 What do we know about Jesus historically and what's our basis for believing theological claims about Jesus? Yeah, Dale, if you want to start with historical claims, what's the picture of Jesus that would be generally historically accepted? Believers are not believers. Yeah, so the question, who is Jesus is a critical question. If we can't figure out who Jesus is, we're in trouble, but we have a biblical base for who Jesus is. And so the question is, is there anything else outside of the biblical account that gives credibility to him being an actual person? Most atheists will agree that there's plenty of evidence for a historical Jesus. Very few people will say there's never been a man named Jesus. So when we have people like Suetonius and Josephus and Thalus and Pliny and Trajan and all of those who verify, even though they were not interested in Christianity, but they were verifying that there was a man named Jesus, these all being within the first 150 years of the AD, there's some credibility established by that. Some of them do not say a lot about him, but they make reference to him and make reference to his existence, make reference to him as having followers, him as having a teaching ministry that was highly valued, appreciated, having done miracles or proclaimed miracles, and they will verify that. When we look at the crucifixion of Jesus, many scholars, I believe some have given a number, and I'm going to give just 12 or more who have stated that he was a crucified being under Pilate, probably many more. I've heard numbers of up to 40, but again, I've not gone past the 12 or so that have verified that Jesus was crucified under Pilate, and that after his burial, there was a tomb that was empty. After the supposed resurrection that the Bible talks about, there is evidence that people turned toward this man in a new wave. We know why. We know the power of his resurrection and what it said to us. It said that Jesus was really who he claimed to be. It's not really what a person says that matters as much as what a person does or what happens. He said he was going to die, he said that he'd be resurrected, and it actually happened. There's no historical documents that I'm aware of that would state that he was lying about the tomb being empty, or lying about the resurrection. Even though there were deniers, there are many people that followed that wave, even unbelievers. We have James and we have Paul who didn't necessarily see Jesus face to face, but became followers as did many other Jewish people because resurrection proved that he was who he said he was. As we went through history, up through 70 A.D., we had the persecution of that group of people that was profound. There were people that were persecuting and the church was dispersed, as the Bible says, but as history says, the church was dispersed because of that persecution about who the man Jesus was. Key question, who was Jesus? I believe we have historical documentation outside the Bible that verifies he was a man, he was an amazing man, he was a miracle worker, he was one that was crucified, and the tomb was empty three days later. With eyewitnesses to come back and say that he had risen and a movement that gave credence to that. So, it would be fair to summarize that as a mostly acknowledged historical perspective. Christian or otherwise, okay, there's a man named Jesus, he's teaching, he's seen as a miracle worker, there's some movement, he's killed, and very shortly after that, there's a movement which involves the claim that he was raised from the dead, and that grows into Christianity. And then where Christians and others really come to the point of disagreement there is whether or not you accept the resurrection. Moving from there, did the resurrection happen? I guess that's where we move beyond the history that almost everyone accepts. So, when we talk about who Jesus was, we recognize that his life is to be patterned after, that we are to be following his example. And so, if we don't believe the deity of Jesus, then the question is, is he worthy to be followed? We know the ultimate is the resurrection and the power over death and the grave and the power to live an abundant life, but we also know that there has to be an understanding that he was deity in his years here as a human. So, another way to think about maybe Jesus and history, how does Jesus' life relate to Jewish prophecies? Yeah, well, it's clear that from Genesis 3.15 on, there is reference to a Savior. Genesis 3.15 is speaking about there going to be something, someone that is going to be born to a virgin or to a woman that is going to put down the power of Satan. And we believe that the death and the resurrection of Jesus did that. We understand that. But throughout the Old Testament, we see the prophecy that there's coming a day when the Messiah is going to come and set us free from our sin. I love Hebrews. I go back to Hebrews chapter 9, where it speaks about Jesus' death dealing with the sin of us and also those who are under the Old Covenant. It's a concept that isn't given often in Scripture that I've picked up, but in Hebrews chapter 9, verse 15 specifically, it's pointing that the cross has gone not only forward to all the future generations, to the present, to the future generations, but has also gone back and has brought salvation to those whose sins have been covered in the Old Testament. Meaning that his blood being shed was essential for the whole sin problem. When we grab that concept, it gives us the hope of the Old Testament saints coming along with us. Now, we know they did what they were to do by offering animal sacrifices. They did that in obedience. But we also know that Jesus' blood went back and took their sin away instead of just covering it. And again, that was because of their faith in the Messiah. Their understanding of the prophecies in the Old Testament that said there is coming a Messiah. There is going to be a New Covenant. There's going to be a covenant that's going to be in your heart. So we see in Deuteronomy where the prophet is prophesied about. A prophet is coming. We see in the book of Psalm prophecies about Jesus. We see in Isaiah, many prophecies about Jesus. Isaiah 53 being a very special one, which the Jewish community, by the way, has a hard time reckoning with Isaiah 53. Nobody in their lineage has been identified as being the one that Isaiah 53 is talking about. But we know that it points to Christ. So we go to the New Testament and we come back and we see that reference, that connection. And Isaiah 53 talks about the servant of the Lord who is crushed, who's despised and broken. The chastisement of our peace was on him, so on. So we see the prophecy of a Messiah from Genesis. We see Deuteronomy specifically saying about a prophet coming. We see Jeremiah specifically saying about a New Covenant written on our heart. We see Isaiah giving the way he's going to be a suffering servant for us. We see Daniel, that the Messiah is supposed to come before Jerusalem is destroyed, gives a time frame. But the Jewish nation still finds it difficult to see the Messiah for who he was. How does the prophecy become clear to us? Well, as the New Testament writers have made reference many, many times. As Jesus made reference many, many times, he pointed out that he is the Messiah based on what was given in the Old Testament Scripture. So are they strong enough to give a Jewish person a point that Jesus is the one? We know that at the time of Jesus' birth, that Simeon was waiting for the consolation of Israel. And the devout Jew was praying every day that this would be the day that that consolation would take place. We know that Anna there in the temple at his Jesus' circumcision, Anna was there giving people the message, this is the Messiah, to those who were seeking it says in Luke. There it refers that those who were seeking she spoke and said, this is the Messiah, this is the one who you've been waiting for. You pulled this picture of all that expectation and prophecy and even the sacrifices in the Old Testament, in the Jewish writings coming together in Christ. I don't know, one of the objections that we brought and one that I rest a little bit with how to think about is, is that an argument for here? This proves who Jesus is. It seems like the objection could be, well, you know, you've created the whole New Testament and you've pulled these things together and made them fit. And maybe if you go back and read the Old Testament, they don't seem as clear, especially when you get things like Matthew quotes, Matthew chapter two quotes from Hosea and says, you know, out of Egypt, I have called my son and refers it to Jesus being in Egypt after he fled from Herod. But it seems like if I'm reading Hosea, I'm just going to want to say, well, yeah, that refers to the Exodus and not to Jesus. So I guess, yeah, how do we look at prophecies? Or maybe there's others where we look at it and say this is clearly pointing to Jesus. So how many prophecies do we need to give us a subtleness that Jesus is who he said he was? Aside from the resurrection, how many prophecies do we need? You know, if you would get eight prophecies of Jesus that actually were happened, the probability of that is significant. Josh Meadown, his book Evidence Demands a Verdict, gives the probability of that. And he says the probability is of putting silver dollars across the state of Texas, two feet deep, marking one of them with an X, stirring the whole pile, reaching in there the first time grabbing the one with the X. And that is the probability of one person fulfilling eight prophecies. But we're saying with New Testament referencing back, there's over 300 prophecies that speak to who the Messiah is supposed to be. I guess for me, I'm looking at things like types and shadows and wondering, as I get older, how that's becoming more clear to me, and not perfectly, but becoming more clear that picture of how Christ was represented there at the Tabernacle, for example. Can I see some of these prophecies in a more clear way? Or even in a double prophecy? You're speaking the one there in Matthew with Hosea. It's hard to decide which is a double prophecy. But even the Jewish community will give reference to there being prophecy of a Messiah coming and a Messiah that's ultimately going to take charge of and end the earth. There are double prophecies in Isaiah. We can take certain chapters speaking about his first coming and certain chapters speaking about his second coming. I'm thankful for the Word of God and the depth of it to the intricacy of it, but I'm also thankful that as we search, God continues to shed light. And I guess, I don't need all 300, I hope, for my faith to be sound. Let's switch to the most exciting question then, for thinking about historical Jesus, but we're thinking about what Jesus said, Jesus' divine, Jesus was crucified and made alive again. What are the implications? We can spend all day on that. Well, you've asked a great question, because if we don't understand this part, our life is not abundant. And it's not filled with the power that we should be having. Because if we can picture Jesus sitting at the right hand of God, as Hebrews tells us, and other places prophesied that that's what he would do. He would go to heaven, he would sit at the right hand of God, and that he would have power and given preeminence, and he would be able to reach down and impact you and me today. We go through the scriptures and it speaks about him being our helper. It speaks about him being our mediator. It speaks of him being our advocate. Those are just terms that are used. Intercessor, all those words give to me that awareness that I'm being helped, being drawn into the kingdom of God. Today, there's a prayer that he's praying for me. John 17 gives that illusion, the idea that we are being prayed for by Jesus, and that he is there to intercede for us, and he is bringing us into his likeness as a child, as a joint heir with him. If we don't have that perspective, if we are just looking at Jesus and what he did at the cross to forgive me of my sin, then I'm at one level. But if I realize that he's made us more than conquerors, and he's moved us to another level of abundant life, that's when Christianity, that's when our faith is more than a religion, it is a relationship. Yeah, that's a beautiful picture. I like the way you frame that. We can talk about forgiveness through his blood, but that's a starting point. The resurrection means Jesus is alive. He's ruling and looking out for us, shaping us. I mean, all those things. Do we believe that he's our sustainer, or do we believe that he's done his work? This is the unfinished work of Christ sitting at the right hand. He's finished the plan of salvation. His blood is adequate for all time if we get under the blood, but his work is continuing. It's ongoing. It's an unfinished work. On the behalf of whosoever will, that would come. Because it's his life that's shared in closing, because we've been talking about both that kind of life and about historical evidence. You talk sometimes about the Christian as a objective witness to Christ and a subjective witness for Christ. Could you maybe unpack those two terms, why they're both important? So a witness is one that can give an account of. An objective witness is giving an account of who Jesus is as we see it, as we understand it. It's important that we clarify to people who Jesus is and what his work is yet today. That is inviting to the person that is deep in sin and needs a new start. But when we talk about a subjective witness, we're talking about a person who has a testimony of life change, and he's willing to share how their life has been impacted by this Jesus that we're talking about. We can talk about other people all day, but if we don't have something within that we can share with someone, the weight isn't the same. But when we can say, this is who I was and this is who I became, somebody can look at that and take courage that they could become like us. Because they don't have Jesus to look at today in person, but they do have people whose lives have been transformed. They don't understand how that's all happened. And so they're coming to us, usually asking the Christian, why do you believe that our life can be changed? How can it be changed? And when we can give subjective witness, there's a powerfulness of that personal testimony. So I think we need both of those. We need the ability to share why we believe Jesus is a valid savior and Lord in our life. But we also need to give that testimony that this isn't just a feeling. This is really what he has done to make the change in my life. I'm afraid there's too many Christians that that hasn't come out of yet. Thank you for joining us for this episode. And thanks to our donors and partners for making this possible. To learn more about this ministry, view our About Us video linked below. You can also subscribe to our supporters update at anabaptistperspectives.org.