 Eating a lot of protein could be killing your bulk. All right, let's talk about bulking and a lot of protein just refuses a gains I know well, you know why it's specifically about it's specific about bulking because You know, so I got what did I do to kill your gains, dude? No it in bulking. Yeah, I was No, so here's here's why I was talking to Somebody the other day. I think it was on a poll note. Here's what it was I was on the NCI group last night with the the trainers and coaches And there was a young lady on there that was talking about having a client that was a hard gainer It was a female client Really skinny who feels really full eating anything over 1200 calories. Yeah, and she's like, what do I do? It's gonna be really it's really hard for her to eat more than 1200 calories She's super full and she's got a super fast or based on her appetite her metabolism is faster than what she's eating We can't gain her to get her to gain any muscle. I said well, how much what's her protein intake like? And she said oh, we're we're aiming for a gram of protein per pound of body weight and I said that might be the problem Yeah, she's eating all protein and from natural sources to yeah And so here's the issue with bulking is that she has a high protein diet does help with muscle gains It's also the most satiating macronutrient Protein will kill your appetite faster than carbs or or fats much faster So if you're eating a high calorie diet in your you have a fast metabolism You're trying to put on size and you're eating a lot of protein can make it very very challenging Now the interesting thing is studies show that high protein or really high protein is more important on a cut Than it is on a bulk right? So when you're bulking as long as you're eating like point six point seven grams of protein per pound of body weight And your calories are above surplus you're doing fine It's when you're cutting that you want the higher protein because it preserves muscle and it of course helps with appetite But I remember this with myself as a kid trying to eat more food If I ate too much protein was to kill my appetite. I'd get that couldn't becomes a chore really fast And that's where I think supplement companies, you know Really like peered into that and tried to make it so you'd get as many calories as possible and make it You know try to make it palatable so you could consume like, you know, 1100 calories in one sitting But man, you'd pay the price as you're digesting it Well, I really think there's a fine line here because I also went through the phase where I was eating plenty of calories But I wasn't getting in a ball. Yeah, but I wasn't getting enough protein. Yeah, you're right There's I'm not sitting in low protein. Right, right. So it is like this. That's why it's not that simple, right? Like I think sometimes the fitness space over simplifies it like oh You just got to get your protein and and I remember when we first started the podcast We would go back and forth on this because it's like I'm really careful about that message because I know that a Majority of my clients didn't get enough protein But then if I'm talking to a hardcore fitness person who knows protein is like this, you know Magical macronutrient that helps you build muscle they over consume and sometimes they over consume so much that it fucks Digestion and then they have a hard time bulking or putting on muscle So there really is like this sweet spot that you want to be at and I I feel like a lot of people tend to be on the Extremes either they don't they're they grossly under eat it So that's why they're not building any muscle or they eat so much of it chasing it thinking that it's the the magical Macronutrient and then their digestion is kind of fucked up and then they can't or they just have their appetite just doesn't allow them Right like like it's so satiate and the example of this young woman that we were talking about I think she was I think she said she was like a hundred and nine pounds and I said, you know if she's 75 grams of protein that would be plenty for her body weight and then she could eat The rest of the calories in more palatable carbohydrates and fats because those don't hammer your your appetite Nearly as much. I mean, this is even for the case with me when I'm trying to gain, you know I wait right now. I'm maybe closer to 215 215 grams of protein for me if it's from food in particular because I can add shakes and shakes don't do this as much But if I eat 215 grams of protein of food my appetite is is shot Really hard. Yeah, so I know we've given any advice in terms of like trying to cut down where we start with protein Would you reverse that in this situation where you're trying to like go carbs, you know Then fat and then protein in terms of like the order of it Yeah, it depends on the person if it's one of those situations where you're and you know, I think it's important to Paint the context that I'm talking about people Who are challenged with eating enough calories to be in a surplus. Yeah, that's who we're talking about Yeah, so if it's easy if you're if the surplus is easy for you then maybe don't this is not that big of a deal But if you're somebody's like man, I can't eat enough and it's really hard for me to eat all the calories that I need to in order to gain Any additional muscle in that particular case? I would say okay So long as we're getting you know about like I said 0.7 grams of protein per pound of body weight After that go for the more easily digestible palatable Macronutrients carbohydrates and even fats right fats and carbohydrates Especially when you combine them with with you know salt or a little bit of sweetness are very palatable Protein is just it's an and we know it's for fact. It's a fact. It will bring down your appetite I mean you eat a bunch of chicken Especially lean chicken or lean protein and you're just like I can't eat anymore Well, I also think this is here's an example right of where and something that we don't advocate for but where it Sometimes makes sense is eating processed foods and foods that are super palatable more palatable Yeah, just because it's I mean I did that when I was trying to hit my cow when my calories had to be like 4,000 plus it was just it's hard man. Yeah, it was impossible to do it with all whole foods I mean, maybe I could do that once in a while, but Consistently to maintain that that muscle mass that I mean I had to pile on but the thing that I did was I Just I made it a rule that okay I'm gonna get like all of my my protein intake that I need through whole foods and natural sources And then I'll pile the calories on after that like so it was like, okay I still was eating a bulk of my nutrition was coming from clean quote-unquote foods And then it was like, okay, I just had this dinner You know, it'd be really tough for me to have another and I hit let's say I hit all my protein What I need to as far as hitting my protein targets But I'm like short a thousand calories be really hard for me to have a double or a triple serving of the dinner I just had but I definitely could sit down and have some ice cream I could definitely get had sit down and have like magic spoon cereal I could definitely do Something that was super palatable like that or process that would help me do it and I know we don't for health It's not the ideal thing for you to do But for someone who's really struggling with putting weight on or bulking That was a strategy that I found I had to do in order to break through that struggle. Yeah for me It's like, you know, all as long as I hit right now 150 to 170 grams of protein through food Then I'll eat the rest and more palatable, you know macros, you know Like I'll have potatoes and I'll even fry the potatoes sometimes White rice is good and I'll add butter to the rice which makes it more palatable and salt And then at the end of the day For me it's easier to add a shake for the protein because if I have a lot of protein from whole natural foods my appetites It's done. I just can't eat anymore So that's what I'll do if I'm still chasing protein But what would happen sometimes is you know when I was again back to the 4,000 5,000 calorie days I'd hit my 220 grams of protein, you know at like say 3,000 calorie mark But then I knew I needed another thousand calories throwing those stuff on yeah That's where I would slap on the ice cream or do something like that to keep my calorie You know, I remember I had a client just like this and it was somebody who and it was a woman who just I don't know If you guys and this is not super common, right? It's nine out of ten times It's the opposite if somebody has an issue with eating too much But every once in a while you get a challenge where you have somebody who's and they're being very sincere It's like I just don't I can't eat anymore like I feel like I'm stuffed and you know, I'm just not hungry And I remember I had a client like this and I kept pushing the protein and she's like Sal after I eat You know the chicken breasts and stuff that you tell me I can't eat any more And then I said, you know, let's try cutting your protein down a little bit and seeing if we can get more calories by doing that And it totally worked. She was able to eat more food as a result and then gain, you know Some muscle and and again the studies show this that the upper limit for most people for gains from protein is around 0.6.7 grams per pound of body weight if you're relatively lean more than that and you really don't get any additional Benefit now the additional benefit you may get from eating more than that is really good when you're cutting Because there seems to be a muscle preserving effect when your calories are low and also the appetite suppressant effect that you get from protein That's really handy when you're trying to cut But when you're doing the other side of that, oh that can make it And what's the the theory or the the the science behind that is that be when you're a low calorie I mean that your calories what is what gets converted over into sugar and energy and fuel because you're low calorie You have minimal amount of that. So then the body starts looking for other resources I'm assuming that's why a higher protein diet in a in a calorie deficit is more advantageous than a higher Higher protein diet in a bulk. Yeah, you know, I'm gonna say this very carefully because I know Matters gonna get somebody who's gonna get all but I mean for the general population to get an understanding Yeah, that's kind of how I would try and explain. Yeah, and I really protein again I'm gonna be careful with this because context matters quite a bit and it's not as cut and dry as it's gonna sound right now But protein has an anabolic effect High protein has a pro muscle building effect So it's like you're sending a build muscle signal While you're also cutting calories and cutting calories Generally is a get rid of muscle signal catabolic It's catabolic right because your body's always trying to balance the energy and a great way for it to do it is reduce muscle Because muscles expensive it burns a lot of calories So eating high protein in that particular state tends to preserve more muscle now the reason why I'm careful with this is because People will hear this and be like, oh cool the more protein the better and I'm gonna build more muscle if I just eat a ton of protein It's not that simple But yeah when you're cutting you have a muscle preserving effect when you do that and when you're in a bulk You don't need as many grams of protein to build muscle. It's just because you're already in a surplus It's not nearly as important high proteins important Just you know the super high protein intake doesn't really make that big just simply being in a calorie surplus that we now switch from being You know you're in a deficit. You're in a catabolic state when you're in a surplus You're in an anabolic state. So just simply being in a surplus. You're already pro building or pro adding right? So that makes sense right and when you're low like that your body's looking for other resources for fuel Yeah, it's interesting to me too, but just even in on the training side of it like how people don't really Attribute or I think about the muscle preserving Strategies in terms of like when you're on a cut like all they want to do is like cut down And so they're trying to like reduce calories and then get high intensity, you know movement Almost cardiovascular based type of exercises instead of like focusing more on actual You know strength training to to provide that signal that you know, we still need the muscle Oh, dude the key to the key to cutting a hundred percent is muscle preservation That's the key focus all your energy on muscle preservation while you're in a deficit and you are more likely to end up leaner You know from a body fat Do you guys see that message very often in the space? No, I don't like ever no the message is very much like the scale Yeah, how much weight you lost how much size you lost are you smaller that type of deal muscle preservation is the most important thing whenever you're trying to get lean because what you don't want to do is you Don't want especially this you that's all your work. You're losing. Yeah And regardless if you're I don't care if your goal is to look sculpted or not You don't want to end up at the end of a weight loss journey with a significantly slower metabolism Good luck maintaining that right so you're eating 2,500 calories a day and you're overweight You lost 30 pounds now you're eating 1,200 calories a day and that's what you got to eat to maintain That's a big difference and that's forever. That's a tough position to be in that's usually why we see you know It was really tough for me and I don't think I've shared this on the show before was after Using all those strategies to push calories for as long as I did during the competitive years was now that I'm like my metabolism is so different than what it was then is Breaking behaviors eating behaviors like I had to train I train an example of that's a that's a tough one Like an example of an extreme one, right? I got to a point where for at least four or five years there That if I ordered like a five guys, it was always two double double burgers and whatever else on the side, right? And you know when I'm slamming four or five thousand calories, you know, that's only like 1600 calories It's just a fraction of my my day or what it's actually helping you hit your yeah It would be high protein and so I would I would need it for the day Where and because I got so used to doing that that if you know and now like oh Katrina and I would just ordered five guys The other day and you know, it's the my natural thing is the order to those it's like I mean, I'm like more like three thousand calories a day right now But you know for the longest time I would still do that I would still go back and still order that and then way over consume But think I need to eat that much it took me a while to get out of that that mindset of I don't need that much anymore And just one of those will satisfy me It'll give me my core can take I need but I train myself so hard on always pushing the calories for such a consistent period of time That you you get these habits of you know Certain dishes that you eat or what that and the the serving size that you would do it in the reverse is true Right. Yeah, like right now, right? I've been trying to bulk It's been really hard now my metabolism is way faster than it's been a long time Especially ever since starting TRT. So I've gained some muscle metabolism is really fast My gut health has always been the limiting factor or I should I say for the last maybe eight to ten years It's been a limiting factor and there's been some stuff that I've done over the last year or so My gut health seems to be really good So I'm pushing calories and it's really weird and really hard because my eating habits were the way they were Yeah, for so long where you know, I didn't eat all the time. I didn't have to worry about eating all the time That's just my it was better for my gut health and that's what it was my metabolism. Now. It's like holy cow, man I got a really my goal was to see if I can go from 210 to you know, 220 or so gain 10 pounds and I'm sitting at 215 right now, and there's no way. There's no way. I'm gonna be able no way I don't want to it's way too much food. You know what happened last. You know, it's been happening I'm snoring now. Yeah, I'm storing at night now on my side I'll sleep on my side last night. I wake up in the middle night. My wife's not in bed I'm like, where'd she go? She went in my daughter's room to go Because you would hear me me breathing back in the early days when we first start the podcast like that was like Yeah, we get criticized for that all the time because I remember we had was it who do we have Jordan shallow? Oh I'm under the bus. Yeah, he's a heavy breather shallow is like that. It was just a big guy though Yeah, I feel like everybody has a different threshold to like I don't think my body is like Getting over 210 for me is really hard, right? Some some people over 210 no problem. They feel comfortable for me. I'm like forcing that my body I don't think it's that good watching. I mean watching you right now So reminds me of you know show years like because what the way you have to eat to just to maintain your size right now It's silly. It's a like and it's like having a whole nother job on top of the it's expensive It's silly. It takes up a lot of time. Yeah, and it looks cool though. It's fun for a second I had a no, I got it. Why don't you use that for marketing reasons make some money, man? I had a pump today That was I have fans with a this hasn't happened to me in years. Give the fans what they want No, listen, I had a hashtag. I had a pump today where I wash my clothes on you I couldn't change my shirt remember that I haven't had any years where you get such a pump That you're like trying to do your shirt and you can't do it But you know what I've been doing that's helped a lot is at the end of the day I add protein if I need it and the only one that I can do that doesn't really make me feel like oh my god I'm so stuff is the bone broth. Yeah from paleo. I can throw I can have you know 60 grams serving of protein with that and it's like water. It's super smooth easy. It's just because there's nothing in it It's just there's no flavor. There's no color. So you use it. So I haven't used it I'm so terrible right now. Yeah, I haven't tried you but I know you both get a little more upset with the way Although I do notice things when I've had I've told you before I had multiple things a day of way, but I haven't been I haven't messed with that yet. Do you say it's like water? It doesn't taste like no, no, no, no, no You taste it. You taste like bone broth. There's no there's no flavor. Yeah There's no nothing in it. It's literally just have you thought has have you thought of making it like in like a super Stew or something like that you would just can take something you would use like a normal we tried that was like a chicken soup Oh, you guys so I'm yeah, I wondered if you if you tried I haven't I just you know, right? Yeah Yeah, no, I just mix it with water, but I could have I literally a 60 gram shake drink it in 10 minutes later It's like I drink water. Wow versus if I do other proteins 40 grams is where I'm at if I go like 60 doesn't matter what the source you do you pour it in your rice, right? Oh, if I do if I do yeah, if I make your mash kind of thing if I make it to hot you're like broth Yeah, then you can use that instead of I've done that before but not with the paleo valley protein powder I did that back when we were working with a kettle and fire I would make the protein rice that you talk about that I really liked. Yeah, I thought it actually tastes really good Hey, if you enjoyed that clip you can find the full episode here or you can find other clips over here and be sure to subscribe