 We're glad to know you're still there, it's breakfast on Plus TV Africa and we just talked about the fact that Human Rights Council of the UN, all the other African countries were voted for and almost every country was better than us by like 50 times or more because we had just 3 votes while others had like 150 votes, 170 something, 180 something, Nigeria had 3 votes when it came to the UN Human Rights Council and it's very worrisome how our image has come to be that we'll be having just 3 votes. Now talking about ranking we also now have Nigeria ranked 4th on the World Bank borrower's list. Even now IMF is still talking about the fact that we might need to borrow again before we can sterilize in some quarters and all that and this government came and said that they will not be borrowing money but we keep seeing borrowings upon borrowings and even some people are saying that the money for the palliatives is being borrowed. It is a worrisome thing. So now this ranking of Nigeria as 4th in the World Bank that is giving some people the heebie-jeebies as they call it. We have a guest that will help us talk about this. He is the Technology and Media News Editor at Business Day, he's Mr. Frank Eleanya. Good morning and welcome to the program Mr. Eleanya. Thank you so much and always a pleasure to be on the show this morning. Yeah, when it came to human rights we ranked the last. When it came to borrowing we ranked 4th. 4th best, world best. Your comment is... What does this mean to our economy and to us as a nation? Being ranked the 4th on the World Bank borrower's list. Okay, so it means, it's like you said from the beginning, it's a very worrisome situation and it's not also surprising because anyone who has been watching the way or the results which we have been borrowing money in recent times would know that this is ultimately going to be the case and if we continue in this part we will probably maybe make number one in the very, very near future. It says something about the efficacy of the government, whether it's the previous government, whether it's the current government, you know, I know the current administration will say, oh, we inherited some of this debt, you know, and they also made promises that they were going to reduce the volume of debt that Nigeria has, but so far it's been over 4 months now that they have been in power and some of us have not seen what, for any indication, that's a plan in place to reduce Nigeria's debt profile in state. What we have seen is a one-ton borrowing here and there. You mentioned the palliatives where the states were giving 5 billion Naira each for palliatives. You and I know how that palliative has done. I don't know if you have to go on palliatives, you know, every Nigerian was supposed to get it. You know, of course, many states are taking that money on loan and they haven't paid back. And of course, we have also seen that the government has also been trying to increase the dollar supply in the market and the first attempt they made wasn't successful, which was the 3 billion dollars that they wanted to borrow from African bank and, of course, they were breaking their own commitment, but that became an audio money. I didn't know if we didn't get that money, but I think the monies that they have brought into the system have also been borrowed, you know, some of them coming from the World Bank themselves that are also releasing the statistics, you know, we also still have an approval for 1.5 billion dollars that the government also intends to borrow, which it claims that it wants to put into small businesses to help them grow, you know, so there are other plans, you know, we also borrowed the thing is that we are sitting on a keg of gunpowder considering the fact that our projects isn't even enough for our capital projects. The deficit in the project right now has risen to over 100%. So what that means is that we are, every money that we are making will naturally go into something in the debt profile that we have, you know, but then because we have issues that need to be addressed, we need to continue to borrow and to fund those issues. And I've said before that the government hasn't made it easy with the government or the kind of team that has recruited. This is a government that has the largest number of cabinets at presently 46 with a new Minister of Finance that was brought in, you know, so they have all the policies and all of them also have gone on a recruitment spree, recruiting A's here and there. Even the government, even the president himself, I would say that about 6 to 24, 8 to the Expedia team, to other teams that he has, you know. So all of that is part of the cost that we are incurring, which hasn't helped us. If we're to go to the Nigerian Korea Satisfaction Reset Release, it's said that debt profile has risen by 75.7% as a second quarter of this year. And you would expect that the third quarter is going to be a lot higher than it is. We're not just borrowing us now, we're also borrowing from the banks. We are deeply indebted to Nigerian banks, you know, and that's our domestic debt profile. So if you look at it from every side, we are just not... The indexes are not just favoring us. But then you listen to the IMF yesterday say that Nigeria's debt profile is not too much or it's not a sassy sort of that it can still be managed, but it will require some form of a prudent. Well, then there's no prudence yet in the system. That's a very big problem. And I also need to say that taking loans or borrowing isn't the same, really. It's not. I mean, you can borrow from your business, you can borrow to, you know, to develop capital infrastructure, you know. But the problem we've had over the years has been what we invest our loans on. We borrow money for consumption mostly. And that is where we are because the returns from consumption you know is zero because the people that you borrowed from need you to pay them back, you know. So it's not just about borrowing. It is what are you investing the money that you're borrowing on. And so far we have invested prudently. We haven't invested in infrastructure. Yeah, the government is making some noise here and there and all that, but we've heard it noise before that they translate to anything. You know, let me go see if I can express with you the same way it is with half-way done, half-way not done. You know, so a lot of things are just going right, so far. Yeah, well, the Senate president said that because he mentioned the Lagos-Ibadon Expressway, he said it's time now to work on the Lagos at Biokuta. Maybe that's the next campaign cow that we will be seeing because Lagos-Ibadon Expressway has been there. Every government comes and talks about it and then leaves it the way it is or just does some palliatives. Now, Senate president is saying something about the Lagos-Ibadon Expressway. Let's wait and see. But now, you mentioned something that they wrote in the system may not even be from this government. Don't you think it's high time we left other governments and concentrate on the government that is now? Any government that comes, let's talk to them about what they are doing wrong. For instance, for six months, the previous government, which this one took over from, which also is the same party, the budgeted about 3.6 trillion Naira for fuel subsidy to take us from January to June. Now, the present government is borrowing money and is going to spend 3.27 trillion. Okay, well, let's say May. Federal government may spend 3.27 trillion Naira on palliatives and loans. Fuel subsidy for six months, 3.6 trillion. Palliatives for three months, 3.27 trillion. Who does that? And then tomorrow you would still say that previous governments are the ones that brought the road upon us. Let's start to blame whoever is at the hem of affairs at that moment. Don't you think so? Yes, you're absolutely correct. So, you're absolutely correct. You look at it, it's been blame banter here and there, you know. If you bring in a new government tomorrow, those two blame the previous one. You know, that's how the government system is wired. They don't take responsibility. They don't say, okay, I'm here now. So, it has become my responsibility to make things a lot better than I meant it. You know, so you always expect them to say, no, it wasn't me. You know, and it was the other person. And the question is, what are you going to do? And it starts with what the vision that you're bringing on board. And I keep insisting I've not seen any form of vision that this government wants to project to Nigerians, you know. It's a lot of haphazard statements here and there. We are going to do that, we're going to do that, and we're going to do that. We're going to do that, we're going to do that. You're not sure exactly where they want to put their hands on. So, it's a problem. It's a very, very big problem. And then you mentioned about the borrowings that they have made, you know, 3-point, 3-point. The thing is that, and I've said it before, it is about, they borrow to consume. When you are borrowing money to consume, it's like borrowing money to burn it. Because there's no expectation of return. There's no expectation of return because if you're putting money in palliatives, now you and I know that we don't have any, as any clear plan or any clear strategy that this government has for the palliations, for them, it's about I give $8,000 to this person or maybe $50,000 to this person or that person and all that. Are you giving them on the basis of the loan to return back? If you're giving them on the basis of a loan to return back, what are the modalities that they're going to return that money back? We have seen the Angkor-Bruwas plan that went kaput, all the money that the previous CBI governor collected to fund that program, all of them has disappeared, so we're no longer talking about it now and nobody's been held accountable for it. Now, here we are again, somebody's going again for another palliatives. Okay, we saw the trade-off money. I know for sure that we are yet to account for the monies that were borrowed from those women or that we saw on TV that got maybe $10,000, $15,000 or $20,000 or $50,000. But we are yet to account for how much exactly was dispensed during that program. All of those things are palliatives. This is another plan for another palliatives. Again, we are going in some trajectory. There is no plan as to when are we going to return the money that we're about to borrow. It is a disaster waiting to happen. Okay, and also, I think maybe there is some kind of incentive for these politicians that when they borrow this money, because nobody holds them account for it, some of that money of course get cornered into their pockets. So for them it's like something that they always look forward to. Let's give them palliatives. Of course, we're going to see maybe about 50% of it. It is what has happened to the Lagos in Banana Expressway. I'm not a Bertian man, but if I were to put my money on anything, I would tell you that Lagos in Banana Expressway would not be completed in the next four years. Because the same thing will happen to it. If it is already happening to the palliatives, if we don't really have a plan for palliatives, what plan do we have to complete some of these projects that have been hanging there for the past 20 years? That's where the issues are. And we just need a seismic change as in the way governance is viewed. And you cannot do that if you have the same kind of people who have been there and done the same thing all over and over again and all that. They are going to repeat the same thing. There is no way a leopard cannot change the sport. That's what we're finding ourselves now. So whatever it is that they're telling us about palliatives, it is absolutely not going to bring in any return. Somebody will say, oh, but it's going to give some relief to the citizens. How many citizens? Do they even have the data of the citizens? We don't have a census. We don't know how many we are. People keep saying you're 200 million, 200 and 20, 200 and 10, 200 and 15, 200. Who exactly has the exact number of how many Nigerians we have? And do we have the number of Nigerians in the rural communities? Because those are the people that have been targeted with these palliatives. Do we have accurate number of these rural Nigerians, where they are, the communities where they are, can we pinpoint the houses? How many houses that are there? So that's how you begin to know that somebody is serious when they come to you to say, OK, we're going to give palliatives in order. Because they've already mapped out, OK, this is where we're targeted. This is how many people we're going to look at. We already have their details on our system. And we know how to return back this money. You know, and lastly, is the fact that after they do all of this, Nigerians don't hold them accountable. So they will repeat this all of it again and again and again. Because they know that nobody's going to cry. Nobody's going to protest. Nobody's going to say anything. You know, because that's why it keeps happening. If we have a judicial system that has the metal to exact or to pronounce punishment and then an executive arm that enforces those punishments, you know, people will begin to fear to do certain things in this country. But there's no more fear anymore in the system. There's no more fear. Anybody can just do anything. Kinapas can just run into your house and kidnap you. They know nobody's going to pursue them. Amurabas can relay you on the road and just collect your phone. There's no camera to hold them accountable. Even in cases where there are cameras, the police will sit on the case for like ages and nothing happens out of it. So when you have a system like that, there is no point, you know, trying to expect so much from anything happening from the government side and all of that and all that. There needs to be a proper structure. We don't have a proper structure. We don't know, but I've not seen any. I start to be corrected. But I've not seen any proper structure from the prison administration. And that is on their table. It's something that they should address urgently, quickly. And before you start talking about palliative, start talking about data. How do we bring our, as in, know how many Nigerians that we have? How many are we? So all of that is how you know how serious these governments are. But so far, I don't think they are. Okay, well, as we wrap up, just if you have any suggestion on how to remove ourselves from the food position on the World Borrower's List, you've said a lot of things in the course of your talking, but for purpose of emphasis, just some bullet points, few of them, how you think Nigeria can exit that position and be in a better place. Prudence is number one. And the prudence must ask from the government. It must ask from them for saying, we are cutting down the cost of governance. I can never say it enough. It is high time we see a government that prioritizes saving. That knows that there's something called investment in the future. We want to invest in the future. So because of that, we're going to deny ourselves some things. We're going to deny ourselves some of these luxuries. We're going to deny ourselves some of these high salaries. We're going to deny ourselves some of these aids that are not doing anything around us. And we're going to deny ourselves these luxurious traveling methods. I saw the other day, the president's son was traveling in the presidential fleet, one of the presidential fleets. If that's what we have reduced our presidential fleets to, why do we still have it? Why do we still have it? About nine of them, once you pack one of them, you're spending millions on each of them. So for every day they pack, millions are going out. So why do you need all of that? I've told someone before, look, if the president can't, if the president is serious, that I recognize the fact that we are in a very dire situation, what he would have done is sell off all of those fleets and start using the commercial flight. Take for instance, if you take, just for the purpose of our discussion, an airpiece for instance, the president makes a case of taking airpies wherever foreign trips that he's going to. Airpies doesn't have licenses in different countries. And that's because they don't trust the Niger market and all that, but if a Nigerian president can maybe start taking commercial flights like airpies or maybe any other green airways, whatever the name is, and it takes them abroad all the time, it was fast forward. They do fast forward the rate at which our, our aviation operators expand into other markets. Do you understand? So that's where you're creating value for the aviation industry. That's where you're creating a value chain even, because these guys don't have to increase the fleets they have because the president uses them, the president's minister uses them. So there's just more market for them to do something. They have more money to pay salaries. They can now recruit, you know, and it also means that the president will not pay more attention to the aviation industry. So once it has to be, it has to be deliberate. It has to be deliberate. The president has to be deliberate in showing that he's a prudent person. And then of course, look at all of these ministries that are not doing anything. He even went and created more ministries. I'm wondering what exactly do you need them for? The Ministry of Science and Technology, the Ministry of Communication, okay, the Ministry of Science and Technology is now a Ministry of Science, Innovation, and Technology. Now, there's another one called Ministry of Communication, Innovation, and Digital Economy. You have all of them like that replicated, replicating different things. So you got many of them as several of them together and I just create departments inside those ministries. Half somebody heard them. Half people heard them. As it stands now, we don't even know if the permanent secretaries are doing the job that is supposed to be doing because there's a lot of aides everywhere running around. You go on Twitter, I am an aide for this, I am an aide for that and all that. So there's a lot of things that needs to be done. Prudence in governance. That's how you save money. That's a wrap up, okay. Well, if we begin to talk about problems of Nigeria, it just sparks something in our minds. Thank you so much, Frank, for coming on the show this morning to hear your thoughts. We've been talking with Frank Eliana, a public affairs analyst. That's how I'd like to describe him today, even though he works with business day newspaper. He is a technology and media news editor at business day. We'll take a short break and when we return, we'll go to our next hot topic, which is the advice that was given to the president to go after barons responsible for bunkering. Stay with us.