 Hi ladies and gentlemen, thanks for being here for this last and concluding session of Tech and Innovation Summit. And our last session is on investing in cleaner technology, the role of VCs and we have eminent VCs with us. I want to start, I want my panelists to share a brief intro about themselves first. Rajeev, we can start with you, Swapna. You want me to share what we do? Should we wait for the room to fill up? This is okay. So, I'm Swapna Gupta, I'm a partner at Havana Capital. At Havana Capital, we invest in climate technologies of today which can solve for tomorrow in some sense. 75% of technologies which need to solve for tomorrow don't exist and our intention is to invest in some and most of them to help us get to the energy climate transition. Yep. My name is Shoaib Ali, I'm from Transition VC. We invest in energy transition as a domain. When I say energy transition, anything to do with any engineering startup or a deep tech startup which helps reduce your carbon footprint. Typically invest in EV, EV in this value chain, industrial decarnation, renewable tech, hydrogen and this value chain, long duration energy storage. These are few of the sectors or sub sectors where we are actively looking to invest. Hi, my name is Ankit Kedia. We founded an early stage fund called Capital A. We are investors largely in the deep tech, climate and fintech ecosystem and idea is to back entrepreneurs and businesses that have some form of revenues and a part to profitability from day one. We need not be profitable from day one but of course have some meaningful business plans as they go forward based in Bangalore. I have done 25 investments so far and we are in our year four of deployment technically. Hi, my name is Rajiv Kolambi. I'm a partner at Cactus Venture Partners. We typically invest in three categories, clean climate tech, health tech and enterprise software. Clean climate tech is close to heart. It is something that is an imperative. The planet needs people to invest, to make the planet a better place to live in and so these technologies that are evolving, I guess all of us on this panel across various stages would like to help support companies that are creating businesses which can help improve our living conditions. We typically come in at post product market fit so companies that have created some technologies which are deployed commercially accepted and they're generating some revenues. We come in, provide the scale capital and help them grow from generally that you have the zero to one which is the hustle when you're setting things up, you're putting things in place, you're trying to achieve your PMF. We come in at the one stage so one to ten is where we typically support companies in their growth endeavors. Priya. Thanks for the intro. So I begin with asking why this particular area sustainability or clean tech, climate tech is appealing investors these days and what is there in for the investors? The question is what is in it for investors? Yeah, why this area is appealing to investors? So it's okay, one is the fact that like I said it's an imperative. There is a certain amount of tailwinds that you get from regulators, from the government, from consumers. People realize that there are lots of things which were earlier considered as public goods which now no longer are really public goods. It's been brought into the domain of the private and gradually people have to start looking at what they can do to leave a legacy for their children and their grandchildren. We grew up in times when we didn't have to contend with so many issues, so this air pollution. We can see what's happening with water in Bangalore today and in other places Chennai has faced this problem, Cape Town in South Africa has faced this problem and we see a lot of cities across the globe which are facing this problem. Technologies to ensure that we utilize our natural resources in the most optimal way and so that's what clean climate tech is all about. Why is this interesting for us? It's because there are lots of people who are now thinking along those lines. There was a time when no one gave it any attention, but today you see that there's this groundswell where people with entrepreneurs and tech entrepreneurs are spending a lot of time focusing on specific aspects, specific areas where they can do things better, whether it's in agriculture, whether it is in automotive, whether it's in construction materials, so there are various spaces, simple things like even municipal solid waste and stuff like that. Everything starts at the individual level, so there is definitely a mindset change which needs to happen at a very large scale to some extent that started and we are at that juncture right now and I think for all of us over here, if I can say that we are in this because we want to support and encourage and hand hold a lot of the companies which are creating these technologies because for them they have the acumen, they have the technology, they need capital and what we are doing is we are bringing in the capital and helping them and supporting them along the way. Ankit, anything to add there? Did you want me to also answer the similar question, same question? I think climate again every year we see have a new blue-eyed boy, some years it's fintech, some years it's crypto, web3, I think the new blue-eyed boy definitely is climate. Having said that and done over 10 investments in the climate space, I think it definitely has to be, there has to be some purpose behind investing in climate by one of the GPs or the partners mixed with the purpose of doing business as usual. Without that climate investing becomes very difficult and it's a bit of a gray area because what Rajiv spoke about that for the greater good versus now the greater good is also an outcome of doing business. Having said that, we've clearly seen that marrying purpose and a business outcome is becoming a lot more, there's a lot more clarity. The initial investments that really went into climate was in the EV and mobility space, a lot of OEMs, a lot of folks who were developing the charging infrastructure, battery swapping, analytics, people who were building powertrains, challenging the likes of legacy OEMs. I mean there's so much new age about this entire climate investing, of course it's slightly skewed towards the entire EV mobility side. We are seeing some offshoots of folks getting into space or financing solutions because banks won't underwrite a solar product immediately. So we are seeing a little bit of diversity kicking in but climate investing is not for everyone. Just building a thesis again is not enough. There is also a learning curve, you have to go through it, learn from it and then sort of pivot just as the startup founders do. That's my two cents on that. Shorib, yours is a focused, built on climate focus. So we are an energy transition fund, so we just do one product climate. So climate involves everything, energy transition, sustainability, recyclability and there are multiple things that come into climate. So from an energy transition perspective if you look at, so the primary reason why we started fund, also if you look at for the first time all forces which are government in the form of policy, capital, a lot of institutional capital, philanthropic capital, they want to, they have allocated significant amounts of capital, billions and billions of dollars have been pledged for climate. Third, now we are also seeing a lot of entrepreneurs coming out and trying to solve these pressing problems. So if you look at all the market forces, I mean all these three forces for the first time have converged. So climate, if you look at climate 1.0, 2.0, I will call this the climate 3.0, they failed because 1.0 and 2.0 didn't have all the participating market forces in them. So first time it has happened that all those forces have come together and are converged and we see it as an opportunity and there are chances of climate 3.0 succeeding is more when come back to 1.0 and 2.0. And the, so everybody knows that there is a global warming, you need to contain the temperature rise and everything. So you have formulated a lot of policies, government push and everything is into that. For us it is also important from an energy security perspective. If you look at numbers, India just imports $150 billion worth of oil and oil equivalents. That's huge. So that's the complete hard work of our IT folks who are putting their hard work and earning though, like they also export close to $110 billion. So just spending completely IT, we are just exporting IT services and just importing oil and oil equivalents. So we see this as an opportunity where if India can build few of those technologies in house and can like maybe hydrogen, electric vehicles, fuel cells, cell manufacturing, if part of it the value chain can be done in India, so we will save a huge amount of those reserves. Also our estimate is that by 2030, the energy transition, when I say energy transition, anything related to buildings, vehicles, industrial industries, renewable tech and also storage part of it. So if you combine this roughly it would come around $150 billion kind of a market. And by 2030, that's our estimate. And all of that, we need at least investments worth of like $120 billion worth of investments needs to be done if you have to achieve the goals what we have set ourselves to reach to 2030 goals. And out of that like $15-20 billion will be very, I mean that purely will go into innovation, especially kind of startups or corporates might want to set up their tech arms. So that's a very exciting space now. I mean, so these are all the tailwinds which are pushing us and we believe this is a hot sector and it would remain hot sector for the at least decade also. I don't have much to add beyond because all the fellow panelists have covered and we all hear each other on a very regular basis. I actually thought maybe if you want to switch gears given the room is very thinly populated, maybe one way of putting the questions not to all of us is maybe we can just take audience questions and answer because the reason I say is all four of us know each other and we talk to each other almost every week. So we know what we are doing. I think it will be better for the audience if there are very specific questions, maybe better to answer them given it's a smaller room. I don't know what do you guys suggest? A few of the questions means the audience, obviously I'll open for the audience also. So within the sector where is the investment being targeted, which area within this sector if you can talk about solar or EVs or you know to me. Yeah okay so from a front perspective we are looking at five sectors or sub sectors what we have clearly known. One is in the EV in the EV value chain. So we typically in an early stage point we won't do OEMs. We want to invest in companies which are doing battery tech, motor controllers, electronics which are core of an EV and also maybe look at few software companies that are doing something there. That's one segment second we are actively looking at industrial decarnation. We believe industrial decarnation is a very huge problem to solve and there we are looking at companies which are looking at like I mean usage of alternate fuels like hydrogen for industrial processes maybe something like wasteland recovery where you can improve the efficiencies and also reduce your carbon footprint. Third again we are also looking at net zero journey for buildings. Within buildings we want to invest in IoT software, HVAC optimization kind of softwares which help you to move buildings such as this which are brown buildings to green buildings. And also we are also very actively looking at long duration energy storage which actually currently my team is like working very hard to look at and if I write startups there because we believe that is going to be a huge market whereas we have seen the boom of EV which has EV has become a reality today. There is no it has reached to an inflection point that EV would stay. So till three four years back it was still in the minds of consumers and the minds of government and the minds of investors also whether EV will become a reality but that question is not there. Similarly we see with the contribution of renewables on the grid we believe there will be a huge demand for storage because you need because renewables like solar and wind are morally intermittent. So we are also actively looking at long duration energy storage companies startups in India. So these are the few areas what we are actively looking at. So we I mean there are within clean climatic there are several sub segments right. We actively look at you know we are agnostic in that sense but a lot of our effort and you know ideas are focused on renewal right. So for example we have invested in a company which is in the lithium-ion battery recycling business. So you know that is one thing. The other thing that we are looking at is we are not looking at investing in the OEM space but more in the value chain. So we look at companies that are we just sort of looking at a company which is which is a manufacturer of powertrains. We look at municipal solid based disposal. We are looking at business models where they are looking at recycling plastic right and so on. So we are agnostic. We look across various you know categories but I think Swapna you all have a reasonably wide you know coverage within the clean climatic space given your focus. So maybe you can share a lot more. Yeah for us we try to look at what contributes to almost 90% of India's emissions and also about 70% of GDP. So the sectors which really are meaningful in that journey to get to climate pathways is supply chain mobility, energy transition, resource management, sustainable consumption, sustainable agriculture and between them if you combine you see every and you further start dissecting them into many sub segments. You see everything from energy transition which could be mini grids, decentralization, climate data platforms. In Agri you start looking at water because water becomes important and sustainable consumption. You start thinking about how to sustainably consume every day across segments. In supply chain mobility, mobility hasn't been disrupted for many many many decades. We still transport everything the same way it used to be. So how can you disrupt some of these things and adopt a path which not only contributes to your mitigation but also think about a country of 1.2 billion. You need to think about adaptation and resilience. So what are the climate pathways? In terms of derivatives of climate, I think all of us as different PC funds have some preference on going on a particular sector and then going into the depth of it for example what Sherb does with the EV sector. For us then we have to break it down to some air water wind and energy and derivatives of that. For us we say that let's pick up packaging as a sector, take a look at sustainable packaging, take a look at what is the value chain on the entire EV ecosystem like Rajiv said that they will not do OEM. Now there's a reason why OEM investments are hard. The reason they are hard is because it's a very capital intensive business and for anyone to say that I'll put up a factory and set up a product including sales, marketing, brand. I mean folks like our legacy brands have built the brand over some 70-80 summers and for any new age startup to do that would require enormous amount of capital. We see examples of that right, an OEM called River. They have raised tons of money right now. That capital, you have to see the quality of capital. That capital came from two or three strategic investors. What does it mean for that particular set of founders is they are aligned to have a strategic interest in the startup they founded and go by the guidelines of the strategic interest in the business. So I think every fund has a different layer of land in terms of how they want to function. For us solar seems to be something which is doing extremely promising steps and a lot of folks in the hardware side of things, a lot of folks on the solar financing side of things are emerging and hopefully do some great work. If you talk about this sector, how do you see it has it already taken off for investors or still lot of scope left? I mean just to keep, it's a long answer but to answer that in a few sentences. Every year we see folks who two years ago were a worse to investing in climate are suddenly warming up to the climate ecosystem and the reason for that is there's a lot of, I mean the capital outside of India or the ecosystem outside of India is way more evolved than what we are and in some way or shape we take inspiration from global markets. The government is supporting the policy. They're coming up with, I mean they came up with a deep tech policy obviously that is still in finishing touches. So I think the government is also doing a lot of things for VC funds to get enough conviction on the climate sector and further investments. Sure, your take on this. I'm saying your take on this, has the sector still has a lot of scope left? Yeah, we just crushed the surface. So if you just, I mean I'm giving some numbers like I mean if you look at EV which was hot sector and still a hot sector, if you look at EV market, there are like India sells roughly 20 million two wheeler market, two wheeler vehicles every year. However we have a penetration of just five percent, two wheeler market penetration, EV penetration is five percent. If you look at cars we sell approximately four to five million cars a year in India. The penetration is just one percent and if you look at three wheelers that's the best sector like there are like we sell roughly half a million three wheelers in India and out of that the penetration is just like 18-20 percent. So one, the innovation happens in phases. I mean if you just break down the EV part of it first the innovation happens at the OEMs level. So that is where you got few incumbents being challenged like Ola Aether came and challenged them in three wheeler you have Altigreen that is the first level of innovation that has happened at the OEM level. Second now the innovation what we are seeing is happening at the systems level. Vanessa systems these are the subsystems which go into an OEM that is where you are seeing very good battery tech companies like exponent, EMO and motor controllers. After that again there will be a shift I mean once you move back back of the value chain that is where you will see a lot of innovation happening in cell manufacturing and then you will go back and then you will see a lot of innovation happening in materials that go into cell anode materials cathode materials. Similarly each of the sector will have its own path. So if you talk about hydrogen we are still not even at the OEM level where we do not have the systems also. So everybody is struggling we have a lot of PLI schemes and government incentives there but everybody is starting to get electrolyzers, fuel cells. So all those subjectors within the energy sector are at different phases and there is a huge opportunity there. We believe it just started and there is a huge opportunity. I mean I think they have touched upon it saying that see this space is very early right there is we have just started there is a lot that can be done in the space. For example when we look at the landscape and we say okay where can we get our deals from we see that there are very few companies that have established product market fit right. We come in post product market fit so whenever we look at any companies they are either very early or they have got the technology they have got a POC but they have not been able to commercialize right. So we need to come into businesses which have got a commercialized product which customers are willing to pay for at price points which make sure that the company makes reasonably decent gross margins because only if you have reasonable gross margins can you go on to become profitable over time. And then we also like to see whether the product is being product service is being used frequently right. So you want to see whether there is renewal rates what are the drop off rates which are attrition you know when we look at all these factors we see that there are very few companies that have reached PMF if you look at it from these parameters right and this significant scope and potential within this so what happens is that a lot of the deals that we look at we look at companies that have been funded by Swapna, Ankit and Shoaib right because they've come in at a very early level we're coming in slightly later to help them grow and when we look at it we see significant opportunities over there they're growing we're waiting from this subset of companies which have achieved their product market fit that is when we can come in and sort of work with them. So there's a lot of potential we've just started I think this is at least from us from a fund perspective I think we can have clean climate tech as one of our focus areas across three funds maybe even four funds going forward because you know the gestation period for these companies tends to be quite long we are at a stage where a lot of the companies will you know really shine maybe post five years later right. So the holding periods for funds are likely to be longer in clean climate tech as compared with any other sectors that one looks at say SaaS or something else right. Swapna when you invest in you know such startup sustainability clean tech climate what factors you know your focus remains you know in those. So I think for us we do only one thing which is climate tech right which means we look at the entire spectrum of founders across various spaces this all for but also I think there is an understanding of having grown and seen the ecosystem today that there will be two types of innovation that we will see in the ecosystem there will be some process innovations which will bring in incremental changes while there will be also product innovation which will basically transform the way industries look today and for each of these you need to have very different lenses because the founder persona changes the capital requirement changes even the timeline that it takes for a company to scale up to certain extent changes right. So as we evaluate these companies our key factor is of course we have a fiduciary responsibility to our LPs that we need to return capital and multi-fold which also means these companies need to grow in a certain time frame that our fund lives are. So when we look at these companies we think about can this company create a certain outcome create a certain difference in next couple of years but given we are so razor sharp focus and we probably in our fund life will do 20 to 25 investments at max right for that we'll probably look at 4000 company and for that in the past we probably between the team have evaluated 5000 company invested in 20 and have some data pattern man matching to create at least six to eight unicorns within the team from our past experiences right. So use that triangulate that to identify companies which can really scale again sectors are exploding the first three was really solar the second was EV now you're seeing plethora of opportunities across other sectors and I think one thing which has become very commonly understood and knowledge is digital got us to here it won't take us beyond what will happen is climate science will become the new computer science which means you will see material new physics you talked about hydrogen you talked about bioscience so we have to look at everything which means you also need to build technical expertise over time which is what we are working on building technical expertise understanding founder understanding how this founder which is process focus will scale versus this product focus founder will scale. So if you talk about the returns you know for the investor how do you see this space sustainability climatic returns returns financial returns. See for us I mean like everyone can speak for themselves but I think the industry as usual typically looks at returning say on an average of 5x of the money that they have raised right private equity tends to do it at about 3 to 4x for venture it should be in the range of 5 to 6x so whenever we are evaluating businesses we have to see whether each of the investments that we do can give us that kind of an outcome right those 5 6x plus it has to be more than that right so within your portfolio there are always certain companies that could become unicorns and give you that return you always do some amount of you know tech risk type you know investments where the outcome could be binary and there are those which are you know as Satna mentioned you know slightly process oriented where you can you know give them the capital to grow and you know that they might not become unicorns but they could grow reasonably well where we are concerned as cactus venture partners we since we come in slightly later not very early we come in at you know series A typically and beyond for us on an average when we look at businesses we say okay can they give us a 10x because if they can give us a 10x and you know we then sort of budget for underperformance so in a worst case scenario can we get a 5x because that's what we have to return to our investors so that's what we look at when we look at each of the businesses anybody wants to add well I mean of course the 5x 10x the asset class we see itself is you know that if you are investing for a period of 10 years in a market like India which is largely a fixed income market and when you say that you know I'm going to be unlocking my principle and profits in this 8 to 10 years 4 to 5x is a given otherwise you've selected the wrong fund to invest in specifically in the case of climate the very nature of investing in any climate startups is signing up for a slightly longer duration than your usual period of staying invested not necessarily on the deployment phase but to stay invested and to continue backing them in subsequent rounds so returns for LPs are doesn't change in terms of the expectation of the IRR or the multiple but I think it changes slightly in terms of the duration and I hope good funds will compensate for that in the upside on the percentage so I will talk about like how we are thinking at a portfolio level how we are thinking about returns from our fund so the good thing about this sector is you have your tailwinds I mean complete industry shifting like I mean from a typical oil and gas or carbon emitting sources to that of clean and green sources so you have your tailwinds at your side from a fund the objective of transition we see is to invest in 3035 startups over the next three years and from that what we have modeled is that if we are able to I mean we invested seed stage and typically if we can get one unicorn and two to three mediocre successes that is where we would be the fund would return deliver 5 to 6x return on a base case and that's the base case what we have modeled it but objective of transition we see is to at least bring out three to four unicorns over the next four or five years so we want to see that happening and so it also depends like on the duration so if you are investing in a company which does materials that go into the value chain you have a long gestation period but if you are investing in an engineering company that's already a systems plane rather than a material spray there you can build that system take it to market and there immediately you can clearly see a path over the next four or five years you can easily become a 1000 crore 1500 crore company so a lot of our portfolio companies when we invest we look at whether they have the ability to become a 1000 crore revenue company over the next four or five years and thankfully so far most of our portfolio companies what we have invested using our proprietary capital into the fund we believe that most of them are on the track to become at least a 1000 crore company so that way I think this sector has the best opportunity to give more number of unicorns so there was already a code by one of the famous investors that this sector will see 100 unicorns over the next over the decade globally so at least I am hopeful that we will see four to five at least more than that unicorns coming from this sector so definitely this is an outlier driven business one unicorn in your portfolio gives all the returns so now you want to say something I already covered it okay any questions from the audience hi thank you my name is Tia I'm from Australia I'm doing a PhD on investment in the link to impact to comparing Australia and India I'm very familiar with the climate tech in Australia which is now the hottest trend I have a number of questions the first question is is there aside from the fact that you are investing in climate is there a way that you structure the deals differently because you require patient capital is there something different aside from the actual investment in climate that you do that differentiates you from a different from regular vcs that would be my first question I can take that I think you're bang on right climate taking away different asset class people don't understand it and it's also patient because there are product innovations which will take a significant amount of time I think there are two ways to solve for it is when you are underwriting the risk you try and figure out ways to mitigate the biggest risk in the segment in my mind is next round of capital because these companies need tremendous amount of capital you need to ensure that that shows up on the cap table which is why for us I can at least and I I think that's one way to think about it as at Awana we think about an ecosystem approach that while we are putting in the first check how do we ensure that there is later stage funding available which is where you're talking to later stage funds all the time telling them how the companies are scaling also keep the money for value of deaths for every dollar that we underwrite we actually keep two and a half dollar aside to ensure that the company has the money when it goes to that value of death so I think again very important point that this will be very different trajectories and once it scales it scales very well but you need to ensure you have time for that value of death if I may add to that I think your question was also is this is the way we invest in climate a little different from what we do in other sectors right at least for us there is no difference in the way we look at investing in climate versus the others yes there is a certain you know social cost benefit analysis that comes into it in the sense that okay if we are doing something what is the climatic impact that the business that we are funding or the technology that we are backing what is the impact that it is having at a you know at a ESG level so this in the ESG it's more the environment side there are the social and you know governance aspects also which come into the picture but you know the only difference is we now need to with other businesses we look at it purely from an economical perspective but when we are investing in climate and clean tech we then have to see what kind of impact we are making and we have to you know objectively calculate that right so it's not just the capital that goes into helping the business grow it's about the change or the impact that the business is having on the environment and in a society in large you have any other question I have many questions I'm sorry I'll ask one if I can ask maybe one more seeing that it's a very nascent industry both from a VC perspective as well from a technology perspective what is your biggest challenge in terms of the like where where is your biggest challenge in terms of the pipeline is it in sourcing new investment opportunities is it in raising capital is it being able to figure out the impact like what what are your biggest challenges so two challenges specifically so one always we are always thinking like whether we are timing in right so we always face a challenge like are we as a venture capital fund very early in this segment or is it the right time to invest because if you're early you invest and no action happens then the startup dies and at the same time we are losing that amount of capital so when since there is no precedence in this energy transition sector so let's let's take an example so if I was an I would have been an EV investor like seven eight years back and I would have invested in few startups most of them I would have lost all my money so similarly if you if you have to give me an example of like let's say hydrogen value chain so it's always in the mind like am I am I too early that's that's the question I have to answer even even when it comes to long duration energy storage where we are bullish and internally we have a feeling that are we are we very early or is that is that the question we are trying to find out and the second challenge is been in the market we find there are few niches unfortunately especially from the Indian scenario none of the entrepreneurs are working in for example if you look at again again bringing back long duration energy storage none of the entrepreneurs are working working on flow batteries or hydrogen value chain or or in thermal batteries which are essentially required because I can clearly see that renewable contribution which is solar and wind contribution to the grid is increasing but no one is working on the storage so if you don't put up storage on the grid and if you don't have right technologies which are supporting the storage the grid will collapse at some point and that then we run into a panic mode and that can completely destabilize my solar and wind also those sectors also will get affected so a challenge is this that's a second challenge so we want more and more engineers especially to think about this kind of problems anticipated and want more and more entrepreneurs to work on those solutions so these are the two like I mean challenges what we anticipate as a climate tech or energy fund where we don't have any presidents there even other if I may add to that I think challenges exist across various aspects right one is the technology front we we need to see a lot more happening on that front to see a technology applications from an application perspective right the second thing is fundraising the ecosystem is not robust enough for that right we're doing a lot at the early stage but for us to consider exits at the next level when we get to a series C or a series D we don't see anyone who's focused on clean climate tech or is looking at it actively saying I am willing to you know put in larger amounts of capital which means that they will purchase the stakes out of us at a later stage so that's it'll take some time before the you know venture ecosystem becomes robust enough for people to come in at that stage the most important thing that I see in this sector is getting a technology and commercializing it that is I think in my mind the biggest challenge because for every sector there is some problem or the other EV today we look at it it subsidized right it's the government has to subsidize the you know the OEMs for selling two wheelers and three wheelers the question is without the subsidy will a customer be willing to pay the price for the product you know at the cost it you know and whatever it costs it with a reasonable margin for a profit margin for the manufacturer you look at look at water today there are companies I'm aware of which have done things in the water technology space but water is considered to be a public good even the rich do not want to pay for water right they'll pay for everything else for food food is a necessity people will be willing to pay for food but water is a necessity people will not pay for water so you know a mindset change is required which will take a lot that is one of the biggest challenges in this space let's look at municipal solid waste within municipal solid waste it's been happening for 20 years it's not now 20 years until today you do not have add source segregation of wet and dry waste maybe a lot of the you know residential complexes have taken it upon themselves to do it but outside of the residential complexes when you look at you know individual standalone houses nobody does that right so it's a question of how mindsets will change where people will start saying look I need to take the responsibility to do certain things at my level and two I also need to pay for certain things because what is happening is that you know public goods are now getting it's human nature whenever something is free you want to use more of it you will not use it responsibly and that is the biggest challenge that I think a lot of people in the clean climate tech space are trying to sort of try and resolve or find solutions for to make sure that you know at a you know global level you know humankind can you know ensure that we are not worsening our situation any further than where it is today