 Okay, we're back. We're live for the four o'clock block I'm J. Phi Dale. This is think tech and Mitch Ewan and I are alone at last on Hawaii the state of clean energy and Hi Mitch Hello, Ajay Hello from my palatial corner office up in H&E I and UH Manoa. I think it's beautiful. It's a statement of academia It's a statement of research and developments and it's a statement of of you, Mitch Yes, exactly because I have no windows just like when I used to serve on submarines no windows So I'm used to it So the reason we started a little late today was because we were on the hookup with Lou Poorisi of Energy in America. He joins us from e-pring energy policy research foundation in Washington And we were talking about energy prices and how they have dropped Supernously and how that affects the price of oil and how that in turn affects the economy in Most plays bad but in some ways good. It's probably going to lead to lower prices at the pump And for that matter, unfortunately, it competes against renewables Because it's easier to buy a car when you have cheap gas out there So this this will have some effect and nobody knows how long the effect will will last We are in a transitional time We don't know where we're going right now and it's a matter of really watching things carefully therefore The open house program that white electric has been talking about Becomes important. It's an engagement between the public and the utility it's an opportunity to really talk to ask questions get answers and You know share thoughts, especially in these difficult times Interestingly, you know when everybody it's discouraging meetings, you know hundreds of people showed up last night. That was impressive And they didn't shake hands They didn't shake hands. Well, there was a lot of elbowing going on. Yeah So it was a moderated discussion with You know everybody on the panel there were about six people on the panel and they were Answering questions by the moderator and they were, you know giving their, you know, opening views and followed by Questions on meeting sift, which is a program that think tech has been close with for a long time I was happy to see them use that program And you know, we left around 715 or so you stayed and you saw more the discussion more the q&a But can we go through this from the outset? You know, how did it how did it work there? I mean, you had six people all with different points of view Talking about energy energy future whether we're doing it right or wrong and I guess providing context for the for the Utility, but how did it go? Well, first of all, I'd like to say it was a really first-class event. I thought it was Really well organized. I was really encouraged to see the senior leadership From Hawaiian Electric showed up or starting off with the new president Soon got you was there Yeah, and a lot of his VPs were there so that was really good that leadership from the top showed up and It was really well organized. I mean right from arriving In the parking lot to getting it was down in a loha tower at HPU really good Setting and like I said, well organized and yes, they had the panel and it was an interesting panel. It was You know thought-provoking I would say all the speakers Had their own slant on where we're going now. This was a integrated grid planning exercise and the whole Like community so it it consisted of a like you said the panel giving you know their views And then backed up by sift and where you like you said you could dial in a question And they were like by the time at the end of the evening. They're almost 60 to 65 questions and Hawaiian Electric says that I mean they only answered a few of the questions which they asked the panel to comment on And there was no really discussion Directly with the audience other than the audience got to ask the questions but Hawaiian Electric did say that they would answer every question and They would be available on the website and they had a nice brochure With good contact information on how you could get to their website and look at the questions and answers So the interesting thing will be to see what the answers are and how and how well they address them But overall I thought it you know the panelists presented a broad view Starting with the local community and social justice and and those kinds of issues to how do you implement a project and it's really tough Challenge everybody admitted that I mean land is getting scarce. I was particularly impressed with the guy from the farm board, but he represented the farmers and We're raised basically running out of agricultural land and you know what he highlighted was this constant push pressure to accept You know the best land we have pushing to put PV on it And that was kind of pushing the farmers out and making it even tougher for them to a farm and afford their land and also You know we can't grow food on land and the only kind of act You know they talked about dual use and the only dual use so far has been running sheep Underneath the panels to munch the grass to keep the grass down And I guess you could slaughter sheep or you can get the get their wool But you know not the kind of a one crop and not maybe the best use of that land So that that was pretty interesting and really highlighted the point that they're the first speaker Cynthia I don't didn't catch your last name talked about impacted communities like They don't put a wind turbine or these big facilities in the backyard of a Cola hola Neighborhood that they push them out to the line I and the west coast and Up in the north shore and push them on those residences and the common is why are Weaver the brunt of these projects and that's basically not fair and you know I thought she made a very strong point on that and the other part of it was Ponoh Shim Came on and said you look you know they don't talk to us They talk down to pay the developers come in and they talk down to us There is a picture of Ponoh Shim very interesting presentation. I've got to say Memorable because now he spread this blanket out on the floor Characterizing in his Hawaii is in the middle of this blue blanket IE we're in the middle of the ocean and then all these guys come down from the mainland telling us you know they're here to help and Dumping all these theories on top of us So he's had all these library books they piled on this on this blanket And at the end of the day he said we don't need these guys telling us how to live This is our home and he picked up the blanket and flung the books, you know around the front of the room So you might not like the way he got the message, but everybody's gonna remember that So from the point of view of communicating an idea. I thought it was really effective I mean, you know, you have talking heads like most panelists, you know, and it's like yeah Yeah, yeah, so by the time the next panelist gets on well, what what did that? God, you know, I kind of miss it in all the noise So Ponoh made a really good point that and that's kind of what this open house is all about is not like forcing these projects on all of us without Thinking about how it affects us Like, you know the the big wigs, you know who own the banks I mean, they're like to say they don't have a wind turbine in their backyard like maybe the guys on cohoop reduce. So like You know, what's fair and the and the big question I had is okay, give it all this. How do you actually is it impossible the question? Is it actually impossible now? Are we getting to the point? It's impossible to put in these large Energy renewable energy projects certainly on a Wahoo because you know, basically we're running on a land I mean the land owners You know they get more money from putting in developments and housing estates and it's push push push push and you know It may take them 10 15 20 years to get that housing development in there But in the end it seems they always win and we always lose so Go ahead and comment on that Well, I yeah, I will I you know, I found that everybody as you said was coming from his own silo Was only you know interest group one kind or another and you mentioned a number of them And it's certainly worth discussing that but in an overarching sense My concern was I would have liked to see some, you know, direct discussion and pushback on what they were saying I didn't particularly agree with Cynthia And and the first question it was asked is how come you know all these You know wind turbines are being installed in rural areas Where are you going to install them downtown on Bishop Street? The only place is rural areas and and we have a real contention about that. Do you do you like? Solar more than wind if you make a solar farm it takes lots more acreage Even though the blades on a turbine are you know 150 200 feet wide You're not using up all the land as you would in a large solar, you know facility So you don't say that wind takes more land than in the solar. It doesn't They're you know, maybe they're equivalent in any event You know, I I appreciate the activist approach to this I appreciate the the notion of you know, we have to get buy-in from everybody But at the end of the day there were two things on the chart of The chart of inclinations the chart of priorities if you will that they showed on meeting sift at the outset and the largest group that answered that the the largest Priority was let's have renewable energy. Okay. Well, that's a state goal It's been a state goal for ten years or more And we we can't lose sight of that the worst thing it happens is you know one generation of of Political thinkers makes a decision and they go through a whole process about trying to implement the decision They have trouble doing it now another generation comes in and they throw that decision out and start from scratch We have seen that so many times Let's remember that we that we adopted renewable energy for climate change and so many other reasons And we have to keep on that the second preference priority if you will was Reliability as I recall And reliability, you know, unless we forget Everybody assumes every day every minute that the lights are on that these computers work that we have energy That's reliable. It doesn't brown out or black out or fail and we have to make sure that happens Now when we get into these these weeds about well, where are we gonna put it? Where are we gonna allow it? Let's let's oppose this and have a long conversation about that What we're really doing is putting both of those priorities off the table It's hard to do renewables if there's no place to put them and it's hard to do You know reliability when you when you cannot actually go, you know, do what you decided to do So I would have liked to see more pushback on her and on Murray Murray from Elipono, I thought that was very useful. He was talking about the capital concentrations and How we plan and how we and how we socialize these things because that's the bottom line I think of this whole discussion and all the You know the gatherings that a Hawaiian Electric has organized around the state is we need to socialize things But at the same time, I think we also have to look at more than, you know Me me me and NIMBY and I want this and you can't do that But we have to look at those those priorities and make sure that we keep on track to you know have reliable And renewable energy. Let me go down one more Pono I knew what Pono is going to say before he said it because he said to a loa And we have you know, and I think that applies to everything in the state probably everything in the world including Coronavirus That you know, we have to care for each other We have to be a community and everybody has to have a say and and we all ought to be mindful of You know of the Hawaiian values because that's that's what makes this place special at the same time As I said before I think the conversation has to include the realities and the needs. We have agreed We have to have let's see. I'm trying to remember who was after Pono Oh the farm the farm. Yeah, the farm. You're right. I missed somebody. I know I missed somebody here Josh Strickland. Oh Josh Strickland. Yeah, Josh Standbro He's a fellow who organized the lawsuit against the oil companies Which was filed just in the last few days and my reaction that lawsuit is is this the right time? Don't we have other fish to cry right now And this is going to take a lot of time and energy and not money because it's a contingent fee With a firm in San Francisco, but nevertheless, I would like to see our climate change people You know spend their time. I hope they still are You know I'm moving the needle ahead in terms of that, you know our renewable energy, you know goals and projects And and he is he was he's a very strong figure in the city and his commission is very important And I hope we can get him on the show soon to talk about the connection between his commission and climate change and energy and All the purposes that we have to blend together on this the next one And I want to spend the time that you did because I think it's very important with the Brian of The farm the farm group the farmers group. This is you know, this is very very interesting I'm so glad they had him in that panel Absolutely so often we forget about farming we forget about agriculture in general And I think we have a kind of a crisis here because we used to have agriculture We don't have so much agriculture anymore. We are clearly unable to feed ourselves only McDonald's has a 30 a 30 day Supply of food and food becomes important in a time when the supply chain is threatened by coronavirus So, you know It would take a long time from now to the time we become self-sustaining, but we always have to think about it, you know and the problem I see is Yes, we have to give land to the farmers But but but that does not emanate from the the sheer fact that the farmers don't have land We have to actually make it available to them We have to find a large landowners that will sell it to them at reasonable prices and not land bank it for Generations not hold on to it for a stunning profit at the end of the day We have to find people willing to finance their purchases. We don't have that So the average small farmer the farmer we hope for you know We want to rely on going forward for the next generation of Hawaii He has very few options and nobody is really helping him or her and I would like to see those things happen And I think that comes before choosing exactly what land we're talking about and whether that you know the farming Activity is competing with the energy activity. I'm not sure that's the real issue The real issue is making it possible for farmers come out of school at UH at sitar Know a lot about farming and the science of farming and actually be able to do it on their own land You can't build a farm without capital and you can't borrow Without owning the land and you can't own the land without somebody who will fund you So right now we have a you know, we have a dysfunctional system and we have to address that first But I think it's very important that they haven't downed it or talk about land use Let's see and land use was the neck who was the next speaker you recall. I was uh Ching last name Yeah, of course Colton. It was Colton Ching from from one electric and I was glad they had somebody Especially uh, of the you know the high office of Colton Ching at wine electric He's a vice president a senior vice president very important We hear from a wine electrician program like this and it's very important that he spoke and he's he's very succinct he's very direct and He picked up on Brian's thought about land use in an island state. It's very important about land We only have a limited amount of land and when you talk about energy energy does take land Especially renewable energy and he made that point and at that point we went to our how many 60 questions and so forth Um, and I would have liked to see those questions discussed in greater detail I would have I would have liked to see and you know Comments by more than one person is the way it was working out one person was commenting on one question But what about other other members of the panel? What about the people in the audience commenting on the answers? Um, maybe that's just the way it has to work But uh, I would like to see um, you know more more more What do you call it active conversation on all of those questions? So that's how I feel about it. That's one of my thoughts Okay, so so thought well, maybe that's an area because you know, this is an energy policy forum Um show we're you know sponsored. I mean, maybe there's a there's an area that the uh energy policy forum can weigh in and we could take that on as a project just internally ourselves is to Look at all those questions and the answers and then respond to them To send them out to our membership and make sure that we have some input into that I mean, we have this new program that Sherylons, uh, we is uh promoting For networking and uh, so here's a good. Here's a network that's been set up for us by a wine electric and Organization should be more involved in what the answers are and and ask even more penetrating questions. So um, one of the things that uh, I was a little bit disappointed in Obviously was the electrification of transportation. So we're just totally focused It appears on electric vehicle battery electric vehicle charging stations and no comment I mean, I read the transfer electrification of transportation A plan that Hawaiian electric prepared and they blew off hydrogen in one paragraph. Oh, it's not ready yet It's too expensive a round trip efficiency all the normal Things against hydrogen that no hydrogen guy on any of their working groups And I think that's a serious hole in their In their electrification plan because hydrogen vehicles are electric vehicles And they can certainly help absorb renewable energy off the grid and energy storage I mean, you know battery battery storage can only be short term I ran this by our guys here up at the hnei just yesterday To talk about energy storage and batteries are great for short time storage like minutes Hours maybe a day but anything over that you have to use hydrogen. That's the only thing that makes sense So if you want to go energy storage For a week or a month That's the medium of choice So we need to Hawaiian electric I believe needs to start looking more seriously at the hydrogen You have where we've got our great program going on the big island right now So hopefully we'll have some buses running soon and we'll be able to demonstrate it I do understand it sounds a lot like vaporware now But we're going to transition from vaporware to actually wheels on the road very soon So that's my comment there and it's going to cost a lot of money To put in the additional infrastructure required to charge those cars You know, uh, you know, it's okay when you have you know, three or four thousand cars But what happens when you get, you know, 500,000 cars? You know parked in driveways all wanting to charge at the same time I mean can our wires and transformers hack the load Most people not really efficient either, is it? You know one thing that was that was running in my mind through this, um, there was it wasn't really discussed as Uh, this this whole notion here. We are in Oahu. We don't have enough land And we have people who say that you know, don't don't go in my backyard And I don't I don't want you near me and and it's unfair that you don't have a windmill on Bishop Street You're trying to put a windmill in Haula instead. That's rural. You know, that's that's my neighborhood. Stay away Um, and I'm you know, I'm troubled by that because what what it points up is that is that Each island, you know is in its own silo and we do not share Question is this an island state or a state of islands? Is each island with its own persona its own self-interest its own view of the world Or are we going to some some time get to get together on things? I actually think around statehood people were more You know state oriented there seem to be island oriented now even though we're you know 50 years later so When I when I was thinking actually was was that it's really regrettable That the lanai Pipeline the lanai, you know power line never got off the ground Everybody was opposing that a few a few people stopped it and it was very highly politicized and all that And it was tragic in the sense that that would have been an equalization An equalization of the producer on one island and the user on another island So then we wouldn't be talking about not having enough room on one island And having room on the other island but not able to get the energy from one to the other I mean it seems clearer and clearer that we have to equalize that now you can say that there are You know that the whales are affected by a power line through the channel you can say that Uh, oh gee was I don't know what the objections that were made To the line none of which I felt were legit Um, and so we don't have it It's probably radioactive as a political issue with not coming back anytime soon But I want to join you in the thought that there is a way not only to store energy in the state of Hawaii But to move it around in the state of Hawaii You could go to PGV and you could put them you could make hydrogen put them in tanks You could hold the tanks store the tanks ship the tanks move the tanks all over the state at relatively minimal costs And you can leave them there until you need them And that would equalize the production of energy and the use of energy all over the state We have that resource and we have that technology and as far as i'm concerned, uh, you know that or cable either way Uh, is is quite appropriate for the state of Hawaii and we should focus on that I don't think we think about it at all these days, but we should think about it So one of my first projects when I came to h&mi was to look at just that and and really the conclusion Was that oahu will have a very difficult time of becoming self-sufficient With energy, but all the other islands can become self-sufficient And in fact, as you said I have excess capacity that can be shipped here to oahu So what's the alternative? Are we just going to oahu is going to import expensive fuels from uh, you know 2,500 miles away Or are we going to import it from our neighbor islands and the neighbor islands get an economic benefit out of it And we get to use our energy and the other and the uh, you know the other part the other question I raise as well If we can't get the energy then we're going to have to move the people So let's migrate out migrate from oahu And start, you know moving to the neighbor islands. So for example, we could move all the all the state Government to the big island or a Maui and so we balance the load that way Maybe dumb to say something like that But you know, what's it going to be as we keep on building up our population more and more and more people Something's got to give yes, right so Something's got to give you got to pay the piper one way or the other Well, you know, there's this race other issues It raises other issues that are totally totally related You know the farm issue for example with super ferry We would have been able to deliver diversified agriculture products all over the state cheap Yeah, um, and we blew that and and the super ferry is another radioactive issue that is not going to come back anytime soon um You know and she has People talking again about a ferry just like it's what been eight or nine years. So the cycle is repeating itself But who's going to invest in a ferry given what happened? Who's going to invest in another 30 meter telescope project? I mean, we just keep shooting ourselves in the foot by taking on these positions of not in my backyard But i'm not going to let you have it either. So you know pretty selfish actually So this is a mega demands a high level of thinking don't you it demands a statewide analysis Of all the resources in the state and all the demands in the state And and look looking back at things that maybe failed politically But shouldn't have failed and trying to reimplement them now Uh and moving into the 21st century and I don't know where coronavirus fits in all of that But when you have you know as you hero said yesterday a substantial degradation of our Economy in the next few months. Well in fact right now, but lasting for a while Um, then maybe you have to rethink some fundamental points about how the state operates. What do you think? I absolutely agree. I I read a book a long time ago called taking care of number one And the the main one of the main themes is people will not take any action until they are hurting So I remember when I first came to hawaii Henry Curtis asked me what will it take to get a hydrogen in the state? I said five to ten dollars a gallon gasoline Because when people are really hurting then they're going to start looking at the alternatives right now Despite everything that's going on. We're all in our comfort zones. Like you said, I turn on my light here my Happens if I'm only allowed to use the lighting like three or four hours a day because we don't have the energy To generate all the electricity we need to run this place I want to make one comment on the fossil fuel companies. I haven't met yet one fossil fuel company executive who hasn't been pro renewable energy and uh, you know Don't tire the current management with the sins so-called sins of the past I mean we all bought the oil and we all enjoyed it and we all loved it And we all have these big monster cars and trucks here in hawaii We love these monster trucks just try to park in some of the parking spots beside some big huge pickup truck So we we're still using a lot of oil just to get that monster truck moved around so Yeah, you know, we're not we're not we're not oil companies anymore. We are energy companies. Yes So we're talking to like al-shi, you know, he says hey if there's a demand for hydrogen or some other kind of renewable fuel Or it could be biodiesel. We'll supply it. So it's what you're what you asked for We're in business to supply the needs of our customers. It's a customer So we shouldn't be suing the oil companies. We should be suing ourselves Because we're the people that keep them in business You heard it on think tech hawaii If I were you I I know what you would say now you would say jay, we're out of time. It's time to go