 Good Mental Health, a podcast series that examines the tweets of Dr. Neal Maranello. He's a behavior expert with near six decades exploring the human condition. Currently a life coach in Woodstock, Vermont, I'm joined by the good doctor for this series. We appreciate his insights here. A reminder you can follow the doctor on Twitter at coach Dr. Neal. Today's topic is pretty much an extension of our last two podcast topics. Again, we're really talking here about how perception informs reality. And this today's topic is sort of an extension of last week. If you remember last week, we said there's what's real, what's not real, and what we perceive to be real. And today's topic is reality exists, but meaning is interactive. Dr. Neal, why don't you explain the theory behind the tweet for us? Well, when I first heard this topic, it struck me that a couple of anecdotes may help. So let me tell you a story or two. True stories. I was at the, my wife was in charge of the Norman Williams Public Library here in Woodstock. And I was at the library gala many, many years ago. And the gala was the big moneymaker for the library supported for it. And we were sitting there at a big dinner and there were other couples sitting at our table. And one of the women sitting next to me asked me what I did. And I told her I was a shrink. And she immediately reacted to say, oh, you know, I had the most horrible experience with a shrink I've ever had. And I said, well, tell me about it. And she said, well, first off, I work here in Woodstock and I had to go all the way to Springfield. And I immediately started getting a little question mark in my head because I was working in Springfield. And she said it was many years ago. And I only saw the guy once and it was a horrible experience. And I began saying, I have a feeling that it was me. At the same time, she was talking about maybe 20 years before and I'm sure I had gained a few pounds in the interim. And she obviously didn't recognize me and I clearly didn't recognize her. And I said, well, what happened? And she said, well, my lawyer recommended that I see this guy and I went into his office and he put me through this horrible experience. He had me changing chairs and pretending to be my boyfriend and pretending to be myself. And I had to switch chairs. You may remember some of this Gestalt process that was developed by Fritz Pearls. And I said, well, what was the problem? She said, well, I kept having this series of boyfriends that were all alcoholics and they were all mistreating me. And it was a terrible experience. And I was doing it for a musty an hour. I couldn't even go back to work for the next week. And I said, well, did you see him again knowing the answer? And she said, no, of course, John, I never wanted to see that guy again. And I said, well, who's the guy that you're with? Oh, that's my husband. We've been married long, oh, about 15 years. I said, does he drink? She said, no. And clearly part. Yeah. So I have to be careful about whether it's appropriate to demonize me or not in certain circumstances. The other thing that that occurred to me in regard to this topic, reality exists and meaning is interactive, is a story that somebody told me. And remember, I'm 77 years old. I've been around for quite a while. And I'm virtually the only person with a doctorate degree in psychology who has operated within 20 miles of Woodstock for many years now. And this guy had seen me in the late 80s, and he came back to see me after many years. He had referred cases to me, but he saw me maybe half a dozen times and then didn't see me for at least a quarter century and came back and saw me about another problem that he had. And he said, Neil, you know, you told me a story that changed my life. And I said, oh, that's interesting. What was the story? And he proceeded to tell me a story that I didn't recognize. And about halfway through the story, I realized what the story was I had originally told him because it was an actual experience I had had. And I realized that the story that he had changed and the ways in which he had changed the story had depended on the situations he found himself in. And so every time he found himself in a situation where he had to make a decision, he remembered the story and he changed the story a little bit. And by the time he told it to me again, it was virtually unrecognizable. And I was trying to figure out, OK, so what did he actually get from the sessions with me? And I realized probably all he got was my intention. My intention was to help him. And he would change the story in a way that would help him to make the right decision in each situation. Again, the meaning that someone gives to their experience with me is quite different in both of those situations. And it's absolutely far from what I perceive as the truth. Of course, there's also my perception, my memory of the story may be distorted also. But the reality is that we would need a videotape of the sessions I had with those people, as we've talked about before, and we'd have to watch them a whole bunch of times. Right. And, you know, what's coming up for me again is that this nihilism, if I can call it that, this tweet is really sort of just another way of saying what we've been saying pretty much throughout the series is that, you know, there is a fundamental reality out there, even though each of us lives within our own reality, within that larger context of, hey, we're on a planet. It's the third planet from the sun. It has gravity. And, you know, these are realities, if you will. But it's how we significant everything within our own reality and what it means for us. And I've been watching a lot of some content on the IDW in intellectual dark web. And Brett Weinstein and Heather Hine just came out with this really great new book called A Hundred Gatherers Guide to Navigating the 21st Century. And it and it's talking about how we as homo sapiens are being faced with this incredible amount of change, so much so that what our pathology is from a anthropological mindset. We're sort of being overwhelmed because the amount of change is so much that we can't keep up with it, which may be indicative of some of the psychoses that we see in our society today. And so that's why I think, you know, what we're talking about here. Is sort of even more important because it is about trying to develop this self aware framework. As to how to go out into that reality that is constantly in the midst of this change. And how do we make sense of it all. Yeah, yeah, there's no question, but that just in the last few years, there's been this exponential growth in the flooding of information to our minds. And everybody, as we've talked about before, has a different way of thinking and understanding how that way of thinking is affected by the data that we're exposed to. I mean, I remember my wife, who was the nurse at Woodstock High School for about a quarter century, talking about how with a particular student, the idea came up of communicating with her mother and my wife suggested they do it by email. And the student looked at my wife and said, that's so 20th century. Mind you, they don't know what a dial up phone is or. So the exponential growth of and the flooding of data that's happening with the internet results in people interpreting the data that they see in various ways and twisting it in ways which suit their own particular way of thinking. And if that way of thinking has been distorted by things that they were told as they were growing up, and we've talked about how people get stuck at different ages and stages of life. Then we went into the same problem that we've talked about before the taking the ball running the wrong way with it and scoring a touchdown for the other team type of thinking, which is happening all the time now. It's happening. You can't watch any TV news show without being exposed to unbelievable amounts of distortion coming from the particular spin that that comes from the way of thinking of the person who's telling the story. So, we are looking at the fact that the world is completely different and the ways in which people are thinking is have not changed, except by virtue of the way they interpret the data that's being presented to them. Yeah, reality exists, meaning is interactive. That's the topic for our podcast session here today, Dr. Neil Maranello behavior expert near six decades exploring the human condition. He's tweeting on Twitter, you can follow the doctor at coach Dr Neil. I'm currently working as a solutions focus like coach in Woodstock for month. More thoughts Neil on reality being real, existing but meaning is interactive. You know, I'm certainly reminded of people who might be in institutions where they might have a compromised sense of reality. And might be under medication that itself, which might cause its own reality. So, well, I've worked in a lot of mental hospitals in various times. And I think there are very few mental hospitals in the Boston area that I didn't work in when I was living in Cambridge. And at the same time, it really does come down to interactions in terms of person to person talking. And when someone when I'm talking to someone I am looking for understanding how they think. Well, often this business I was the lowest of the low, a psychiatric aid. And I've talked before about the situations I had where I was asked to special quotes, meaning spend the entire shift with one person, and you can't spend eight hours with one person understanding some of how they think. And without them understanding some of how I think. And so the interaction winds up determining what their perception of reality is. There are specialing one woman who was diagnosed as manic and wound up getting shock treatments to treat her mania. And I had specialed her for quite a while. And about 15 years later, I was checking into a hotel with my wife. And this woman walks up to me and says, are you Neil Maranel. And I said yes and she said I thought I recognized your voice. I haven't seen her or had any contact with her for over 15 years, but something in the interaction that she and I had had a drop the nickel. I remember talking to the old, the minister of my church. He and I worked together for 15 years. And I remember saying to him at one point what's your, what's your theology, his name was Daniel Jantos. And, and I said, you know, when you and I get together, which was, you know, once every couple of weeks, we just talk about the relationships in the church. And he said, Well, I don't think that my theology goes much further than that. My theology basically comes down to my relationships with people. One or with the congregation. So, this particular topic. Maybe a summary of all we've talked about. Yeah, yeah. And, and that's sort of what I feel is, is, you know, we sort of briefly chatted before we started here today, in that it brings up a theme that I feel is prevalent throughout your teachings if I can call them that and that is, again, it's how we relate it, which is our in essence our reaction to our surroundings. And so one of the things that I've been trying to practice for, you know, a while now is how to be more stoic. And that is to not be swayed by my emotions. And that isn't to say that I'm trying to deny my emotions. It's quite contrary. It's actually trying to be separate enough to be able to recognize them from what they are in a way that it's not going to sway me to some sort of reaction that in itself may cause another series of cascading events. I think that there's something weird about me with regard to what you're talking about because I get in touch with my emotions, often after interacting with somebody. I spend a lot of time alone, I do a lot of meditating, and I get a lot of what I call ah-has, which are awarenesses of what was actually going on in my interaction with so and so. I got a few of those thinking about our relationship. It really comes down to the fact that when I'm talking to someone, I feel like I'm channeling. What comes out of my mouth doesn't really have much to do with what I'm feeling and what I'm feeling I get in touch with after the fact. And in trying to trace that, looking at my own pathology, at my own history, I realized that it probably stems back to when I was 15 years old and taking a summer school course in American history. And that course was being taught. Now remember this is like in 1960, 1959. This course was being taught by a woman who was a disciple of Joe McCarthy. Very few people remember Joe McCarthy, but he was the guy who created the House Un-American Activities Committee, and went after an awful lot of very famous actors, actresses and writers calling them communists. And Joe believed that he was a hero, a wonderful man. At the same time, I'm taking this course over the summer because I don't have room for taking an American history course that I need. And virtually everybody else in the course was somebody who had flunked the course previously. And the woman is espousing a philosophy and a way of looking at the way the world is happening, which I saw as quite distorted. I wound up getting into arguments with her in the class, there were about 30 people in the class and I'm sure that they were being very entertained by the fact that this woman and I were crossing swords. In the middle of that class at one point, I was taken out of the class, taken home and told that my father had died. At which point I think I went into some sort of shock. I know I wasn't aware of any feelings that I was having. And we didn't understand it. It probably took me in some ways it took me 10 years to figure out what the two immediate reactions were that I had, which were basically first, you know how dare he die on me. And it was very inconsiderate of him I needed him. The second was if one of my parents had to die I wish had been my mother, both of which were so unacceptable that I forgot about him for 10 years. At any rate, I go back after, you know, a few days to my American history class with this teacher, and she says, you know, I really need to talk to you. And I got together with her and she said I felt so terrible. We were arguing and then you found out your father died and I feel really guilty about that. And I'm looking at her like, where the hell do you come from. And I went through has nothing to do with that nothing to do with the fights we had. And yet here she was, you know, a real human being feeling horrible about the fact that she was getting into fights with me about something that had nothing to do with what had happened in my life. Again, the same issue reality exists. And what the reality was was that I was knocked to the mat by my father's death. But the interactive aspect of her relationship with me was completely changed from her point of view. It had virtually no effect on me in fact I think it may have been the start that that particular experience may have been the start of my separating out my emotional reactions from reality, I could then say okay well what's really going on here, try to do what you're talking about be stoic step back, see it. Say whatever feels right at the time, and then check it out afterwards. Well, and, you know, on that point, you know as you're talking I mean that it is bringing up just that for me and that one thing I've noticed about myself is that there will often be an initial reaction. And my nature is probably one that some might say is negative and that I will say no to a new idea or something will just give that as an example. Maybe two to three days later after I've had a chance to ruminate on it or to explore it and to again be separate of the emotion that decision may come around 180 degrees to be like no you're right, I agree. I see the position now and you're right. So that's why in a sense I, if I can get there quicker, you know that would always be the hope. Yeah, it's very difficult to process things because again we're talking about conscious subconscious interaction, and the conscious mind very seldom accepts the fact that the subconscious is 100% on its side. The conscious mind gives the orders. And often the order is I don't want to think about that. And so the subconscious has to find some sneaky way to get through to the conscious mind, it can't be direct. It has to be through a dream or through some sort of aha, or if you happen to spend a substantial amount of time alone as I do. I end up getting these flashes of Oh, that's what that's what was that's what was going on. I think that in, in my experience, the only real emotion that I am aware of when I'm talking to someone is this kind of time to get into action emotion. Some combination of mad and scared I think there's definitely a glad involved. I'm not aware of any sad, but at any rate there are times when I'm talking to someone when suddenly I'm energized, and I'm opening my mouth and things are coming out and I don't know what I'm going to say until it's already come out. Afterwards, I look at it and I say, why did I say that. My subconscious provides the answer. Is there a better way for me to say that. I'm getting better at it lately there aren't that many better ways I think that. Yeah, yeah. Dr. Maranello on this podcast series good mental health our topic for today's session is reality exists, meaning is interactive and you know why don't you wrap up and give us a final thoughts on this topic. The reality, I believe, is something that can only be approached through constant examining and re examining the experiences that one has, and examining it from every perspective. I feel like I can see reality when I can see myself as others see me when I can interpret what goes on in my interaction with someone as that person that I was talking to was interpreting it. And it takes quite a while to get to that point but once you get there. I feel like, aha. I can understand the meaning of the reality of the interaction that I had with that person. That's why when I'm trying to understand what your experiences, I'm asking you what the experience was of the person that you were talking to you were dealing with. And if you get inside that person's head, then you can see reality more clearly. And that's a tremendous awareness to be able to get to that and, and you know when I follow Eckhart totally you know he talks about if you're to kind of you know just silence yourself for a moment. And if you can feel your heartbeat and feel your breath. You are aware. And then you become aware of you being aware. And there's a third awareness that is aware of you being aware of you being aware and that's sort of what I feel you're talking about here is, you know to be able to disengage and yet connect with a another viewpoint, which has to come from something else. Right. You know what the subconscious, but some people can call it the unconscious some people call it God, some people call it your soul. All I know is it's so complicated that that the only way to get at it is through a simple way of looking at things. So for example, in my reductionistic way, I define meditation as giving your conscious mind a stupid job to do. So if you have a mantra, say the silly syllables over and over again. And when you realize you're not saying them, then you start saying them again. That's the stupid job for your conscious mind to do. Meantime you're so you're freeing up your subconscious to get those messages through whatever way it can. And the meditation that I most commonly do is a form of biofeedback, which is just putting my fingertips together and being aware of my pulse. I can feel my pulse. And at the same time, whenever I am not aware of my pulse, I'm not doing my job. So my conscious mind has to be aware of my pulse. Meantime I might go when I'm doing that for minutes, or even hours without knowing that I'm not focusing on my pulse. Because what's happening is there's a flow through taking place between the subconscious and the conscious. And as long as the conscious trusts my subconscious, I get whatever it is I get that helps people. And I can, you know, offer just a similar thing. It's, you know, sometimes I might just find myself in front of the TV and I'll start zoning off and almost entering sleep, if you're. And I'm now to the point where it's like, I kind of enjoy it because my subconscious takes me on these really interesting adventures in those times, because I'm in a state of awareness, much greater than if I were actually sleeping. Yes. And in fact, many people over interpret things like watching TV, or hypnosis or sleeping or whatever. Basically what's going on there is that if you're watching a TV show or reading a book or whatever, you're being led by somebody. And the person reading you is the writer of the book or the script writer or whatever. And if you're watching there are some TV shows that I watch, and I know, I always get in touch with where the script writers head is at. And I know that, that there's a formula here we're going to get a mystery it's going to get solved in some way, the cops are going to do this at the same time the characters and I'm going along with that. But suddenly I'll stop the TV, and I'll make and I'll come up with a tweet, and they didn't even have any idea that that was what was going on but there's something that was going on in my watching that that triggered a subconscious message. And now I've got the job of doing the, the haiku of the tweet. Meaning that I have a certain number of characters in which I want to get my idea across the simple truth is that the reality of what's going on inside my head is a very real process. And at the same time, there's a reality of what's going on outside my head and there's the reality of the interaction between me and whatever's outside my head. And with the recent stuff where, or anytime you, you buy something from Amazon Google winds up figuring out what it is you like and don't like. There are now as an interactive process between you and what's going on on TV. Oh, thanks to Dr. Neil Maranello here on our podcast series, Good Mental Health where our topic has been reality exists, meaning is interactive. And we'll follow up that topic next week with the meaning anything has is what you give it really just a continuation Neil of what we've been talking here today. You and I have both used the word significant many times. That's not a word. I'm not sure I'm the one that made it up. But I do know that it's the only way I have of simplifying this process we're talking about. Well, we'll learn more about that on our next series until then I'm Matt Kelly on behalf of the good doctor we're both wishing you good mental health.