 Now, I have to say I'm just personally, personally, so proud and so excited to welcome Bob to our stage. He's been here a few times before, including as an accredited, perceptive questioner. Bob is a hero of mine for a few reasons. One is that as an inventor, as an innovator and creator, he created some stuff that I've used throughout my life and that I really find powerful. Back in the 1990s, he created the Criterion Collection of Movies. I'm now a continuous subscriber to the Criterion Streaming Service, which is amazing. He also kicked off the first great series of CD-ROMs called Voyager, which broke new ground in interactive media. Since then, he's produced even more projects, everything from the comment press, plug-in for WordPress, to tools like TDK and Sophie. A lot of that has come under the header of his ongoing project called The Institute for the Future of the Book. So all of that is going on, and his papers are now at Stanford University. This is the kind of figure we're talking about, but he hasn't stopped. Today, he's about to show us something brand new that just about nobody else on Earth has seen. There's a tool called Tapestries, and I'm fascinated by it. It gives us a new way of interacting with digital media. So rather than talk about it, rather than talk about it so much, let me just bring Bob up on the stage so that he can show us what Tapestries is and also show us how it works. And above all, take your questions and comments. So Bob, where are you today? I'm in Williamsburg at home. Oh, very good. Very good. Nice to see you there. Very good to see you there. And thank you for joining us. I think Bob, you know our custom. We'd like to ask people what they're going to be working on for the next year. And my guess is you're going to be working quite a bit on Tapestries. Yes. Shall I take the stage? Shall I go? Well, yes. Why don't you tell us about Tapestries and how it came about? And although... Brewster Kale and I have been talking to each other for a well over 20 years now. And at a discussion probably about a year ago, he was mentioning that for 25 years the Internet Archive was focused on bits in. And maybe it was time to focus on bits out. In other words, how to make the archive more useful. And I convinced Brewster to hire my colleague from long ago from the Institute for the Future of the Book, Dan Weisel. And Dan and I started noodling. And we started with an aphorism that we came up with. I don't think it's that original, but it was working for us, which was that the reason why we collect the past is to enable the present to get ready for the future. We wanted to understand why had Brewster gone to the trouble of collecting this amazing archive over the last 25 years. What was it good for? And so we started with that. And we just started doing some experiments. And we ended up at a place that was very different than where I expected. And those of you who know my work know that whether it was criterion, which by the way, we started in 1984, not in the 1980s. Whoa! I'm old, what can I tell you? Anyway, but whether it was criterion or the expanded books we did or social book or TK3, everything was based basically on elaborating a linear text. And so tapestries, as you'll see, is completely different. That's not what we're doing here at all. We think that we are moving towards what I would call a new media type. And the easiest way to describe it is that a tapestry is an infinite canvas that contains any number of objects that can be displayed in a browser. And I think I should show it. I think it's going to be much better if I can start showing. Okay, why don't you just share your screen? And I'll make your screen bigger so we can all see it better. Okay, what happened to the share my screen button? So if you mouse over yourself, which sounds obscene, but you should have a few options. Share my screen, there we go. Okay, share. No, is that what I want to do? No, you want to close that. I want to close it or I want to go somewhere. That's better, that's much better. Okay. Now I can see microscope's arc prudent, I think. Hold on. Oh my gosh, I think we lost everything when we had all the setup is gone. Okay, so let's get going. I'm going to run you very quickly through a bunch of tapestries. Dan was a literature major in Harvard and fell in love with Emily Dickinson. Whenever I have a new tool to play with, I always start with Vannevar Bush. Dan starts with his favorite Emily Dickinson poem and he found eight different versions at the archive of his favorite poem. And these are all active Internet archive windows, book reader windows that operate as you expect them to. This is Dan's wife. This is an introduction she makes. She's a librarian. I'm going to play this for 10 seconds. Hi, I'm Kim Beeman and I'm going to talk about a few of my favorite cookbooks today. And if I click on one of the cookbooks, it's going to bring up another tapestry which has two different versions of this book that we found at the archive. Here we're just simply showing that we can sync up audio or video with an object. I'm going to click on this. The United States Bill of Rights, the ten original amendments to the Constitution of the United States. Read for LibraVox.org by Andrew Fiore, December 27, 2007. Wow. So this is, this was really where what got us started. I was searching the Internet, the archive for something and I couldn't find what I was looking for. But I found this rather remarkable lecture that Alan Kay gave in 1995. It's an 85 minute lecture where he basically runs down the, the contributions in the 60s, 50s and 60s of the early pioneers. And one thing that came up crystal clear in his talk was that the ideological basis of these early pioneers was quite different than what emerged by the mid 70s. These guys, and they were all men, they were, they were excited about computers as a way to make life better for humanity. Whereas by the 70s and Bill Gates and Michael Dell, it's all about making money. But I realized there was no, I didn't know how to get, I wanted everybody under 50 to see this, but I didn't know how to get anybody to watch an 85 minute film of somebody they'd never heard of about people they'd never heard of. So we started experimenting with breaking it up into pieces and showing how they connected to each other. So these are just three introductory comments that Alan makes. If I click on Engelbart, it's going to go and it's going to bring up a tapestry about Engelbart. And this is his Wikipedia page. This is the mother of all demos, video mother of all demos, Wikipedia page and Ted Nelson's amazing eulogy for Engelbart, which if you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it. Yeah, everything that I did to get ready disappeared. So this is an art gallery really. We, in 2000, we gave this tool called TK3 to an artist named Alexie Teen. And Alex made these amazing books that don't run anymore. Fortunately, I had made videos of somebody working through all the pages of the books. And these are all here. And it's pretty fantastic. Pretty fantastic. Let's cut the videos. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'd set up all these pages. So these eight windows are a day's feed from a Russian television station. And we wanted to make a tapestry that would show people what Russians were seeing on their TV now, and all these windows work. About a month ago, the Internet Archive, though, upped the ante dramatically when they put out the TV News visual explorer. And here we have seven windows, and each one of these windows shows the entire output in key frame form of one of seven different Russian television stations. And if I just click on anything here, it starts playing right away. Except this one, I forget which is so slow. Anyway, you get the point. Here we have three different classic video games all running in a tapestry. Now, when I saw code running in a tapestry, I got very excited. And I thought, well, gee, I'll go make an homage to a hypercard, which is sort of what all of this is sort of trying to get back to in some ways. And among other things, we have here the first Voyager expanded book running inside of a tapestry in the little window. So I thought it would be really interesting. Here's basic running in a window in a tapestry. Wow. And I thought how great it would be if a teacher, high school teacher, could have her kids learn about what it was like to program in 1980 by giving them access to this page, which has basic running and a very wonderful instruction manual for kids on how to program in basic. And this ability to mix and match code with text or mix and match anything with anything, it looks increasingly powerful. This is simply a way back machine page in a tapestry. But what's interesting is that we've put a scrubber at the bottom of any way back machine page. So I can go get any other date that this page has been crawled by the archive and it will come up. And this page when it comes up is active. If I click on this, it will go there. And so I started doing a deep dive in the if book blogs. And I don't know if you all remember, but in around 2004 or five, Jaren wrote this terrible essay about why he didn't like Wikipedia. And a bunch of us wrote in essays in response. And all this if book post is basically an annotated set of links to these essays. And it occurred to me that it'd be interesting to turn this inside out. Why foreground the blog post when we could actually foreground the essays themselves. So here's Jaren's original essay and each one of these windows is another one of the essays in response. Now, I mentioned earlier that we think of this as a new media type. Now, a new media type has to be portable. It can't just sit here on an Internet archive page. So if I go here, I can get an embed code. I'm going to make this a little bit wider. I can get an embed code for this tapestry. And then I'm going to go to a blog I got. And I'm going to make a new post and tapestry demo for VA and company. And I'm going to paste in the URL, I mean the HTML. And then I'm going to preview that in a new tab. And what you get in this is you get the tapestry running entirely in a blog post. So it truly is portable. Now, there is one more thing I want to show you, which is that we have the ability to import an entire collection from the Internet archive into a tapestry. And I brought this one in for fun one day. This is just a bunch of Atari magazines, but they're all here and they all operate. And when I saw this, I thought that, gee, this starts to feel to me an awful lot like being back in the stacks, right? Because everything is here. There's no friction involved in going to look at something else, right? We're starting, I mean, I think probably everybody here over the years has seen examples of what a digital bookshelf might look like. But frankly, technically, it hasn't really been possible yet on the Internet. But now the Internet, the technical base of the net is getting so good that we can start to imagine digital bookshelves that look like this. And here it is in the course of a tapestry. And I think I should go back here and make one last comment before I give up the stage, which is, hold on, let me just go back here. Okay. One of the things that we've noticed is that if I give you all of these documents in the same visual field this way, as opposed to giving you a set of links or a bunch of tabs, it encourages the reader to be much more active. There's so little friction in terms of looking at this or this or this that you tend to explore more because it's so much easier to explore. And that plus sort of the overall gestalt of being able to show how one object relates to another object, etc. So we think this is hinting at what the next truly portable document format that makes sense in the Internet era. I don't know if any of you remember Muriel Cooper's work from the late 80s, early 90s, where she showed people traveling around in three-dimensional data space. And these tapestries that I'm showing you are obviously two-dimensional, but we absolutely can imagine going down the road that tapestries will be three-dimensional. And some of you will be in headsets looking at stuff and moving around in ways that, frankly, many of us have imagined for 40-odd years. And now finally it looks like the technology is caught up to us and we can start to do the things that we imagined. So how do I give up? How do I stop the screen care? You should have a similar button probably on the top right of your... Yeah, here it is. There we go. And now we can see you. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm blown away. I have so many questions about... But friends, you all have questions. You all have ideas. So let's run a few of these up and let's see what else we can learn. First of all, we have one from Tom Hames. And Tom asks, how do you see this relating to Ted Nelson's Zanadu concept? You know, none of us would probably be here for warrant for Ted. You know, I... Transclusion is burned into the idea of tapestries. You know, I mean, Ted had one great idea and it has fueled millions of us for 50 years. So yes. Definitely, definitely. I'm going to hoist a couple of questions out of the chat as well. So I'm going to read these out loud, but I won't be able to show them. Melissa Techman, unless I ever get that right, says, are there plans for collaborative tapestries like Wiki, etc. editathons? The first version of tapestries, well, tapestries will be open source and all kinds of things will evolve. I don't know that version 1.0 will be super collaborative where three people can work at the same moment on the tapestry. We'd like to get there and we may, we know it has to go there eventually. But I think significantly it's two issues about that. Whether or not we get there at the beginning, I think it's important to mention this is orthogonal to what you asked, but the dividing line between making a tapestry and reading a tapestry is going to be very narrow. Because any tapestry theoretically can be forked. So if I send you a tapestry, you can decide to fork it and you can add to it, subtract from it, rearrange objects in it. So the dividing line between reading and writing, as always, needs to be narrower and narrower. That's going to be narrow. It's very, very narrow with this. Thank you. We have a question from our good friend, Laura Gibbs, who says, as someone using the Internet Archive hours a day for curated collections, when is this coming? Well, so Laura, if you'd like to experiment with it, I will, we can talk. When it's actually coming as version 1.0, my guess is it'll be at least six months to a year. Not more than that, but that long. We have something, all these tapestries that I showed you, I can make pretty much any of them in about 15 or 20 minutes if I have the URLs. But the problem is that it's not the way it's going to be, which is just you're going to be able to drag and drop something from a favorites folder on the archive onto a tapestry field. Right now, you have to specify an XY coordinate and you have to specify a size. That won't be there in the end. But if you'd like to play with this, Laura, a future of the book at Gmail, hit me up. I'd love to do something with it. That'd be great. And just as a meta note, lowercase M, this is one of the things you see how transform does is connect people of like mind. Thank you, Laura. And let me also have a question here from John Hollenbeck. And John asks, can this become an interactive medium in the style of brown intermediate, et cetera, multiple threads can be overlaid? Is there more to that? I'm not familiar with brown intermediate. I'll look that up after this. You know, I'm, it's my hope that if this is, if the architecture we come up with is good enough, and it is open source, that almost anything anybody asks, can it be done? If it's worthwhile doing, somebody will do it and it will grow and evolve in that way. I mean, I'm very interested in getting something resembling hyper talk into tapestries, right? So that you can make a tapestry with simple if then statements. If I click here, then show me this. If I click there, then show me that. You know, I think that I don't know how many people here were cut their teeth on hypercard. But the amazing thing about it was that, and I'm one of these people, I failed physics for poets, but people like me and teachers and students, we were, we were turned loose in a way by hypercard. Suddenly we could express ourselves in this new medium. And hyper talk was an important part of that. And so that's absolutely one of our goals here with tapestry. Well, there's a bunch of hypercard fans in the chat and me among them. And then we have some more optimistic comments and shouts. Tom Hames says choose your own knowledge adventure, which is really good. Absolutely. Laura Gibbs makes a link to twine the interactive fiction authoring tool. And Ian O'Byrne, a great guest asks, or he raises the thought, forking would be cool. Imagine having one viewpoint or perspective on the tapestry and then a second alternative perspective. Imagine two competing tapestries on climate change, vaccinations or pineapple and pizza. Yes, absolutely. And it occurred to me that I could make a tap, I could make a single tapestry with all the tapestries on. It really is an infinite canvas and absolutely dueling tapestries are what it's all about in my mind. Anything that gets people debating in a civil way is good. Very good, very good. Roxanne Riskin asks a question from the end of your show. And let me just put this out here. She says, is search functional and how are the results displayed? Search is not functional now. Good question. The other thing, I don't know, I didn't say it and I don't know if anybody noticed it, but in version 1.0, there will be a rich commenting function for the tapestry as a whole and for any individual object in the tapestry. What we probably won't have in version 1.0 is commenting within a tapestry. So selecting a paragraph or a line out of a book and then having a conversation about that one line, that may not be in version 1. We'll probably use hypothesis code redesigned for tapestries, but I imagine we'll use theirs. Sounds great. We have more questions coming in. Cheers for hypothesis more. This will be fantastic. Jason Green observes, this reminds me of what FedWiki does. And I actually don't know what FedWiki is. And Jason, if you want to share us a link, that would be great. And Laura Gibbs comes back with another question here. She says, can the lending library from the Internet Archive be included? Well, I mean, a lot of those books that were in the tapestries that I showed are to actually read them. You have to borrow them via CDL. We can import any object that's at the archive, including a book that is in the CDL program. Oh, excellent, excellent. And Laura says, which is great, CDL is a simple click tomorrow. Tom Hames throws up a wild idea for educational use. You could make this a tapestry, this meaning the open syllabus galaxy. So I'll just put the link there in case you guys haven't seen this. It's a great project. We've already looked at that. I mean, there's no reason why syllabi shouldn't come in the form of tapestries. Yes, that would, it couldn't be worse. What a great idea. Syllabuses, I mean, you know, think about it for a minute. You know, I don't know how many of you use PowerPoint or keynote in your gift talks. But the linearity of a keynote presentation frame after frame after frame. I think it's going to be great when people can use tapestries for their, because it would be wonderful to be able to see a gestalt of what is being presented at the time. I can't wait to give a talk where I'm using a tapestry as the basis of it. Me too, me too. That'd be closer to Prezi or something like that. Yeah, except, of course, as everybody who's mentioned Prezi in the course of tapestries says, it's just like Prezi, except Prezi makes me sick to my stomach. Right. So this is the low bar for success, does not make the audience nauseous. Jason is very helpful. He's throwing in a bunch of stuff, including a welcome to Fedwiki. Jason, thank you. I'm going to check that out. But he also had a question, I'll put that up too, which is, what's the state of the documentation? I can imagine building learning experiences around tapestries, but I wonder how difficult it would be to build one. It's going to be really easy. I mean, at the simplest level, from if you have a favorites folder at the Internet Archive, you will be able, literally, to drag something from the favorites folder onto a tapestry. And it's there, right? So I mean, you should be able to make simple tapestries in minutes. I mean, it's, again, to go back to hypercard, you could make something very simple in five minutes, or you could make something like when Voyager made its Macbeth. It took a year to do it. I mean, if we do them right, tapestries will have a very long runway, where it's very simple to do certain things, but if you actually have the ability and the desire, you can do very complex things as well. That sounds very powerful. Tom Hames has a whole stack of questions, and he's just been throwing them out. And in fact, because he's been a great guest, and because he's a great friend, we're actually going to just draft him on the stage, because I think he's got a lot more to say. So let's bring him up on stage. Tom, you started off by saying, among other things, you've been dreaming about making this, or using this kind of tool, and do you also think this could shake up people from their normal attitudes towards technology? Yeah, so I mean, I actually started chewing on this a few years ago as well, and it came out from a different direction, because I was trying to figure out a better and more authentic way for people to exchange information about themselves. How do we get rid of college transcripts, for one thing, like that? How do you create a more authentic picture of who you are, both to institutions and employers and things like that? And of course, I'm looking back at Manobar Bush and Nelson, and just like you are, and going, okay, what we really need is these discrete content bits that we can rearrange to show who we really are, because what we really are is not a GPA, and I worked here, and I want to see the project you did. But yeah, I very much came around to this idea that I'm a big concept map friend. People who know me know me, I'm a real concept map geek. And so the one question I did have, I mean, I had a bunch of questions, but one question I had about relating to that was, to what extent are the graphic capabilities of Tapestry, you know, the arrows in the way, can you create different kinds of connections between content bits? Is there a toolbox for that? How's that working? There should be a simple toolbox that allows you to bring out a text box and put it somewhere with text in it. You can bring out arrows of different sorts. Those arrows can go in different directions. Again, if you can imagine it, and it should be there, somebody will add it. I mean, that is the goal here. I mean, I think I've learned my lesson. I am a perfectionist, and a lot of the things I did over the years, what is it about the perfect as the enemy? And so this time, version 1.0 is going to be as simple as we can make it. And there's a good architecture that can evolve. I don't want to try to solve all the problems. I want to make it so that those problems can be solved as they come out. Yeah, that's one of the things that's really exciting about this. And the thing about concept maps that, where the limitation is, and I know, I think it's funny that if you look at Augmentation of Human Intellect, Engelbart's using a concept map in there to explain stuff. And I'm sure that was a real monster for him to create that. And so one of the things I've always said is that nowadays it's really nice because I can create this stuff in Miro or any number of other tools very quickly and easily and can do it collaboratively as well. But the one limitation is you can't go deep. You can't take that box and then go zoom underneath that three-dimensional view. That's what's got me really excited about what you're showing. Yeah, I mean, I don't know how many of you know about Jonah Raskin's zoomable interface. But I think that for tapestries to take off in all the ways that they can, we're going to have to find a fairly easy way to zoom in and out of something. Yeah. And my Xanadu question was really about that depth question because that's, I think that's really what Nelson's trying to get at there is that the metaphor for the internet is paper. It's still stacks and stacks of paper and how do we get past that? And I think Xanadu is a maybe a quixotic quest of getting past that. But I think, you know, the idea is there. We've got to figure out how to get that. And of course, maybe it needs to be a VR. Maybe we do need to be able to walk through it. Eventually we will. You know, I just came back from Germany where I went to document the every five-year art show into the Berlin Biennial. And one of the things that we noticed was I'll bet we saw a minimum of two dozen art objects that were just huge knowledge maps. The intersection of knowledge mapping that we were interested in with where the art world is right now is very, was surprising and very interesting. Yeah, absolutely. I was really, I was recently in Rome and I was in the Vatican Museum. And there's a hall in there that I took a picture of that Pope Gregory said he put together. And it's gold along the top and it's all of the Bible, the heaven and Bible stories. But it's a visual map and it goes on for dozens of, I mean, it's a really long space. And then on the side, you've got the earthly things with maps of Italy. And I'm thinking to myself, this is visual thinking 15th, 16th century style. And so this is not a new thing. We just have an amazing set of tools that we're starting to develop. And thank you for doing this that now we can start to do this at a whole different level. But yeah. I hope so. Tom, have you posted those images on Flickr yet? Yeah, actually they're on Flickr. I'll share a link to it. Please, please do. And as always, I tell people Tom is an unbelievable photographer. So just, and by the way, if you're, if you're new to the Future Transform, that was just an example of a video question. So just hit the raise hand button the bottom of the screen if you want to join us with Tom. You don't have to be in blue in order to do it, but it's good to see that. Melissa Techman. Melissa is a Techman or a Techman. I don't want to get it wrong. Melissa says she's thinking of museum education friends, which is I think a very powerful use of this touch. Thank you. And we also have, let's see, John Holmbeck says that the third dimension is definitely in play here. Laura wraps is just just she just waxes rhapsodic about this. She points out that there are 7000 diasporic folktales on the Internet Archive now, which could be shown this way. They're often in variations. She mentions 10,000 African folktales, for example, ready to go, ready to be in the tapestry. Thank you. Thank you. Friends, what are the questions and comments do you have? Again, just hit the question mark to join us to throw sorry to throw up a question like you've seen before, or hit the raised hand if you've got a question that you want to talk about on stage. While you're all churning those out and thinking about them, Bob, I had a couple of questions for myself. One is, is a given tapestry basically an HTML file? Yes. I mean, actually, we are all the data for tapestries right now. We're storing it in a Google Sheet. All the data. So all the, all the, the URL, XY position, the size and what the object is. So this is a, this has a very basic architecture, which makes it easy to build on and easy to use. It's incredibly basic. I mean, it's been so interesting showing tapestries to engineers who look at it and they say, what's the big deal? I could do this in five minutes. And the answer, the only answer I can make to them is I know you can. It's not hard to do what we did. I mean, conceptually, you know, it took a long time to come up with this. Right. I mean, for those of us who are old enough, you know, we have been looking to do something like this for a long time. Right. It's, and I mean, whether it's, whether it's Ted Nelson or Engel Bard or any of these, you know, early people. I mean, the work that Nick Negroponte did at MIT, you know, incredible, you know, the path was set out for us a long time ago. I actually can, I have, I'll show you a wonderful little tapestry. Please, please do. Which. Just do a shared screen part again. Yeah, I'm, there we are. Discursions and let me, there it is. Okay. Share my screen again. Did I do that? Not yet. Not yet. Oops. Sorry. Can we switch us here? No. Oh, share my screen. Okay. Share. Okay. Okay. Are we good? Yeah. Discursions? Yeah. So this is a, this was a video disc that the architecture machine group, which became the media lab, have made in about 1981 or two. And we distributed this at Voyager. And this is just the liner notes. But I put all, I only put four of my favorite videos here and from the, from the examples. And one of them was the movie map. And the, about a month ago at Google, they, they show their immersive maps. Their immersive map system and the immersive map system at Google allows you to go inside of a restaurant and see what it's like. Okay. But that's what Aspen had showed 43 years ago. Stopping at a building and turning and turning and going into it. And so I added, after I'd made this tapestry, I added this demo from, from Google as an homage to what had happened. I forget what you said that made me want to show this to you, but it's, what, what question had you asked? Well, I'm asking if this is an HTML page or an HTML document. I, you know, you're above my, you're above my technical pay grade. These are just either iframes, right? I mean, we, everything you're seeing is just an iframe in here. And I know you, I was saying that technically there's nothing, that's what it was. So here's a question. Here's something that was imagined 43 years ago in, at MIT. And it took 43 years for Google to finally be able to put that kind of functionality into a product. And I think that we're, that's what we're seeing with tapestries is that the things I was excited about this field, you know, 40 odd years ago, now all of a sudden we're finding that we actually can do that. Wow. I mean, I was showing this to Vince Cerf, the other day. And, you know, one of the guys who started the internet. And I mean, you know, and it was fantastic for him to see it. You know, it basically, he said, finally, you know, Oh, wow. Wow. This is what we were always thinking we could do. To hear that from him is just, it's just, wow. Well, I mean, he, he understood this more deeply than I do in a lot of ways. It was very exciting. What a great story. Bob, we have, we have more questions coming up. I'll make sure people get a chance to ask. And you can tell friends that we're friends with questions. Let me undo this. Okay. There you go. Perfect. So, whoops, whoops. Hang on. Sorry. Sorry, I just pressed the wrong button. Lee asks, can tapestries nest? Can I embed a tapestry into another tapestry? Yes. Multiple. That's what you saw with the Allen K tapestry. Or the, or the cookbook tapestry. Those were embedded when I clicked on one of those pink squares. I was opening up a sub tapestry. Very nice. Very nice. And then Laura, who usually inspires us now decided to scare us here with her question. We should say something about the publisher lawsuit against the Internet archive. Maybe documents for summary judgment filed by both sides about 10 days ago. Internet archive needs to win this suit. Yes, it does. Yes, it does. Now, if, if the Internet archive loses that suit and their lending library is shut down, does tapestry still proceed? Of course it will proceed. You know, if they, if they lose, I'm assuming the Internet archive doesn't die, then everything that is not covered by the copyright can be in there. And one, you know, and one, one of the reasons why I love doing this project with the Internet archive is that if something isn't in the archive, I can add it to the archive. Now, I'm not talking about, about copyrighted materials, but as, you know, if I, as a, as a teacher have photographs of something that I want to show my students in a tapestry, I can just upload them. Right. I'm not surely copyright issues are important and need to be addressed, but they're not going to stop us from finding some way for people to express themselves in this new way. Very good. Thank you Laura for mentioning that. And Bob, I admire your spirit on this. More questions that have come in. We have one from John Hollebeck, who takes us back in history as he's been doing in the chat. And he says, in the seems the 80s and 90s presented a great leap in interactive consensual hyper media, but in the web rounded out is the real challenge to replace linearity with holistic views of knowledge. Yes. I mean, the thing is, is that it's true, you know, I mean, when I think of stuff we made at Voyager, we still don't have that. I mean, you know, in 1987, right, we made the guide to Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. It was an amazing piece of work. Thirty seven years later or whatever it is, we still don't have such things one on the on the Internet, because technically it was just too hard. But the great thing is that we are now everything has changed. So I'm not. It's true. The 80s and the early 90s were amazingly interesting periods. And our goal of developing holistic modes of knowledge, creation and transmission emerge then, and they've been in the background for a long time. I mean, I think one of the things that I've noticed in several of these calls I've had recently is the world divides into two people right now. People say to me, this is great. Do you have it working on a phone? And my answer to that is it'll work fine on a phone, but why would you want to use it on a phone? I mean, I look at my grandkids, I have a lot of them and they, you know, ranging from about three to 16. And most of them have phones, but most of their time on their iPads and their computers. I mean, yes, we all got forced into the phone as sort of the be-all and end-all of hardware. But I think that's going to shift dramatically, whether it's because we're all wearing AR glasses or because we have headsets, or because, you know, we carry iPads around with us. It'll work on a phone, but that's not the goal here. And I think that both the internet and the phone slowed us down dramatically. When we made the first comment press and then social book, it was the phone that in a lot of ways killed us. I mean, everybody wanted everything on the phone and couldn't get the support that we, you know, understandable. These are not sour grapes you're hearing from me. It's just the reality of how things develop. I'm just glad to have lasted this long that we can start to do it. We're all glad that you lasted this long. We've had a steady stream of discussion in the chat, people bouncing around hyper-media history to some aspirations. Tom just started thinking grandly about marrying the Internet Archive of the Long Now Foundation to create a database to last 10,000 years. And then there's Lisa Zidenberg says that she's waiting for annotation like Voyager could do. She misses that Beethoven concert. And then the list of Techman mentions several real challenges. She had high school students this year and inspired by the Electronic Frontier Foundation, by Corey Doctor, etc. They were from projects in the library. Lisa, if you want to say more about that, please either, you know, hit the chat or join us on stage. We'd be glad to. I guess another question to ask is thinking about pedagogy, all kinds of classroom use here. I can see instructors making tapestries, students making tapestries, and then people connecting their tapestries to each other either through group projects or through annotation and commentary. Am I on the right track here? Absolutely. I mean, you will be able to, you're a teacher. You're using some tapestry that somebody else made. You'll be able to make a private group for your students to be in that tapestry and to talk to each other. I mean, I think that what we found when we did social book, and I think Kathleen could probably bear this out with comment press, but that the, when it's a private group, the signal to noise ratio is much higher. When the conversation is taking place in public, there tends to be a lot more noise. So it's important, it seems, especially with students for privacy issues, but also so that there is enough quiet for real discussion to take place. There has to be some ability to have a private group, not just a public one. That makes a lot of sense. We have a lot of practice we're just going to have now so we can see more. And then I guess one more question to ask is for me. I mean, friend, the place is here for you. So I would love to hear your questions and comments. Personally, Bob, I would love to create my fall class semester syllabus on tapestries. But that's next month. If that's too soon, I can wait until January for my next class. No, we might be able to do it. I mean, let's talk. I mean, it depends. It depends if you're willing to do the work of putting in XY coordinates and resizing. But I mean, you know, we would, you know, the question that Brewster was kept keeps asking is, you know, well, if we build this for anybody use it. So I mean, I'm not worried about the answer being yes. So if there are people want to make something and sort of prove this point that people will use it, that's good. Very good. Very good. I'll follow up because I would really like to try that out. And we have one more. This is from Laura, who is just on fire today. And Laura asks a practical question. Is Internet Archive hosting these tapestry spaces, groups, logins? And if not, who's hosting? No, no, I mean, the idea anyway is that this is a project of the Internet Archive and they will be hosted there. Very good. Very good. And friends, in the off chance that you haven't recently poked into the Internet Archive, I put a link to it in the bottom left of the screen. So you can go there and explore the riches there. And in the in the chat, Tom and John go back and forth about education. One John says to move the challenges to move towards consensual, nonlinear, personalized expressions of knowledge. And then Tom responds, the foundations of educational systems are linear and paper based. We need to recognize that and move away. This attachment says a bit more about her students. They're very able students. They were interested in the right to repair the open source, social justice. And one of the able students bailed, taught herself and is now at Stanford. Kathleen Fitzpatrick has a question. Let me see if I can bring her up. Oh Kathleen. Kathleen, I can't see you and I can only hear backgrounds now. Okay, maybe she's having a technical issue. But also we are right now at the end of our hour, I'm afraid. We've just been shown an incredible treasure trove. Bob, how do we keep up with this development? Should we just simply stalk you by email or are you going to be starting to throw out blog posts on the Institute for the Future of the Future? Well, the Institute for the Future of the Book, that really was, that was a five year MacArthur gig. It was over by 2010 really. But, you know, anybody can contact me by email. I mean, the next time I'll announce something I think is when we have, we've secured the funding that we need. The nice thing though is that if we had, whenever we made anything, something like this five years ago would have required millions of dollars and years to do. We now know we can do it in months for hundreds of dollars. And that's, it's an important and wonderful sea change. It is, it is. Well, we're really glad to have glimpsed this ocean with you, Bob. Thank you, thank you so much. Thank you very much, everybody. Your enthusiasm is incredibly exciting for me. Well, I think you'll have a bunch of people following up with you, including myself. Okay. But don't go away yet, friends. Let me just quickly say how exciting this is to you all. See, if you want to talk about this, use the hashtag FTTE on Twitter or tweet at me. You're sending events or hit me up on my blog, Brian Alexander or we love to keep talking about this to share your ideas. If you want to go back into the past and look at some of our previous sessions on some of these topics, including everything from concept maps and copyright. Just go to tinyurl.com slash FTF archive. If you want to continue thinking about the future of education, other domains, just go to forum.futureofeducation.us. We have a ton of topics coming up. And if you have anything that you're working on, that is awesome, please shoot me a note so I can share it with everybody else in our next program. Until then, thank you all for your, like as Bob said, for your enthusiasm, for your history, for your deep thinking. This has been one combination demo, one part demo and one part seminar, a graduate level. Thank you all for joining us. I'm so glad that we had this glimpse of a future. In the meantime, everybody, please take care. If you're in the Northern Hemisphere, stay cool and we'll see you online next time. Bye bye.