 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I am Bart van der Zee and I am joined today by jazz Sawyer He is a drummer and educator out of LA and really glad to have him here jazz. How are you, man? Bar fantastic. I really appreciate the show and happy to be here today. Awesome, man I really appreciate that today's topic is something that's really cool and It's just sort of a broad all-encompassing topic that I think we we need to talk about it is an essential thing To this podcast to the world of drumming and that is the history of the drum set basically as we know it today Kind of learning how we got to the point. We're at here right now. That's right. Yeah, man So what got you interested in this? Give us give us a little bit of of your background and then we can hop into the actual history Sure, I was born and raised in San Francisco, California in the Hattasbury district so those of you that don't know that is the Holy Ground of the Grateful Dead, Janice Joplin amongst others So I grew up in that neighborhood and there was a music store down the street from me the Hattasbury music store and a couple frequent folks there was drummer percussionist educator John Santos who was a real instrumental You know helping me to Explore percussion before I kind of knew what it was. So my mom would take me down there and I just hang out and play The drums, you know, but I didn't like the loud part of drums like the rhythm of yeah, you know And yeah, so my parents were hippies during that time. So, you know people were named sky and Jade So that's that's actually my real name man. That's awesome. If you can believe that Serendipity and it's all the coincidence. Exactly. It's all a coincidence that I would end up, you know, studying jazz drumming and performing But really I started taking lessons there at the music store And my parents would take me to you know festivals and San Francisco is really rich in the Bay Area in general for You know street festivals performers, you know all year round, you know, community centers So I was always interested in music didn't have any musicians in my family It's just a big appreciation for and really what I got into drumming was I just basically started playing to Stevie Wonder records You know, yeah on the tape I go to music store get some tapes and kind of just played for fun naturally and When I got into middle school, this is when music programs were actually strong and had resources And I learned, you know percussion, but I also liked the drum set so what really hit me man is when I got a tape from my dad and Believe it was seventh grade of Art Blakey 1958 live repairs. Wow. Yeah, and and that messed me up for a few reasons one It was it was the drummers record. Okay. Yeah, number two. He's the band leader. Yeah And then number three is playing You know, so that just blew me away that I was sold after that And just to move things along in high school is really where it came together. I really started diving into Records and just listening to how they were put together You know the heads the beginnings the endings the setups how to how to accompany But I was also studying, you know, concert percussion snare drums suspended cymbal and what have you And then from there I Entered the San Francisco conservatory prep department and that's just kind of introduces you to sulfage and From there, I would study a little deeper classical percussion Tiffany now it's and so on But also I had I went to school the arts high school in San Francisco So from there I had buddies that were actually playing in the clubs and doing things in particular Playing with a lot of the Cuban musicians. So by 16 I actually, you know studied Conga's and Tambales, and I was playing in the clubs When I wasn't supposed to Saturday night making a little bread and and there's a joke. I Actually try to paint a Mustache on me one time just to get into the club the sky Yeah, they get in the club and it's just like you did good Wow, that's awesome and any and any event I just wouldn't wear a hat Yeah, keep out of the way older people Exactly, so I would place off the gigs on the weekends, but I would all day Saturday I'd take sulfate at the conservatory. So ultimately this would Bring me to further my studies. I ended up joining in 1996 Grammy Jazz Band with a few other folks. So that was a national band. I'd be at all the drummers in the land. Nice Knock I mean, I felt privileged to To be in that band so we got to go to the Grammys and you know get hang out with Quincy Jones The whole night. Wow. So yeah, all of that helped me get to the new school in New York And that's why I really got to study with some of the masters The music and really learn so by that time by 19 I was playing with with Marsalis Touring the road at 20. I was became Abby Lincoln's drummer a great vocalist master National endowment of the arts jazz master She for those of you don't know was married to Max Roach. Oh, wow. I didn't know that and that's where we get the freedom now sweet so During in high school as well. I got to see both Buddy Rich and Max Roach Amongst others performed, you know when I was early. So I would end up seeing Max Roach Few years later in Brazil when he was still playing It was kind of when he was slowing down And he wasn't walking too good and I got to hang out with him a little bit and he said Give me your legs I Borrow your legs, you know, oh man Yeah, but I got to exchange some stories and really got a lot of knowledge Fast forward. I've always been curious about New Orleans. So right around my first and second in New York I decided to kind of make a pilgrimage to New Orleans It's kind of where my name came from, right? Yeah So that led me to diving into the history of the drum set. Okay, and that's where we are today. So We got that out the way. No, I'm kind of where I I came in to the fold if you will. No, that's perfect I I deem you the right man to talk to about this topic from your background Now it's it's good to know people's backgrounds and everything that brings them to this point What we're here to talk about today history of the drum set. Why don't we just kick it off? And and you can you can start it off, man. Okay, great There's when we talk about drumming we have to acknowledge the African diaspora The African diaspora if we know anything about our history of human beings We all start out in Africa and with floors around the world. So that's number one But there's three important things that come out of the African diaspora and again the African diaspora encompasses the people the the culture every the food everything that comes with Developing the community of village. Okay, so that's the African diaspora, but there's three important things Music elements not just for drumming, but we would not be where we are today without these three elements Okay, first one call and response Call and response, right? Yep. You you make a call. Okay pretty self-explanatory, right? Yeah, the second Think of patience now as we define in Western music its accents on the weak beat is the easy way to say it but it's really that You know, no rhythm or beat is unturned, right? There's a purpose for for all of that. Yeah, okay? And the third thing is improvisation Where we get that improvisation is for example when a Jim Bay drummer is following The dancer right and that could be for ceremony. It could be for celebration It could be for a number of different things, but that Improvisation right that movement that that ongoing grip. Yeah, so those are three important elements that we we wouldn't have today in music if if Or are they still exist in music today? So that's what we get from the African diaspora So that's first important Another important element we have to understand or acknowledge is the transatlantic slave trade now obviously we know You know Africans were Exported to different countries And that's just kind of a part of our history that you know, we want to acknowledge. Yeah But what came with that is we People, you know, wasn't all bad in the sense that We all you know exchange cultures Traded commodities things of that nature. So you had South America yet the Caribbean and had Europe Okay So with that and and I'm going to circle this back together between the Latin countries, right? and the Yoruba tribe of Nigeria they would Evolve in Cuba as well Really, and this is where we have the merge we have the development of the Latin pinch Okay, so the the Latin tinge is a phenomenon that is It's just it's born out of the African diaspora, but it's its own flavor It's its own if it's own spices its own soul, right? Yeah And what we get out of the Latin tinge is the clave. Yeah, okay the clave as you know, it's bench means key So, you know, we can't really define You know African between Latin tinge. It's just they're they're both Separate but they're also both Connected as well. Hmm. Okay. So where would we be without the Latin tinge and the clave pattern, okay? The basic 3-2 clave pattern, right? Yep. Shave and a haircut five cents, right? Let's back up a little bit. So the concert snare drum Kind of developed around the 1500s Give or so, but really first rudiment the first rudiment was recorded in 1612 in Basil, Switzerland. Oh my god. This is okay. So far. Oh, yes So for those who don't know the Swiss were actually the first to kind of formalize rudimentary drum rudimentary drumming as we know it in the Western world Okay, so now let's we have don't forget we have our classical Music orchestras so you start to get the appearance of concert snare drums or concert bass drums and again bass drums are just Reflections of kind of indigenous cultures, right drums were used and for different purposes You had a mother drum Which is usually the bigger drum that kind of made the the calls or everything started ending with the mother drum You have the middle drum the Segundo, right? They kind of held that middle part Played their their role and then you had the quinto or the high drum Yeah, which would kind of do more of that call and response and do more of the talking you communicate Yeah, right. So drumming has it has had traditionally had its purpose So there's the different size in a different role. So fundamentally since the beginning there has been let's simplify it There has been a low drum the mother drum the bass drum then there is the higher drum doing more of the The talking and the accenting and all the quote-unquote fancier stuff So that is so true today, but it's just really cool to hear that it's been I mean, it's kind of obvious But that's basically always been there. It's kind of that inherent human nature to have that low note and the higher note and then the middle notes obviously the the tone but It's just built into us, man exactly and you can you can see that with Brazilian drumming the serdos right the big the big bass drums and then you have the Repaniques which are the the small little guys. Yeah, the snare was kind of snare drums. Yeah, it kind of drives the force So yeah drumming It's traditionally has its each different roles, right? Yeah Um, so again, we have to understand too with going back to the transatlantic slaves trade What you have to understand we also had a First version of youtube if you will in terms of the different people that were landing in these different parts So, you know, you had irish men you had english men Landing in the Caribbean, right? So you got to imagine that scene and believe it or not at that time there were you know peasants or street performers You know playing at the docks because you'd have mandarins You'd have, uh, you know funky kind of flutes and things like that going on So you'd actually have street peddlers kind of You know doing a little duo or trio Uh, you know kind of jamming because there wasn't really any formalized You know, that's why street music is kind of its own entity Um, but percussion and drumming again, it was more used at it as a traditional Ceremonial purpose or for like a marching like a formal type of Sure march to this beat, but it wasn't yeah exactly, but it wasn't necessarily performance a situation, right? Yeah now With all that being said There's one place in particular That was a international port So not new york Right, uh, not so much the east coast. I mean, yes, we had the boston tea party Right, we had uh goods coming in. We had sugar and molasses this type of thing, but New orleans lilies the animals the melting pot. So whereas If we look at the east coast, right, we had, um, you know, pretty much africans were Distributed, you know sent to the south and It was pretty straight ahead where they were sent, you know, if there wasn't, um, that freedom And especially with uh other immigrants and people coming in, you know, they they were able to find our jobs But they kind of were recruited if you will What's the way to look at yeah to to farms and they kind of had to build their own, uh, village and kind of settling Wherever they were at but in particular in warlands. This was a melting pot where You had people from all over the world that would end up on the same Block in the same neighborhood So in the same neighborhood, you might have, you know, a chinese family. You might have an irish family You might have a native american family. You might even have an african family And what comes with that is their culture their food Their instruments their rhythm. Yeah. Yeah Okay, so I you have to paint the pictures of of of america and these different influences Because if you look at just african drumming and drums at their core, um, you know certain types of cowbells uh You know the jimbay drum and then you look at You know symbols like the turkish symbols, right? That's where we get symbols from I'll get into that the china the chinese tom tom. I mean, it's just uh, exactly. Yes, exactly And so this is this is kind of where we're at. So we're in but there's one thing that happens in the warlands Um, that's that's very important. So, uh, obviously we have the emancipation proclamation Um in the 1860s that passes by abraham lincoln, which is about slavery Obviously that took some time to get past that but in new warlands. There was a place called congo square congo square, which is known as louis armstrong park today. This is where on sunday slaves were able to Have a day of ceremony a day of rest if you will So this would be a square in the park And not not everybody was enslaved but not everybody was free Most parts were the folks that lived on the plantations or whatnot. This was congo square and they were able to practice Their african rhythms their traditions sing. So let me paint the picture for you On a sunday you could go to this park on congo square And you might have aristocrats there you'd have peasants there Right, you'd have high society folks. They're standing around watching this Um, you know celebration. Wow. So they they they they had, you know limited drums and whatnot, but imagine You know, you're an irish an irish man or a woman Or you're uh, you know A french composer coming in. Yeah, you're hearing all this. Yeah, your world is opening up, man. Yeah, your world world is opening up okay, so Now we do have uh military bands. We have marching bands in New Orleans Right and that's no secret. So what do we have that we have concert bass drums of concert snare drums crash cymbals We also have uh asian Percussion which the small tom that we see on those first drums. Yeah, little red tom. Yeah Exactly. So we have all of these we have little cowbells. We have cymbals We have all these kind of various percussion. Let's and let's let's clarify right now They're all separate. Most of these things are not really put together In one cohesive. It's not one guy sitting there playing a what we consider a drum set. These are all Individual elements. Cool. Right. We have not gotten there with those. These are all percussion instruments from various Uh cultures. Yeah, we don't have a set of drums yet. We're not there. Yeah What we do have is we have a a concert bass drum, you know A marching bass drummer and we do have a snare drum. Yes, and occasionally a crash cymbalist If you will. Yeah, okay So we don't have we don't have this yet and the reason is the music's not there yet So let us look at the time Lewis Armstrong was born in the late 1800s Early 1900s. We start again this time What we have are these saloons these brothel house and the brothel houses as we may or may not know is where gentlemen would go to Find the company of a lady. Sure. And they would have Spent some time together but how they entertained or how they Kind of made this place the place to be is they had a piano player So Scott Joplin Piano players. This is where we get the birth of like ragtime music Yeah, very early americana kind of what you think of when you watch like an old Almost like a ken burns documentary about the civil war or something like that that kind of peony kind of sound That's exactly it because the piano players, right? It was a something that you could you know play but you had this mix of Kind of this marching band style boom chip boom chip boom chip on the piano, right? Yeah, or kind of theatrical kind of vaudeville. Sure. Exactly. There's another important part in the war and stick People may not be hip. See this is the mardi gras indians The mardi gras indians they kind of come into Development if you will i'm at early 1800s. Uh, and basically the mardi gras indians is a culture Really formed from native americans and african americans african free african americans and native americans obviously they Because of their history They've had a lot of commonality and those were cultures that were there that came together And again really shared The experiences and and so what comes out of that is the mardi gras indian is another type of street beat So, uh, just like you have your clave, right? You have your But this is a rhythm that just continues Kind of like a native american, uh, kind of bass drum. Yeah. Yeah. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. Yeah, exactly It's a little more syncopated Syncopated if you will I will. Yeah. Syncopated. Syncopated. Syncopated So you have a syncopated african beat with a native american type of drumming But what you have is a as a new neighborhood So those are also the rhythms that are happening in new yorkland at that time and and um, that's where we get kind of celebration of mardi gras Is the mardi gras indians They're chief and they have kind of different disciples and people in their crew that You know in their community and really back in the day it was a battle for the neighborhood Right, so it would get a little there would be some bloodshed But eventually it become more more of a competitive type of thing like my i'm going to make my um My outfit's going to be better than yours and what they do is they sew all year round You know to make these elaborate costumes with beads, but you have to understand with that They're actually writing songs. They're singing. They're playing rhythms They're they're stomping things out and this is like Go it goes back to the african diaspora calling response Uh improvisation syncopation. Yeah, they're establishing their own voice and their own identity Which allows them to kind of you know, uh be distinct from each other So you have this you have congo square. You have the marching band We also get the emergence of the brass band So the brass band is like a street is a condensed marching band. Yeah, yeah, yeah with with fewer musicians that are Improvising Offals these kind of marching type of cadences But they're using a little more of the blues. I was going to say all right pause for one second I have two questions for you marty grow indian Clarify that a little bit. So marty grow indian. Is that the name of a rhythm a group of people? Is it actually a native american tribe? marty grow indian like uh, Navajo indian or is it clear that up just a little bit? Yes, the marty grow indian is unique to New Orleans, louisiana Because it was really that uh merge of african-american and native american culture That shared and and uh developed into something new so the marty grow indian is just its own It's a it's a people of new or like a culture. Gotcha. Not it's a it's a culture. Exactly. It's a culture and out of that They established tribes. Okay, you know, they're kind of like uh, honorary tribes in the neighborhood. So for example You have the trimé So donald harrison great saxophonist. He's big chief Donald harris Man, that's awesome. We'll also play with art play. Yeah, and then so you have these big cheeks and that's what they're called. Wow Also christian scott Who's his nephew? He's actually a big chief now. And so when you're a chief you have the responsibility to kind of oversee the neighborhood um, and that's again the marty grow indian is new orleans unique Culture that is a very much part of new orleans just like beignets and dumbo and brass band So you can't have new orleans without the marty grow indian Cool. Okay. Thank you for explaining now We are at brass band before you continue. I want to ask you now is the brass band because we have our marty grow indian We have these different categories Would the brass band who's putting these these together like is this some sort of an official Like it's not a military band How do they get together and then you can carry on but i'm just curious about that like who's organizing the brass band That is an excellent question. It's all kind of simultaneously Happening at the same time. Gotcha so Again have congo square You have the emergence of this type of uh, piano type of ragtime music and again, that's that's a generic name But yeah, you have piano players actually kind of experimenting with You know traditional or what they're hearing from the south the blues With the classical technique with the kind of marching band, you know to keep things rolling So, yeah, the brass no one's really organizing these small street brass bands But you have uh, young musicians picking up the instrument Learning from watching so these big military bands would come through town and and whatnot But maybe a few of them stray off Right It may be the and so what we get from the snare drummers and the bass drummers is you have boom tick boom tick boom tick boom tick Boom tick, you know, I kind of the straight military beat, but what happens now here's the kick This is what makes new Orleans drumming and and really a big contribution to music It's called the big four The big four is what now we get Brass band, ragtime jazz, Dixieland. This is where music changes in american music forever So the big four so we have our boom tick boom tick boom tick boom tick, right? Now we're going to accent beat four on the bass drum one two one two three four two one two three four So kind of every other bar we accent that beat four and what it does is it puts in A syncopated breath it puts a jump and it puts a jolt in the rhythm So we're not playing we're not playing in the lines boom tick boom tick. We're doing something funkier Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's more interesting and now that and now the snare drum is not just playing eights and 16th notes They're playing a little more syncopated. So instead of Chat chat chat, you know a bunch of slams, right? Now they're going And they're using that latin tinge crowning Shacket And everything that's going on in new Orleans at that time and the iris jigs, you know the guitars The asian Collectives that are doing their performances Right. So there's all these rhythms going on. So the the brass band, you know, to your point, they didn't really organize per se They're just kind of forming. It's just jamming. Yeah, you're getting together in your playing. That's that's makes perfect sense. Yeah Exactly because the military bands, you know, they're huge and and not everybody's, you know in the army It's fairly assigned up. So they just they kind of, you know, and that's where you get the formal outfits, right? They want to, you know, uh still have that dignity But they're not necessarily part of any, uh You know country or regimen if you really just started their own bands But really those are the folks that start to come jam with the piano player So now we start to get a combo We start to get a combination of uh Piano players and trumpet players and this is where the after hours the jam session comes up. Yeah Well, hey, what about the drummers the drummer's got to get in on some of that So but the drop there weren't any drummer. So you had these concert bass drums Uh, you had these snare drums. There weren't any snare drum stands. Okay. You know, we we have lug wig that comes in the picture Um, and not until 1909 with the first bass drum pedal. Yeah, but before that we have, um, okay We look we now we have our piano player We have our uh, you know our horn player And so we don't want to do the brass band thing because that's something that's played in the street It's a little more party century. We actually want to put, you know a combination because i'm a violinist of classically trained Uh, i'm a trumpet player. I have the same thing. I I know how to play trumpet read music So again kind of organically and by default you have these people starting combinations So as these combos started uh with a stand-up bass or a tula a violin The percussion started to become Had to have a seat at the table if you will it's a natural progression, right? So exactly so now when we're bringing the Drum set or percussion inside Right, there's not any really formal setup So we have a concert bass drum. That's why when we look at all these early Uh pictures, there's like 26 inch bass drums. They're all marching bass with no feet. Okay. Yeah No feet So we we we put the bass drum there on the ground. That's kind of like okay. This is where our area is Uh, some of the first snare drums were put on chairs. Yeah, exactly. They weren't in it, you know, they were if there was any concert snare drum Hardware it was the concert so you couldn't play it standing up. This is the double drumming at the entrance of yeah This is where double drumming comes in. So now we have two drums, right? We have a we have a concert bass drum and a snare drum. Well, how do we play the bass drum, Bart? I you know I we obviously know where it's going to go. But but how did they do that early on would they just kick it Would they hit it with a stick with one hand? I mean, what happened? Hey, exactly. So, um, baby dodge who was one of the Original drummers and he's on the iconic Lewis Armstrong photos and whatnot, but you would play the bass drum With the stick With your right hand So you would you do a boom-chick boom-chick type of thing, but your bass drum you would be playing with the stick Okay, and then And from the double drumming from your snare drum bass drum. Guess what? Well A lot of folks are like sound of the asian tom Right. It wasn't a tom Forgive me. I don't know the actual name but those kind of small drums Served as toms because they you know, they were great for ensemble playing. They weren't too loud They had a great tone And that's where we kind of get the tom tom attack the situation Where now I have another tone. So now i'm beyond double drumming, right? I have a snare drum I got my bass drum and now i'm putting bells and You know adding cymbals and blocks to add little things to that Right, so I don't really have a set of drums yet. I have a contraption a trap kit. Yeah, right I have a double double drums and I have all these other stuff. So I have a contraption and a lot of people May or may not know right. That's why hey, you play traps traps come is the abbreviation of contraption. Yes so we also have to understand that Okay, so now we have this kind of Preventing music. So we got this ragtime music, which is not necessarily it's syncopated And a more performance type of thing So for example now that the the contraption is set up We're playing with the bass drum. We're playing with the snare drum But we're finding new ways and techniques to like play a bridge section or an intro And what that comes with is playing on the rim, you know playing with uh, You know trying different things out writing the cymbal Right is trying to uh, you know choking the cymbal trying to cope with different ways to do that Yeah, um, and then obviously there's something called the low boy Now the low boy was uh a concoction of basically Two small crash cymbals right with with a foot pedal. So it would you would think you'd have the the Bass drum pedal before a low boy Uh, and that's what it was called a low boy. Yeah, which was basically two crash cymbals in a pedal contraptions or Figure that kind of made those chop and that was a way to keep time Yeah, and then people should uh people should look that up too because low boys or sock cymbals or I think sometimes called the charleston cymbal That in itself, which we'll do an episode on is just fascinating to see The the development of that. I mean it's just and you're you're nailing it man You're hitting hitting it right on the head with how it's It's crazy. It was before the bass drum pedal. It's also it we're getting there We're we're getting to it's naturally happening Exactly, and you know now we we know gretch right here in willensburg and and those guys are starting to You know, um, kind of hear what's going down in the waters, but don't forget in new york at that time You know, there was ten pen alley. We had the kind of birth of uh broadway And it's kind of live bobbill Right, and this is where the percussion pit cut, you know kind of comes in there So there was a market and guess what else happens there the industrial revolution Right, so we start to get automobiles. We start to get manufacturing And so this is where gretchen and mudwig and you know ford You know chase and yeah, right carnage. All these guys start You know developing things to to create industry and this is where we start to get that hardware And and start to get the set of drums so so the double drumming essentially You know becomes more Common and so this is why you have the lewis armstrong, you know the hot five and everybody has their Their names, but really how it got out of there is They would take these combos on the steamboats another innovation at the time They would go to chicago And get in the city and go up to new york going on the road. Well, yeah on the river Gretsch Right, we know gretsch listening to you know, you're on the wonderful episode with your guest there Gretsch. Yes, they did have the You know the company and they were ready to go but now with the introduction of the Contraction or the set of drums now we can actually Do something to evolve it and here's one more very important to be the chambers there So papa joe jones one of our faves. Yeah, yep Started playing a good his friend count william count basey Right um of kansas city and he started very young with him. I think 12 or 14 And he grew up in this time where now the drum set Was actually a little more formalized But this may or may not be true But this changes everything papa joe jones had a friend that was a plumber Okay, you with me bark. Yeah, I'm with you plumber Okay, now we have a low boy And he would he asked his friend to maybe experiment with how can we raise this low boy up? Really so I could you know, maybe do some more things with it. Yeah, and so he built him a prototype And this is kind of where we get the name hi hat because We have raised it from the low boy And and my assumption again is it's you know, the The hi hat is kind of shaped like a hat. Yeah, exactly blend if you will. Yeah, but we've raised it up so the hi hat it's still the sock symbol, right, but The historical name is the sock symbol, but it's because it came You know from that, but it's the hi hat now. Yeah But from the hi hat we get now a way for drummers to keep time and chick web William chick web and hardly and the cotton club would push this along. Yeah. Yeah, right along with sonny greer duke ellington Yeah, they the hi hat changed everything, but guess what bar if we didn't have the hi hat We couldn't get into rock and roll. We couldn't get in the funk. We couldn't get anywhere where we are today. So uh each generation and You know Period kind of introduces a new innovation or something that moves Something along so just kind of by coincidence that We had this formation of the double drumming in new Orleans in particular Because of these combinations These groups will go up and down Uh You know the coast they'd go and travel then in when new york gets a hold of it gretz. Guess what gretz has a whole You know now We can start manufacturing sets of drums a drum set Yeah, because we see it and and honestly everything you're saying so I think it's cool to to to look at the forms the tools the drummers would use as the time keeping instrument meaning that um We think of it now as your right hand on the hi hat or on the ride, but back then The snare would be the time keeping that you'd keep a steady rhythm on the snare And then that would develop more into uh doing it on the ride like we man, we take these things for granted We think it's just automatic, but that's what I love about joe joe papa joe jones and uh gene krupa is I think that there's the debate about like gene krupa or buddy rich and I always talk about gene But gene krupa or buddy rich buddy buddy's obviously a monster But it was a different time where you're pulling this stuff out of thin air You're just inventing it because you saw someone play it on a steamboat coming on tour from new orleans And you see their sock symbol and you say Man, what if we raise that up joe jones gets a plumber friend to help? I mean Man, it is just the it's the advent of the drum set. This is how it all came together. It's so cool And and and just to break that myth bar Gene krupa, buddy rich. I mean all of these guys were Fascinating with each other. Yeah, they studied each other. There's no battle and and then and just to put this out That it could be a whole nother topic Louis bells Yep, a lot of people don't know the double bass drum the exactly. Yeah That came from him being inspired would buy everyone else and his dad was a Uh worked on cars and things like that. So like dad to build him a prototype on two bass drums Wow, you know putting a set together like that and that takes it to a whole another thing. So Where we have it today the drum set is still evolving because now you see people using, you know, three or four snare drums Or three three bass drums Right, so the possibilities for drumming are endless as it's, you know, only over 100 years old But it's very important to know that without the development of the drum set We would not have any of the music today Again, the african diaspora the three important elements sync a patient call response improvisation It's something that's used in music today and uh, you know, I I implore everyone all the listeners and that listen to this great show to just dig in a little more And into those periods check out a brass band Right. Check out the marty gar indian. Check out the early jelly roll morton and lewis armstar mcquinnon and hear what that was like And then from there you check out chickweb gene krupa who brings in soloing and phrasing into drumming Right. Leap making that the drum set a leader. Yeah, the gene krupa big band. Yeah, okay You're turning drummers. And so I I just want all our drummers to know out there. You can be respected as a musician And a band leader just as anyone else. That's very true. I just want to say too You're talking about the different drum sets and I just love how Joe jones papa joe jones not to be confused with philly joe jones, but papa joe jones with the floor tom two is left I mean, that's just like Right now you think oh, whatever you just move your floor tom. You have fun experiment. You think you think dennis chambers Are you think dennis chambers you think? Yeah Yeah looking at the african diaspora where he's the improvisational style Thinking about where that came from and just jazz in general is just bouncing off each other and just And then syncopating and again you you don't think about the elements that make these things what they are So when you go back and listen to gene plane gene krupa plane sing sing sing and that revolutionary floor tom riff That's not That was not like just a that was a big deal That was not heard before now. We kind of take it for granted, but This is it was a special thing I mean to to play your bass drum with your right hand because you didn't have Ludwig hadn't invented the bass drum pedal yet, which i'm sure that's up for debate on who actually invented it or As far as I know leading inventing the snare stand. It's like it was a chair It was a chair before that Like literally a chair. Yeah a chair man and and a suitcase playing on double drumming double drumming. Yeah Man, that's jazz. You you really know your stuff, man And I I'm I am excited to go research the marty grau indian Brass bands look up all this stuff and and I always post old pictures and videos and stuff And it's just neat to to hear more and it's it's it is endless Fantastic. Well, I and you can tell I get excited talking about this stuff and and and any period or any drummer or Uh innovation you can go and and really just dig into it. It's just fascinating to because uh, yeah, it's just fun I mean, we love the history of the drum. Absolutely. It is an essential episode to understand Everything else that we talk about on this show revolves around this topic It we wouldn't have anything without going back to africa and the latin rhythms and everything so I can't thank you enough for for Filling us in on what it's all about and and the whole, you know, putting it all into perspective Great bar where I really appreciate you appreciate you having me on the show and uh, I'm a big fan and uh, I will continue to listen on and All the drummers you can do anything you want to do So, uh, don't don't be intimidated by People that say you're not musicians. Absolutely. Anyone who says that, uh, they're not my friend Okay, well, maybe they'll still be my friend, but I'm not I'm not happy with them but uh, I I want to tell everyone they can you can keep up with jazz find his website. It's j a z s a w y e r dot com jazz Sawyer dot com And from there you can link to his facebook and see what he's up to and hear his music and and everything cool And I'm sure jazz would want to I'm sure you would want to talk to anyone who is who's interested in this topic And uh, people can reach out and they can tell you what they think about, you know The history of drums and we can get the the conversation started wonderful. Yeah, I'll send out any references or recommendations for any of you guys So again, appreciate it. Awesome. All right, jazz. We'll keep it up, man. And uh, thank you so much for talking with us today drummers world If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about the future Until next time keep on learning This is a Gwyn sound podcast