 Awesome. This is the OGM Thursday check-in call for Thursday, December 9th, 2021. We're coming to the end of 2021, which seems very strange. Yeah. Isn't it? Yeah, I can't believe it. I mean, this has just been flying by. An odd thing. I did an interview with Jesse Engel in Venice, California a couple of days ago, and he was in like a museum type space that had been curated by a fellow for 35 years. And it was really like, it was really cool. It's just a beautiful space. We should all live in museums. We just put an image behind us. That's kind of that's kind of what made me would make me think about it exactly. Hey, Doug. Hey, Pete. Nice to see everybody. So why don't we, well, first, a couple check-ins on weaving the world and so forth. And I have, there's a couple of things I haven't quite figured out yet. Yesterday we spent a bunch of time because April is about to travel slightly internationally. She has a speaking engagement in the Bahamas, believe it or not, in person. And we're being cautious, et cetera, et cetera, but she needs a COVID negative test confirmation in apparently a QR code. So she went and took a COVID test at Kaiser past, got an email that says, click here to get your QR code. That link has bonked for the last three days. We have a tech support issue in Kaiser says, oops, our website is broken there. We don't know what's wrong. So no, like, no QR code and nobody can nobody can like paint the dots in by hand to figure out like to replace that QR code. And the problem is not so much showing up at the airport and flashing something. The problem is she needs to get a visa. She needs to email the confirmation to the Bahamas to get the visa. So then there's another program through email.com, where you can get them to ship you a box of test kits and the binax test kits, there's two versions. There's the home test kit, which we bought a couple months ago and used once, which is fine, but doesn't work for travel and then there's another kind that they say like don't open it. You call in you talk to a representative on video, they watch you open it this sort of this kind of chain of custody ish kind of thing for it. And then that result is actually valid and can be used for travel. And at least United American a couple airlines accepted. Okay, good. Except they haven't actually shipped the box and they can't even tell us where the box is and they appear their back office appears to be a torrid mess. So that's plan B. And anyway, long story short, we have like plan E right now. And April doesn't actually fly until Saturday but today she's doing a day trip and isn't really available so it's kind of messy. So that aside, that's kind of a reason why I haven't picked dates yet for composting calls but weaving the world just by way of check in history. Weaving the world is, we basically have, by the end of this week we'll have four episodes raw materials in hand. And Pete and I principally and anybody else would like to help will be turning these into episodes of a podcast and then I'm going to book date, basically times for what we're thinking of as composting calls to go back and watch the same watch the calls and go back into the topics of those calls and weave them together and invite other mappers and other kinds of things. So the first four episodes are. I think the first one will be my interview with Jesse angle that I just did so we're going to produce that and put it up in raw form. They have a soft launch on the 15th of December so I'll do that in the next day or so. We have two episodes of these calls that to the call we did on the metaverse and then the call we did on the better verse last Thursday, we're really terrific and I don't think we'll take the full calls that we're going to figure out a chunk of those calls and make those episodes of Weaving the World. And that means that I'll put an intro and outro around them to say this is what what's going on etc. We have pages on the weaving the world.org website, there'll be a page for each episode all that kind of thing. And then this afternoon I'm interviewing Daryl Davis, who's one of my heroes, who is a black jazz musician who has the garage full of KKK robes. I just kind of friended him on LinkedIn he was very nice and he just traveled back from Berlin. And so the time that worked for him was 5pm today so I'm going to talk with him on the call and then the plan is for future interviews like that not to be just me but to be an invite into the GM community for whoever wants to show up but this one just to keep things as simple as possible and to do the simplest thing that could possibly work. We're going to we're going to keep it pretty simple at that at that rate, but but that'll mean there'll be four really nice pieces of content that we can then manually step through what it is we think we're doing to post process these calls. Right. And so, so I do some pre processing anyway because I've got Darryl Davis has been in my brain for years. I've watched a couple of his TED talks I read the article by Nick Kristoff you know I'm reasonably familiar with his work and approach. I watched documentary about him and his work. I do some pre work, then during the call there's some work but then after the call what do we do about what God said how do we deepen, how do we complexify to use Adam grants language. And that was part of what I think Rob was saying on the OGM list this morning is like hey, this isn't so simple there's sort of complexity here and I think that that exploring that complexity together in visual and other kinds of forms is really important because we have the work that we're doing for creating shared context or shared meaning. That was a lot of stuff so let me hit pause and see if anybody has any comments or thoughts or questions on on what I just said, that was perfectly clear. Awesome. And so if you if you're interested, there's a channel for weaving the world operations as a channel and matter most if you want to tune into what we're doing and what's up and participate. There's a channel for all sorts of different places with that and and it feels really exciting. I'm like, you know, what we to take a lot of what we do and deepen it, and then make it more public and more useful and more visible in different ways. So that's our chicken format. And how about Klaus Eric Wendy for starters. Again, yeah, it has been busy. I've been gone for a while because it just has been really busy but there's no, no real way to, to regulate your time so we have, you know, we've had lots of discussions about the innovations poker. And finally, we got, I mean, I was able to put my hands on the project that sort of proof is proof of concept for the idea of innovations poker. And so this group that are joined planetary care. They had developed a relationship with with what we call a local champion, which is the chief operating officer of a group of 30 farmers a co op of 30 farmers, which is shepherd screen, fairly successful guys but they were looking to reinvent themselves. And so when we were able to to work with someone local. We were able to set up meetings with Washington State University with extensions but then also with the entire community of food hub and and co op and and so on. And we came back with a very enthusiastic invitation to to keep moving. And that's what we're doing so right now the, our local guy is working to sign up farmers. And these are big guys I mean the average size from this 3,300 acres. And when he said signing up a group of farmers we know already of five who want to set up demonstration farm somewhere between 50 and 150 acres each and just test something completely new perennial cranes, you know, integrated livestock aqua forestry civil pasture, just from quantum up we reinvent you know they're farming operation. And so we developed, we had to underfly you know develop on who are we and what are we doing. And so we positioned ourselves as strategic consultants to to first of all, guide the development of a master plan for, for the entire code. And then, and then find, and then activate the entire community and the police is the largest crane coin, the region in North America, millions of acres of land. Our cool pairs 150,000 acres between them. 90% of their, of their products are getting exported. So it did. So this is a huge potential to scale to make impact at scale. But we also know we're also really interested in working with the NGO codes now in the community so with the food hub is the farmers market and all of that. So we developed, you know, I posted a mind map. Yes, I posted in in a moment, but team balance joined our team. And you know, it's like a master systems designer. He's using cool. It's a different program but kumo really is a mind mapping tool. Doesn't have hard applications it's not something you can send out for people to know what you're doing but it helps you to structure the relationships you're looking to connect and this is really sort of the core thing is to help people find other when you start getting into into this space. You find there's a lot of people who want to connect a farmer wants to connect you know with a guy who knows about micro nutrients and the guy with micro nutrients wants to find a farmer was willing to test and this is where basically becoming this approach function and where we are connecting functions and people together. So it's exciting. And, and at the same time super super the intimidating because I mean we don't have any money right as we we have to figure that there's no revenue model that I can identify at this point so we have to So we'll end up needing help on a lot of on a lot of levels you know things that I haven't done before because I'm a corporate guy you know I've set up companies I've done any of that stuff but so anyway huge potential and and Jerry you know you have been superbly helpful to get us to the place where we're in right now because it has been a journey for several years now. Thank you, thank you. Before I go to Gill I just have a couple questions and classes. It's exciting to watch this all form up. One specific question which is I think in the conversations online I saw that sort of livestock slaughter facilities would be really useful like we're one of the top priorities, and I remember from I might have been on the worst dilemma or somewhere else. One of the really interesting farms that was doing sort of livestock rotation and grass growing and all of that said we slaughter our own chickens because we can. We can't slaughter our own cattle because of laws because whatever whatever and it pointed directly towards sort of livestock facilities, but then I thought there seemed to be institutional governmental regulatory blockages to do that to just go set something up. And I'm wondering, you know, if, if the freelancers Union in New York unifies freelancers to create a group of people for collective bargains on insurance shopping, for example health insurance. There's some interesting organizational structure and I might be overthinking this that could allow slaughtering facilities to actually exist as shared fractional ownership as some other thing that passes the sniff test for current regs, but still allows this to then be like really really accessible because it might that's the kind of thing that feels a little bit like a game changer in that setting. There's a massive opportunity because right now small hold the farmers can't get the animals into the market because they can't get into facilities that are USDA approved and that is the requirement to get into the wholesale market. And, and this market has been so corrupted that basically for companies that dominate the entire market and basically school the farmers, you know, in the process and prevent smaller farmers from competing it's an important cash flow opportunity for a small farmer. You have to get your chickens and your pigs and so on, and you can feed those animals basically for free, you know with waste products that are happening on the farm. So I had a conversation with the leader of the Washington State University extensions and the police region already in that there are ways to work around these limitations by using a truck mounted slaughter facilities. So if you go right into the field and process the animal right in the field that means you don't need to develop a facility with all the complications and zoning regulations and so on. And then you bring the animal to a central processing facility where it gets cut and process now into the freezer and so on. And that and it allows the development of a modular capacity so you get as many trucks as you need because these farmers are going to ramp up with the animals. And you can't build a facility that is big enough to, to, to hold future capacity as you may need, because then then your numbers get all tangled up. They already talked with some investors because that could be a national thing right I mean we could build the capacity for this kind of modular design and just factory build these things and ship them out. So there are absolutely these. Another opportunity is, which is often overlooked is micronutrients. And that is really coming on strong so the industry wants to coat seeds with micronutrients. And the question is why would you do that just let the farmer use his own seeds, and then pull your own micronutrients with waste products basically now that you have on the farm. And that could totally replace synthetic nitrogen fertilizer and would revolutionize again I mean those two things would be total game changers. And so we are going to develop a prototype in the produce for those two things and then hopefully set that up for application. And also I think Kevin's been working a lot with non forest timber products or sorry non timber forest products. So things like mushrooms and medications and other sorts of things that if you're going if you're heading toward agroforestry and all that, there's probably a lot of interesting leverage there. Definitely, definitely. So, so one worker on one of the most simple ways you know to reduce beef consumption is to plant hamburgers with mushrooms. It tastes fantastic. It's protein rich nutrient rich and so on. So it's from a nutritional perspective and from an environmental perspective. It's just an easy thing to do. So yeah we already have one one farmer interested in it setting up mushroom production here. You're muted. Kevin, Kevin, go ahead. Yeah, we're working. We've got a 600 acre camp near us and we're working on the whole initiative called outdoors for all. So it's related to our community equity fund that's working on finding outdoors is like our biggest industry and it ranges from tourism to healing. And black folks don't have businesses in it. And so we've got this streets to peaks program as one example and a kid from Charlotte from the hood came to the camp and realized I want to be like a farmer like a mushroom farmer and so we're starting to incubate some businesses there and non timber forest products are things that will let you do. You can't do regenerative forestry without non timber forest price because there's no reason the people shouldn't chop down the trees. The main reason is a big example but you know by medicinal to grow in the understory, you know, Arnica and black cohosh grows a lot around here and it's a great thing for women's menopause and actually we're, we're able to work with a lab here at a forestry lab. And that is able to spawn things that are only wild harvested. And so wild harvest is really decimating. You know, ginseng especially but the environment, while people do that and you know, folks in single wide, going out hunting, hunting the same, you know, it's a redneck kind of thing that then they sell it up into she she things in Brooklyn it's really kind of a weird supply chain. But we're finding we can, you know, we help people pay the taxes on their land and fight off the tourism gentrifiers. And so we were going to need to be patient there and we're raising some money around and doing an event called out there and investing in outdoors for all. Outdoors for all you can also think of it as you know black folks in the woods y'all here we come. One of the things with displacement is that people of color weren't allowed to think that they could be part of the outdoors it was a place they didn't go and they were told they didn't go and it's also we know here where they got moved a whole community got moved for the built more of the silos we're building this repair tax, but outdoors for all is is a pretty interesting thing and biomedicinals, you know, mushrooms are the easiest thing to grow, but we're doing all these other kinds of things. We're oddly the most biodiverse place we fight with you get in on, which is the most but it's amazing how how biodiverse this place is so biomedicinals tied into, you know, crystals and massage and shit like that and hiking. It's kind of our industry here. And, you know, it's kind of an all white place. So we're working on that. And together it makes an economy so that's great. Well, but you've been really patient please jump in. Yes, if I can remember, class, first of all, huge congratulations. I'm really, really excited about we've been up to in your perseverance on it and starting to take fruit couple of questions and the the mobile slaughterhouse thing sounds really important because it's very difficult to have a truly regenerative agriculture without animals in the loop. And so making that possible is really important. You sort of answered one of my questions when you said there is no revenue model. So I'm curious about what your relationship with your business relationship is with the farmers. So we have a meeting, we have, we started a standing Monday meeting. And so in this coming Monday we will find out how many farmers have signed up and the, the, our contact from Shepherd's crane is reaching out to other farmers. And I told them the bigger the more the better, the more the bigger we can make this the easier it would be to attract resources. And then we have we are already saying we are positioning ourselves as your consultants right so we'll represent you. And then the, you know, I mean, right now they have indicated they may be willing to chip in some donations basically you know so we use Jordan's 501 C3 generate some money. We need, we need rich money, but we need to have like three, four months or so covered because I need to hire people I need to hire a project manager. We need to hire a relations person who schedules meetings, and so on and so there's like three or four positions we need to bring on and we have to pay these people. We need to have a grant writer, for example, right I mean, this is not just going to happen. So that's, so that's sort of where we are so we need to find some breathing space to give us time to think. And, and, and develop and develop the capacity to apply for crayons and for and set up a credible relationship with investors, because the, and what what what you see everywhere is the understanding of what is an innovation is just not there. I mean the value that you're providing has no material value, right. So when you when you see on the other side, it has material value just doesn't have a form for capturing and that value the value is huge. Let's be clear. So I want to I want to offer a provocation that I'm hesitant to do this because I don't know that all the details on the ground but I think a business a business relationship with farmers. At some point seems really key. And the two best ways I've seen that happen one is that the, the grain company provides it as a built in service, which may be a possibility in the future but the other that's most interesting to me, I met a years ago I met a farm advisor working out of the Fresno area named Ibrahim Michael. And he had a very different approach than most of the farm advisors, most of them charge the per acre fee. The next dollar per acre per season, and they were incentivized in their business model to prescribe agricultural chemicals which they would make money selling as you know it was a nasty thing. Ibrahim said, offered the same kind of service nonchemical and said to the farmers you pay me at the end of the season what you think I was worth courageous, you know, and what he found was that he averaged about double the per acreage fee than what the chemical salesman farm advisors would charge. Now, you may not be ready for that. But think about that. I mean you think about what's the relationship where the value gets realized and recognized and transacted in some kind of fair to all way. I'm just concerned if you try to build this on a philanthropic model. I don't think it's going to have roots, and I'm concerned whether it would scale and so you know finding a way to, and it may take a while you may have to go you may have to step into it for the farmers to recognize the value but you also may just actually talk about that with them at the start because these these folks are business people of some of the most rigorous and smartest kind in the world and say look here's the deal we're going to bring you stuff. It's going to be valuable you may not know that it is now I may not believe that it is now what can we construct. It will be fair to you given the risk that you're that you're taking on us and fair to us given the effort we're putting in with you and I just encourage you to look into that direction. Yeah, I'm happy to talk with you more if you want. The, the other thing is, I may have mentioned to you before again, got named at cooling back on the East Coast who's doing a similar kind of play in a very different agricultural ecosystem. As well as what's his name. H U L I N G Jerry, as well as Walter Yenny who we've talked about before Jay hne who's doing similar work in Australia. Who's been able to get some significant support for his work and so if you're not connected with those guys you might want to hook up with them and compare notes to see where can go. I'll send you a note girl maybe you can. Happy to do that. I appreciate that. Yeah. I mean, this is not my skill set right I mean I'm a strategist. I don't figure out stuff and one step one step ahead of where we're going but there are a lot of moving parts here that haven't done before. Well you've you've you've done pretty well for not being your skill set. You're moving a lot of parts, and we want parts and actually there's parts of your skill set that are very relevant they may just not look like it but I think there are. Anyhow, big, big congratulations and thank you for what you're doing. Thank you. Yeah class, Wendy. Yeah class so exciting to hear what's going on for you. And it just made me think and I think there's some other people here who may know more than I do, but I keep. If you're looking for funding and you're looking to match up and looking for grants and things I know open futures coalition is doing a lot to try to match projects and funding. And that is, I've just started connecting with them and that's not the, I'm connecting with them on an area of wisdom or depositories and things so I haven't learned a lot about what they're curating. But they just launched a platform that's in its you know alpha alpha alpha so it would be about talking to the Jamaican Jamaica Stevens who's who's facilitating that that group and seeing if maybe there's a connection there for you. We just had a meeting with them this week, this Mary and Jamaica. Yeah. Yeah, so so we are we are we are on I mean, there's the American Sustainable Business Network there's open impact I mean there's a number of groups that are active in this in this field, but they're all they're all in various stages of piloting. I'm just thinking in terms of you getting support from a group of people who are already making the efforts to identify sources of funding right might might facilitate so I'm glad you connected with them. That's great. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you all. Let's go Eric Wendy Stewart. Hi everybody. So first, there's some comments for Klaus. So I live in Pennsylvania and near Lancaster. There's a, I saw a model of an Amish farm, and I'm just wondering, like, the looking at Amish, if there is something there about how they work their farm or live with without electricity and then also Temple Grandin has done a lot of research on humane slaughterhouses. So just passing that on in case you haven't looked at any of this. Yeah, no thank you. Can I just take this green for a second here. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, all yours go ahead. So, so here is this Google map that we developed. And, and just just so far ourselves, you know, to, to, to figure this but we have we have a meeting is Google X on Friday tomorrow actually. And so we'll be using this to explain this. So here's planetary care. And so we are developing this, this, this relationship here with Shepherd's crane, right. So here's Shepherd's crane. And they are setting up demonstration farms. And we need all these resources for the demonstration forms Shepherd's crane additional resources because bio nutrients for example stored as capacity goes beyond the demonstration form those are capacities that would have to be developed directly with with the co-op they have to make a call if that's you know what they want to do. So then, then here we're developing contacts with research institutions and government. So we are in the process of developing names and we already have a bunch of names here. And one then is commercial entities. So here we give an opportunity for companies that are in this regenerative space now and come in with innovative products that are that are game changers in the industry. And they're connecting them, you know, through planetary care we are connecting them with Shepherd's crane way and how that makes sense. So then what you're talking about now this is community development. And so in community development, we already have no days of a member owned co-op that's really incredible in the Palouse. Now there's a local food hub, local currencies on the table catering organizations like we already talked with the catering director from Washington State University they're serving 10,000 meals a day. And so, and we talked as the chef so can you adapt your menus to take local sourcing and so on. Farmers market there's big opportunities for the farmers market to get the two for one, a double your food park program going and hold that out into the community. So this year is totally in non-profit work. The best we can hope for here is to get a grant. But this is sort of my passion. I mean here because this is the base of pyramid economy, which is, you know, the most needy part, and the most impactful part and the Palouse is perfect because there is about 68,000 people living in the Palouse the biggest cities 20,000 it's Moscow. Lots of small communities of 1000 2000 people, you know it's trunk land, you know it's I mean it's a wonderful place to engage and help people help themselves. So, so this is how we, this is how we know, and she and of course Jean Ballinger helped us develop this so to start to focus our thoughts and and and develop a structure that will help us now plan out the organizational construct. And since we're back with you class for a second I'll interrupt Eric just for a second if I may. I put two questions up earlier which which were, do you have an outside conversational technology for communicating with the farmers and with you in the group, whether it's WhatsApp or a mail list or anything like, is there a consistent place where you're talking together, like our matter most chat or whatnot. And that's really easy to set up like like a WhatsApp or a telegram group would work because chances are farmers are usually a little technologically astute because they gotta be. And then the second thing was, is there any way you're creating some institutional memory to put it outboard like the kumu diagram would be great living on a baby website of some sort that where you can start sharing what you know because it occurs to me that as you invent stuff and figure this replicates very nicely adaptably any place anybody wants resources to figure out what to do on the ground, and you're then inventing the innovation broker role as you do this work right now. But the innovation brokers need resources to share in a place to point to the resources like hey look over here right. So I'm wondering if you're if you're sort of focusing on those pieces of those slightly geeky pieces of the work at this point. I haven't even thought about it. Just flying by the seats of our pants, you know, it is. Okay, so that's, that's Pete over to you. I'm Jerry and and most organizations, you know, should have that kind of stuff and don't. I, there's, there's a role that never gets filled which is kind of digital librarian collaboration, you know, facilitator kind of thing. So you end up needing to embed one of those or partial one of those in organizations to get it done, otherwise it won't get done. Just just an observation. Agreed. And so, I mean this, there's really what I, if I were you to create. I find that a simple conversation tool is like a great thing because people like oh my god we can talk to each other. And you might want to do a just a straw poll a simple poll with the people you think you want to have in conversation say are you all on telegram or WhatsApp or Google chat, or what do you use to normally talk with your family or colleagues, and then just build one of those. Because if they're already in the tool, 80% of your job is done just to add a group that that's them talking. And that's really easy the external, the external memory is a little more work and not the tools are, are hard to do but, but anybody a digital librarian or a curator or somebody who can sort of mind that for you as you're as you're doing the work would be really quite like cool. And there might be somebody in the GM community who'd like to play that role in your project just for a while as a volunteer. But you need to find a place to maybe put stuff and that's not that hard to do. You could use massive wiki. There's a bunch of other tools as well but that means you need somebody who's literally a steward. Yeah, pardon. Pardon me, just to pick up on what what Peter suggested. Everyone is so kind of inclined to jump into action very very quickly. And often, and I see class where you're working there are a lot of collaborations going on. And everybody tends to want to continue to move forward without having clarity about what the collaboration is what people are doing together, something that I call agreements for results I'll talk about it a little bit more. And when I check in but that at some point in time becomes essential otherwise you run into problems down the road a little bit. Yeah, definitely. It's a sequential process and I don't I mean I'm very conscious of not getting out of myself. And also the coop you know that to have our team wanting to jump to a conclusion and so we are following the series you model religiously. And also we're going down the curve and every time we develop a new contact that whole line starts up again. Until we reach this processing phase where we're all on the same page. And then move into crystallizing and prototyping from there but I'm very conscious of using of using that structure. Thank you and Eric thank you for tolerating the long interruption back to you. I just posted a link in the chat. It's an episode of connections by James Burke, which is on the Internet archive. And I've been watching these they're fascinating he just traces the trail of things. Okay, so today is 53 years ago today Douglas Engelbart gave his mother of all demos. I watched it this morning and it's interesting to see what he came up with that it's group where and outlining and all kinds of stuff. So, with that in mind, the decentralized web. There was a meetup yesterday with the Internet archive and run by Wendy Hanamura, and they used an interesting space called gather town. Have people heard of that? Yeah. Yeah, so I like that because people had their booths set up and you can just walk around and talk to people and find out what they're working on. So, yeah, I spoke with a person I worked with before he's from there from Canada, and thinking about the, they wrote a browser called aggregor, which allows you to get at different protocols like if you have data in IPFS. Well, yeah, interplanetary file system, or in the hyper core protocol, and several others he now has gun, which is a graph database, and he's working on integrating it with web archiving. So think about that, that you could be browsing for something and download your own web archive of a whole site or pieces of a site and browse it offline. So I think there's going to be something a push towards offline access. So, I did some writing just of my thoughts about how Ted Nelson's ideas could be brought onto the decentralized web, and I'm going to post a link to that now. So thanks. Thank you. That's a great bunch of resources and I'm so some people are motivated by having read Anne Rand's fountain head back in the day some people are motivated by cosmos, you know Carl Sagan. I'm motivated by Berks connection series so you just posted one of those and I'm like yep yep yep that's for me that's a lot of how history happens there's these adjacencies conjunctions and serendipities that people notice and then build on. And we just like, we're trying to do this right. I'm fabulous. So I've forgotten what queue I had, I think I have Wendy. Stuart and Julian. So I have settled a bit. I found a couple initiatives that are taking a bulk of my time and now I'm feeling a little bit stretched. But that's also fun. So I'm going to share with you a couple things that I'm working on and ask for a little insight to if anyone has some. So the first thing I'm working on I'm working on with Jonathan sand to develop further his app called Q&A. It has a lot of the features that I have been imagining since I'm working in a space that's more UI UX, and he's agreed to work with me on some of the features that I've been wanting to see. In addition to that I have aligned with Winfinity, which is Trey and Parmjeet some people might recognize those names from Kiko lab, and another woman Marta, and we formed a little group, and we're pushing forward initiatives there and there's a lot of stuff moving into that community. And that is a community that really holds space to listen brings experts together but we, it's really unique and that we talk about what we think is emerging and what needs to be, like what questions and what features are really satisfied and then we look at all the ideas and projects that are out there to decide based on all the questions that have come up, which projects are the priorities. So it's less about weaving what people are currently doing and more about listening for what needs to be made, just just a slightly different variation on a theme, and I really appreciate that approach. Now that I've connected with OFC and Vincent started to get connected with OFC and Charles Blass is already connected with OFC. There's some interesting meetings happening over there about wisdom repositories and connecting projects with money with with information and then storing everything so they're moving pretty fast, because they had a platform that that was given to them some code so they're reiterating on top of that so it's pretty robust what the demos that I've seen so I'm kind of excited for what can happen there but that's new for me. And then the last piece for me I think over the holidays and be taking some breaks from meetings and doing some real storyboarding and iterative work on the stuff I've been imagining in my head because I have yet to see it anywhere and even with the people I'm working with, I keep coming back to I think I just need to do some storyboarding so people can see so Eric when you were talking about, you know, wouldn't it be cool you go out and you see something and then you get to download it into your own thing that decentralized web enabling that that kind of thing. I've been imagining for a long time the visuals that go along with that what what would the navigation to that kind of thing look like and then how would it look when when people download that what would they see how you know trying to make it really user friendly. So I'm, I'm going to play around for a while with. I'm hoping Figma will really help me if anybody knows anyone who is familiar with Figma that would really help me if I could connect with them. And as a way to start first just I'll pencil out the storyboards but then hopefully put it in a format that I can, you know, have a good demo so between seriously and Figma. So I can start sharing some good demos of what this might look like and even more important what it might enable. So how this kind of technology and this user interface will change the way we think or change the way we work together change and give some examples of what that might look like. So that's where I'm at. Thanks. And I'm having a moment where it's like what you just said and our previous conversations over time, and so forth. If you and I gathered one or two other people who feel like the conversation about about to describe it would make a lovely weaving the world episode, which is, Hey, what's that problem we're looking at, and who's trying to solve it and how might it be solved and what are some creative answers for it so if you like the brainstorm on that I'm all in. Yes, I'm in. Sounds great. Let's go, Stuart Kevin Julian mark. Great so for the last probably close to seven years I have been working with a group started by Meg Wheatley called Warriors for the human spirit essentially it's about modern Buddhist techniques and it's provided a great grounding for me I never could have. I never could be doing the work that I've been doing. If I was still attached to outcomes. And I think that's an important lesson, you know, for for for all of us otherwise you kind of just burn yourself out which I know would have happened to me about six, eight months ago I decided that I only wanted to be in conversations looking at the global challenges we all face because everything else is kind of moving deck chairs around the Titanic. And as a result of it, I even kind of canceled my sound terrible because it feels so politically incorrect, but I canceled my Thursday golf game so I could be in this call on on Thursday, on Thursday mornings. I shouldn't say canceled I rearranged it okay excellent good good. But since then, some of you are familiar I know we interviewed Doug, the society 2045 for what the world might look like in 2045 and Ken Homer is part of that group also, but they called me in, because they ran into a little bit of conflict and my work has always been around conflict and collaboration. And so I helped them get an agreement together about what they were doing in terms of a vision and a clarity for who's doing what to get people there. And then of course became part of that book so that's that's one conversation I'm in society 2045 interviewing visionaries and the group considers itself as kind of a clearing house or a place where all the group all groups doing good things in the world can be coordinated or part of it's kind of an umbrella organization still figuring itself, it, figuring itself out because you know, we all have pieces of a solution. If there is a solution, but nobody's got nobody's got the whole big picture. I have some work with an organization called. Oh, it's it's it's based upon the work of Robert Keegan out of Harvard adult development theory that the gen network it's called. And so I'm bringing my work into that arena in terms of helping people facilitate effective collaborations, because otherwise, you know, there can be a lot of going on in the in the personal development community. I've been part of a project for 15 years that's finally getting some traction it's called becoming thoughtful citizens, and that may be a very, very foundational piece for for for all of us. Going forward it's just starting to get some some real, real traction. Can you say a little bit more about that one, like who's involved or what where. Sure. It was initially started by my friend merrily Adams, who wrote a book called change your questions change your life which has been an international bestseller, and merrily had the idea going back to 2008 that a critical thing was for us to learn how to talk to for for us to learn how to just somebody sharing. Okay, that's me I'm a sharing merrily Adams in her book sorry. That's me interrupt it try admit that's me trying not to interrupt you and build on what you're saying, and that failed so my apologies I'll stop sharing. Thank you, Jerry. I'd much rather look at people's faces I found it a little a little distracting. But you mentioned, you know you asking about that going back to society 45 to the two of the major movers of that program, or a number of the major movers, my friend. Right, who's been doing great innovative work within the legal profession for the last 30 years, traveling all the work all around the world trying to impact lawyers and legal systems internationally. Matt Perez, who's all about self managed organizations, having developed developed one. Thoughtful citizens. Multi author book about how can people communicate and talk to each other well, even people that are different, which ties to, you know, my whole focus is behind all the good work everybody's doing. And the importance of changing the way people think and interact and relate to each other as human beings. Without that shift in consciousness we all know nothing's going to change, and if we can generate that shift in conscious consciousness, a lot of things can change. So thoughtful citizenship is about that we're actually starting to plan an event for July. We're going to have world cafes around the world about what it means to be a thoughtful citizen, and how can more people become thoughtful citizens, whatever that is and there's a, there's a, what will be an ebook that I made some contributions to. So, in addition to all of that, I'm working on a, on a multi chapter piece of science fiction about what would the world look like if we were able to fix all the things that are broken. And I've identified, you know, 3540 things that I'm doing a one page summary of and there was a big overview and my, my, my wish is that it would get made into a TV series of some kind. It seems like a science fiction piece. But I'm having a lot of fun articulating what my work is about. The biggest innovation I think that I can bring, and, and Gil thank you for asking for a little bit more information about it agreements for results. In the late 90s, I had a book published that was endorsed by Stephen Covey called getting to resolution turning conflict into collaboration. It wasn't the book I wanted to publish. But sometimes in the editorial process editors, you know, see certain things. The book that I really wanted to publish was the book of agreement, which was a follow up book that I wrote which is, how can we at the beginning of projects get on the same page. How can we get to a shared vision. What's the conversation we need to have that really grounds collaboration grounds collaboration. So, I'm doing more and more of that work and if anybody is interested. I'm happy to talk about the, you know, what I might do for your projects. Awesome story. Thank you. Kevin I think you have to bounce the top of the hour so let's let's go Kevin Julian mark. Thank you. Yeah, we discovered that we're building an operating system for economic justice with this, you know, community led, and we've got things like neighborhood investment trust and equity fund, and other things. And we're discovering that pieces of them are interoperable and replicable and follow the same process. And a quick example, we've got this repair fund, you know, we're in a big tourism place and the bill more move this neighborhood, and the bill more gets hundreds of millions every year. And the shadow neighborhood gets nothing so the tourism authority in the bill more I want to say okay we'll do a repair fund and yes we'll make a community directed and it's being tried in Chicago and Indianapolis to but anyway, to make a community directed to this other tool that that one of our partners is built in Indianapolis called the neighborhood vitality index and they were able to show that the social capital in this neighborhood they thought was poor was really strong and they got them a bank to reduce the cost of mortgage finance fees by making the social and so it's reversing redlining one neighborhood at a time what we need that to make the capital that tourism folks. to the Charlotte community know what to do with it. So, we're building a bunch of interoperable things and starting to think about it as software, because it's built software three times before be to be niches and when you get reliable reliance on the next thing that you need every time you do it. You got the basis of software and it's not like an operating system with a vision it's just that we need this. And this folks also doing loss reserves and loss reserves are always nasty and the more you pull them that easier they are for everybody. And we're just finding places where we're going to rely on each other to build the thing that we're trying to build to eliminate a bit of friction, but it's, and then the people want to think about what what is the big thing and then there are people wanting to think about who owns this, you know, it's got to be something like a data trust like a land trust or something I don't know. And it's a thing in the comments that facilitates the whole thing, and you know, it'll have money flowing into it. So, from a couple different sources on a regular basis. So, and we can build really long term, because we can because of the kind of capital and then there's still enthropic concessionary patient capital on this donor advice and marketplace along with giving and then some some deals that are in 3% over the long term. So, anyway, it's an operating system and so we're learning to the metaphor seems to be working with everybody, and they much of the people see themselves as point solution, we have only a couple or three things at the operating system level that the marketplace and donor advice fund and repair funds, we turn all the money, and then pulling our loss reserves seem to be the OS low things, whereas everybody else has agreed. There are point solution and maybe, you know, it's like in the early days, when somebody was a word processing thing and somebody was a spreadsheet, nobody had anything like Microsoft Office and just the conversations when you're not sure how it all fits together or when it all fits together are pretty interesting. So, that's what we're that metaphor seems to be oh that that's what we're doing you're most going yeah that must be what we're doing. So I'm inviting some people actually you know know something about that into this process because if you have replicable processes that everybody relies on, then you know you can turn that into software coordination. It's kind of interesting. Thanks Kevin. I put a link to a really nice report on things like data trust there is a thing called data trust it's interesting. That's good. I made it up. I'm black. No, no, it actually exists it's a thing and Mark Kranza and the archive probably know more about data trusts and they don't apparently. It's on the us tray. Not me at least. Yeah, no, no, but I'm thinking but I'm thinking somebody at the archives got to examine that in terms of sort of legal structures for the archive etc so Good idea. Somebody had a connection with somebody at the archive. I'm so every every Friday there's a lunch and open lunch at the archive right mark it's like anybody who knows about it can show up. I will talk about my check it. You have to be in town. No, we're doing it over zoom now Kevin. And I'm the, I'm the guest speaker tomorrow so. Yeah, there's like a 20 minute, they have a 20 minute talk often so. So I think there's a there might be some really nice connections there and part of what I want to do is explain OGM and say hey how do these things how might these things sort of fit together better. So there we go. Mr Kelly. Yeah, I was trying to get into checking. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. Sure. So, Aspen Institute has a request for proposal out. They are planning to, they're looking for ways to combat disinformation misinformation. They are building off the work of a group that did a lot of work on this last year so they have a whole long list of areas, and they want you to pick say how it is that you're responding to that area. And the product is open. It can be a policy. It can't be lobbying. It can't be, you know, we should do this, but it can be a policy that could be eliminated executed by the executive either at this state or federal level. And of course it can be software and it could be wireframe prototype. They pick five finalists. The proposals are due January 10, they pick five semi finalists, each one gets $5,000 and they think they have a month or two to tighten up their proposal and then the winner will be picked from those five and you get 75,000. They're interested in a plan that would deliver something by the end of 2022. That includes a budget includes potentially another funding source. So it's, it's not a rocket, it's more like a rocket igniter kind of thing. I mean you got to also go and get, you know, the other parts of the rocket and put it together. There's several conversations that have already begun about this Doug actually has an idea. I don't know if he's going to mention it but it's, it's an interesting idea for showing the past, by which current news item item got created, and what would be earlier sources that led into it. There's a bunch of other ideas that are kicking around. I want to talk to Mark about it at some point I want to talk to various people. You know, we're, we're ideas are kicking around it's not, it's not a, there's no slam dunk I mean it's not an easy thing to do. Okay, and I certainly am a little sobered by the degree of specificity they want in the shortness of the timeline to deliver it but I definitely think it's worth giving serious consideration. And, you know, we need it. So let's, and if we have an idea, I have parts of an idea other people have parts of an idea. Let's see if we can do something. I've spoken. Good with which you're supposed to like exhale a big puff of smoke and pass the pipe to the next person, I think. The whole misinformation disinformation thing is like this gigantic hairball of twine I propose, I propose we launch a vaccine initiative where we embed small microchips and everybody and then we identify who's creating misinformation and neutralize them with like by sending an electric shock to their chip. Does that sound good. Everybody on board. Awesome. So let's go Julian Mark Pete. So I have a different tack of check in this week I updated my, the brain importer to recognize version 12 brains. Oh, cool. So I have to rebuild on my Neo4j databases which will only take half a day, and then also fix my visualizer which I broke some time ago, and then start building some demonstration movies to at least show because the real things have to be done with some kind of hardware, even as cheap as a Google cardboard, but none of that works over a webcam, but I can at least make some movies and show things working. Is there a way I saw I've got Google card cardboard at home I've got a big brain database you could suck in if I can be helpful in that, or as an experiment or as your guinea pig or crash test dummy I'm happy to your big databases, your brain or Yeah, yeah, which you've been playing with already so. Yeah, I'm just saying. I'm just wondering if the whole thing will break it. We could extract a small piece of it we could, you know, we could try with a small, small hunk. It's not like computers don't catch on fire anymore so that's true. That's true. It's sort of a shame. It took a lot of the fun out of it. And then most of the time I'm dealing with a rambunctious kitty you seem to really answer this way. Excellent. Anything else. That's it. Thank you. Thank you, Julian. If you don't mind when you say you're visual, you know, doing a visualizer on top I don't know your work very well can you just say more about that sounds interesting. So briefly I don't do 2D or what's called 3D graphics anymore because what people used to 3D graphics is actually projective 3D onto 2D. And using actual 3D, the XR technologies to display information or knowledge networks, but my whole premise is based on cognitive science so my approach is to look at how the human body works, build an API for the human cognitive system, and then build software systems on top of that API that interact with the knowledge base. I love the idea that XR equals AR divided by VR. In terms of formal language theory I just call it dot AR because it's dot mapped to any particular character so whatever R you want to call it then I can encompass that with dot AR. Oh good, oh good even even more terminology. So let's go, Mark, Pete, Doug, Michael. Good morning. I have been reading a heck of a lot. As much as I can it always is not enough. But I hadn't read Gregory Bateson's A Sacred Unity for a decade or more and I'm just kind of amazed at how I've been thinking that like both and but one side kind of has to be kept secret from the other in terms of how the sacred works. So don't want to really go deep on that because I can't but at work. I write code and it's tough, but I always get done and hopefully improve the ability to read books online on the Internet archive but I'm getting old turn 59 last week and I find coding incredibly difficult to more difficult than when I was 25. But I've been a part of a group of thinkers here in San Francisco I used to have a thing called T for the thinking about thinking things. And part of a mimics group for about 10 years and so on the 18th two Saturdays from today, I'm having a mimics idea mapping and intelligence augmentation meet up. Hopefully we can put it online. I have some video support. I'm looking for people to talk about one of those notions if anyone is interested. Notions mimics and what mimics idea mapping and intelligence augmentation. I've heard of some of those. Yeah, so that is a struggle to actually plan and make those types of things happen smoothly at the same time, working a part time job. And so I'm tired, but I press on. That's it for me. Help encourage and certainly people who have something to say. Encouraged, we can do an online meeting. I look forward to Jerry's the Friday lunches tradition of the Internet Archive. I heard of the Internet Archive way, you know, decades before I joined, but also came to the free Friday lunches, the in person Friday lunches. Gosh, since Yeah, decades ago. Hopefully after COVID that will start again but now we're having two things before all of our meetings. Well to the Monday all hands meeting on the Friday lunch. We support musicians or poets and give them a stipend to show up and perform for 10 minutes before the meeting which I think is incredibly generous and cool. And we have outside folks Jerry this week to come and talk for about 20 minutes. And look again look forward to hearing and participating in that you had your hand up, Doug. Yeah, I just wanted to say, given what you're saying reminds me, do we have a way of getting in touch with each other that I've missed. They're just generally if somebody says something interesting you want to connect. How do we find out how to what their email is simple, something as simple as that. So you can go ahead, go ahead Jerry, I was going to say you can ask on the OGM mailing list which is the Google group. And then we have matter most channels that many but not all OGMers are in. And there's a matter most channel for this call called call OGM brackets calls. And you could just ask, you know, hey, Mark, are you here or whatever you can ask there. You can also always email me or whatever and I'll try to make connections but there's lots of lots of different ways. Matter most is kind of the best of those. So whether or not you like matter most and get another service. Another service would be arenas trove, or that's true you could use it. The URL for that. Can you post that. Yeah, people do that. And Mark, I notice you're wearing your archive t-shirt. There you go. Archive logo. The archive is in an old Christian, but maybe you can universal access to all the knowledge. The knowledge. The building is in an old Christian science church which is really interesting and it's temple really temple yeah thank you it's a really interesting space and I have I have a funny kind of interesting connection to Brewster. My ex was Brewster's public relations representative when he was with Alexa internet which was a one of the early tool belts for the inner tubes. I remember that you could sort of install Alexa and it would go it would follow your browser and it would tell you popularity, traffic, you know other kinds of things about the site you were visiting. So he sold that off I think the AOL way back in the day. No not Amazon. That's right, which is why the device is now called Alexa, which is why the Internet archive has a bit of funding because he sold it for style. Bingo, but also I think he sold it up with a proviso that as Alexa what continued its crawls of the inner tubes it had it had to donate the data to the archive. And so time delay with it so, but it was brilliant. It was like hey you get to buy this thing this thing is yours. Thank you for so much money, but one of the provisions is you need to feed this this nonprofit thing I'm starting and really it's one of the, the sneakiest and best sort of startup stories I've heard of something like this and and Klaus like watch that space for for you know clever ideas for bootstrapping socially beneficial initiatives. So, and I have heard that people who have the name Alexa. Yes, there's an article about this in the New York Times. What are your names, changing their names because of machines. It's screwing up the Alexa space. Yeah and when I said the word out loud right here I looked up to see whether our device had detected it and I was like, Ah, geez. I don't get this change in your name out to just get rid of the device. Because other people are teasing them. Yeah, and they can't get rid of the other people. It's just much harder. And my house every time someone calls for my daughter whose name is Sarah and goes hey Sarah, Siri turns on. That's great. Okay, let's go Pete Doug Michael. Thank you. I'm going to this works. I'm going to paste my top of mind things and I'm going to go through them real fast. In the interest of time. So I'm working with weaving the world's garden crew, which is David Boval and Wendy Alfred and I, and a little bit with good work house. Weaving the world and garden crew. We're, we're, and knowledge casting and wisdom casting things like smart cities, water, water and land. And something called voicing guy. Some of those are kind of proposals some of those are actually happening. Craving and knowledge casting and wisdom casting are kind of the same thing. It's sense making around a recorded event more or less. Jamaica and Katie at Open Futures Coalition are running something called the Interoperable Wisdom Commons, which is if you're one of the people into knowledge gardens or collaborative knowledge or yada yada. Wouldn't it be cool if all of those things interoperated. And if that sounds, if that makes any sense to you then you want to find Jamaica and get yourself invited to that group, or me or, or whoever. I've actually got a small client working on air table. Changing them from Google sheets for their CRM system to CRM and contract management system over to air table it's cool to have a little paid project like that for good work house I'm working with their project management person doing project management with our table, your table is still awesome. In massive wiki obsidian land. We've started experimenting, especially Bill Anderson, and I and Mark friends a little bit we're experimenting with using a peer to peer sync file sync thing at file sync application called sync thing instead of get and so far we kind of like it. We also started building a little Python app to do recent changes for massive wikis and obsidian and stuff like that. This is embarrassing to say but I think I'm actually really making money on on liquidity mining and yield farming on osmosis which is on blockchain based on cosmos. I don't know about that but whatever. The federated wiki channel on matrix is an interesting. It's interesting watching word work word cutting them the guy who invented wikis among other things hangs out on federated wiki in matrix and you know they're he and a few of the other folks are just working on stuff, particularly if you're into mapping right now they're dipping pretty strongly into mapping. And today I learned about something called DMX, which is a. I don't I don't even want to say graph database but it's, if you're into graph graph based knowledge. DMX is cool and I'm going to post a little bit about that in tools and technology or math, the name of a rapper. Although I'm not sure it gets out there sometimes my reading queue is termination shock done of everything ministry for the future. I'm actually doing pretty poorly on all of those I got about halfway through termination shock which is the new Neil Stevenson novel. And it's cool. It's about the near future, when the sea has risen. I kind of stalled out in the middle which is really weird I think it's finally getting to the good part and I really love Neil students and stuff but I guess I've got enough other stuff going on that usually we kind of endings not models. Yes, exactly. So then after that I need to get into dawn of everything. And ministry for the future, but so that's me, I have spoken. You're muted. A few of us had a few of us had a question in the chat on what is liquidity mining. That's a great question. Let me answer that let me before I do that let me say a top of mine thing. As a person who sometimes comes later along to a recording like of a call like this. Not, I'm not pointing to anybody here in this call I think we've all had great sound quality but one of the things I noticed one of the previous calls is that when you've got a lousy microphone, or if there's a lot of people talking over each other. It makes the description a lot harder and makes Pete sad. So, so one of the, you know, one of the digital literacy things zoom literacy things of the future is not only make sure that you have good light and all that kind of stuff but make sure that you sound good. And it's going to help somebody in the future, make sure that your words get recorded. So back to liquidity mining and yield farming they're kind of the same thing. This is in, if you follow the, the rabbit down the hole. If you and if you start at Bitcoin, and then do blockchain and Ethereum, and you get a little bit further. The thing after that is something that's called decentralized finance. And that's named decentralized finance in opposition to centralized finance. So in a centralized finance system you go to a big company like Goldman Sachs or whoever and you say hi, I'd like to. I'd like to borrow $100,000 at x% interest and I'll pay you back or I'm going to have some kind of weird derivative, you know, I want to join your rent seeking group so that, so that I make money while you make money and screw the planet and all that kind of stuff. So that centralized finance banking is banking and loans and derivatives and all that stuff. And then following the rabbit down the hole from Bitcoin to Bitcoin, the simple thing in this scheme down to what's going on with blockchains and tokens and all that nowadays. The, the people that the developers working on that stuff have kind of re, re, re implemented centralized finance but in a decentralized way. So, as we speak, there are automated market making systems that run essentially completely autonomously. And you can enter essentially financial marketplaces where you can buy and sell, you know, money futures and earn interest on on helping other people get loans and and and depending on who you listen to, probably there are a bunch of shady people laundering money, you know, millions or billions of dollars of money in there, I don't know. The automated market systems do the same, it's all the same kind of operations that you would find in centralized finance but it works autonomously over smart contracts, if that makes sense. And then there's a little bit of control over the smart contracts and even those things are governed not by a board of directors at Goldman Sachs they're governed by people who have voting shares in a distributed autonomous organization, all very arcane and stuff like that. Because it's the early days, you can. So now I'm getting around to liquidity mining and yield farming. In the olden days with Bitcoin, what you would do is the way you would mine value, the way you would claim a part of the value space of Bitcoin is by running your computer, either your CPU or your graphics processing unit for a long time super fast and you would buy bigger and bigger things and and use more electricity and generating more heat and carbon and stuff like that. That's the old way that you would stake a claim of the value space. The new way of staking a claim of the value space is by locking up a chunk of of your money basically you turn you turn us dollars into tokens and you turn those into other tokens and you turn them. You mix them with other tokens and finally you stake your liquidity you say here's you know $1000 or $10,000 of my money that I'm just going to let you hold as a counterbalance to the the machinations of the of all the investment and banking stuff that's going on. So that's called proof of stake rather than proof of work proof of work burns electricity proof of stake just freezes capital basically maybe capital is the wrong word freezes money really freezes value. So, so it is that I have a little bit of savings that I can kind of speculative play lock up and then get amazing interest rates on unbelievable interest rates. And the the unbelievable part is you don't know whether or not there's bugs in the code you don't know whether or not there's shady people going to like fold up their tents and just go home with your your locked up value. So if the rise and fall of the tokens are going to make it so that any interest gains that you've gotten just are wiped away by depreciation of your tokens, etc, etc. So there's a little bit of art and a little bit of skill and a lot of luck and and sweat and worry that that's baked into it. That sounds confidence inspiring. I can make it sound a lot worse if you want. If you are exactly there's plenty of stories to tell. So, so in a sense, it's an alternate illiquid savings account with really good interest rates, but pretty high risk factors. It's, it's, yeah, if you think of a CD. It's, it's conceptually the same thing as a CD, except that it's a lot riskier and not insured by anything like FDIC and subject to complete loss. You'll, yes it is just a way for them to have to have more. Yes, I am part of the rent seeking, you know, point one percent. I get that it doesn't unbelievable interest rates usually mean Ponzi. It's a really good question. And it comes up a lot. I don't really know where all the value comes from to drive the incredible interest rates. There's, there's a difference, maybe, maybe a difference of degree rather than the difference of kind. There's a, there's a. There is maybe another way to put it where I where I actually do know my, my P's and Q's and what what happens startups are kind of the same thing right startups are a little bit of a Ponzi scheme. It's like, I, you know, me and my buddy, we're going to put in a lot of sweat equity and max out our credit cards and buy servers and, you know, graphic designers and programmers and stuff and develop a thing that then we can sell 50% of to a B.C. And then they're going to sell a bunch of their stake to other VCs and the whole thing is going to expand right. I know from hard lived experience that being early in that game and producing a thing of value. It's not really a Ponzi scheme kind of means that you should get incredible rewards. So now that I think about it, I have to, a lot of startups are kind of, they are Ponzi schemes and VCs are, you know, in the them that has has get more. But maybe they're not, you know, there are startups that have successfully made, you know, useful things in the world and and are of value and stuff like that. So it's kind of the same thing is a, you know, as a Silicon Valley startup, a Ponzi scheme or not. And I can say, maybe it is maybe it's not. I, it feels the same thing with defy and yield farming. There's a real thing here and and the the thing that's being built that is going to help replace centralized finance seems like a good thing in the world, especially if you're working on proof of stake, rather than proof of work. And proof of work is bad because it burns a lot of electricity makes a lot of carbon. I have to, I have to, since we went through proof of stake proof of work I have to do a shout out to Rob O'Keefe, another wonderful OGM member. He's a Bitcoin maximalist, which I have a disagreement with, whether that's the right thing or not, but I respect his opinion. He also makes this and it's a really hard argument to make, but he makes the argument that the, the coal and hydro thermal and the solar energy that's getting utilized to to prop up Bitcoin is not necessarily wasteful compared to all the other things that we might be doing with it and, in fact, may be a way of improving our energy systems. So he and I tussle back and forth I actually just kind of, I kind of dropped the link into hey this is a cool thing about Ethereum and how much carbon it emits how many terawatt hours it uses. And he's like, and it, and it, and it caught him unaware kind of is like Pete is this one of those things where you're saying that proof of work is stupid and you know, like, you know, you know, so let's compare to Facebook or let's compare it to centralized finance or let's compare it to you know, there's a trope in the Bitcoin world that you can, you can get Bitcoin maximalists in a tizzy just by saying proof of work sucks, you know, because it makes lots of carbon. So, I want to kind of bookmark that as a proof of work proof of stake thing isn't like a, there's, there's a lot of additional context that you need to have that discussion you can't just say. However, I can also say that I just go to proof of stake it's like, hey I'm on a proof of stake work blockchain. I respect the Bitcoin people and I'm just, I'm not interested in that argument so so I'm not burning a lot of carbon, I am rent seeking. And you could drop in on this entire conversation by going to the matter most channel named block Cheney. And do you mind putting a link to it in our chat here. I don't. You could certainly ask more questions in block Cheney. I'm not sure that anybody would find it particularly interesting. But I saw Rob's post on like, whoa, okay, etc, etc. So, you know, if anybody's curious that that would be a good place to go, like, ask questions. You know, since I'm here, I can also say, there's another trope about the web three people or the defy people or the Bitcoin people or the Ethereum people. It's like, you know, it's, there's a couple cartoons you can, I showed Jerry one. No, I don't. But anyway, you know, this, this well meaning person who maybe looks a lot like me comes over and says, Oh my God, this web three thing, it's amazing. You have to get into it. It's defy. It's decentralized. It's amazing, right. And everybody's like, Pete, come on, you know, I don't need, I do not need to see that JPEG getting sold for $69 million. Really, that's just not a thing that I need in my world right now. Right. So, yes, the whole web three decentralized defy, blah, blah, blah. There's literally billions of dollars, you know, up to about a trillion 1000 billions of dollars sloshing around in this crazy marketplace. And some of that weight does work things a little bit. I'm here to say, along with a few other people who are much like us. There is real value here there is real technology that's being built that's useful. We're, we're in the early stages of kind of the equivalent of a next.com boom with web three and decentralization stuff like that. There's a real pony in here. Under all the BS there is literally, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars of BS washing around to and it makes an interesting, interesting space. Somebody, somebody said, you know, it's it's kind of like we're going through the early days of the dot com boom, except this time. The money came first, and then we're doing a lot of tech development in the dot com boom everybody, you know, people like me were working for, for little money. And then we had to figure out how money got into the system. And there's a story there about how we ended up with free things like free search and free news and all of that that is a horror show to tell and reverse. So, yay, the universe gave us a thing where we didn't start with free everything. We're starting with paid everything. And it's a different right, but there is real value real structural stuff real technology that's being developed on a bunch of rent seekers dimes. And it's so the value there is value there. Julian. I was going to point out that the general rule is that the more risk you have take the bigger the reward you get. And that does describe Silicon Valley and it seems like your liquidity mining also has a pretty high risk factor which is why the return is greater. A Ponzi scheme would be 100% risk and 0% reward if you're not at the beginning. And from that I wanted to lead into a comment about NFTs and stuff. A scenario I saw yesterday was, first off, you have to have the capital, but say you have 2 million in Ethereum. You create an NFT, sell it to yourself for 2 million. That sets the value of the NFT, you then sell it for 200,000, and you now have 202.2 million without really much work. I like that. And thanks for that Ponzi definition. That's a good one. I don't think that the NFT marketplaces aren't as stupid as you think they are. Not you, Julian, in general, but you know, people would go, okay, this NFT marketplace is stupid. There are definitely stupid examples to it, but having been a participant in NFT marketplaces, the market actually kind of works. So you can get distracted by going, I don't know why somebody spent, you know, pick a number that would be too much for you to spend on a digital stamp collecting basically, you know. I wouldn't spend 100, I wouldn't spend $1,000, I wouldn't spend $10,000, I wouldn't spend $69 million on that. But for the person who spent it, usually they know what they're doing, and usually it wasn't a problem for them, and usually they got value out of it. And liquidity mining is better than that NFT scheme for what it's worth. I, you know, so, and there's a weird thing, it's not actually risky, it's just that you have to know, you have to get the feel for what's risky and what's not. The actual marketplace you end up is actually not that risky, and it's really weird that millions of dollars isn't flooding into this more. So the, let me kind of scale this for you. 150% APR is not, that's a, you know, you can get 150% APR in yield farming pretty easily. So 150% APR means that annually, you would get 150%, like you put 100 bucks in and you'll end up with 250 bucks. That's the math on the fly, I hope that I'm not screwing this up. This is the same APR rate, like if you go to your credit, credit union and say hi I want to $10,000 CD they'll say 0.5% is what you're going to get right. So instead of 0.5%, you can get 150%. That's like a huge number. So the way that you figure out. And then the cool thing is, I just said that in APR. If you change that to APY, annual yield instead of annual percentage rate, the APY is the compound version of APR. If you take 150% and compound it daily, which is what happens, the rate goes up really dramatically. So literally you can end up doubling your money in like seven weeks. Which is really striking. And scary, I have to say. We have slipped past our usual 90 minutes. We have three people left in the queue. I'm happy to hang out and keep going. Doug, thank you for your patience. We have Doug, Michael and Gil. I think I'll just pass at this point. I'm sorry. We'll start to, we'll start with you two weeks from now when we do the next go round. Michael. I'm happy to pass to say, I'm too busy with my head swimming. After, after feature. It's all fascinating. Yeah, provocative. Thanks. Mr friend. Yeah, just real briefly, I'm likely to pass also, but I'll just say that, well, love the call. I'm, I'm, I find myself in a dance between structure and flow, experimenting with having a much more rigorous framework and schedule. I was never a Marine, and I'm practicing what might that be like to live that way. And alternatively just go with the flow and follow my nose and follow my intuition at any moment where it goes. I've been in a flow cycle. I'm bringing back I think to a structure cycle because there are things that are just flipping that need to unslip big echo to steward about wanting to spend all my time in conversations like this. Both ones that I've organized and ones that I find my way into. And my challenge there is my other imperative these days which is figuring out how to monetize me. I don't know if that looks like liquidity harvesting or something else but, you know, have a need to sustain a family and medical expenses and so forth so just being in graduate seminars all the time. Doesn't, I'm not sure how to map those together so I'm exploring that the, the, the current hypothesis is to focus on executive coaching of a different flavor and keynote speaking mostly through the web. And hopefully buy some time with that to do the other more, you know, in the, in the kitchen kinds of things and we'll see how that goes. Pete I want to talk more about liquidity harvesting. Stuart I want to talk with you more about what we said we're going to talk about. Awesome. Since we're in overtime I'll stop there. Thanks everybody. Luckily we don't have sudden death over times in OGM. That'd be embarrassing. But really appreciate the conversation and our note taking and all the rest of it. So, thank you very much until next week when we'll do a topic so let's refine our topic on the matter most chat for this call. Last question I'm sorry. Can you share the link to the event tomorrow you were Mark. Yes. Mark to hard handy I don't think I haven't had any. It's going to take me a second. Let me see if I've got it. Let's see here. Okay, there's that window. Here's the slack. It's typically a lunch link copy. And everyone paste. Okay. I am actually not sure how many people are, are welcome during that. I will ask that question today. I don't know what the protocol is. Yeah. That's the zoom link. That's not the invite link. Exactly. The zoom link it starts at five minutes till the 1155, maybe even 10 minutes still sometimes, but I will post in the matter most channel. I'll ask that question immediately. I think it's okay because I think there'd be a few people interested from OGM in participating now that it's now that the zoom that's in zoom not face to face because I think it's okay I was hoping to invite the woman whose name I always forget from society library. Jamie, Jamie Joyce, Jamie Joyce, thank you. And hey, everybody have a great week and cool. We can we can. Thanks all. Thank you. Thank you, Jerry. Yeah, we want to talk about digital objects on the archive. You mentioned that maybe Monday or Tuesday. Hold on a second let me stop the recording.