 We're moving right along Chief you're up next Chief support, huh? I have actually a precious little to report. This is my first Sort of back to work full-time police commission meeting. I know is at the last We are close to job for Labor Day as I sit here There'll be other things that I'll wish I could have thrown into the chief's report, but we'll just backload them So well, we're just glad to have you back. Thank you I'm glad to have you back. I'll just add I've been part of lots of search committees in my career in this the transparency that the the there were Had community and it was great because I feel like I learned a lot more about the least distribution of commendation letters So, I mean, I have a few again. That's always they're always coming in. We had multiple comments from or and How do we Let the public know how do we get out the all the good stuff that officers do day in and day out Because I think it's important that we just look at reality, you know We're gonna be talking about oversight later on and that's important too and that's part of our role But how do we also don't come out? I mean, I think that's what we officers that, you know, you know, there's some could be late at night or early in the morning, but No, that is a great idea and maybe just when we know that division is coming into us We could have a communication Process or procedure to go back out, you know to the officer might just be as simple as if we print up an email Yeah, writing a note on the email and sending it to the officer I mean I and then following up with the 12 year. Yeah. No, we'd want to We're trying to find a way to make that more meaningful and less rushed as well. I'm sorry So that's there'll be another opportunity to run it. What are the shifts? They got a swing shift and a day shift and a swing shape. Everyone loves a swing shift because it's 1 p.m It's like, you know, you can follow it or proceed it with a nap. It's no We're talking about like, you know, seven in the morning. So a lot of good So why don't we do this? I'm always in favor of rather than having some first starting off with some grandiose This is what we're going to do. You kind of test it. Yeah, like so Jim Would you go to roll Bob? Sorry Jim's here Bob's here get it, right? Not a household word How could we facilitate us getting Notes to the appropriate books I mean I can facilitate anything I think to start with so that if I'm doing it I prefer to get Not only from you input. I mean ultimately it's there's gonna be an incident and you know a satisfied citizen and Your gut reaction to it is is I think an account for a lot, you know, okay? Okay, I feel light up as as at face value as as we were so yeah Jim you said you could rotate through Yeah Yeah, let's rotate. So why don't we have for next month? Bob you go to roll call. I'll do the written piece Messing with me Peter and then we'll next month We'll rotate it around and that can be that person's responsibility that month. That sound and and it's for it So sorry you said this month Bob is gonna do roll call and and I will do the letters. We'll do letters. Yeah Yeah, it would be multiple roll calls But and and you do worry that there's a small worry that some cops would say why did not why did I get that? Why did she get the visit from the commissioner not me, but if we have a lot of them? That'll be a problem, but I don't mind right. No, no, no, I mean I I Know there's got to be just a certain level of acceptance and maturity right and the reaction We'll figure it out. We'll get somebody else to go Well, I think it just is also to open up communication between you and officers and you know The civilian oversight that we're gonna be talking about has come on their awareness and I think there's some listen Oh, that's a grippy the union comes of its own accord But after about a year just because we do a lot of talking about The cops and what the cops ought to do and this and that tonight You know all people I've ordered to come but the union comes You know are there one of any and you going to the members there at a roll call and being available to answer questions Just this opaque and I also have any thoughts about Okay, so let's try it and see how it goes Update on opiate epidemic and influx of Okay, yeah So I Know that we'd asked last month for an update on the opioid crisis We have here tonight with us the part time we she's full time She spits her time between us in the Chittenden County Opioid Alliance Kayla Donahue. She's an epidemiologist. She's not here tonight, but we are We just finished actually some new office space or over there So I'm proud to say where we've got to be the only like Police department per se that has an epidemiologist working for it But we were committed to taking a public health approach lightning is that as medical solutions not arrest Solutions or judicial solutions. So we are the tip of the spear It's just what kind of spirit is that matters and also because we're a city without a Public health unit without, you know, like New York City or Philly or Washington has the Department of Health Brolin's in does not but the mayor's commitment to opioids is is serious. So Do happen sees while talk about some data answer questions, but just to to you know, I don't know it's a Be what is it called something our own drum or trumpet or horn or what a tutor on horn you know, even of late the the National Institute of General Agenda for Opioids and police dad the Atlanta dots. Um, you got to see both of those cities in your lifetime, right? But they present our work there and you'll talk about this Maybe invited us down as guests to New York City, which created which the Com stat and now drug stat Asked us to come down and brief them on on what we're doing. So it was you know, kind of humbling to hear the creators of these database initiatives and go curl Kowsky as well as Cyrus fans the DA in New York as well as us as well as other police departments Is on there. So we're doing the substance behind that. I know Jackie and Nancy can talk about tonight. So thank you So There is a tremendous amount happening in Burlington that is catching the eye Nationally Burlington or let me just give you a few Initiatives and I know one of the questions that came out. Are we seeing an influx of fentanyl? And the answer to that is absolutely Are we seeing influx of other substances? We are starting to really see a huge influx of crystal meth, which Is for those of us who work in the field frightening when we talk about fentanyl and heroin and crack cocaine But I thought I would just give you a brief overview. So you can just be aware of what's happening in our city because it's pretty tremendous We meet monthly and we've been meeting monthly since November of 2016 in our Com stat We have a Com stat meeting which has stakeholders both federal stakeholders We have the federal prosecutor. We have federal probation It brings state stakeholders the agency of human services secretary And it's headed up by The Burlington mayor and the chief of police. We have on average to say Com stat really needs to be credited. We've had some tremendous things come out of Com stat from Looking at hospital prescribing practices mentioned We're viewing this as a public health initiative and if you look at Suboxone or bup, those are interchangeable The purpose of the medication is to stop people from overdosing and dying so that we can then have a conversation about What is the next step in your in your journey? Whatever that might be? We have brought speakers from around the country to Com stat. We brought some pretty significant authors This in physicians and doctors. We have a fellow by the name of dr. Jody rich out of Rhode Island Who is doing a lot around people who are incarcerated? Leaving with buprenorphine and I think really should be credited with speaking up and around There's a new act that just passed with the Department of Corrections Act 176 either on intake you'll be continued on your medication if you come in on medication and or 45 days prior to release you'll be offered medication and we know that people who leave the facility Who have been actively using that's a high risk time for overdose if you're not preparing them with with medication So that will be offered to folks We've also Been published in a number of newspapers from Vox to this we're Skyping in this Thursday John Stringinson He is from Iceland and we're looking at the Iceland model as a prevention initiative both within our community here But the state Jolinda Leclerc who's the prevention director They're also looking is this a prevention model that we want to look at with the state So there's some exciting things happening within Com stat within our city one of the things that how do law enforcement folks talk to each other and I quickly I'm a social worker by training and and I always joke and say I never thought in my career I'd be sitting in a police department But it has been an eye-opener for me to be sitting and see the work that's happening in this department It's not that listen and we talk about anyone who's overdosed whether it's fatal or non-fatal If it's fatal we take that as a failure What did we or what could we have done to prevent that from happening? If it's a non-fatal overdose then the question is how are we going to get to this person? The first and foremost job of sub stat is to get people into treatment or to get them Opportunity to know that there are people out there that care and that there are resources for them I can proudly say and it took some work By a number of people that we now have every law enforcement agency sitting around the table from state police to you know the city of Burlington to When you ski to Heinzburg to Essex they show up and prosecutor and the defense attorneys, right? We have the federal prosecutor the state prosecutor. We have the Department of Corrections and we have federal probation It's not a gacha meeting It's really a meeting about how can we help folks and I have had not only officers departments say this meeting is Tremendous because we're sharing information But I've had people on the street say I I really believe that saved my life What we are doing in sub stat is we are humanizing that these are human beings who have they're in the throes of a disease and It is it is tremendous and it is it's a wonderful opportunity And I would invite any of you if you want to see sub stat in action To go through those cases that have come up in two weeks and to really problem solve How are we going to get out the door? It might be street outreach. It might be I'm sorry to interrupt. You're also doing community stat this week, too, right? So yes community stat is Thursday from 8 30 to 11 at the At the Burlington Electric Department Park space. So that's something that to be clear It's not open to the public for two reasons one because we can talk about some Specific cases that are confidential and that people's dignity hangs in the balance and also because we have really Frank and sometimes pointed policy Related conversations that have led to great change the press and the public was there I think people would not speak as candidly, but as police commissioners You're obviously welcome to attend. So both the sub stat and the com stat. Yeah, that's right. So sub stat is here bi-weekly It's well, we've we rotate it happens to be next week here. It'll be in the Burlington Police Department But we share the energy and we go to different police departments Laura can email that out to the action and also community stat is at the Burlington spark space on Thursday at 8 30 That's a two and a half hour meeting. You can come at the beginning or for the whole time or up until the break But it's it's worth it's worth checking out and that's every Thursday. That's last Thursday of the month Oh last Thursday of the month, okay So the other initiative that's come out of com stat is a is an initiative and I excuse the stats Everything seems to have a stat at the end Is what we call family stat. We had the director of DCF Beth Maher who comes to com stat say, you know what? We have really high-risk families We have a number of kids going into foster care. We have a number of kids who are languishing in foster care We have a number of young parents and we can't talk about those in com stat. There's confidentiality So I'd like to talk to you Jackie about starting family stat So we have started a new initiative with DCF with a variety of community community players You get to family stat if you meet one of two criteria You've had three or more overdoses in a week or you're looking at long-term incarceration These are the highest risk mothers and fathers in our community Come into family stat and the objective of family stat is to access services for this caregiver mother or father and To limit the amount of time we've separated the child from the parent because we know from addiction that trauma is one of the precursors that that Number high number of people who are who are currently addicted have significant trauma events that happened at a certain point in their life so what we want to do is limit the amount of time the child and the mother or father are separated and Get them immediate access to treatment and really call the community What could they be doing better? So we've had two moms But two moms right now that are very very high risk and Five and a six-year-old have witnessed some pretty significant life events. So Through the work that we're doing in our community. We have other subgroups that have stepped up I think I'd also just say that we have this hub and spoke system of care Which I think everyone has heard of the Chittenden Clinic They have access for a thousand clients right now. They're at 976 We have a spoke system of care where doctors can treat people with buprenorphine And we're working with those those individuals as well So we have some incredibly exciting things happening. And lastly, I think I would say You know when my position started and the chief can jump in, you know, it says policy In it, but it quickly turned into direct service And since I started this position in October of 16, I've had 72 people 72 cond individual contacts 51 of those folks I've seen more than twice and out of that 23 of them. We've been able to access treatment. I Have learned a lot by being here because you know, I will have detectives call up and say I have somebody that we just brought in Can you talk to them or I will have somebody that I come across and I will go to an officer or or Detective and say I need help and it has been an incredible learning experience for I believe for both roles in the department And it's something that hopefully will continue for for a while because I think that There are people who come through the store and have said the only time I come through here is when you've arrested me Like you're going to take me into your office. That's by the chief Is he gonna like is there a warrant out for my arrest and it humanizes when they're sitting in my office And they see him walking in and out or they see some of the other officers walking We're people and we're all trying to get creative and step out of the box and figure out how to address this Horrific nightmare that we find ourselves in so Jackie. I have a question for you So is are you employed by the police department city you're employed by the city and your office is here Yes, she reports to the chief of police Paid by the city Okay What is the access to treatment at one time? I know it was something you were Concerned about that even people who wanted it couldn't get in is that is that shifting now? It's it's not Perfect, but it's much better than it was before yeah Absolutely much better Like I said, there are oh two days But but this is what we know the folks that were trying to get into treatment two years ago We're a different entity than what we're finding right now And if if Bob Bick the CEO of Howard Center were here he would articulate this what we're seeing now are a younger group of people We're seeing crystal meth come on the scene Fat no we see more crack cocaine too. Well, I think crack cocaine has been around but it hasn't been Because fentanyl was really people were paying attention because of the damage of fentanyl But yes, we're seeing we're seeing crack cocaine. We're seeing in some parts of the state Fentanyl cut into crack cocaine We're seeing a fair amount of crystal meth right now We're also seeing a younger dynamic one of the things we were just talking about this morning That we can talk about treatment until we're blue in the face But if we don't have stable housing and job accessibility for folks Then that makes it that much more of a challenge to get sustained recovery for folks So my question is we've been talking about recovery and it sounds like the work that's been done is amazing Are you involved in anything that's talking about prevention? Yes, okay. Yes, and so that's why we're bringing in a Fellow from Iceland to our Comstat meeting on Thursday, and he's going to talk about this model called the Iceland model So Comstat is not only a city an issue in County Opiate Alliance as a work group because it's connected to the CCOA it's my role Has access to the health department in the prevention group at ADAP, which is part of the health department Yes, we We talk a lot about treatment and that's kind of how it's been. I used to be the clinical director for the state We had this enormous multimillion dollar budget and treatment in this little budget in prevention I think we know we need to do better with that And I think our secretary of agency of human services is aware of that but to answer your question. Yes So prevention is very enigmatic it oftentimes requires like system so first of all dare like drug abuse resistance education the dare program of the The 90s like the research on it says it was not that successful as a prevention initiative a lot of prevention involves like Issues of parenting the Iceland model is really deeply rooted in their culture So it's a big bear to Engage in successful prevention But there's another idea of prevention Which is worth noting and you can go back to the AIDS crisis. It's the idea of prevention through treatment, which is The more people who had the the viral load of the HIV virus suppressed in them The less they were spreading that virus So heroin is not contagious in the sense that like HIV viruses But it is a social contagion in some ways meaning like, you know people who are highly addicted And we you know we gave a philosophical talk about this But people who are highly addicted to opioids tend to organize the world around them to support that addiction that involves Inviting drug dealers to their community and saying i'll sell these drugs on your behalf if you keep me supplied, right? It involves persuading your friends to use drugs if you're a parent using drugs in the home It's your children or as they enter adolescence or elevated risk, etc. There's all of that So In the long term we're dealing with things like the iceland model In the shorter term Just getting as much effective treatment out there as possible Is a way to spread the prevention of the opioid Epidemic and so one of the things you've come away with we have this sort of gift with opioids If you don't have with other drugs, which is that there are medicines that are responsive to the addiction Vivitrol has some efficacy with alcoholism, but not that much There's no like antidote to there's no Narcan for cocaine or meth But you can you can there's no buprenorphine or methadone for cocaine or meth But we have because of the way it interacts with the body on the opioid receptors buprenorphine is like a lighter version of methadone It it has remarkable clinical efficacy. So we're finding with policing What really what we're finding the police are in a position to help with this, but is it there are all these opportunities where we can we can kind of persuade or cajole or at least make available the opportunity for people to to Voluntarily ingest methadone or more likely buprenorphine and suboxone. So prison for cop is going to go through the trouble of arresting somebody for committing a crime And they get incarcerated Rhode Island is shown that once they're there universally making buprenorphine available to them Reduce their post incarceration fatalities by two-thirds So there's a two-thirds reduction in post incarceration Mortality for opioid addicts when you treat them went in prison and then hand them off upon release to another treatment So part of our work Here in the city Is sponsoring statewide legislation that mandates the same treatment protocol here as in Rhode Island that's ramping up now That was a product of our our research and our lobbying And our collaboration. The other thing is when cops bring somebody to the emergency department for an overdose I think I've said this in the past but for months and months the hospital was presenting data at A community stat saying the number one thing that happens is they get reversed 90 something percent of the time They get reversed And just are kind of left to their own devices. Hey, we saved your life We reversed the overdose now you're discharged the remainder of the time basically they died the second most prevalent outcome was death so The hospital said What can we do to bridge that gap? One easy thing was putting recovery coaches in the emergency department. The other thing and it is a A pilot that's starting now is Prescribing buprenorphine in the emergency department and if you go back two weeks in the new york times their front page above the fold story was Very few hospitals in the u.s. Are giving out buprenorphine in the emergency department What the ones that are doing it are really saving lives And we are right hot on the tail of that here and that was because when you asked dr. Wilson from the ed He said I was tired of showing that the number one outcome was we just let you go The number two outcome was you died The third thing that we're looking at is in the needle exchange, which is you know our cops I mean, you know, lieutenant warren can attest like do our cops. What do they say? It can be candid like what do they say about the needle exchange? I know that they might not be fans of the hippie-dippy approach, but they're not like gunning for it You know, they come to accept that it's her purpose and it's just kind of exists. It's there. They're not yeah Right. No, no, that's right. I mean there's this worry that like a lot of cops holding in contempt Like you're facilitating use. I think our cops I was just told when I got here. We have a needle exchange, but for the first time Ever and again, this is a national pilot. We'll be giving out buprenorphine soon At the needle exchange and so these are not police. They intersect with policing But they're not driven by policing and this also not recognizes people reduces the cravings Staves off withdrawal and stops it from overdosing So our number one goal like as a cop my obsession is with reducing accidental mortality We're all going to die of old age. I don't want anyone to die of an accident. And so You could see you're getting a very police focused response like this drug reduces mortality The long-term projects that require real investments and systemic changes recovery for the people who stabilized and prevention that's next So maybe someone else I have a question. I was Who asked to have this discussed and I my question was prompted by the fact that one I think since The turn of the century people in burlington have bought into the idea that treatment is important. It should be So that's not something that you have to sell. I don't think but what I my quote what prompted me to ask is I looked at the the health department statistics by county And state-wide we went down last year Chittenden county We went up to 41 overdose deaths and my question was What's happening in burlington? Uh, and then the second question that I raised was If fentanyl's the driver, what are we doing to stop? I understand that You say it's there's an influx of it. What what are we doing to stop it? That's a way of So I think yeah, okay, so here's a here's something that just started two weeks ago Safe recovery started to hand out fentanyl test strips It's the only place in vermont where you're going to have access to a fentanyl test strip. So Um, what you hear from folks who are addicted? They don't know a fentanyl Is in is in heroin sometimes folks want it other times folks don't want it There's a concern that people are moving to crystal meth because they're terrified of of fentanyl We don't know we're we're just now starting to gather But they had 3 000 fentanyl test strips two weeks ago. They've given out 365 test strips in two weeks What that says are that people really want to know What's in their substance? So that's one initiative when we talk about fentanyl In chittenden county the goal is to make sure those test strips are not just at safe recovery We want to make sure that those test strips are throughout our community so that people can have have access to those But mine is a very basic question. What are you doing to stop fentanyl from coming in? No, I know I I got the sense So one thing I do believe we are Becoming a hub. We've always been a hub for drug dealing In in the northeast and we've had the luxury on this side of the state of primarily being supplied by New York City suppliers Which were were later to adopt fentanyl than the syndicates out of boston, which is why you saw number one boston and then like laurence and wuster and those areas Getting hit with overdose increases and then new hampshire got clobbered by fentanyl And it really is a geographic thing. It's harder to get across the connecticut river. There's only 189 runs up there The distribution networks are are are not accustomed to bringing it into vermont that way The men and women who bring it up on the north way Are bringing up a lot more fentanyl what we have not done So so there's a two a two-part answer Attacking the supply of drugs has never if it was working at any point in american No matter what the budget was the price of drugs would have gone up Because the supply would have been that that's absolutely right. It has not Because supply side interdiction I'm not saying well There's two parts to this answer has never been a decisive solution to the opioid crisis But or any drug crisis we have not Pulled back on that at all. In fact, we're doing more of it than ever ever. It's good to have lieutenant war in the room because when he Took over the detective squad and then we brought paul petrelia in to run narcotics We our public health approach Has has has a bifurcation like if you're a low level dealer out here on the streets who's dealing out of addiction We want to get you into treatment if you're coming up here If you're not a vermont resident you take casual trips up here to just unload Uh, you know a shoebox full of fentanyl and bring the money back down. We're we're gonna Make a case and prosecute you and I don't know if you want to talk a little bit about that But our because you did give this briefing actually that our Prosecutions of external dealers of drugs have not abated. In fact, they've gone up. So I know you didn't come here with the slides, but you did brief this before Um, you know, we have a drug unit It includes three detectives plus one of the DEA task force and it's run by a supervisor They also have a street crimes unit, which is a separate independent unit that deals with street level enforcement of different crimes whether it's burglaries or carburettes or Wild back, uh, you know folks shooting windows with BB guns and that sort of thing So they deal with a lot of those street level issues and problems But they also work with the drug unit and supplement the numbers that we have in there. So Um, you know, there has been no Decrease in the amount of enforcement actions, you know, they're still Working lots of cases lots of long hours, you know, taking off drug dealers You know interacting with the low-level users and trying to get those people connected with jackie Sometimes using them to cooperate to try and you know work up the chain and drug cases And then go after the larger targets the people that are bringing the drugs here from outside that We're trying to prevent from continuing to do that. So, um, you know, we're not going around picking up people that are you know low-level drug users and and uh, you know hammering them with I don't think anybody is in the last 10 years anybody said that you should prosecute people who are addicts. Oh, we're just making that which is yeah But to your point about the number of the state going down, but the number of deaths that we're only keep going up I mean, I don't think we have any data to suggest that that's A result of anything and certainly I'm not sure I think there's not even sure they went up in burlington I just know they went up in chinning county. Yeah, no, that's that's right Those numbers are going to have in fall are going to be times where state-wide they may be down for a particular reason And they remain constant here or they should have gone up statewide But for some random reason outside of chinning county there might have had other factors that influence that And you know, I don't know what those numbers suggest But I know there's still strong enforcement and there's a lot of work being done on this side One thing that's interesting bob, I though I'm sorry to you know, and I want you to continue but it's an aside Since we're talking about it. It's very difficult and irritating to get like city level is of co-level data about who's dying and when the closest it comes So our records management system Was home built by vermont police departments and was not designed in a way that makes it easy at all To know who died why when and where which confounds me a little bit because we're in the business of figuring out why people die But you can sort of attest to that Can you give like a maybe a three or four sentence snapshot about that? I've looked it's respond to but that doesn't Limit to whether they're fatal or not and and actually you can overdose on a number of things besides opioids too so Responses to overdoses have actually been down in the city over the past summer and year Compared to other past summers, but I have not really been able to get like clear counts of Fatalities because You have to look through any untimely death to see if it was opioid related and and that's just Not reliable. I'm not making it. I'm not happy about this So one of the reasons why I'm saying it to you is because I'm I'm just I just I don't understand why you can't because The state's attorney gets autopsies Right and the autopsies Take care of that. I mean I used to keep track of them by the child You have to create so where we have clarity at the county level because the state's attorney is a county level entity So then we'd have to convince the state attorney that to further break them out by city or Or zip code which which which we could do I did right? I used to right. Oh, I know So to your point though, but I mean, I'm just I'm sorry. I didn't know. I mean it just it just is frustrating And it's not anyone's fault I guess but It looks to me like everything's been going up in Chittenden County until this last year And the statistics show that Chittenden County is actually doing pretty well And I just want to know why and I mean we'll be I I don't want to take credit for anything until it's happened for a few years So so I think the city's on the right track and I think we have the science is 70s and 80 science that Stigma and culture stopped us from adopting when it comes to methadone and buprenorphine and suboxone and needle exchanges and treatment And so what's amazing about it like Again to go back to the age crisis They had to make a cocktail in the middle of the age crisis Of drugs to suppress the virus. It was this new development of pharmacology All of the things that we're talking about that are proven to reduce morbidity and mortality and opioids have existed for quite some time But culturally we were just Getting around to embracing them. Um as far as the the data goes Yeah, we're seeing like a plateau and we'll know by the end of the year if the plateau is is down Hopefully or level, but we're getting you know, if you aren't quotes coming out of the times Like verman is one of the in red island for example in messachusetts are the few states where there's uh a plateau Fentanyl is definitely the biggest threat Um, I don't think that we're going to be able to arrest our way out of it But as a matter of principle we want to hold people accountable for selling fentanyl one of the changes that mike and uh Sergeant patrella lieutenant warren and sergeant patrella steward. It was we were treating our Police our department level in narcotics operations with the same We were using the same tactics and techniques as for our local investigations as we were using for federal investigations the sergeant that was running the Narcotics unit we spent a lot of time in the federal task force and his habit talking about sergeant kutcher was to his very long high quality developed federal style investigations at the state and local level as well And one of the changes we made was to continue doing those with the dea with our task force officer, but to do shorter um Faster turnaround local level narcotics investigations basically tripled the rate of those investigations Uh, and we've continued to so it's not for uh For lack of trying like we will hold people accountable But I got to be candid and it's not just just towing some political line I don't think we're going to be able to reduce Fentanyl through interdiction. I just think we're going to be able to hold a few people accountable for bringing it here So there's no hope For what there is hope for interdicting fentanyl No, the way it it just to quenching the supply I mean, no seriously, isn't it a hopeless? No, it's a nightmare because The fentanyl you need to to you know, turn a huge profit Could literally fit in the hollowed out tube of this pen And then and then get cut into thousands of doses. It's manufactured in factories abroad and you know, china And comes in through south america. So I don't think I don't think a border wall is going to stop fentanyl from coming in here and I don't think Uh, certainly not like and one of the things our cops don't do Because it is it's not fruitful is like just pull over cars from out of state and say like, you know Let me see if we can catch some fentanyl It's just not if you look at our facts and you could attest to this like we're not doing like Fentanyl hunting by pulling over rental cars coming up from new york city. So So what what are you doing? You want it? I mean you could talk about uh So to put you on the spot. What's that? Are you is it hopeless? No, no If the goal is to secure chitening county and then burlington's borders from fentanyl Influx through enforcement. That's not going to work. No, it's we all we all understand that But what do you do is it is it you just have to accept that it's going to be here and then Treat the way treat our way out of it and accept some This is a question probably for jackie what i'm hearing is it's not anyone who has an idea. Yeah, I mean I'll stop. No, no, no, it's it's a real it's it's the heart of the question It's a public health. The government has to do something to save people's lives and this is a crime That's a felony that's occurring. I mean, it's not uh Something to take lightly we talked to dan merchant is uh, so To take a minute to brag about Sergeant merchant when I got this job and I was still down in new york city the man who's now the chief of department of the NYPD said He was a three-star chief then I mean he said you're going to meet a guy named dan merchant Who is one of the best narcotics investigators? We've seen and he's our man up in vermont who helps us make all these cases So the highest levels of the nypd knew that we had this gem and dan is running narcotics now And he is in a very affectionate way. He is sensed to this. He's the rain man of this He knows the players the people where they're coming from. He's constantly making cases. I don't know if you want to I know dan. He was a student of minor champlain college. I worked with them all uh, so I'm not I'm just trying to understand What your position on if it's I understand that we will take and make every friend in all traffic in case we can get But we we we seized for example like in colchester. They seized a kilo and a half Uncut of heroin. Oh and it affected nothing it didn't There were no pharmacy robberies. There were no desperate drug rips. There was no um, you know, uh Increase in the price the informants were not saying my god I'm in withdrawal like you can seize a kilo and a half which is enough to supply The entire city of runuski for x number of days and it affects Nothing is is the is the answer then that our answer is that the only way to deal with this is to treat our way out of it So I think this is multifaceted. I think that Right. I think in this department you have narcotics unit going out Working with folks issuing warrants doing arrests. That's one component The other component is to work with folks recognizing Right that we have a vast majority of people who don't want to do this and so offering them some sense of hope And then we talk about the prevention and the intervention. So I can say burlington is coming at this It is incredibly all hands on deck multifaceted Calling our nonprofits out about what could you be doing differently calling our state partners out our federal partners out And working with law enforcement in shittinning county. So We don't have enough time, but we could go through all the initiatives There's a multifaceted Trying to get at this issue fentanyl number one I will say one thing though that that like there is no Street level dealing that goes on in burlington. So you will not see like when I got here There are people standing on the corner of north street and you're left out and like pitching drugs That doesn't happen I mean, we would we would be really swift and aggressive and there's little tolerance in the city for street level dealing so every person who deals Is dealing out of someone's house as a guest And usually it's a person who is addicted and if there's one way that we could make Good progress it would be focusing on the people who host The dealers they don't even Deal, I mean a motel. It's not like you just knock on the door of a motel And but there's sometimes a deal staying in motels, but they're not distributing out of those motels So, you know it it one of the things that we could really stand to have a unified approach towards is is Putting a lot of pressure on the host whether it's the treatment or saying you own a jail But you'll be treated in jail. I think that's a an avenue where we could really Focus our approach, but it would require The judiciary to be like a real unified partner in this and the judiciary's response to A low level. I'm sympathetic to wanting to treat them and whether they're in jail or not I always want them to be treated. I'm not saying that just as a caveat I agree, but I think red island does a great job of treating its prisoners for addiction Our judiciary is all over the field when it comes to how they treat the person who comes in as a defendant Who's hosting a drug dealer? Some some of them see it as you're the victim time serve get out of here Others want to throw the book. I mean you could attest to that and I can attest to that That's the same problem Well a long time ago. We had a really I'm sorry to take so much. No. No. No, this is This is the thing that's killing the most for month. There's accidentally now period So you get like 15 murders a year and you get 41 people Dying right in the county by accident. No, bob. Thanks for asking to put this on the agenda Thank you for sending when the comm stat meetings are and the sub stat I can't make this this thursday, but I plan to attend so I think it would be probably good for all of us as commissioners to In the next several months um, you know to Try to get to one or Would you please send out a when the meetings are I do I'll do that tomorrow. Okay. Thanks, laura The other piece too is that you can go to the city page the mayor's page and there's a link Where you can get in and see the comm stat Past comm stat meetings in the day Okay, review of civilian oversight initiative process and next steps So I will start um I I actually But I think all of us have did everybody have a copy of the role of burlington police commission so If I were asked to do by city council um You know broadly speaking it's our responsibility to make sure that The police department so you can make an online complaint On the website anywhere you have it is also on the we have copies here. We'd probably go online and print one out Right. I'll complain. Um, we're due another packet. I know that um chief right Being the only chief with chief del pozo out and no deputy when we're able to give um our advice our council Uh to the chief Here's where it gets so so that's our so that's our responsibility to keep monitoring that keep asking questions Do we have confidence in in in chief del pozo? I don't have we're not Jury and judge the chief off Where we want more information and we're not getting it information that we can not information that we're not supposed to get Um, or we don't trust the way that he's really unclear to folks. What are we supposed to do and are we doing it? So I'll give you my opinion and we can open up for discussion based on the reason do The question I I think you answered it if we don't have the power The authority to do an independent investigation old sunson And then if and that would be a conversation and you know, that's that's his boss And if we don't feel that that's resolving the issue, let's say we don't see then we get what we want And I think one of the functions and you've seen You know sarah kenny for example has made statements or christine longmore has made state on ability on my part through the commission is and you know spare legally or This needs to be looked at community. That's that's breaking news. So um, I think Your role is to be that sort of lens, right? Have to work Yeah, and we can do that here and and you know, is there anything like we need to have I'm thinking We're testing this model out, but we're testing it out for ten main a ball and we're looking at it from all different Angles, but how far can we take this as a police commission? It does talk about um oversight It's it's it's anticipating some degree of independence at least I believe at least that is the impression That you know, I think oversight committees create independent bodies A newly appointed something new it's an initiative being created Um, and that is they're involved with And action is really part of the management of this department. We have management responsibility overall for the department We approve all the procedures that take place You know, uh, so you know, we are sort of part of management as opposed to an entirely independent planes and processing them You know from a distance and and I don't know If and you know, there's that one quote I think then doing before this ever came in frankly my My experience chief and correct me if I'm wrong is that before this was The procedure was not a whole lot different that you would come in with discipline issues Complained issues that would be reviewed your your recommendations we would use we would hear It may have been a little bit less formal off the bat one is um By putting the so the the State police have a Portal you can find where you can make a complaint against them online, but by it used to be before Take the complaint reporting process out of the hand No, when when you when you made that with the fact that for the first time ever In the last year you're seeing the actual civilian complaints unmediated like the reports you get or what are entered and reported by the The person the complainant ever is the police have often found themselves on the commission and that It's just a lot of you know going along to getting along and rubber stamping, but plain to review And then beyond that like to send to which you feel you're Any of you are beholden to the city? I mean, I I'm I want to be clear that I'm not overly concerned with What we've been doing and that we continue to do it. I don't want to Create a misunderstanding, you know, we go into executive session and we hear stuff and we you know We question you but you know, you're you know, we're relying upon you really to a large extent and and the department So, you know, I mean SPAC for example, we you know that was to sit on an independent committee They don't help manage the state police Except to the extent that when they determine that there is going to be disciplined The commering about all the nuances and helping to basically run a run the state police It's a separate independent body and that's not what we are And the perception of that out there is what I'm more concerned about But but I think we have we should be clear that it's not necessarily as transparent perhaps to some people who have Help to put this together separate from the police commission Maybe no, I'm not I'm not I'm sorry. I don't mean to go ahead. No, I was going to say because quite frankly, I think our role we don't play is making sure that things are transparent and that We understand we can get in the head of our chief and we understand the philosophy that they have From my opinion to have a separate now a separate entity What are we doing As the police commission because that separate entity still is not doesn't have any more power than we would have They would just be another group of citizens doing the exact same thing And if they weren't happy they would have to go to the mayor city council So that group doesn't really have any other power than we do I think your point though is that we've got a person they were the city council refers to oversight If you look at oversight and you look at how True oversight does usually involve a degree of independence that we not put I mean as I said gets direction, but you know, you're we're tied into sort of the overall I think the the it's getting looked at and that will be the problem because someone will start to challenge Perhaps challenge that independence. So I'm not suggesting we not do it the way it's being proposed But I think we should nuances that are that we're talking about here and that you know We can do what we clear about what we are doing more so than Suggesting we create another body. I mean as I read the literature in some of the big cities That's what they do because it does that and it comes to us You know, and I think that's the question I have is the degree of independence that is that is perceived by our community When we make those decision that we want so there's full transparency and we are Advising the chief And oversight to me I get what you're saying But the other thing I feel but I've had to get to know and understand it part of being a police commissioner is it's I've invested a lot of time in trying to understand the department And that gives me then better information so that I even know if the chief is making good decisions or not It's hard to do that in a vacuum. So I mean I'll give you I'll give you an example I mean we have a labor contract that includes Our commission sitting as a I think it's a second or third step after the chief in the process of reviewing discipline Answers and I think I've told people this before but you know, you know, the We would come to the chief with a grievance. Let's say and chief would deny it So our next step was to come to the cost that with this way of our right to go there All right now, you know, that's just one example, but you know, we are currently still those We're going to hear the facts. We're going to let's say agree You know, I think we've we've compromised a municipality sets up a an oversight committee and creates it from scratch and appoints five people They don't have that long history He's just independent and if they're human resources department, etc. Etc. For dealing with internal behavior the we don't Our oversight is not about what happens if an officer is late or does something internally That's dealt internally because they're all city employees Is that accurate? Complaints we're really Officer so-and-so has has got to go because of what happened before he does that he goes to SPAC He lays out what that discipline is going to be and why he believes that that officer should be terminated They they discuss it as an independent body. They agree with him. He goes back He fires our direction to fight where it includes Internal kind of I don't know if I could point to it and see By whom that complaint was received etc. But it certainly doesn't give the commission the kind of broad authority over general police discipline as Did you find that as commissioner harp was saying that's how I Revealing Back model from when I'm from gathering from what you're saying it sounds like that the SPAC Organization if this is meant to exclude that then we really have two tracks That were engaged in if I'm correct one is a citizen complex that officers so-and-so, you know did something You know To and we would have to and at the at the same time the department's investigating that if again discipline as well Pasty or you know any of these serious things maybe there isn't even a citizen complaint made from it So I think I think this has been discussed before and I think the chief has About the point that you know he'd be letting you know about these major These major email So I mean I I think that if you look at the impetus for you know And I see it. I mean having worked this union Where you're coming from is is is clear and correct at least the concerns But when you look in oversight us in the commission to address that and it also wasn't about internal matters such as you know excessive tardiness or Leaving your engine of your cruiser idling it was about it was if you look at christine and so being taken seriously Transparent window into say to the the world I've seen everything that they've had to offer and it's being done well So so I think that you actually write. I mean I'm not you are right about the the worry that There's just contract language about grievances that is not that wasn't the concern of the people calling us And they they want as much civilian to be candid as much civilian Honestly control as possible at how we discipline and then my feeling on that is My job as the chief is to impose discipline and then my job is also to account to To the citizenry about how I've done it in a way that holds me accountable And honest, I see that as being employed for or why I see that as oversight that goes beyond Disciplinary oversight. It's oversight about about You know how the police department operates. I mean, I think that we made this agree I think that was the intent and I guess lastly is as a minor thing be at large the council Folks may argue that the mayor is only gonna Yeah, yeah, yeah I mean I but I mean if you look at the models and some of these some of these articles that were handed out You know, there's a model where you know, they're they're independently appointed And then they have their own independent investigation in the bigger cities, right? Then in the smaller cities, they're still independently appointed But then they rely upon the internal, you know, his department do an internal investigation and and for you to come in and tell us Um, as I said though, you know, to me, it's more a perception issue that you know that when you come when the chief comes in to tell us about it He's coming in to tell us civilian complaints and account for consistency and account for His or her investigations And that's kind of what the oversight people want But when we do the math the minimum To set up that apparatus and we I'm talking is like a thousand if you just took the salary and benefits of that person Divided up by the number of complex we're talking about averaging out to oversight in their resolution is perhaps the city council Viewing us a little bit differently than how at least I view us in terms of our engagement And creating in the community an accurate representation of what we are in fact doing All right, I mean that that that's what i'm essentially saying. I'm not looking to civilian complaints Unfortunately, I just have like Nancy responsible for updating like I'll just throw this out and I'm hoping the answer is what I think it is Which is not a number of complaints we got these are the categories they're broken down into These are the the results whether they're substantiated or not substantiated or sustained or not sustained or unfounded And here are the cases in which they were founded and here's the Comply with it with the union in the city's confidentiality requirements But we're not even doing that right now like it would take me a day or two Nancy a day or two you guys more than a few days to even Recap the work you've done in reviewing the complaints and and we could stand I don't Oh, we wouldn't have done to make that public and I think you're right. I think the chief is right I think that would be a that would be very helpful to be at the out of city council meeting and explain that I think yes, I think I I jim I hear what you're saying my takeaway from what you're saying and is uh We have a perception problem. We also need to be very clear about what our role is I in my opinion, I think we can accomplish it But we need to be very cognizant of how we do it and make sure that we are doing it and that we're Going at least talk to public safety and say here's what's happening and Laura would you help me to set that up? I'm happy to go. Does anybody want to come with me? Well, so I had asked at the last meeting for a copy of what exactly were tasked to do by public safety I don't know that we have that here, but I would still like to see that if possible We're just tasked there It's just written in the resolution that we have to report back to public safety. It wasn't that public safety gave us an additional So we we we needed to do some back work to figure out how we got here So there's been a lot of change so Michelle and I met just because you had asked for this and we had to kind of figure out How we got here. So what you have here in front of you is kind of how we got here We have the draft that was Is a resolution in february Which you have here also that was at the point where they suggested doing something like SPAC and just to point out We'll get here sooner and what you about the ways in which this is Following up on what Jim was talking about whether this is similar and different to what happens It's part of convincing and look at that recommendation that he's going to make and then say We think that that was done in terms of practical terms is not going to be much different from Here's here's what i'm facing. Here's what i'm thinking. What do you think? So that's the way it's actually played out where we do have I don't doubt that might so we might have to change the length Is the role which is as it's formalized or is that just the way that's been conventionally done? I think it's probably fascinating to think about Ways of making sure that these procedures are safe across First generations across kind of changes in chief that it be articulated Rather than just implicit point This is just that for the again for the first time I remember this because I was even on the phone with the union as the not all the civilian computer but as commissioner dum brought up the Sorry to we're just rehashing stuff, but We do have this grievance role here in the commission And so the idea that not everybody sees every complaint stems from the fact that if if all complaints were shared with all commissioners And we reviewed all of them. So that's the first I don't know whether there's any formal role which is laid out for the commission And when also wants to grieve a particular decision that which was made but Again, I don't you know excessive for short of serious physical injury or death like you're just roughing someone up so to speak You know abusive or discourteous language Um, you know racial epithets all that rises above that like misconduct corruption something could be termination or arrest Everybody hears that there's no it's not compartmentalized just to clarify that it goes Um This empowers the commission Right and actually I haven't seen the grievance language. So I'd like to I'd like to see I mean to some extent though our power sort of gone Well our power comes From you coming in here and telling us and getting our we don't have we can't make a decision anyway So but you're coming in here and sharing out you here to argue we've probed it and maybe we've changed with it But whatever it is, it's kind of our decision year And then You know There really isn't a role to be played if there's an appeal to come to us and You know, then the chief's out there as one of the parties and that was the idea of keeping Some people separate and not having them here And and getting involved with approving or agreeing with the chief over it. I'm not sure that You know, I think it's it's it's perhaps workable. I'm not sure that the perception that you know All commissioners and just how that gets perceived and whether the union it would be interested to hear whether the union would bother coming to you know, at that stage or wave that and just move on just because of Perceptions, I don't know that would be interesting for the you know for the union to To perhaps let us know about what they're comfortable with are not comfortable with Uh The next part of something to make was whether that practice is even consistent with uh, the the role of the Brunsett police commission You know, so that that document does state that the chief, you know, for example in Number five the chief will report the term the commission is somewhat vague, right? So it's not clear whether that you know, whether the commission refers to a subset of the commission or to the chair of the commission or to every commissioner, right? Um, and I think that you kind of commissioners can Point four because that means each individual commission commissioner will have access to these records upon the body which might require the chair I'm sure that has worked out in practice quite well in the past again. I haven't participated in that It's done in practice The Personnel issues are really the same at least parks. So I mean, I think you're right the discipline and if I So, you know, we're we're similar right to this department You know, we are You know, I mean, you know the executive and us kind of as citizens kind of helping to guide him when he needs guidance and support Right. No, but not stepping back and and necessarily looking at something and and I don't think it was worth anything I'm not doing anything. And you know, maybe we Come in before this came on since December. So I was only here a couple of months when this came in but Um, you would comment. I think there's two things happening here. One is this Sort of like very jurisprudential look at the process here and and and the mechanisms and the accountability and the Literally like the checks and balances between various branches and powers city council mayor police department, and then there's also just this this honestly is this political question that's looming like what this this whole impetus this city council was petitioned by people who Um Did not have faith in the either two things the the transparency and then the efficacy of our disciplinary process Um, I don't necessarily agree with them to be candid with you But um, but I did think as you saw hope through my actions that there was transparency concerns that I had that I did not like or agree with that I Worked my way with through through the union that I think I remediated as far as like off to the my opinion Anyway, we own accounting to the city council We have to feel comfortable in our on our role and our powers and in the relationship. It has to conform to You know, I'll call them like jurisprudential principles and expectations But we also have to analyze like why this happened and and who ought to be satisfied and what for you know The nation this this all started at the summer that the nation was being rocked by the shooting of unarmed people across the country Right, and I'm not saying that that's not legitimate Our community they then came and said Whoa, you know, do we have an adequate window into what our police department's doing and and that we have to account for that I mean, I'm not just trying to Say it's all political but but this was would do it the same way Or the person in your position wasn't doing it. No, I don't know. I think it's I think it's really important to um If I might to I think what what commissioner done and commissioner harp were saying is is Valuable, which is it we have to have something in writing that takes Customs and turns them into I mean, I think that's true And then you and you have to feel the right level the right empowerment to to do this job but then I also think a deeper question is Literally who who are we trying to satisfy and why and the answer is always going to be at least the city council and the The mayor because they're democratically elected right but then beyond that like satisfy feedback. Is it any commissioner? Can request access to written records? Is it a quorum of us? We sort of vote What is that? I mean, I would I would Wrongly recommend that each commissioner have access to These records as the community but but asking for Um advice so we can change that language is are people here comfortable if we go to public safety with those Recommended changes and actually let them know what we've been doing this past year And I so no to butchress what you were saying I think we've had instances where I add is I'd want it at some language I'd prefer to say in the you know in the in the official business of the commission So it's not just like, you know, my uncle got collared and he made a complaint. I mean, which is obvious But I just think it it would be helpful to say that The the other thing which I'm not again, I can't make a judgment I haven't had a chance to make the commission or to a subset of the commission because I don't know yet about The way that the commission's involved forming grievance process, etc That's the one thing which I'm also kind of unsure about whether what's the best practice with respect to that I mean we can repay here's what we've done. Here's some of the language Um, and we need another year because we're we're still Six months I don't even know what we're going to do in that commissioner Who's not been through this, you know with us and we're we're going to Give six months for you to actually see the process have some input, but this is what we've been doing Seems to be working we feel like we're getting full transparency I I maybe chief we put into this role of we report to the city council twice again We're reporting back to so people feel like they have information And I to jim's point if we're not If we don't change the perception of what we're doing people aren't going to understand it We have to actually put it out there and yeah, I mean one of the things that chief said I think agreed that for the most part We were doing largely this before this came up And so if that was the case and then you had groups come in We're really these groups didn't see this in place as a requirement. I don't disagree and having a you know having a Having a procedure for it damping a complaint I think that when the city council presents this to the community that it also understands Oh, no, I mean I don't I don't and I don't think we are I think I think when the group came like create any illusions I don't we're sanctifying it and we're tweaking it and making it stronger, but I'm not disagreeing. Do you know what I mean? I'm not disagreeing. Okay I'm I'm happy with what you're proposing. All right, personally And then we'll go to the public safety to let them know we've been doing Executing what they've outlined here for the role of the police the official business of the police Rather than just the chief reporting to Okay, Jen has a question Is everybody good on that? The statutes that establish SPAC kind of also make avenues are for each member of SPAC If they are concerned with the way that the procedure kind of the decisions that were made on the part of the The evaluating officer Um, including it says things like, you know, the the member of SPAC can can contact the meat statutes As far as I can tell The uh, the the the recourse that's laid out in this document for what the commission can do if it's concerned about the way That this was handled It just says the commission may And then it lays out what it can do, you know, except the chief supports So it again runs up against this question of What does the commission refer to here whether it refers to kind of all of us acting as a body whether it refers to what people can do individually Um, I know that you you said you had discussions with the Uh, the the state lawyer and also with someone else about um, speaking for example with people as as an individual as an individual member of the commission Um, but that's I wonder if it would make sense to lay out exactly kind of what The procedure looks like for the commission if it has concerns about the way that The decision is made on the part of the chief or whatever that is For example going may accept or if the chief does not accept You know, okay, we need to go beyond the chief if we feel That's appropriate, you know Just something not that we couldn't go beyond it But there was nothing ever really articulated and what so maybe being able to confer with human resources in the city attorney Right or something, you know that that allows it to just you know To take a concern beyond that and whether that should be an individual commissioners You know, I think it's HR and and the city attorney to see And again, it depends on the types of I mean, I don't know how other commissions work because I'm sure there's personnel issues You know disciplinary issues required in the department of public works So right now all I'll say is you know, I While I think the parallel is important and while I think that also again with respect to kind of questions of of You know kind of discipline of city employees, I think that's important to draw the parallels there But you know, there are obviously important differences between kind of the the need for public accountability for Disciplinary actions involving officers and other city employees, right? So there's I mean there's an important asymmetry in how in the justification for why we do this kind of oversight Yeah, yeah, okay. So here's a question Do you do you want me to talk to the city attorney and the nhr before we go talk to public safety? No, I was also saying just as an aside that maybe the recourse for If you disagree with my findings you're saying that have it written have it codified that the committee that the commission has the ability to Bring it to others attention. It may be good to start with I mean, that's really the oversight really, you know I mean as long as we're agreeing with the chief, you know But if we don't how do we Create this oversight because otherwise we just you know, okay Maybe all disagree, but he goes off and does it anyway Well, and at that point you get to suppose we meet with the chief and I disagree I think that's a bad idea, but everybody else agrees. That's what I'm saying. Maybe some are all, you know, that's that's another issue You know, there's seven of you So if six, you know, it may be I mean I think we need to make it so that if one person's like they can't just go and talk to the city the mayor and then We've had that we've had that and then we've had commissioners go to the press and say I think this whole thing's a sham. I mean, that's Stopping maybe maybe you should be specific that a minority You know, if there's a dispute on the commission, I'm not a minority A minority vote, you know can can proceed to you know, I mean, I don't know Like I said, SPAC lays that out explicitly, right? So it lays out exactly what the powers of each individual member of SPAC is and what kind of it is collectively And so I was just concerned that this document does not lay that out as explicitly Worth pulling that statue out. Well, I know that Eileen Looked at SPAC carefully, right? city attorney I haven't had discussions. I lean specific to her research at SPAC. So I can't in terms of our recommendation We might want to see I haven't looked at SPAC that specifically to see What those how it what it does what it dictates in terms of individual members that you're talking about So I can pull it up here real quick. Well, I'm going to say because it's getting late Jim. Yeah, maybe we At first off I would like to talk to the city attorney just to see what the charter is what she thinks that we I'd like I know Eileen pretty well to Eileen. And then so I'll call her back tomorrow and then see and maybe what I'll do is Laura and I can meet and write something up and send it out to everybody to see if it makes sense If it doesn't make sense and we need to have more discussion on it We could talk about it the next meeting and we postpone going to public safety because I'd like to go to public safety with a complete You know, I think that's a good process. Yeah, and I think it does it to your point I think it would give it a little more teeth. It would be like, okay. Now. Here's what our recourse is This was a good discussion. Thank you for everybody hanging in there because It's getting late. I know my brain goes to mush. So let's um, see if we can get through this Updates and comments anybody have any Officer commissions, um, I just need your signatures before you leave. Okay, we'll see you before we leave. Nobody leave without seeing Laura Um consent agenda the minutes from last meeting. Does anybody have any changes In commotion we approve All in favor hi Okay, next meeting um Currently scheduled for september 25th Consider 9 18. Here's the thing. I can't be at either of those dates. I'm doing a two week road trip to the maritimes so I'm I'm out both those days quite flexible except i'm hoping the 25th and 26th is the um Is the national institute of justice and ran corporation trying to set a national strategy for opioids in dc And I think that's a superiority the 25th and 26th is the only So we it's we could do 11th or then we're in october 2nd If you want to work around those And then we go to um, which is two weeks away or As long as it's worn properly and we're transparent We have a little bit of flexibility on the meeting dates. I believe I would I would love to be be here just because we're still going to be doing Should we do this second and then I mean we could do the 30th the second and the 30th so that you know That's still four weeks apart. Is everybody okay with that? Okay. Thank you guys. I appreciate that October 2nd and october 30th, so let me just let me just make sure first that I think seems it's completely part of me and I think great city lab the second one The 30th. Yeah, that's that's fine Is that good laura? Yep, okay, october 2nd And october 30th Okay, thank you everybody um So chief do we need to go into executive session? um No Okay Great. Well, thank you everybody. That was a long meeting, but um, I think we had some good discussion. So thanks. Thanks for everybody's comments Second yep second all in favor All right I'm now driving to northern Canada So do your work takes you to Canada? No, this is family stuff We have a really sick cousin that uh, I don't think he's going to make it much longer But his his goal was to go up to a little late cottage that they grew up on so we're all the family is meeting up there. Yeah I've been combat is it go back or Thank you Thank you guys. Oh, michelle, I need to sign. I can get you with the next one since i'm gonna