw from the world and to and to only seek safe safety That leads inevitably as Anthony just said to a kind of a matrix scenario and I I don't say that That's not hyperbole. I literally think before we die. We'll see pods in people's houses It'll be for the environment. It'll be for your health. You can play video games in there, but there will be People will be queuing up to get in there and have sex with their favorite virtual partner or whatever and I think we've got to remember that that is You know, there's toxic masculinity which is bullying tyrannical and torches and genocides, but there's toxic femininity Which is boundary breaking it's smothering It's the archetype of the smother mother the matrix matrix is a word that means womb these pods are a womb And it's a way of we can't masculinity is yang it goes out it goes out into the light Absolutely, and femininity is yin it withdraws into the dark you need both you need balance They can both be good. They can be noble. They can both be bad and toxic This movement towards in and safety is bad. This is toxic femininity This is the archetype of the smother mother taking over the entire culture And so when we're saying the only route out is masculinity I think it's worth like just put in that point there like because we as individuals not as a collective Where will be individuals with as part of a collective but an individual level we must go out We must take risk We must be in the cold air and go out and do things where you'll pick up scars and you'll get bumped and you'll You might lose an eye or whatever it is Because at the other end of that polarity is a little pod a little cave that you stay inside of and you're completely safe So it's that movement away from Psychologizing everything from having safety be the top priority having fairness being a top priority Well, the safety and fairness aren't good, but They can't be the primal values of a culture that hopes to expand When safety and fairness are the top priorities of culture that culture will recede it has to go into recession It can't expand like that. I just wanted to get that off my chest Yeah, absolutely. I mean I kind of bringing you back to the the psychological symbolism of all that with you know becoming A man is always an escape. It's a differentiation from the womb Like, you know, we Everything that has to do with becoming a man is about like differentiating yourself from This thing that you came from Yeah, you know going out into the world like you were saying you're going out You we have to go we have to literally have to go out to become men We can't like stay in the safe space because the safe the ultimate safe space is death Really, uh, but the ultimate safe space beyond that is is the womb and that's like that's like pre-life And so that's where everything you're in the womb and you're in the mother and you know Whereas women are always kind of attached to that because that's kind of part of them The big psychological thing for men has always been like oh, I have to differentiate myself from that How am I different from that? And go out and find that and and by taking action and so forth But if you know these the pods, you know, what you're talking about are really just, you know, like you said wombs Uh that they're like, uh, let me let me stay in mommy's own for forever Um, and that's that's really Yeah, it's it's it's really sad state, but that's obviously that's You know, they this death cult, you know, like kind of you're saying, I mean if I can dunk on christianity for a second, um like I know we're we're we're the triumvirate of doing that. Uh, but I mean, I really think that what we're dealing with is just woke 2.0 Um, I think christianity generally I think of his woke 1.0 Um, in the sense of it's uh, you had all these tribal cultures throughout europe And they all had different they were all different, you know, like they were all at war with each other all the time Uh, then they all had their own gods and their own like things and you know, they were all in different um, you know different moral perspectives and whatever and uh, they would have gone They would have been in war with each other for forever, you know, but uh You know what christianity provided is is what when you talk about anthropology Uh, if you want to unite tribes of people that aren't related to each other You come up with a super overarching narrative in which they are still part of the same tribe And you make them related to each other in a different way. So you do the well, well, we're all children of god And like so we're all children of the same god And so like by having that you can unify these these other tribes because see we're all the same We all came from adam and eve. We all came to the same place. So it's this narrative that makes us all one And uh, and that's that's been really good for civilization in the sense that like, you know Because otherwise you would add tribes of like 300 to like a few thousand people like just warring with each other forever across europe And uh, but if we're all one we're all part of, you know, the lords kingdom Um, you know, we can all be we could all be in the same society But uh, you know with the niche in death of god As you know, you brought up earlier, you know the idea and really Protestantism because really that's that's when that all broke apart Was, you know, like the catholic church they had they had a lock on it that we had a lock on truth This is this is what truth is and this is this is where it comes from But that breaks apart and that broke apart with martin luther or whatever Um, then it starts to fragment and we've seen this big fragmenting process to the point where you know The niche and thing of god is dead because no one can agree on who god is anymore what he believes And and that's where the niche of men the christians get super triggered by niche But uh, really he's just like no one can even lack of consensus is what happened And so there's been this big lack of consensus whatever and woke 2.0 Which is the woke culture that we're doing with now is like no, we're all one again Everything is that's why it's so religious you have to be on the same page and say the same thing and repeat the words And like we're all part of the same culture and we're it's bringing us all back into like the the fold Again and you know the masculine thing is obviously not on that page because that's that's a problem because it's independent well, the irony thing the irony is too that they Woke is these people think they often claim they're atheists and stuff But really this is that feminism and woke and whatever is their religion They have saints. They have priests fow chi floyd, you know saint floyd like all that shit Oh, yeah, these people are it's a it's a real functional religion and they're just oblivious to that Oh, it's the most religious thing in the world like the the uh, you know, like just say the words say the words, you know Like yeah repeat the words because so many of these things. I mean when people say make their their, you know, uh Yeah, it's something like articles of faith or whatever like say like all right Like those signs that say like we believe in science and that genders are All valued all those political signs that they have that's that's a list of articles of faith Yeah, uh, this is what we believe well here. Here's what's amazing over and until you really believe in you know It's almost like it's like a if I can make up a term like a super religion Because it not only is a religion for them and this new thing that they can all attach to if they were Atheists or secular or whatever It's even invaded religions like Christianity all the denominations even the Mormons have the Mormons have feminists The Catholics have feminists the Protestants have feminists I'm I don't know if you've seen but there's been a lot of pushback against the patriarch convention this year a lot Way more than usual. It's like the fourth year. We're doing it It's never gotten much heat now It's getting heat because there's a bunch of Christian feminists Which is like an oxymoron in a way who are aggressively anti patriarchy and they are triggered to shit By this event to some extent the men's event and the make one great again event too But the patriarch event is really aggravating to them because they finally discovered it because of the pastors we have Worked for a patriarchy. Yeah. Well, because Christianity that's the old religion and we can't have that with the new religion We have that those are that's the problem You know, that's not they're not on the same page. So again, they're a threat because they're not saying the words They're not saying we all believe in the thing, you know, we're saying the opposite words Like the page has like dominate your wife dominate life kind of shit on it I really described it to the speakers yesterday and in one of our chats I was like I feel like the events this year what I did and this is just me being me like usual That's also really useful I feel like because as a kid you guys might have done this too Like you shove m80s in a mailbox and run away when you're like eight years old If you get access to fireworks You put him in you put him in ant hills and like, you know, a little stupid shit like that You blow up someone's mailbox. Not that anyone can live your life like that, Anthony. You just But with the marketing that's really what it's like. It's like it's like their head is a mailbox On the internet Dominate your wife dominate life They can't believe it they can't the chat there's like a chat on the website They're all going like is this real is this real you need to die. Fuck you Like it's just like we'll make them a gradient took off like the the anger is so They're so unhinged because they're part of the cult They're part of a super religion that's invaded even their own religion They're all they're all allegedly Christians who hate the patriarchy and believe that, you know, the bible doesn't matter and You know, women can be fat pastors and leaders and church like all this stupid shit. This is nonsense It's amazing. It's Christianity is way more feminist and way more awoke than I realized I thought a lot of them were just kind of more blasé about Patriarchy and stuff and they're not there's a lot of them who hate patriarchy and they are avidly Christian though It's it's so weird Douglas Murray the the Scottish writer just wrote a book called just released the book called the war on the west And he actually goes into this who's like all the places where you would expect The woke nonsense to be kept out of have fallen everything has fallen I like the way you described it as a super religion And then jack reflected back to something that was along the lines of the super religion Has to then supersede your religion So you can kind of be a christian, but you have to make quite a lot of consents You have to make a lot of allowances, but i'm still christian, but You have to be you have to be a slave. You have to be a slave to the ideology You may you may have your religion as long as you also worship the gods of Rome You may keep that in your little pocket, but the better gods are the gods of Rome and you have to Genuflect to them first Empires expand you know your gods are smaller and they're down on this shelf, but the big god he goes on the big shelf Yeah, yeah, and the big god is is a is an obese worm person With a septum 100% yeah, it has to have a septum person if you're seeing in case they need to be led away like a bull Jack you brought up Christianity a couple minutes ago. I pulled up I think this is the post you put out probably a month or two ago not pretty a march 23rd And uh, you kind of discussed religions and Christianity I think and this is the right post You're at the temple temple of the sun apparently. Yeah, but can you talk to me a little bit more about this post? um Your belief some religions and in particular I think you mentioned like there's a lot of guys in the mana sphere who and I love this post Like I thought it was hit the nail on the head, but they use they talk a lot about you know Stoke philosophy and they use all these greek statues as their avatars and pictures all the time But then it's kind of like this in my opinion like a bait and switch to Christianity It's like look at these bet look at look at Perseus and Hercules And being a badass and then be Christian. It's like man wait. What like that. How is that connected? So if you talk more about this post then you're yeah, I mean uh I mean I it'd be hard to pinpoint that because there were a couple that I did like that but there were there But yeah, there there is a bait and switch going on Because it's become a trendy thing like everybody's gonna in the mana sphere or whatever in the men's movement It's become a trendy thing to like, uh, you know Now now Jesus is gonna come save us and he can bench press all your sins And there's Portodox Chad. Yeah, yeah, exactly. There's been all that and it's just a trend I've I've been around long enough to see this go through twice. I even talked to an orthodox priest recently and he was like Oh, yeah, we call them orthobros because every there's a There's a every few years. There's a wave who they think that's the way. It's the most Unwoke uh Christianity left and so they all convert to orthodoxy and then they realize that it's still Jesus and it's still like all the things that they really don't even believe in Jesus You know, they're just like I want to do the thing that makes feminists mad and that's orthodoxy uh, you know, so it's And I've just seen a lot of people who obviously You know in Christianity, I mean, you know, if I'm going to dunk again, I mean, it is a multi-level marketing thing in the sense of like Not only do you have to have your soul save but you have to go help save other souls then And it goes down the line and you get like god points for like doing that And and so like there's a lot of people feel that there it's their mission to convert other people And uh, and and so they they continue to do that and and it and they can fulfill their mission by then converting all these guys And but the thing is in western culture The sad truth of it is and that's kind of what I was talking about. I think in that post of the bait and switch Is that well all the all the depictions of Jesus Look exactly like all the dude that you hate who goes to Coachella You know, it's it's it's it's like That guy is definitely a vegan And he is definitely a feminist and like like all it's like you've talked to that guy You know what he looked you've seen that guy and he's like I know that guy smokes pot and he's he's just he is the the kind of Figure of the archetype of progressive male And so they don't lead with that Because it would be repulsive to dudes like fuck that guy. I hate that guy. That's why I'm in this movement It's because I hate that guy And so they lead with like, you know pictures of nude pagan gods And I'm like, well, that's not really fair. That's not really what you're selling Is it, you know, like you also mentioned though that christianity does have More masculine heroes, but they don't even use them and mythology and these tail or what do you call them? I mean, I always like to say and I mean like also this doesn't to shit on christian men because I think that like There isn't a religion that makes you more masculine necessarily there. I think more masculine religions But I mean you can go and find a muslim who's like just as fine, you know, terrifyingly masculine You can go find in a buddhist that's terrifying masculine You can find all these because dudes are dudes at the end of the day and they're just going to pick a frame and uh christianity is the dominant frame in america So if you're going to be a dude and have religion, it's going to be christianity probably And and so then you're going to sign up to that and then they just go about their lives continuing to be dudes So it's not like masculine, you know christian men are not masculine because there are tons of christian men who would kick my ass 100% uh, you know, but Tons of terrifyingly masculine christian men But that's just their frame Is that particular and so they they bend it around and whatever make it they make it in a way that it could be heroic for them And and so and like you're saying there have been heroes of you know, obviously, you know The does bold or whatever like the crusader Me kind of deal like obviously there have been tons of you know, obviously the last few thousand years have been christian And so all the heroes have been christian So like I mean they have all these guys But yeah, it is a weird thing like like why are you putting nude pagan gods as you're in a religion? That's kind of prudish and doesn't really it just doesn't make any sense to me I don't like it either because it's uh, if if they're overt and above board with it like a michael foster and stuff I really don't mind like it's cool Uh, michael foster is a very masculine dude is a good example He's not the only one but he's a he's a great example of it And he's very open and blunt about what he believes and I love that I respect it It's masculine. It's a masculine way to live And then it's specific to his eyes His belief system and his religion that he adopted It's when the guys become subversive and covert and sneaky about what they do And that's a lot of the anon accounts with the greek statues and even some of the guys are not anonymous And it's like this is not this is not masculine. It's not manly and it's shady and it's retarded and I don't like you Yeah, that's wrong that with it. Yeah, something like michael foster I mean like I believe what I believe and here we're gonna tell you about it if you if you if you care to listen I will definitely tell you about it But and that's that's fine. I mean like everybody's gonna have their frame like I said like and that's That's a valid frame and it's working out for him And he's being productive in life and and whatever and has a big family and and and that's good Um, and it's honest and it's straightforward and I you know, I I just you know spoke to thing with john lavel He's a for me from our army ranger and he is very jesus forward Uh, you know, you know, but uh, he's just the very masculine dude. That's his frame And uh, and so that's that's fine. And it's it's very upfront and straightforward and those guys What is good about them? is that They lead by example They they're not leading with the picture of jesus or the or the uh new pagan statues or whatever They're leading with like hey, I'm a masculine man. I'm successful in what I'm doing. I'm also christian Would you like to be christian too? You know like, you know, wouldn't you like to be christian too? It's working for me, you know, and and That's honest and decent and and whatever. I mean like uh, that's like uh, that's like a ryan mickler and a tanner guzzi They lead by example. They're like here's what I did. I made this family. I built this business I did this I did that it's it's action first. That's what we should all be doing I mean like all all leaders should really lead by example Uh, you know, like if you want to you know, like sign on to my thing because I've done pretty well with it You know, like uh, and there's validity to that and I think that that's what I said I think that you know, like, you know, obviously I'll dunk on christianity because I'm not a christian Uh, but and they'll dunk on me You know because they're they're not me So and that's fine and that's just how men are we're all going to be on different teams But I think that obviously the bigger threat is obviously the masculinity Um and the slave cult and whatever and we're all against that And so we can we can have our own like little difference of opinions about you know Meta metaphysical things But at the end of the day, I mean like we're all on the same page in that regard like we always We're all going to the gulag on the same train Yeah, yeah for sure like you know, the gas shower is for all of us Yeah, I like I don't want to control them and make them a stop being christians Like that doesn't have I care, you know, like uh You know, like I just want my own piece of the pie and do my own thing and I would like to be free. That would be cool Uh, you know and uh, that's I mean like that's that's all I really want You know, like let me explore my own ideas and and do my own thing And you can just agree with them, but we you know, like as long as I'm allowed to do them That's you know, like a very american idea, I guess Yeah, yeah, I mean religious freedom is cornerstone to how the country and why the country is founded Right. I know it's a little more because christians were murdering each other for like Hundreds of years like they can't get along Because that is the thing like that's the tricky part is that they can't get along because they do have a We all have to be one narrative They have a woke narrative that they all like we all they even have that saying and that's when you know That they're being sneaky is that they they're like There's something from the bible that they like and every and every In every man shall kneel or like in every every knee shall bend or something like at the end for for Jesus And they all have that in their back pocket And so you just have to watch when they get too much power because then they'll like that, you know Boom theocracy Didn't see that coming but theocracy And the and the muslims are more explicit about it though. Isla Mission Yeah, yeah like caliphate We said it we want it, you know, like that's who we're doing Damn, yeah, there's a lot of merit and a lot of power to being very explicit It's why one of the reasons I write the way I do on the internet and talk the way I do sometimes There's power to it like what do I want? I want all politicians to the left of george washington and thomas jefferson out of office as soon as possible all of them I'm not playing And that's that's what I think needs to happen in america I don't care actually very much about this left right paradigm It's a that to me is what america was founded as that's what it should be about And we need to get back to that and then advance it forward as quickly as possible None of this fucking compromise play a nice I'm gonna tone down my rhetoric for the general public to get elected all this bullshit That's one of the reasons I love trump is he he's not he's more he's a moderate at best But he had this attitude of being you know, they called him an extremist even though he's a moderate But like you want it to push the country in this direction I feel and a lot of the maga people are like that the genuine ones anyway the men the ian smiths for example I could care less about the the women the soccer moms Yeah, but the ian smiths and maybe like a matt gates and a rand paul and people like that people that really love america Yeah, so that's that's why that's why I write the way I do is like man I need to be what I want with feminism. I want it to be abolished. I want it gone I want it dead as a movement completely gone forever in history books like i'm not playing And I think if that if that has any chance of happening you have to be that explicit about it in that clear And that's what the woke people have. What do they want? They want masculine and be destroyed They want, you know 500 genders and they want it now they want it yesterday Like they want, you know bathrooms to everybody They want to groom the children like these people these motherfuckers are after it And that's part of the reason they've been winning for so long the culture Is they don't apologize like even for their most insane irrational shit Yeah, well you well exactly and uh, you know like I mean they have That that that old slogan I forget which branch of the military is but who dares wins Yeah, yeah, yeah, and uh, yeah, and so they're doing that. They're like They have the audacity To step forward and say exactly what they want like as you were saying that I was laughing because I was actually imagining the Chanting crowd like what do we want 500 genders? When do we want it now? You know like Marching through the street and that's really what they're doing. Yeah, and they have the audacity to do it and what's they have the audacity because they have the They're doing the will of People with a lot of money I mean at the end of the day, I mean that's That audacity if they didn't have the power behind them They would just laugh at them, you know, like as they would have 50 years ago Uh, but uh, you know, obviously they're doing the will of the people who want us to like, you know, eat the bugs and and get the pods and uh, and so like They're just useful idiots for those people because those people A lot of them, you know, like a lot of really wealthy people Actually like have very traditional lives. Yeah, you know, like they I mean that was uh, I think Maybe it was the same guy who just wrote that book that you were talking about the west book, um Yeah, Douglas Murray. We didn't write something about like, uh The two cultures in America like earlier on there was a book maybe before that The madness of crowds was before that Okay, I was thinking earlier than that even I think like mid but maybe it's a different dude I there may be a similar name, but there was something it was a comparison between like The elite called the elites in America and like I think what it was called fish town Uh, like basically like it was like, you know, the kind of rust belt like, uh middle class And the difference really one of the things that point I didn't actually read the book but there were a lot of criticisms and and uh writing about it at the time And one of the ideas was basically like in in uh fish town All the things that already fallen apart like and that's what we're seeing is like in blue collar america They're the people with the broken homes You know, like you go into blue collar america and you're having lower class people. They all have the broken homes They all have the uh the divorce problem and and uh the custody battles and all the other stuff like that You see it on a big when celebrities do it. You see it in a big scale, but a lot of The the wealthier side of society, uh, you know, the wealthier likes a top 25 percent Um, they tend to have longer marriages be more settled, you know, like Yeah, you're like you're more stable. There's not as much like Oh, well, we got divorced and then jimmy got on drugs and you know, like all the all the things that I've all fallen apart for all these people Uh, so there's just a big divide rather we think of like the the lower class as being like noble And they're the ones that are like they have the the traditional lifestyles and whatever But I think one of the points of the book that i'm talking about. I wish I could remember the name of it right now, but uh, um, it's uh Was that actually kind of the elites that are living more traditional lifestyles And but they're letting all these people the woke people and the anti-files and all those Uh come from more lower class backgrounds a lot of time, you know lower middle class or middle class and then they're they're They're coming from this fucked up environment That that and they want to perpetuate it because that's all they really understand There is there is an english writer. Um, he's a former prison psychiatrist He uses the pen named Theodore Dalrymple and I've heard him in interviews make similar points to the one that you just made the The idea of uh, like working class Nobility and traditionalism really is just an idea. It's kind of certainly in the uk It's kind of a myth. Um, and as you said the more traditional lifestyles Yeah, that would be for people who who have who have the money and who can afford it Certainly in my area like in the northwest Um at the poorer end of the northwest of the uk the poor end of the spectrum people are not living Anything like what you when you say traditional lifestyles, I know I know what you mean nothing like I mean Well, I won't I won't go into it because god knows it'll take us off in all the direction But yes, I I hear what you're saying I did look it up in the book I was talking about the reason why I thought it was murray because it was charles murray Was the author and so I thought they were the same because it's a very similar Thread of thought but then I've seen that guy and he seems very young to be this is a this book came out in 2012 Uh, it was called coming apart It was basically about the two different segments of society that are happening in america with the wealth divide That's getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and so you'll have like all the people in working class are just like You know get a living trash lives, you know, like it's almost like feudal like, you know, england or whatever like back in the day Like all the fish wives and like the uh, you know, like the gutter snipes and so forth with their life And they have this kind of like garbage culture and then you have the elites Have a third culture one of the things I thought was interesting about britain that uh friend told me That's very different from america is that uh, although it's becoming the same Is uh hunting culture Like hunting culture in britain is upper class. Oh, yes Like in america, like most of hunting culture is like in the south it's dudes like going out and getting whatever it's like Yeah, it's all that but uh But in in britain that because it's the king's land You know, it's the no nobility or the only people allowed to hunt and that's actually becoming a little bit more and more true That's kind of why i've never gotten super into hunting not because I don't like Don't think would be cool. Um, I went out on a pig hunt recently and I think I shot a pig in the jaw I didn't actually actually I didn't actually get it but uh there's You know like with the licensing and and all the things that you have to do In a lot of places in america. It's a rich man's hobby Like there are thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars you have to do to go hunting Whereas like early in america. It was very much a pioneer thing. It's like Bobby and his gun go I go out and get a deer and uh, that was normal But now it's become there's a lot of licensing. There's a lot of fees There's all kinds of things you have to be in a lottery system in in all the west really and that's the The south is a little different But in all the american west it's like your their dudes for eight years to get their elk tag You know like they gather in points and all this kind of stuff to get that one tag that they can go out hunting that one time For that one animal, you know like and so it's becoming the same thing It's just every I didn't realize that about britain until like a british reader of mine described He's like yeah hunting is like an upper class thing like nobody does that like here like it's just for tops It's just for tops. Anthony. Do you even bother with hunting licenses down in florida or did you guys just go? They just go I've actually never been hunting I've been fishing my whole life and there is a fishing license in florida Although honestly like most people don't ever fucking get it. I've never I might have had one at one point in my life I never had one growing up. I still I don't have one now I could give a fuck less And the average floridian could give a fuck less about a fishing license You can technically get a citation for it or something, but nobody fucking cares Um, I was pulled over by When I was a kid we used to speed I had a I had boats growing up I was at a boat and I used to speed, you know Usually really fast through these like slow zones of manatees and shit And I was pulled over plenty of times of fishing poles and fishing I maybe once in my whole life did a police officer ask for a fishing license like it's really rare Hunting um, I don't know exactly, but I do want to go hunting someday and learn a lot more about it It seems like a really useful skill to have as the world falls apart So that is the funny thing with hunting That is the fantasy of a lot of dudes that I kind of I like to poke fun at because um They all think that they're going to run to the woods and hunt In the end times like every old falls apart We're all going to run to the woods and hunt and I'm like if you're good All of you are going to the woods for those same like 20 to 2000 elk Uh, and what are you going to do with them and like like You know the end times are about hunting people son Uh, they're not about like uh, you're not going to live off of deer And and the other thing is they don't understand is like as far as the king's land goes like is hunting allowed in china Uh, I don't think so I don't think you're good to go hunting in china like, uh, I mean, uh Although hunting land that they go to is blm land, which is government land which the government can just say is off limits When at any point and then you're a criminal and you know, if you shot on the king's land You would get shot. You're like that's that's that's what you Yeah Used to be the way So, uh, you know, like that's I think that there is a fantasy among a lot of guys that they're going to go hunt They're they're going to hunt their way out of the apocalypse and I just don't Like I said, maybe maybe if you're hunting people, but I don't think jack's ready for the apocalypse for this cannibal cult He'll be that guy I've really been slacking on be having a cult lately Come on jack. Come on. I got to work on it Guys, I do want to I want to shift the topic to something I wanted to ask richard when I interviewed him about a month ago in the red man group I don't want to open it to both of you though So richard last time you're on the show, I had a question written down I forgot to ask you about it and I was like fuck like one of those, you know, it's another year on I got you So in the manasphere and even more widely in self-improvement Self-help communities and industries and all this crap and tony robbins kind of stuff, right From a to z with all this stuff, but it's especially true in the manasphere I'd say there's kind of this cult of forgiveness Where forgiveness is viewed and promoted is like this magical fix all like a like this magical pill that can just fix everything Forgive this person forgive your ex forgive your mother forgive your father forgive God forgive all your enemies or whatever like a forgiveness for fucking everything No matter what including when people don't ask for forgiveness. They don't apologize. Nothing, right? So what are reviews on what I would characterize as the cult of forgiveness Or forgiveness is for everything all the time and it's always a good thing Are there pitfalls to forgiveness as it interrupt healing from trauma? What is the richard gran granonian sense of forgiveness? The richard granonian sense of forgiveness lies along the path that involves The most nuanced and delicate forms of torture developed by the navajo combined with the samurai torches I have five days of screaming and peeling and begging for mercy Then I will forgive you then I will let you die I I I agree that I agree that it's a cult. I think it's um It's actually jack that switched me on to this the the brunet brown idea of vulnerability Uh, which is a great idea in a certain context broke out of its pandora's box and then infected the whole culture And I I know jack you've written about this multiple times in your posts and I just keep looking at it I'm going why why do people love the idea? Of exposing themselves to others. There's something terribly masochistic Exhibitionistic and and almost a Willingly risk-taking about this this and it fits in with another narrative, you know do good good will happen to you You know, whatever you do in the world will come back to you and I'm like, that's not the world I live in I don't know where you guys are getting this so You know the brunet brown thing about vulnerability the context in which that Works is in a therapeutic context in which there's rapport and it's very boundaries And it's an extraordinarily narrow slice of human experience where the more vulnerability you pour in The more good things will happen. Yeah in therapy with a therapist You've already built rapport with who's and it's really going well for you Then yes in no other area of life and I have thought about this for years Can I think using all the powers of my imagination where you would just pour vulnerability on something and expect a good result? It's insane. It's an insane proposition It's adjacent to your question about forgiveness. Is it necessary to forgive? I don't know ancient aramaic I don't know whether in in the new testament when jesus was talking about forgiveness What the original word was and what its connotations were if it meant Because obviously it changes in translation if it meant a letting go of or an exorcism of a demon Fine because if you carry the resentment to your father your mother someone who did something by then that hurts like it's a poison The corrupt she and if we're talking forgiveness as a letting go or an or an ex excision or removal an excision Fine, but the forgiveness. I know what you're talking about. You're talking about more of a christian sense of forgiveness where You sort of turn the other cheek I I was gonna say I would think a lot of this came as influence. It's like trickled down. You've heard of trickled down economics It's like trickled down religion into wider philosophy and the average person is just oblivious to where this came from Yeah, I I actually think it's as dangerous as the cult of vulnerability. I I don't I don't I I mean In a certain sense I can think like if you've really done the work and you really have therapeutically moved on Which means that you are now a different person Sorry folks Like you must buy and be born in you and you must live a life of a new person Then yeah, but you wouldn't need to tell that person forgive because they just naturally spontaneously Would sorry to be so coarse. They'd shit the experience out a lot of non-forgiveness and resentment as a kind of Psychological constipation they can't shit it out But you would if you truly grieved if you died to the past and were born again And I said remember what fucking sally said to you at the dance when you're 15 you just go You know try and make me feel bad. I can't Access that anymore because I'm not there anymore. So I think there's something Perverse like you're you're kind of implying by saying you must forgive That they're also you can't so you're saying you're putting the person You just use the word You just use the word must and I'm glad to use that because that's how they It's almost it's similar in a way to the woke cult the woke cult is much bigger and more dangerous I would think but you're opening you're opening a door the cult of forgiveness. They mandate forgiveness It's like this creed and it's like a tenant and you have to do it Say the words say the words forgive forgive your mother forgive. Whoever the fuck Yeah, it's it's it's bullying is what it is philosophically or intellectually I guess it's you it's interesting that you fixated on on the words you must So I used to have a Bosnian girlfriend and I got them very very well with their family And in broken English and the little bits of Bosnian that I learned we would talk about their time living on the tito on the full blown socialism And they would say you know they would laugh and they would smile and I say it wasn't all bad and you know We had our freedoms and then they would jokingly say to me in Bosnia and it's a demorash demorash it means you must And whenever there was an injunction in society their culture that they grew up in where you simply couldn't say no It was demorash. Why are we doing this demorash? Why do we do this on a fucking Wednesday demorash? And it became something that was inculcated in them. So anything that was unfair in life There was just an injunction from on high From a socialist totalitarian militaristic state. Yes, okay. We all know in the comments You fucking smart asses. It wasn't as bad in Yugoslavia as it was say in russia But tito tito was the dictator of Yugoslavia, right? Correct. Yeah, he unified the ethnic groups in Yugoslavia 10 years after he died it erupted into gulags genocide raped chaos and and hell on earth And and by all accounts, there are Hugo nostalgics from from the area Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian, Montenegroans I've met them and they do say it really wasn't that bad But there were freedoms that they just didn't have We we can't say to each other point. I'm meandering towards sorry that we can't say to each other as adults I can't say to you Anthony. You must That's insane That's fucking insane. I don't care if I'm the government. I don't care if Unless you have a gun to somebody's head and you're trying to kill them And I would say you must not or you must put the gun down or else fine But in no other area of life should we get used to the idea of saying to each other or having it said to us You must that that's not a regional proposition To the point now I'm getting an allergic reaction whenever I hear it or or it's implied to me You must and I'm like why Why who's who fucking said am I not a sovereign individual? Am I not free? I'm not a criminal I haven't like missed paying my taxes or hurt somebody or stolen from a fucking drug dealer Not being told you have to want to have sex with this person You must feel this way about this situation. You must have the correct thoughts and feelings about that Let's say fat women are beautiful. Yeah, exactly Well, you're gonna you're gonna open the Jordan Peterson portal soon, but No, the appropriate answer to for a later moment the appropriate answer to you must is you must go fuck yourself I was thinking about you the other day I realized like as you age obviously you drift right politically and whatever my friends are joking about this I still consider myself to be left of center But there was this thing where I was getting really really belligerent about something And I could just hear this like, you know, the southern caricature of you'll have to you'll have to pry my gun from my cold dead hands like that kind of level of belligerence Building up in the internal dialogue in my head and I was like, okay, we're getting a little hillbilly here We probably need to just scale back Calm down. There's still a conversation. There's still space But look what we are in our lifetimes. I'm sorry to say it We are gonna have to find where these boundaries are and the likelihood that that is done through violence I would say we're at the 90 mark now that there will be real Wides for not riots not clashes, but real violence in our lifetimes. Yeah, well, that was one of the things that uh, I heard a friend of mine put it in this particular way with with the vaccines was uh, It was about what you can be compelled to do The must thing that you're saying is it wasn't about whether they're good or bad or whatever It was like about what you can be compelled to do and that's that that's the best way I've heard that phrase because that's It that's really what the argument was. It was it was like, what can they make me do? And uh, and that's that's the real problem, you know with all that stuff I wanted to jump in on the forgiveness thing too. It's just in terms of uh Because I haven't had that experience with that group of people But uh, just generally speaking with Bad things that happen to you in your life for people that have talked you over Um, it's not about forgiveness. I don't think it's about moving on You know, like there's a difference between forgiveness and moving on like I mean, I have a handful of people. I mean, I've been around for a minute And I have uh, you have a I can have handful people I can think of who fucked me over Um, who I will never be friends with again Like I will never but I don't have any You know, and there was a time when I was really mad You know and and then but now it's like I can acknowledge that person like well that guy really knows a lot about this one thing And uh, yeah, he's really good at that and I I got a lot of hanging out with him And uh, you know, yeah, he fucked me over and I'm never gonna trust him again and we're never gonna be friends Well, it's interesting you bring whatever, you know, like he's living his life I don't need to have I'm not like out to get him for the rest of my life We're like, you know, like hanging on to this angry resentment of like it was like we he did his thing And like we're not I wouldn't trust him. I don't want to hang out with him But at the same time like I could be like, yeah, whatever. I don't have and that's really the authentic moving on It's not really forgiveness It's just like that doesn't matter to me anymore. Like you said you become a new person. I have new objectives He's not part of them, you know, like and so I've had a lot of situations where that's happened in my life where I was like, well I got burned on that one and fuck that guy and he spent a couple years Really like fixating on it and then like then it goes away You know, you're like, I'm doing other things now and that's the healing really that you need I think rather than to say like I forgive I forgive I forgive like I don't forgive him Like you did something up. Fuck you, you know, but like I don't I'm not like controlled by it You know for the right where you want to get to That in my view is a healthy what you just ended with is a healthy masculine attitude And I'm glad you brought that up like yeah, fuck that guy. We're done like I'll forgive you But I'm moving on and I think you earlier you brought up a really good point And I think that's how they manipulate people these self-help gurus online And it's it's prevalent in the hemisphere and beyond until like wider self-improvement like I mentioned It's that they falsely it's a false equivalency fallacy probably it's false equivalency They equate moving on with forgiveness They make these not only potentially connected whatever they may they mandate them to be equal in all ways and symmetrical And they're not the same thing. That's false It forgiveness may or may not be Rational and relevant moving on is going to be healthy though at some point And it's things stuck on it would build. I think what you would call for sentiment or disresentment Yeah, well, you'd just be sucking it like you're focusing on something else instead of doing something productive You know, you're letting it keep you alive something that happened to you rather than like you're doing something, you know, yeah Richard I think too and I like to know you think about it, but forgiving people In a way that is not based in reality like it's It's forced. It's you like it's not Authentic, let's say the forgiveness is in some way forced through the system Like almost like cheese going through a grater or something like it's not this is not happening what should be happening, right? They didn't ask for it. They don't deserve it. They did something wrong. Whatever, right? I think and I like to know what you think, but I think that is counterproductive to even healing at all and these are the people promising you magical healing from forgiveness, right? Forgive and all should be better and you'll feel better and your depression will be cured and your anxiety and your mental health hashtag Like it's like no, this is not this is This is probably pretty dangerous territory to be doing shit that you shouldn't be doing and is pretending that it's all going to be this magic Fixall, do you see any pitfalls with it 100%? I mean, um, because if somebody nobody ever tried that with me But I am aware of what you're talking about and all there are self-help movements that have very cult like elements to them And when I'm on the outside, I'm looking in and people come back and they're like, oh my god It's so amazing We were just told to forgive and then to let it go and we the forgive and the forgive and I'm like that's a magic word really What what does it even mean? What does it mean? And I suspect to the people who are advocating it. I know the type. They're probably narcissists They're probably full of rage and envy and resentment themselves And what they're doing is they're saying I have a delusional image of myself as a christ like Buddha like figure who can wave a magic wand and like This this golden light comes out and then the other person is just magically forgiven by my Royal I mean, there's almost like a patronizing element to this my royal highness and the spiritual hierarchy And now I want to convey to my lesser Minion followers who have deigned to touch my robe for a moment Who I have deigned to let touch my robe for a moment. This is the magic that you also can do lesser things It's all the kind of weird adult roleplay That's being carried out enormously and sincerely now. Okay fine If it was just theatrics and and you just wanted something to do on the weekend But as you've just alluded to what if it's like childhood trauma What if the person was sexually abused as it as a kid or as an adult some some other awful like sexual assault God knows let you know and then and then you go. I really need help. Oh, we'll go and see the quantum Wank bubbles. They're a great cult and then this master of the cult is saying to you. Just forgive. Just forgive Seaman retention will change Exactly Isn't aren't isn't our reality now becoming more and more infused with this kind of magical thinking are really withdrawing into these weird Childlike fantasies these narcissistic delusion if I could just hold in my pee pee Everything will my chi will change. Why would you think that you fucking? Why would you believe something so patently? I mean, I used to see this years ago in the martial arts world where You would have I'm not joking like policemen. I mainly work with an american audience Policemen soldiers special forces guys swat team members They knew their ship if they wanted to shoot somebody they were brilliant They knew everything that needs to be done. You could not training wise strength training nutrition America typically is about 15 years ahead of the uk and all these things at any one moment in time But when it came to unarmed violence They went into gugugaga mode and they believed in fucking kung fu and they believed in the fiver And I was like guys why of you? Just let go of your understanding of physics mechanics human physiology Just because we've gone into the magic space of fighting not all but enough that there was a huge hungry market there I won't name names, but there was people Claiming to have developed a navy seals unarmed combat system like the fucking navy seals need And they were teaching this with a straight face and it was garbage And actually very intelligent people who I knew in that community were paying them to do that because I think in our heart of hearts We are all still children and we all still want the magic formula We all would love to believe that there's one thing The special drop of the special vial of the touch of the golden medallion or some fucking thing That's going to save us and make everything okay So when you get hard-line as you are objectivists as you are randian or nichean And and you know there's this what other people perceive as a nihilistic view Where we're saying stop believing in shit that's out there jack. You said there's no there there I think that's a wonderful statement and I wish I could Confer that to people so in a way that they could grasp it let go of your ideology Let you're all like dumbo with the magic feather. There's no fucking magic feather No one's coming to save you you must must must grow up and just deal with the problems you have in front of you Stop running from them because they don't go anywhere They really don't a woman brother a woman a woman I wish I could you know like I I was laughing while you were talking about some of that because you know like there's my eternal struggle is that I wish that I could develop a psychological illness that like allows me to just be a sociopath and just be like I have the solution and and just believe it and like because once you believe it Then you can sell anything and then you then you become rich and then you have a whole bunch of people Kissing your ass and uh, I could never make myself believe it and people can see it so You know like I'm like, uh, that's probably bullshit You know like at the older I get the more I'm like, that's probably bullshit So like, uh, you know like I I always laugh at myself I'm like I wish like I would just something would break in me where I could like become the sociopath Be like I have the solution the quantum jerk off club I have the solution brothers I am the one But you know, like I've never been able to do that someday. I'm not gonna say it'll never happen Maybe I'll be able to do it someday But uh, it is what you were saying like the there's so many trends and I've been seeing this in the space Maybe it's just because I'm older or whatever but like, uh You know like jump on that like with big with fitness trends Is the same thing, you know, like the semen retention thing is the new thing It's the new old thing. It's like been around for forever Uh, but like it's the new thing for the kids right now like don't come That that's gonna fix your life, uh, you know, or like, you know, clean your room clean your room It was it was sun in your balls like last year and and uh, yeah sun your balls don't come, uh, like, you know, like eat carnivore You know, like it's gonna be it's it's always like a magic bullet thing and we used to laugh at this because it was like, uh Like almost a feminine thing Where they would jump on this I'm laughing a lot of these guys. I'm like you got you you're like chicks who are like drinking diet teas You know, like you're drinking diet. He's I'm thinking it's gonna be like Like it's exactly the same thing like like I have this one magic pill and magic bullet and I'm like Well, no You probably just need to go to the gym every day for a really long time And that's not that's a lot of work and but no, but if you sun your balls you see then you you're like And it's like no, it's like you a lot of these things you you play with them you take work I mean like I have to talk to my trainer. I'm like I feel like I'm water You're right now that I was like two weeks ago. I don't understand why Like we we need to work it out because my body's different than somebody else's, you know, it's all this, you know, like There is no like single answer to everybody who like this is going to make you like, you know, awesome Uh, you know, like everybody people would take any other answer other than you need to eat a bit less Anything I would dance naked in the rain playing the flute other than you need to eat less Yeah, you probably need to eat less, you know, like, uh, you know, like there are things that seem to have worked for most people for a really long time We should probably do those Talk to someone who looks the way you want to look and then like to like let them tell you what they did You know, like, uh, it's it's but that's all hard work And uh, you know, it's these trends that everybody jumps on all the time. It's just like, uh, you know It's like the 80s commercials like the 80s commercials like, you know What thigh master or like all these or the shake weight or like all the funny things like if you just do this It'll work, you know, and it's it's all ridiculous and it's just like stop But that's how the money there's so much money in that though Like, you know, like and people want to get in on the train Especially I think people who have like given up a little bit on not being sociopaths Yeah, they're like, you know, I think it's dudes get richer. Sometimes that happens like you're like, well These people buy any fucking thing. So like just like, okay guys, here's here's the thing to buy this week. There you go Yeah, and I've seen that in the fitness industry, especially like being close to people who are really big and influential in it And that's why I have my bullshit meter is really high because I've watched them like create stuff that was like Like well, I need a gimmick this week Yeah, like I literally need a gimmick this week So oh, this is funny and they'll it's almost a joke Like I think a lot of those like bozu bo exercises and things like that there are literally like a trainer being like I wonder if we can get dudes to do this This is like This is gonna be hilarious, you know, like I I think some of these guys are actually like that And I've been around of them some of them who actually are, you know, I like like let's see if we can get people to do this Yeah, maybe this is a religious impulse like buying I always forget what this is Where when you're a catholic and you've been naughty and then can't you buy forgiveness or buy favors or whatever that's called Whenever whenever I say this Yeah indulgences indulgences. Thank you because otherwise fiero san giorgio Who's watching this will have to text me afterwards and say return. I've told you three times. It's indulgences That dude is awesome Yeah Guys, I had one more question. I wanted to dig into a big question And it relates to what we were talking about earlier, particularly though I would say both you can comment on it and should but it comes a lot from jack stuff So jack and your books fire in the dark the way of men everything in between You talk about a man going to the world they go out like we're talking about earlier They leave the womb leave the home whatever They they create order they create order from chaos. They go into the world and they conquer But order is central to this and it's not just you and this is in richard This is jordan peterson. It's 10 000 other philosophers in history, right? Yeah with that in mind men create order And they create things do women are women destroyers? Do they create chaos? Do they bring chaos? I recently was tweeting women are destroyers and people got kicked out of this But I but in many ways I mean it women destroy things if you let a woman lead your marriage She'll probably destroy it if you let a woman lead your family and she'll lead it right off the cliff Like michael foster talks about this all the time He jokes about letting his wife drive the car for like two minutes And then he's like oh that was enough experimenting with feminism back to Getting the fucking bastard scene But I mean look at feminism as feminism is taken over america in the west It's like the country has gotten into 200 trillion dollars in debt Things are collapsing the world won the brink of world war three or whatever like I think women are destroyed or they bring if men are order women are chaos So are women do you agree with that? Do you have thoughts on this? Do women destroy things like? Um, I don't think it's their natural impulse to destroy, but maybe it is not their natural impulse to order um it's uh I mean obviously they're closer to the earth like literally every mythology says that you know like women are closer to the earth They're closer. They're obviously the womb and and the void and all that Uh, you know they're closer to an emotional world, uh, you know, then I think yeah, I went a very emotional But just we have different emotions, uh, but it's I I don't think that women are necessarily naturally destroyers, but it's if If they're given purpose You know if they if they're the way I just explained it in fire of the dark because I was like I tend to get around women questions a lot because I'm like, I don't want to open that Pandora's box if you will I don't I don't want to deal with that mess that's that's going to create But I felt like I was I was skirting around it. So at the end of fire in the dark I was like, well, what would solar femininity look like, you know, like what would productive femininity look like And it's really like when women and men are on the same team Working towards the same like we've agreed what order is and we're working towards the same team Women can be your best asset Uh, you know women can be like your support team. They're they're really good at doing a lot of things And if you look at really successful marriages of you know successful people Um, you they'll both be on the same team like we're in this together like I always think of it And this is like a terrible example because it's super sociopathic, but like that that show house of house of cards Oh, yeah The wife is like on the team up until the end and they made it all feminist and stupid But like, uh, you know, the wife is like she's pulling strings back because we are on the same team We are conquering this shit together and she's working the social scene and doing all these things and he's doing the other side of it And they're they're they both have purpose. So they're very it's very constructive but if I think that also The problem we know this gets in an ugly discussion about colonialism or whatever but like, uh People can't necessarily perpetuate systems that they they weren't involved in creating Or that we're created with their own interests And I think that's more what you're saying with feminism and so forth It's like well if you put women in charge of this thing that women have never really been oriented to run Um in in the way I think specifically The way this comes in is in play with their understanding of violence um in the way that men Men do this, you know primal math of like I cannot run my mouth To pass x-point with this dude that's bigger than me Because at some point he's gonna beat the shit out of me You know like we will do that math whereas women grow up in the in this protected environment their entire lives where they can say any Damn thing Yeah, and like no one will hit them Well, even looked geopolitically Finland and sweden you might have seen I think both recently applied to become members of nato And obviously russia is like yeah, we're mad like you're not gonna like this Yeah, and the joke I saw is it's like and it refers exactly to what you're referring to is that these countries are run by women It was it was specifically like women who ended up putting this through right and they're both, you know Sweden's ground zero feminism a hundred percent But it's like they have no concept of escalation for violence and what can happen in retaliation through their choices Because they've been raised in this protected, you know fluffy environment and all they see their only model of escalation is superhero Women on tv who can beat up three men three times their size with ease without breaking a sweat It's like you're all gonna die like this is fucking stupid Yeah, yeah, I mean it's like what and Buddy of mine used to say that one of the most feminine games in the world is you two fight You know like like like let's get let's get two guys mad at each other and have them fight And and that's because they're used to being able to do that and If you're gonna be in charge of something you have to realize that you have to fight Like you like you're it's your it's your ass on the line or you're putting all these other guys ass Asses on the line and they're just not really wired to see the world in that particular way And that's what's really dangerous. I think about it rather than you like rather than saying that their story is or whatever I think it's more like that just like they're You could see it with the defund the police movement, which is most women It's majority women would support that kind of shit You know like it like let's get all excited about that like we shouldn't have police Well, what do you do when there are no police? Well, what happens? Well? Men I think instinctively no Well, some dude's just gonna come and beat me up and take my stuff And there's no one to call or nowhere to go And that's why we have police is that like you bit like okay like someone broke into my shop like who do I call? It's called police You know because otherwise, you know And and the reason why they did it was because at that time my complex didn't have any security They didn't have anybody there at night. So there's no one there to deter There's no threat deterrence and I don't think women understand the threat deterrence aspect of it And this idea of the perimeter that I always talk about with masculinity Is that they aren't really wired to be like think about all the self-defense aspects of like You know the what'll have what bad men will do if you give them a chance Yeah, and that's that's I think what's really dangerous about society It's like they're they're not really thinking about a whole side of human nature that gets real ugly real fast We'll put Richard do you have thoughts on this? You know women femininity chaos destruction Well, it depends on what you mean by chaos really let me throw a grenade Let me throw a grenade. Let me throw a grenade in the mix real quick. So I mentioned, you know And I'm 80 in the mix here women. I said women will destroy things if you lead a relationship I believe that firmly Not that I disagree with what jack just said, but there's still components where like You put women maybe that's what jack was saying is you put women in the wrong position that they have no historical or sociological Backstory or history to influence what they do to to inform their decisions And it just gets really out of control and they destroy things like maybe you know The women in finland are going to destroy finland now because they're like who cares what russia is going to do and Putin is like oh no. No like you must die but anyway, um You know, for example at richard to be more specific before you open your thoughts on it Women have been given freedom in america What's this folks on america and they have in many ways destroyed themselves with that freedom They're fatter than they've ever been so they've destroyed their health. They're miserable. They're unhappy There are major studies that where they self-report this Women have destroyed their femininity. They're more masculine manly and harrier than they've ever been It's it's a mess. It's really It's a mess They're on they're more medicated than they've ever been I think that's just because you're fixated on because you you just tweeted something about like you've actually never seen a woman Without without the same armpits You throw up But sir richard with that in mind, um, please expand your thoughts But in my view there's a lot of destruction that women will kind of default to the minute That they're in many ways that they're given freedom or put in the wrong position of leadership and things like this Good Let's let's let's let's let's pass this carefully. Um, I don't think that we can say women are more destructive than men I mean the the most you know First year of university grade answer to that would be who's done more destruction in the world? Is it men or women and they're going to say it's men So the will to destruction is is a is a human issue and it's an issue I believe of of the shadow there is a part of us that loves destruction I have destroyed things. I have beaten people up Outside of competition and I love that I love that and I have to live with that because I'm them like what Well, what am I what kind of an entity would would would take such Savage joy in in destroying something There wasn't mine to destroy because I didn't I didn't create that Women are the ultimate creators. They are the only ones who can create our power is in destruction Their primal power is in creation The oldest job in the world prostitution. That's what we're saying So they offer sex which if it goes to its full term involves in creating a human being There is a second oldest job in the world. I think which is assassin That is the realm of men we can kill they can give birth They can create we can kill we can destroy so if we're looking for a polarity issue I would lean that way. I would say women are creators Men are the men are their primal power is destruction But if you are now we'll move to more Jungian psychology and politics So if we're going to say anima is female its spirit And animus is male and its mind One is the suit of the air. One is the suit of swords Well in that realm where where Jordan Peterson actually got this wrong because he kept on saying women is its chaos in terms of Taoism It's a mistranslation the the word actually meant more Potentiality so women are pure potentiality or sorry the feminine yin is pure potentiality yang is that which is it is that which has been Is that which is written? It's a it's a dictation Yin is could be so is there destructivity in that which is could be No until It meets that which is so when that which is potential meets that which is in a non-noble state in a toxic way There is I suspect a desire to tear it down because it is it's a Nietzschean resentment filtered through Jung into politics the politics of the french revolution Strictly speaking if we're following the french revolution if you're on the left side of the house You were destructive You were for not this if you're on the right side of the house you were for this So one is one was yin One was technically yin. You can't deny it. They were for Usurping chaos create chaos so we can reform the idea was to have yin now So there's yang tomorrow and the right side of the house was no we love the king We love the church the way things have been is the way they always should be So there is a kind of masculinity to that but to then say well men are right-wing and women are left-wing revolutionaries is wrong Some women can be anima possessed. Sorry animus possessed more masculine Some men can become anima possessed and become more feminine. So there's woman in man man and woman I don't believe the feminine principle is one of chaos and destructivity but I do think That where it comes to The oppositional states so if it if it's if it's shadow activated then yes It will become destructive in a corrosive way But so will yin if it shadow activated it will smash the fuck out of anything that's in its path So there's a what did yang say I said this in the talk for you. He said something like When the when the anima meets the animus The animus draws his phallic sword of power and the animus squirts What does he say like a corrosive cloud to confuse him the animus? So there is animosity there between the two states Sexual symbology of all what's going on here It's very sexual so I think I think I think there's something here It's interesting because just recently I was reading from I misgendered a psychologist. It's silly me Marie Louise von franz and I read her as m von franz and I said he so I did a whole video on her She's a savage She's really good and and if you got a chance to check out the video I just did because her quotes as a psychiatrist Are very anti-safetyism anti psychology. She says things like depressed people are essentially greedy narcissists Most of what people's mental health issues are is nothing more than laziness. She is a beast So you have this and and there's there's there's other women In the Jungian lineage who are like that and 40. I don't know their names, but another woman not Marie Louise von franz another Jungian psychoanalyst said of women Women are a greater threat to culture because the shadow is closer to the surface with women So it's easier for women to become shadow activated. So there is that one little concession I'd give you to the to your first point because I think I'm not saying that a woman said that but it's worth exploring the possibility that something like that could be true If I can if I can build on a couple things and maybe even contradict with you but uh, one of the things, uh With women in creation, I would actually say that they're vessels for creation Um, they're vessels for our creation. Uh, you know, like we we activate them. Uh, there's certain Like slave all women is speaking of savage women who are awesome Um, as cameo paglia said if we let women make the world we we uh, still be living in grass huts Uh, you know, like the men are creators and destroyers to your point You know, who's done the most destruction in the world? Obviously men you are correct about that 100% uh, but there is a thing with uh, it's fundamental to life That it's like a truth that is really really lost on vegans is that creation comes from destruction You have to create to this you have to destroy to create Uh, in the way that you couldn't have created america without like destroying the bond to the britain Like that had something had to die so that something could live the umbilical cord and yeah, we still not go over it Yeah, yeah, yeah, but like I mean the same way that like life all life comes from death and we feed off of death In the terms of like they obviously eating Uh, like everything kills to like what movie was I watching was it was really well? Oh, I think it was in yellowstone, which is amazing um, but uh The father the father told told the son the young boy. He's like, you know, everything everything kills to live It was when he blooded his first his son on his first hunt It's like everything kills to live even the trees the big ones will kill the little ones You know, like they'll they'll cluster out the things so everything You know, it's like I guess it would be in each would call it a will to power almost it like Everything like wants to grow it beyond itself and will destroy other things in its process So I think that men do create and destroy Uh, you know, like definitely we are more destructive and also more creative like we've created all of civilization but like we've also Created all the wars that needed it to happen for the to move You know, there's a there's a constant movement that we create I think that uh and and new young men. That's the problem with young men in many societies. That's why you had Uh, America was great in the sense not in being that America is great like in jingoism But like in uh in the sense of like there were all these people stuck in europe and they had nowhere to go Like there was no upward mobility for them So that's why they wanted to come to America because they they wanted they wanted to go somewhere where they could rise up Because there was a ceiling because there was a noble class and whatever and like you only get to go so high and whereas like you could go to america and like Do you become a giant railroad? You know like magnet or whatever like just build a fortune build whatever do whatever you want and uh, so it's like, yeah men need that that that space to grow and uh create and so like if we don't get it We become very destructive If we can't grow and we can't like create and we can't do anything then we just destroy And that that that is something that you deal with especially. I think that a lot of people have talked about that in terms of young men If you don't give them a productive path They destroy they will destroy everything around them Well, they don't know what else to do, you know, they're missing of china right now I mean china population wise is majority men right because their policies to have And i'm sure their government is the communists are worried like hell About what all these young men are going to do is they can't find wives because there's literally not in the fucking women Like what's going to happen? They're either going to turn in and destroy or turn out and destroy depending on how they get utilized Right and the culling maybe is why you send them to war Yeah, you know like that's why you said what are we going to do with all these extra young men? It's like a huge that's like one of the oldest problems in like the world We have all these extra young men and not enough wives for them Um, what are we going to do send them on whaling ships send them to war Have them do something somewhere that's productive and I think in the way I meant it weirdly I can't believe I remember this but maybe it was Henry James or someone uh, there was a book They came out where he was talking about that like what will we give it was it was a moral substitute for war Is what he was talking about what would we give meant to do that's an equivalent of war You know, what could we give them to do that gives them the same passion and and power and all the things that men need That isn't killing people You know that isn't like just destructive or whatever and that's that's the big challenge of society in many times How do you harness that masculine energy and move it in a productive direction? And you know one of the things and that's that's what you know the feminism plays with fire a little bit is that um, you know in destroying all the sports and all that kind of stuff, uh, you know like That sports is traditionally one of the answers. What do you do with men so they can feel like they're killing each other but not Uh, you know like well sports, you know, like the sports you use all the war of the war, you know activities Uh and get the same you get the same mental high out of it all the all the things that you're doing when you're in battle Uh, you know to a lesser degree obviously because it's not life or death But you know, they're exercising that they're playing like puppies and it's That's that's a particular. Well, it is. I mean like there's nothing like there If men had tails while they were fighting they would wag them Like just just like I mean if you've ever done, I know you've done martial arts Like there is a thing that is actually like they're like You're like, yeah, I get to put somebody. Yeah It's it's fun. I mean I when I do jitsu, you know Roll with people like we're all laughing at the end. It doesn't matter. Someone's just almost got choked out You're like everybody's smiling. You're like everybody's like we get to do this game You know, it's like it's like when my dogs want to play and they're like their tails are wagging the whole time And they're but they're like savagely trying to kill each other But just play fighting, you know, and that's what men have to do that And that I think yeah, it's one of the big challenges of society is to find out how to give them that And if you shut down all these male spaces where male males do that Um, you're creating kind of a powder keg of of like dudes that hold don't have any outlet And so they just destroy themselves or destroy women or destroy society They become just very just principles of destruction and let instead of giving them that balance that they need We'll put we'll put I got another question here So both of you are either in some capacity different degrees each of you But you're pretty familiar with the men's movement the man's fear or whatever you want to call it What do you want to see for the future of that movement? Like where would you hope if you could just You don't have to use this Exactly, but it's something comes to mind if you could just wave a magic wand and make it go a certain way Or what are some of the directions you want to see it head over time in the coming years? It has a long history at least 25 30 years at this point depending if you want to count like The warren feral's and the early men's rights movement from the early 80s That's been going since at least the 90s. So where do you want to see it go into the future now? We're in the 2020s. Uh, what do you guys think about that? All right, I'll jump in while he thinks because he's yeah That's yeah He's got something coming I think you and I talked about this a little bit the other day anthony and kind of a sidebar conversation is that There are certain things i'm very much Nietzsche in a certain sense of like yeah, I was just reading i'm working on my own edition of Thuspec zero thruster because I want a big edition so you can like open it it's like eight and a half by leaven and it's like a holy book And so i've been formatting that so i've been reading it little by little every day as I format it in design And one of the things that I was always weird about his thing of Dionysus But the his attachment to it is like I think Stay attached to the earth because we are animals and we are human and uh When societies forget that they get a little too high-minded and then they create all kinds of Like suppressed structures and I think richard probably would agree with this as well You know all these you know like super puritanical cultures create all this like repression that then that comes up later It creates it creates destruction that they tamp down In a various ways, but we have to remember that we're animals and and that there are certain things that don't go away No matter how much we wish and the woke culture is is doing that like like You will think whatever we say is beautiful is beautiful. Whatever we will tell you what gets your dick hard you know like all the all the things that you know like Things that don't work, you know like things that just don't work. I mean, it's very christian in that way Like we will tell you what gets your dick, uh, you know, like You know, it's clearly being It's there are all these things that are like the id or whatever like they are our primal nature that need to be dealt with in a productive way and I think that We're at this point in the men's move to wherever where it's it is actually going mainstream Where there's like there's money in it and there's like a lot of guys doing a lot of cool stuff I mean like all of rye mickler's guys and all There's so many guys who follow him like all these dudes are doing jiu-jitsu now So many dudes are hunting and doing jiu-jitsu and working out of the gym and like all these really positive things Are really are happening and that's great And uh, it's like a renaissance of masculinity in a way. Yeah yeah, and uh The the the thing is I think that it needs to go in a particular Or or you know, there are many things that need to be served In that and one of them I think that we were talking about the other day Is that there's a middle way because we do live in the modern world such as it is And I don't think all men are immediately going to become celibate and wait for virgin wives because they aren't there Like there aren't enough virgins again, and then you run into that problem where we could do all these men Um, and uh, there aren't enough virgins. There aren't enough like, you know, like we don't live in the somogenous culture where you know Everybody's just every just gonna stop fucking Everyone's gonna like get married and be be well behaved Uh, that's not that's not where we are. I don't think society is going that way Um, that is certainly an option and it should always be an option and it's a good option for a lot of guys But I think that we also need a middle way Like how are we gonna deal with all these guys who have been fucking for like 20 years? Or like 10 years or like who have been out on the marketplace and like are dealing with the world that is actually there and not this mystical world of like where Women where like, uh, whatever calico dresses or whatever, you know, like where where their little dress flower dresses And they go to school and they've been behaved and you know, they they're dealing with the real world as it is right now And it's actually multiple places as it is. So what is the middle way? For all these these dudes, you know, like, uh, yeah, exactly Yeah, like they're only they're only like so many of those There's a very limited supply And uh, most of them their dads because they had good dads and that's why they're like that Uh, but most of them, I mean their dads wouldn't want them to be with half these guys You know like and uh, so I think what do you do with these guys? What's the middle way? Of men who how do they have productive relationships with women? um That are or whatever you're like, what how do they have productive relationships that aren't necessarily married monogamous for life White picket fence, whatever But are also healthy And where they're good until they're not You know like I think they that's a lot a lot of guys actually have relationships like that Like they're they'll be in a relationship for like five years And I think they think there's this idea like that's terrible and wrong But you know, they had a good five years and I had a actually special forces guy or whatever operator type dude the other day He handled this really really cool on instagram. He handled it the best way And he had just broken up with his girlfriend and I met his girlfriend Hang out with him and they they spent some really good years together and he's like You know, thank you for all the experiences. Well, I had a really good time They like it was a good it was really positive. I wish you the best Um, you know our thing came to an end But you know like and that was man, I'm like, yeah, you are like buddha Like that is so mature and that is exactly what needs to happen for a lot of guys Like how do they how do you have a productive relationship where you both had a really good time? And you both did love each other for X amount of period of time But then it's like you went in different directions and that isn't going to work out Because that's that's the life that a lot of these men are going to leave That's their best life really is like they're going to have I see I always I like the Frank Sinatra song It's a very good year Like it was a very good year like he like you know When I was young as into this kind of girls and I was in but I got older I was dating socialites and it's just it's this really nice song and I like I think of my life is you know Like a fine wine kind of like he's enjoyed all these things over the years that in a very positive way And he's very positive and reflective about these were all I like these girls and I liked these girls And I had a great time and it was good And it's not hateful It's not like I'm going to fuck all these girls and get all these notch counts and like Like I'm angry and I just need to like prove something And it's just it's also not like like I said not all these dudes are going to get married and have It like they're not yeah the more the sexual marketplace is not such as that's the That's a realistic end for a lot of guys So I guess I think where I'd like to see the man a sphere or the men's movement go Is how do we find a productive way for these guys to live very to to live healthy productive lives that aren't the traditional white picket fence Family thing because they're gonna have to do that You know like there's gonna be a lot of extra men Either there aren't yeah, they aren't there There's a thing that I think that kind of like the Jordan Pearson culture or whatever like and not him specifically But there's a certain character kind of dude That it's almost a sense of entitlement like We were supposed to have wives. Where are the wives? Like we were supposed to we were we were guaranteed, you know like all these other men in history They all had the wives and then we were supposed to get and they're mad about it You know, they're mad like we've gotten shorted in society and that's a very entitlement mindset Because as we've said that that wasn't always true. There was always the extra men who didn't have the wives And and so like I just like to see I think more guys address How do you live a healthy happy life? And be productive and not have all this anger and not resentment and but also you're just The the white picket fence isn't gonna work for you Hmm Yeah, good discussion Boss that Yeah, I was talking about I want to mention too I've been talking with Elliot Hulse about a lot of same issues And even though he's hardcore catholic christian and all that stuff He still very much sees that there's a need for like dating advice and Men who are at the the exact point in life you're talking about They've been on the market for five 10 20 years The women that they're going to date to and see are the exact same position Yeah, so it's like what do you do with all these guys and Elliot saying about the same exact stuff Even though he has his own specific vision With Catholicism and his belief system and stuff sure Yeah, I didn't know what grant he was easy. I thank you Catholic I was sure which side he was on But I didn't either I didn't either it's uh part of that thing is as great His honor is great aunt is uh was a catholic non for like 50 years If you look at his instagram to see a picture of her from recently she looks amazing. It's it's crazy She's like 90 years old. Wow Yeah, anyway, uh, richard you have thoughts on you you're kind of I would say you're part of the man's sphere like it or not But in a way also you're like an observer. Do I have to be? It's just kind of a feminist if a feminist decides If a feminist website and a group of assholes at it decide that they want to attack you They're just going to throw you in the man's sphere and there's no like escape me. They'll call me right wing They'll say I'm a right man's fair guy Then they'll say I'm an incel. Um, I I I really don't like ideology. I really really think ideology Is a coward's philosophy ideology is um Is a weak person's poor substitute for philosophy. I think feminism is an ideology Inside the man's sphere present company accepted. There is a ton of ideological infection. There's a ton of Just rank ideology ideological responses ideological ideas. We've discussed this Anthony designs too rampant to the science. I mean garbage and and I suppose So I have two two levels the answer number one is I'd like to see it disappear And when I say that I mean in the kindest way possible, I'd like to be I'd like it to be redundant It's not good that the suffragettes ever needed to do what they did But they needed to do something and I don't think it's and that then became feminism. I guess That mutated it's not good that men have to do this. I don't see Because it's ideological. I don't see positive outcomes coming direct From the efforts inside of the man's sphere because it's an ideological stance. However, it is necessary And so I would I and I agree that it's necessary And I would like to see it become redundant I'd like to see men and women come back to each other. I'd like to see people get over the ideological infection I'd like to see people individuate from shadow grow up become adults and live their lives all this time and angst and and debate and hand wringing and Philosophizing and trying to find solutions. We could be pouring this into just living lives and to just Having a good having a good time as good a time as you can have living a normal human life I said before I'm pessimistic, but in some ways I'm very optimistic and idealistic In many ways in the last few years. I've come to realize that there's nothing wrong with this world This world is is Edenic. It's like Eden. We're still in the garden of Eden We're the ones making it suck. We make humans make it suck. They're really like you have a toothache We have the technology for that your leg breaks. We can fix you and give you painkillers The the doesn't need to be as much suffering as we're in right now And a lot of it not in fact all of it is is based on Shadow activation shadow possession and ideological infection and if we could eradicate that The manager would be unnecessary because people would just be living their lives So jack's point though with this there is a statistical problem here Which is that they're probably, you know, we all like to live with the idea as somebody for everybody But what do you do when you find there ain't somebody for everybody? Not everybody, you know, there is There isn't maybe five Maybe there's five. Maybe there's five It it reminded me before when you were talking about Christianity and you said I'm gonna dunk first That was like I'm gonna say I'm gonna dunk second the conversation moved on The the whole thing with the Christian effort. I think with all of the Abrahamic religions Judaism Christianity and Islam Is it's an effort to find a solution to what to do with very worry men Very rough men in that time and that place like what do we do with these Jewish warriors? What do we do with now now these Muslim warriors? What do because they weren't they were just they were just Samites those Arabs. What do we do? Well, we have to give them a narrative That stops them from fucking killing each other and everyone else So this is how we're gonna do it and there is therefore a sort of a coercion of The natural instincts of course because as any philosophy or religion would teach us we can't just debate our most primitive instincts That's not gonna work But it's it's an effort Again that I think It hasn't obviously it hasn't been entirely successful and I don't know that it can be Who said it was woke 1.0 and woke 2.0 Yeah, so yeah, I've never heard it described that way but but but but but it is So we're taking like the reality of what people are the animal Dionysian reality and going we can't have that Why because we're not going to live in fucking tribes anymore. We want to live in these nice cities over here And we want to farm and we want to we need to store the grain we need to store property Now you need capital now. You need to have things now. You need to live under a roof with a wall You can't just kill people in the night. It would be fucking chaos. It wouldn't work So we had to have an all-seeing god that watched and was like don't you know Go raping and don't be killing your neighbor's ass and whatever Because that's what it needed. Just really it was about social cohesion And we still haven't answered that question But then the experiment hasn't been running for very long relative to human evolution this experiment may be The shift to arable farming seven thousand eight thousand years old We still don't we're we're still at the weird tail end Of trying to solve this problem that we've been wrestling with for at least probably eight to ten thousand years now That also reminds me of something jack donovan said to me once when you were interviewing me for chess magazine on the phone but I don't know a year ago or six months ago or something and I forget the exact Uh phrase you use maybe maybe you remember I know I wrote it somewhere, too But you said that feminism if I can quote correctly paraphrase feminism is like the biggest thing that's ever happened in history And I had never thought of it that way before as much as I hate feminism and harp on it And I view it as very destructive like an infection like a way in a way that uh richard's referring to here And the mana sphere is the cure for that cancer the feminism But you the way you said it made me think in much bigger terms even than usual And I think feminism is deadly to the to the future of the western civilization Like it's a big deal to put it lightly But I think you were the way I interpreted what you said jack is that feminism is the biggest thing in history Because it's like inverted male female relationships And it's destroying the fabric of how we are even civilized in the first place Which in my view from evolution to the farming to now Is the relationship between men and women like this is beyond adam and eve all the way through like this is super fundamental I don't know where I was going with that in terms of turning it into a question But it all just comes to mind. I'll never forget you saying that I was like that's that's it's nail My head feminism is fucking huge. Yeah, it's a big it's a big Change it's like one of the biggest changes ever. I mean to have like female political power Is not a thing. I mean if you look at the list of human universals of like all societies ever female political power as a as collectives now you had like female stand-ins for patriarchal lines Yeah, but female political power is a completely new phenomenon Directly direct. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah direct. Yeah, and uh, so because women have always been chatting and their husbands ears Or you know, oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely women have always had power, you know, like of a kind But like specific political power Is and and you know the same via like the no-fault divorce and like all all these things like combat roles all of civilization that we have recorded Yeah, they they that has not been a thing Yeah, and so like it is a very it's a huge shift in every aspect of society like Okay, well women don't raise children. Maybe the husband stays home and raises the children. That's new Um, like that's all these things like that are psychologically built in. We're you know, like evolutionary psychology. We're like designed to See things in this particular way And if you deviate from that too far like, you know, the human nature comes out And that's kind of what we're seeing is that like, you know, like I said that women really don't Have the experience of thinking In a way of dealing with the perimeter You know in the same way like putting them in that position is is totally new for them in an evolutionary perspective because you know, like The more you go back and they you know kms or Uh, you know men are protected because they're vulnerable when pregnant And they're protected because they're an asset, you know, like it like men fight for fight over women You know, like they're an ass. They're they're like, you know, like wheat or like, you know, like they they're a resource They're breeding stuff Yeah, yeah, well, I mean that Yeah, that's a real thing Uh, you know, like and and so women they're like the rape of the savine women or whatever like it like we need women We will go take them. Uh, you know, that that's a thing And so to be in in the opposite situation is a very new thing in history and and that's the uh Yeah, it's it's the tectonic shift of that and the effects of that through society is what we're dealing with It's like if you introduce that and obviously all of that was created by Um the industrial revolution in birth control Yeah, like feminism doesn't exist without those two things Yeah, we go right back to where we were a second, you know, like and that's why abortion is so important to feminists Uh is because like they know that reproductive control is The only way that feminism exists Yep, uh, because all of a sudden I was like, oh, you're pregnant. Sorry, you know your career thing that you were going to do No, that's that's not that's not real now Um, you know and and so it's these are all very new things that are really a growth of technology If there are problems that technology created, you know, like we can't have feminism without birth control and in all that and uh We can also You know what comedian that I saw I saw like a tick tock or something like Of some comedian who said like women time the revolution perfectly like Like they went as soon as air conditioning went into offices. They're like we want to work And uh, that there's some truth to that you like the idea like that's uh You know, so I just think it's a huge it is a huge thing and when you really see how how different it is in history um You can see why are are these little monkeys that we are Have a are having a problem processing it. Well, obviously women are having a problem processing it too It's not just men. Obviously like women are getting a like I always say like feminism created jobs women to also create a tinder You know, like you also created a lot of women getting used like, you know, and and treated like garbage Uh, so it there were two there were unintended consequences with that technology That's one of my biggest complaints about feminism is like everything they've done from day one has been done with Basically zero respect for future consequences unintended consequences like It's not like they're like, hey, let's have women go into the workplace and let's before we do that Let's sit down and talk about what the actual consequences of this could be Is it is this a good idea? Is it a bad idea? They just like went and fucking did it and voting too Like is woman voting a good thing or a bad thing? I don't think this got like really serious debate. They're just like yeah, let's just do it It's good. Everybody else shut the fuck up. Well, I think there was I think it's just wiped from history I mean there were a lot of I have some old men's magazines like actually here I've had them for years and they're men's magazines from like the 30s and they're like Here's a really good women reason why women shouldn't go to work They were like there were dudes saying that back then Uh, they were just like, you know, like we don't acknowledge their voices anymore Like they were no longer there. No, they they were on the wrong side of history They've been memory old memory old. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean it was obviously most men It said that, you know, like but it's one of these things like, you know, like Vaccines or whatever, you know, like, you know, like politicians decide that that was going to happen and then it happened and uh, so And I've always said with feminism it's the the negative impacts on regular women has been huge because like, yeah, and I had an old boss a female boss who said it like she she was uh You know in la and she she uh Just like this feminism was a crazy crazy thing. I just want to stay home and work on my plants And I have to come here and talk to you guys at work You know, I have to sit and do this paperwork and to recruit these and do this corporate bullshit Uh, you know, but women have to work now. They don't have a choice, you know, like so like for regular women, you know, like There's women who have to go to walmart every day and and stand in the checkout line. That's their feminine That's I I'm free and like that's what I'm doing and that's about with my life great Yeah, most work sucks. That's why they pay you for it, you know, like that's that's Men knew that for all of history. Like I wish I didn't have to go to work You know, most men probably felt that way Yeah Richard is a foreigner question I want to ask before you have to go we wrap up here in a minute But in america, you know, the roview weight thing it looks like it's about to get overturned There's this like supreme court leak and all that What is the view as a european and as a brit For a roview weight in general abortion in america basically it being overturned Is there do do brits watch this kind of stuff with fascination and like what the fuck is going on or We watch it, but I think it's one of these issues where Brits are reminded that america is a foreign country to us. We have the same language We consume a tremendous amount of your major and everybody thinks they know america. I I've claimed to you before anthony I don't think even americans really know america. It's such a big Complex country. It could even be considered like a series of many countries in in many ways There's parts of america people just forget about where people are living And it just they just are off the map because they're not it's a very strict It's a strange place But brits think they know it and then things like this come up Everybody's looking at each other going. What are they? What are they even arguing about? What is what is this and why is it such a divisive issue? Because most brits don't have a strong opinion on it and it's not It it it doesn't lead to you being put into a camp in america. It does You have this opinion or that opinion and when you do there is a consequence You are now on one side of a debate or the other Um and the abortion law is like in britain. How easy is it to get an abortion in britain? It's it's pretty easy to get an abortion. I I imagine You know with I don't know what the law is but say if you go for the morning after pill And you go to the same doctor two or three times inside of six months because it's not good for you I don't know whether you would be nowadays if you would officially be told off But you wouldn't previously from girlfriends This is the way it happened in the past when I was very young and irresponsible They're on dog lives matter They would get scowled at or totted at because that's not the way you're supposed to take a big a big load of of estrogen But yeah, as far as I know, it's well, it's it's definitely legal and yet it's it's easy interesting I'm going to have to go gentlemen. I'm terribly sorry two hours and 30 minutes is absolutely flown by Yeah, wow. Yes, it's been yeah, it's been almost two and a half hours. You should probably wrap up richard. I appreciate your time Thank you. I appreciate your time as well. Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna do it talking to you both guys Yeah, thank you richard Richard see you soon Jack, appreciate you being here doing to do another quick pitch you guys can meet everybody watching myself and mr. Jack donovan You can actually see him at the top here At the 21 convention 16 year anniversary to make men alpha again this october 14th to 17th innerland of florida Um jack, and I've said you're gonna be following up on your speech recently at a man on caged event in california and expanding on more of those ideas So look forward to you know having you there. Um, I like every year man's pretty awesome. Have you at the event one of my favorites So everyone watching go to 21 studios.com get tickets now And you know, I said on twitter you sized today. I think jack of the tweet I put out But I said that because it annoys me in the man's sphere that people talk like saving lives saving lives It's like this weird codependency daddy stuff. Yeah, but but for me it's like When I was in the man's sphere as a kid it was more about changing your life And I think that's a lot healthier and I think that's what you want to see men do too Is you want to see them take action to change Things in their real life about themselves about their future their mission their goals And the event to me is kind of a a premier Um force for that and you're a big part of that and all the speakers and it's it's a real life physical event with real action And real change and you got to show the fuck up So yeah, yeah, exactly. It's not another it's not another zoom meeting Yeah, you have to be there and you get to hang out and someone always ends up getting drunk with jack donovan So I that's that's like a tradition. So That'll probably happen again. Maybe you Yeah, but Yeah, or big tickets. Yeah jack appreciate being here. Everybody else watching too There are links to jack's website in the description of this video beneath it and richard granon And I think jack spoke I put there too fire in the dark. If not, go to amazon.com get fire in the dark Jack appreciate your time See you soon everybody else