 Salam and welcome to a brand new presentation from the NewsClick Sports Desk. This is Play Things and we've got with us our very reticent, very camera shy sports editor. But in the spirit of things, it's a new season. We seem to have developed our own protocols to counter the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic. And we have Leslie Xavier back in the studio with us to start off what we hope will be the weekly conversations around the biggest stories in Indian sport. Leslie, how are you doing? It's good to be back. And yeah, good to talk about sport other than over phone and Zoom calls, hours of gang and all those things. I believe we'll time this so we should be crisp and to the point as much as possible. So taking three to four to five stories depending on how busy the week is, four to five minutes on each story. And we're starting off by writing on Smithi Mandana's excellent ton in the test that is currently going on day two of the test match. What's the update on that? Did you watch any of it? And how is that team shaping up? What are the key issues that are facing women's cricket? Of course it's great to see one of her players scoring a ton and it happens to be the first ton by a woman cricketer in Australia test. Of course the woman test matches as such is pretty rare too. And it's highest test score by an Indian woman as well. So great show by Mandana, great on many counts considering also the fact that they hardly get any matches to play. And the direct comparison should be made to the Australian women who are playing because they get their domestic season. They'll be big batch league, shorter format for sure, but any format would do. So if you look back at the last two years, of course we all know how many matches the men have played. They've gone through almost two IPLs, the second IPL, I mean just getting over. And they've had multiple series, home, abroad. And while the women just before lockdown hit across the world, they reached the finals of the World T20, which they lost. And that was March 8 and from March 8 to 2021 February, they never had any international matches as such. And the only matches that they got, the elite Indian cricketers were the three IPL matches which was thrown to them in the Middle East, in Abu Dhabi. More like HRT or whatever. So that's the state of game. So before the test match, Indian cricketers, the senior cricketers were quoted different news sources, news agencies that they would like to play the longer format domestically. They want to play the red ball game domestically so that when a one-off test or such test series, you can't call it a series again, it's a one-off match. So when such matches happen, it's not like they're getting in and surprised. And having said that, with the surprise element or with the lack of experience and they are playing pink ball as well. So they are faring quite well. They are in a good position on day two where the play was curtailed because of the thunderstorm there. They have lost five wickets and we are more or less looking at a game that will last a distance. Very important because pink ball tests don't last. And so the Indian men's team can probably look at how the women are playing, how they adapted towards this game and see where they're doing wrong. Because Australians have always, the men's team have always done great in pink ball cricket. So doing well in that format without any experience, going in and playing, that shows a lot of, I mean that shows how much of character we have the women cricketers. That's that we need to do better for them. The BCCI should do better for them. Yeah, it was an interesting and surprising thing actually for us, we were talking on our show for 20 grams about football and we did a sort of pandemic report relating to women's football and what's been happening in India. And of course, many of us who are involved with football were talking about how little has happened on the women's front. And our colleague and senior journalist Charda Ogra was on that show and she was saying, what are you guys talking about? At least something is happening, at least conversations are happening. Cricket may, which we assume, being such a rich sport, the BCCI being one of the richest sports bodies in the world, the assumption from the outside is that structural issues will not take place in this kind of a scenario, which is not at all seems to be the case. Yeah, I just spoke about the elite Indian cricketers that way. So what about the domestic players who are there, the upcoming players also? So this has created quite a bit of, I mean, BCCI claims and possibly rightfully also in the last few years, women's cricket have come up. The cricketers have come up for sure, but I'm not sure about women's cricket as such because the system is so, I would say, ad hoc in a way with the limited structure that is there for the women's game in the country, which is now being ignored. I don't know how we will be able to create the next line of players for the country because we are looking at quality players, right? It's not like names to fill in the roster. So that's suffered and also what is suffering is something that football is going through at this moment, whether young players would want to come into play cricket. If they feel that they don't have a future in it, career-wise as well as in the game, in the game. So I had a former India International this last year, the discussion I had with her early last year before lockdown around the time of the World Cup, in fact. And she has retired from international in the sense she was the east out of the team. She must be in her early thirties and she has no idea what she's going to do because domestically, there's not much room for women to play. And she wants to get into commentating, unsure about that. So that's the thing, lack of clarity for an international player. You can only imagine what happens down the chain. Fair enough. It's our first day. So you will forgive us that we have violated our own rules. It's our very first story. We had to talk for 4-5 minutes. I think it's already been 10 minutes. But what can we do? Mandala deserves it. She definitely does. I don't know whether you and I deserve this much time. But moving on to the next story, which is also cricket related. And this is a new thing for us because I definitely am nowhere close to being educated on the subject. But we're talking about Chris Gale and his exit from the IPL bubble. What is bubble fatigue? We're not talking about the IPL. We're just talking about the bubble and him deciding that for the sake of his own mental wellness. He has decided to exit the bubble and recuperate, recover and prepare for the upcoming ICCT 20 World Cup. Is that correct? Yes, exactly. So Chris Gale's journey in the past few months has taken its toll I would say because he was with the West Indies national team bubble. And then he was in the Caribbean Premier League bubble. After that he came directly to the Middle East to the IPL bubble. And then now after this he'll be going to the T20 World Cup bubble. So finally he got sick of bubbles. I mean you have been in a bubble in that sense, football bubble. So I believe it's a regimentation that gets to you, the routine and also the control that the people, the support staff around you have as far as how your day goes. So that eventually gets to you. And for a player like Chris Gale, who as free as he is in his ways, about in and outside the pitch, these are the kind of players who get probably readily more affected by this than players. So it's very clear, right? We have different personalities within a team. But I'm glad that someone has come out and by stepping out of the bubble brought this into attention. Because when we talk about playing out the IPL season or when we talk about players going to the UK or going to the World Cup to play and all that, we talk in terms of teams and COVID protocols and COVID safety and all that. But we never consider factors such as these where the mental well-being of the player is in question. And that directly affects the game, the quality of the game. It also at some point will affect his physical well-being as well. So I guess over the course of the pandemic and this probably you can shed some light how the football teams are managing abroad because I believe they don't operate in a bubble as such. And so we are talking about professional sport being played through the year. And probably it's about time that our agencies which conduct leagues should look at how to ease the players' suffering. If at all we can call it a suffering inside the bubble. Oh man, you are widening the scope of the conversation considerably but I'll attempt to answer as quickly as possible. I mean, I think firstly I agree with you completely. I'm glad that someone as much stature as Chris Gale has come out and done this because the attitude towards athletes, towards sports people is that they should put their head down, do the hard work and keep going. What we are I think we fail to consider many times is that you are being forced to play these 300 days of cricket in a year. Not because you are getting better at the game that you are playing, not because your country needs you. But because there is a lot of money riding on these games and the more amount of game time you get on television the more money everyone makes outside of the system. Of course the players also get some part of it. But it's a well-known fact how little of the entire BCCI or ICC chunk actually goes down to the player level. So that's one part. The second part is yeah definitely there needs to be a calendar. So when you compare football firstly one major difference is that all of these European leagues, all of the football that's played in the global north has very different connotations. One is that mainland Europe travel is much easier. The kind of access to medical care to vaccines, all of that is much better for them than the rest of the world. As we've seen I think 80% of all the vaccines available in the world have gone to these 10 countries. So they operate in a completely different scenario and each of them is multi-millionaire at that level. So they can build a bubble around themselves wherever they go. As we saw when for example Messi moved from Barcelona to Paris. So it's just that that entire entourage bubble entire system just picks itself up and transplants itself as well. So comparisons with football I think are tough to make in the cricket context. But we should, cricket should remember where it comes from, where its base lies. And kind of factor those elements in. Not just use our players and athletes as sort of yes no doubt well-paid labour. But just labour that can just keep producing, keep producing irrespective of what's going on around them. And I think in our approach to how we also deal with when players make statements like this. A little bit more sensitivity can be a good thing. I believe that is what this fatigue or a version of it is what led to the COVID-19 situation when India were touring in the UK. Towards the end of it. So it was a long-term world test championship and then the limited overs matches and then the test series. So ultimately people started easing off a little it happens and that's a reality also right. So fatigue means it's not necessarily player breaking down it could be the entire system collapsing. Complacency does set in no doubt. So anyway we'll leave that at that. I think one of the things we can also propose since this is the first show that we are doing. Any of the topics that we cover on this bulletin format particularly appeals to you and you want us to do a more in-depth conversation around that. Please write in in the comments. Let us know what you want to hear more of so that we can also tailor these conversations somewhat to cater to what your not needs but your wants are. Because after all we all play things of alien forces. All right. That was nicely done. I'll give myself a pat on the back for that. But so okay so from a temporary exit from a bubble we are now talking about a more permanent exit from a bubble of a different sort. So our next story we're talking about hockey and the spate of retirements back to back that have come about senior players. Kind of calling time in a sense on their own international careers. Their careers playing for India representing India. We've seen Birendra Lakra, Rupinder Pal Singh both members of the bronze medal winning team at the Tokyo Olympics recently as well as SV Sunil. One of the most talented some people would say one of the most gifted forwards that Indian hockey has produced in the recent past. At least this generation of players let's not get into comparison with others. All of them Sunil not so much retiring but hockey India coming out with a tweet immediately after congratulating him and wishing him a happy retirement. So as far as all practical purposes are concerned it's the end of SV Sunil in India colours as well. What is bringing about this kind of Dharadhar chain reaction? It's surprising actually. It's shocking, surprising whichever way you want to present that interpreted talking. It's an interpretation I'm thinking about. So I would like to believe that when a player wins a medal especially if he's, I mean for instance Rupinder Pal is just 30 and Lakra is 31. Sunil 32. Sunil 32. But Sunil I mean I'm talking about these two because they are medalists and so they are, I mean if I win an Olympic medal I will be invincible for the next 10 years. At least I'll tell myself that I can't retire now. So there is this again so on one side there is this concept of giving it, calling it a day on a high, going out on a high or whatever. But as a professional athlete 30 is not an age to retire. And it's not like these two players Sunil also now I will get Sunil into the mix as well. They have all had injuries but any sports person in the modern era will have injuries. So that's a given. If you're playing at the high level you will have major injuries as well. Sports science, performance science are in that stage that players are bringing from the junior ranks into the national system, into an elite system, elite level is an investment in itself. So Hockey India also giving up on these players and happily saying happy retirement is surprising in itself because they don't understand what they are losing out. Because you have invested eight, nine years off the setup that you're created for player building, nurturing and maintaining. And then just letting them go and I mean wherever they would continue playing maybe for their domestic employers in the domestic circuit maybe some club. But it doesn't serve Indian hockey at all. So these are elite players like you rightly said as well. S.P. Sunil one of the best players is a treat to watch. Fit, fittest in the mix. What a brain he has. So wouldn't the youngsters find it better? Because if you look at the common element in these statements that these players have given out they all say that we are giving way for youngsters. They are not saying that we are retiring because I have an injury or I can't play anymore. So giving way for youngsters is done better if they are in that mix, in the camp system, in the outer camp, I mean in the larger pool of players. And they are there, they play that the youngsters fight and I mean it's sport we are talking about and sport you don't just give up on yourself. Yeah, there is always a shelf life for an athlete but as far as modern science and sports science and the current system is 30 is not an age to retire at all. So that makes us wonder what the larger dynamic is at play and also what, how hockey in general operate about transitioning of one generation to other. How do they plan it because this clearly is not the right way. And this is not exactly the first time at least because these two are medalists and then SV Sunil also announced it around the same time. So there is some kind of statement coming out, attention being given to them. But otherwise if you look at the last 10 years there have been many unceremonious exits and great players, great players. So some of course there are, I mean, multiple sources which spoke about politics and dynamics within hockey India and standing off the particular player with the establishment, with the bosses of the establishment. And others maybe because they don't fit into the team system but probably hockey India should treat their players well. We are talking about players who have played 200 plus matches for the country and or another part is that utilize them for a larger good of Indian hockey at least briefly. And the other point that would help them is the players themselves because they would, this would probably act as a bridge for them to be players of the national team playing mentors, mentors, coach. Then that cycle comes like you are feeding into that system. But we have lost many great international players, a brain like SV Sunil potential to lose him as well because he is going out of the system abruptly. At this point I think this is a slightly conjecture or speculation but I also get the feeling that the role that hockey India perhaps envisages for some of these guys is to play hockey in the boardroom and to play a more active role because from all of the statements that you are hearing, the commonality is the thank yous to hockey India for the opportunities that they have been given and no doubt one has to give whatever credit is due there because they have created some kind of a platform because it is a sport that really professionally does not exist in India outside of the national team environment. So these players have benefited from that, from the training, from all the centres that have been established in various places and the care that has been taken. So they have thanked hockey India and I feel like maybe there is an angle that these players will become more active perhaps in their state associations and we will hear more of them in an administrative capacity. But at this point we will leave it at that and we will follow up with this story with you later on as things develop. And I think the last bit that is interesting in this context and this will also feed into our final story of the day which is to talk about the SAF football championships that are actually getting underway in the Maldives today, October 1st. Oh sorry, this show will go out tomorrow so it would have already started by the time we are on YouTube. Which is ageism essentially and this my friends are friends who play football manager will understand this really well. When players start making their full team debuts at the age of 16 and 17, there is very little space then for the 30 year olds. It will become uncles very quickly. I am sure it is something that you have experienced on the playing field yourself. I retired quite young. I retired in my teens. I was just going to say that there has to be other than this very kind of cursory or superficial understanding of when a player is young enough or too old, must be thought of in a more holistic manner I think because we have plenty of examples around the world of top level athletes, men, women playing well into their 30s and in fact some of them achieving some of their best on-field performances later on in life. I think I will be the end of this. We don't have to look too far. No seriously but he is a doubles player and he is probably oversteady welcome in the Olympic setup. But the way he takes care of his fitness is phenomenal. So I am saying every professional athlete does that. So the classic example is the Italian system where player longevity was given because the club takes care of their health. The famous Milan lab. So again for the club it is beneficial also. It is an investment that they made and they are squeezing everything out of that without killing the body and the mind of the player. So this idea that at 30 or done with is something very wrong. I don't know what has created it. Maybe like you said with youngsters academies pumping in more younger players. And then this again we have discussed ourselves when we plan shows and all that how to target younger audience. Young star, young fan. Direct correlation. So clubs also slowly gyrate towards that. Unless of course you are dealing with someone like Ronaldo or anything. Yeah. Probably the only 30 year old in this Indian football team that is in the Maldives. So it's business related but again sound business sense would be the other way around. Sound football sense or sound sports sense would be the other way around. And we are specifically talking about team dynamics. But individual sport it's a different ball game altogether that way. The dynamics at play because you have a federal still playing in his prime. You have Nadal who is unbeatable. Provided he doesn't have some kind of injury issues that way. So. Nova Kulde siri. Yeah. So it's it's that. Carriers sporting carriers. Probably in certain aspects and this I'll talk about the defenders who retired from the hockey India setup. Rupinder and Lakr and your next and Sunil as well that. After 30 is when a defender or a goalkeeper measures. And because the game understanding all these things. It's the peak reading of the game all these things. So. It's it's it's it's a sin to actually call. I mean let them retire. If you if I can say that if you're believing or. Asserting that the decision was theirs. Otherwise yeah. Indian football team you mentioned. Sunil Chetri is playing his scoring goals. Breaking records and and. Quite consistently also at the club also he plays well. He has been particular about his fitness. Absolutely. And. Indian team heading into the soft games. It's it's off season. That way. So. This would probably be the. Buildup for them. Game wise towards the ISL. But at the same time it's also a crucial. Tournament for Steve March because. From qualifying for the FIFA World Cup to qualifying for the. I'm trying to qualify for the Asian Cup. To a phase saving. Victory at the South games because this would. Probably two counts. One silverware comes in. And secondly is statistics as a coach. Might. Improve as well so. What is exactly at stake for India at the. South Cup because for me. Being a sports journalist. And a football fan. Who doesn't cover football. I see it as a very redundant tournament. If at all India is claiming to be. Aspiring. Yes. And no. Yes. That. These kind of. Hyper regional tournaments. I mean firstly. There is. The fact that if you look at Afghanistan for example. When some very recently left. The South Asian Football Federation and joined the. I think West Asian Central. Yeah. So that they get more regular games against. Higher ranks. Higher ranks. Yeah. Right. Because India have over the years if you look at. Let's say the 1520 years that. I have been covering football. India's performances at the South Asian level have. Not. I mean you would assume. That if everything was directly proportionate to the amount of investment. That comes in. Then India's results at the South Asian level should have gone through the roof. Yeah. That has not been the case. At the same time it is relevant because one is that. We should I think. Always maintain. Friendly relations with the countries in our neighborhood. Football is. I think a universal language. In that sense everyone is a fan almost. Everyone follows the sport. And it allows. Countries from a region that is otherwise quite diverse. Sometimes can be politically very volatile. To find some kind of common meeting ground. So I think these tournaments do have value. Whether they have a value at that elite level in terms of. Doing the best for. A potential national team that is looking to do something at the continental. Or the global level we are not there yet. Firstly we shouldn't assume that because we are not there yet. Recent results have clearly shown that even in the. Friendlies that we played against Nepal. Recently. It was one draw and one narrow single goal margin victory. So. I think. The general big brother approach that India has in the region. Has also kind of taken hold in the football sense. But all the other countries are demonstrating to us that you are not. Necessarily big brother we are all. Very much at power with each other. It's just that you have managed to evolve a system based on. An inflow of capital. Through the ISL and other means. That our players are today much better paid than players in other countries. But that doesn't necessarily mean that on the pitch. There's very much to differentiate between the two. And what just connecting it back to the ageism point. We have seen in the recent past that there is this. Even at lack of ideas and thought particularly in the midfield and central midfield area. Because all of these young players who are coming through. An academy model that is kind of photocopied from one another. It's a blueprint academy model. They are all being trained to play in particular positions. In a particular style so there's a lot of focus on of course physical fitness. There's a lot of focus on speed. There's a lot of focus on wing play. Right. But technique is as a result being neglected. Footballing intelligence because as we've talked about many many times. The number of games that players are getting out very little. The only way to develop like you were saying in the context of Rupinder or Sunil. Having played those 200 300 games. That's how your game intelligence develops. Which in a footballing context is definitely not happening. So if nothing else going back to your question about the relevance of the SAF championships. It's great that India will India's men's team and now the women are also in Dubai. They will also play some friendlies. But the men's team will at least get four fixtures against competitive teams of almost a similar level. And hopefully then they make it through the final and we have a chance to celebrate some silverware. The dynamic is different from hockey in many ways. Football dynamic. So I feel that here the the stance that I would take would be to send a 123 side. Why because that's the those are the players I mean we are looking at future that way right. So the full strength national squad is of course they also need sadly they also need match time. But the younger players don't get as much match time even in the ISL. They're benched. They come in. So so this would be an ideal situation for them to play a make their international debut. So get some international play time. And secondly play as a unit and figure out other things. So as far as match time is concerned a younger sending a younger team a junior team or a under 20 team. Because that's the that's the side that would play in. I mean if I don't India senses team they can play in the Asian games next. So why not look in that direction and build from the AFF in the context of staff. I know it's it's not I mean elite level football tournament. And so but still it's competitive and Indian under 23 players are not too far away and the seniors. There are many things that they need development. But yeah. Yeah. So to a large extent I think the team is made up of young players. Yeah. And the under 23 AFC qualifiers also coming up. So I think steam match and the think tank are looking at it from that perspective. So you will see quite young younger young squad. Yeah. I think maybe a two or three players who are in key positions aside. Mostly we will see younger younger players playing. So so that bit of approach is there. But for me it kind of conflicts with the reality. Yeah. Which is that that we need to have that kind of quality. And what the many things that for example Sunil brings to the pitch which you only get through doing things again and again and learning from that process. Anyway we will be of course at 420 grams covering the SAF championship closely. We'll have daily shows. Sorry I keep looking at the screen. I should be looking at the camera. But we will be covering the SAF championship India matches particularly in detail on 420 grams. The first of those shows will be a preview show that you can watch on October 3rd which is Sunday I think that will be on our YouTube channel and news clicks YouTube channel as well. Meanwhile we've gone well over time so we're going to wrap up this first episode of play things here with Leslie. Thanks for joining us Leslie. I mean good to have you back. Pleasure. And yeah let us know write in comment like subscribe or if you don't like tell us that as well. Thank you for watching. Stay safe. See you soon.