 and welcome to Talk Story with John Waiheke. We have a very important subject to discuss this afternoon and it affects the health and welfare of our community and this is the issue is in regard to the situation at Red Hill where the Navy currently has some fuel storage tanks up there and it's become a controversial issue because as many people can tell you, as a number of people can tell you, a number of experts can tell you that the fuel tanks are not really secure. And so I brought our guest this afternoon is Melody Adubba, who you know to tell you Melody this is so generational because you know your father and I were in politics together over the years and here we are and you know you are let me describe you and well you're retired lawyer so you've got a good legal background but more importantly you're a full-time dedicated democratic party activist and I am when you're very much involved with the Red Hill situation I actually for the audience edification I actually heard in recent years about the situation at Red Hill or maybe three or four years ago for Melody. We were at the meeting and you said you know this is a big issue and we should be paying more attention to it and here we are today as a state front and center on all of it. So welcome I appreciate you deciding to accept my invitation to be on this program. So tell us a little bit about yourself you know first of all give us a little bit about your democratic party pedigree so that we know uh people out there when I know what I mean when I say activists I know your chair and co-chair number of party caucuses right yes why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself okay thank you thank you so much governor and I really do appreciate this opportunity to meet with you and to be interviewed by you and it's very important topic very front and center and everyone's minds at this point uh yes I am the co-chair of the environmental caucus of the democratic party along with my other co-chair who is Alan Burdick and I'm also the chair of the health committee and I also serve as second vice chair of the Hawaiian affairs caucus I'm treasurer of the women's caucus and I'm vice chair of the kupuna caucus so yeah I do wear a lot of well I tell you what Tyler Tyler um who uh you have the party chairman yes I talked to him I said was going to have you on the show and he said oh she's the de facto leader of the you know of the whole movement with regard to red hill so here you are now tell us a little bit about the issue why what's going on and why is it important for the people of Hawaii to know about it okay yeah it is very important and as you had mentioned earlier uh the environmental caucus through what was a subject committee of the environmental caucus that I was a chair of uh from several years like I believe this issue came up in 2017 2018 we've passed a resolution at that time that we are to look at the seriousness and the risk and the dangerousness of red hill and it was passed by the democratic party and so at that point we started having uh through the environmental caucus uh I guess they would be uh forums you know I met with um Ernie Lau and Irwin Kwata a board of water supply that's how that all started and they came to the headquarters and we had several meetings and we learned more and more as to what they wanted as as the managing director and head engineer of the board of water supply and of course they are responsible or board of water supplies responsible for all of the drinking water of the city and county of Honolulu and we learned of that these um 80 year old tanks which is our 20 tanks up on Halava red hill and they're huge they're they're humongous I mean you're looking at it was a description saying that you could fit uh I don't know you could fit a loha tower in these tanks is that pretty much the size of it yes that's correct because the height is like 250 feet high and 100 feet across so it's it's huge and anybody that wants to know how big the tanks are just go down and look at a loha tower and think of if you had to cover it that's what one tank could be the size of one yes yes and absolutely and we have 20 of them built up there 20 I'm sorry I continue with your with your explanation so you you you have these meetings that what what caused you to go and decide that this was something you ought to be looking into what was it was there some kind of tell-tale yeah definitely well of course in 2014 when there was that first bill and I'm calling it first because that's when it was first became public knowledge of 27 000 gallons of petroleum and for the longest time I believe it was red hill was classified until until 1990s or thereabouts so we didn't even know that this fuel tank underground fuel tank facility uh existed and then when we found out about this massive petroleum spill then it was very concerning and I have asked the navy because they've had several meetings and I've attended and this is the fuel tank advisory committee meetings at the capital and I've asked them what happened to the 27 000 gallons of petroleum that leaked out in 2014 yeah what happened what did they do with I mean nothing governor I mean there's really nothing you can do that's that's the issue I mean it leaks out and you just let it go you don't clean it up you don't do something with it you know it's going into the the porous the salt rock so you know it's not like I suppose if it was something you could skim like in the ocean and then you can put those uh orange things and kind of round it up but that's not what's going on because what it does it's going into the groundwater and so it's little pockets here and there in the ground that it's entering and then eventually we'll go into our sole source aquifer and it's called a sole source aquifer because it supplies 77 percent of the water for city and county of Honolulu which is so now this there's 27 000 gallons of that's lost already that is going to just pollute water somewhere or it has polluted water already probably yes aren't there reports of the presence of gasoline or something in the at least at the navy housing where apparently it would be the first uh first area affected by its spill yeah evidently the uh red hill well which is owned by the navy which supplies military housing and some civilian housings at the Ilocoy point has been affected not particularly from the 2014 spill but we've had a huge spill this past year in fact this one they're relating it to the november 20th spill which was 14 000 gallons of petroleum plus water so that's november 20th that was a Thanksgiving weekend and it was that spill that somehow got into the red hill well and then on to the pipelines to the military housing and Ilocoy point well governor we are also tying that last spill with an earlier spill on may 6 initially the navy indicated that the may 6 spill was only 1600 gallons and they were able to recover most of it but subsequently we're learning it's not 1600 gallons but rather it was 19 000 gallons wow that's a big difference very big so you're trying to say at least since at least since uh 2014 the 2014 that was 27 000 yes and then there's 14 000 and then there's 19 000 so all together we're looking I'm doing some quick math we're looking at something like almost 50 000 well over 50 000 gallons yes gasoline that 60 000 gallons close to 60 000 gallons yes within this short period and and well I mean that's just amazing to me now are you just finding this out isn't there some kind of regular reporting whenever yes doesn't the isn't the navy or somebody obligated to report whenever a spill occurs absolutely absolutely governor but that's the problem the department of health is only receiving the reports in so far as the navy reports them but from what we've seen the navy has not been quick in reporting especially with the may 6 because in February that's when they were having the contested case hearing on whether or not the department of health should grant a permit so that the navy can continue its operations at red hill and so that in order to do it in order to for the navy to have the operations there needs to be a permit from the department of health there is now this is actually the first time prior to that there was no requirement for a permit so now they have to now they have to seek approval in order to operate however they are able you know previously now they're shut down but previously they were able to operate pending the granting of the permit well in fact let's discuss that because we have a viewer question and that's the question okay and basically this was whether any previous permits granted and if so in the department of health who who who had the bad record I mean was this a case of up until say 2014 and present day was the situation at red hill a case of poor reporting no regulation or poor regulation I mean wasn't the department of health of the authorities shouldn't they have been monitoring the situation yeah absolutely I would say all three poor reporting you know poor regulating and and no need for a permit until recently so and because it was declassified I mean it was declassified or it was classified you mentioned yes exactly but then when it's classified what exactly does that mean I mean does that mean that the you can't get regulated you can't know anything about it or or or you can't tell anything about it you can tell yes I tell you what we are going to take a short break soon right about now and then this that seemed like a really important question which will take some time to answer so hello my name is mark schlau I am the host of think tech Hawaii's law across the sea program my program comes on every other Monday one o'clock and we talk about a lot of different subjects all of them law related in some way either life or practice and I try to have a diversity of guests that can talk about different topics of interest so please join us think tech Hawaii law across the sea program every other Monday one o'clock in the afternoon allah I'm prince dice the host of the prince of investment the financial literacy and business show that comes to you live every other Thursday at 4 p.m Hawaii time make sure you subscribe to us on youtube and wherever you can catch podcasts I'll see you there welcome back to this very important show this afternoon with melody aduha who is the democratic activist the de facto head of the trans farce the democratic party is concerned regarding the issue of red hill and actually a long time whistleblower in a sense public whistleblower on this issue now wasn't you know that okay so the department of health goes in and regulates this at the moment there's a one of the questions coming in from a listener is what is the department of health or is the department of health aware of the apparently the department of defenses the federal department of defense is past record of of poorly protecting communities with portable water supplies or just poor record performing and was this ever known I mean was this something that that the local authorities are aware of I mean do they or is that true I mean I don't know what if the statement is correct it means fame is called in so does the department of defense have a poor record of reporting and protecting portable water reporting any entry to it governor that is definitely true I think the reporting has been slow and not forthcoming and you know we've we've we've we've filed a notice of intent in the federal court to file a rickra lawsuit and when I say we you know I am one of the potential plaintiffs because you've got a 90 day notice and we're coming up to the 90 day notice in which will give us then the opportunity to file the lawsuit under rickra which is resource conservation and recovery act and it's dealing with hazardous waste and it's based on how the red hill has operated and how it's taken care of the leaks or are not taking care of the leaks and not done the preventive preventative measures in which it was supposed to for example during the contested case hearing lots of evidence came out that these tanks being that they're 80 years old some of them have not been tested not been tested as to you know holding it's doing being able to handle that much fuel which each tank holds 12.5 million gallons of fuel so those tanks should be tested on a regular basis some of them have not been tested for 20 years 30 years 40 years incredible yes and these tanks when they were built in the 1940s the steel lining or the steel part of the tank was only constructed with a quarter inch thickness of steel and then it's in case between two and four feet maybe more of porous concrete and so over the years that steel has corroded it has deteriorated and there are the concrete if it's porous must be must be full of fuel that or I would think yes something that is causing more of the corrosion between the concrete and the steel that the steel itself now could be at the very thinnest part as thin as the side or the thickness of a dime the side of a dime now and you're dealing with 12.5 million gallons yes so that's a lot of pressure and given that there's no way to monitor in between the cement and the steel the only way you can check for this deterioration is from the interior and that means someone would have to go in like on a scaffold and that's very like I said 250 feet tall and look an eyeball and basically check to see from the inside of the tank whether the corrosion that began in the outside of the tank is coming through and causing causing you know gaps or leaks you know that's that's incredible so I mean I'm here just you know stunned by that statement and why why doesn't this is another viewer question what you know because there are other communities that face the same situation yes that's happening here why doesn't the somebody require the Department of Defense to keep a national inventory of what's happening to their to fuel storage like this that may be contaminating contaminating the environment or there should be a national standard because we know and can't catch up I believe in Manchester Washington they have similar tanks built in and for world war two and those tanks were shuttered and they were rebuilt above ground so you can check when there's leaks and deterioration in the tank itself and of course they have that the Navy has done a miliation a remediation yes of other areas where they store fuel yes exactly and the other one is in North Carolina Camp Lejeune also that's not Navy though that's Marine however similar underground tanks were then shuttered and above ground tanks were erected now why would they do it there in which it probably was not affecting a sole source aquifer like it is here and here we are with those 20 tanks albeit I believe only 18 are operational and we're over a sole source aquifer with only a depth of 100 feet from the bottom of the tank and the top of the aquifer or the groundwater and and we are or that is Red Hill is the largest largest collection of diesel fuel and JP five JPA which is jet fuel which is the highest most toxic high in octane because it's for the fighter pilots fighter jets and yet uh we're not well let's get into let's get into that they uh you know like worst case scenario worst case scenario okay because uh you know I've heard now that the department the water uh what is it that's called not water department water water supply the water water supply basically stopped stop using water from some of those wells for the general public right what's the worst case scenario what would happen if these the fuel uh leaked down into the off would that mean that essentially our water supply would not be usable or I mean what what does it mean for the people of the island yeah absolutely that's that's what would happen and that's why Ernie Lau and Irwin Kowata closed down the Halawa well and the Halawa shaft and the IEA shaft because they are afraid we they used to example that the Red Hill well which the Navy has it's it's taking water out of the same cup or the same aquifer so what they are draining are you know extracting it's the same thing that we would be or the board of water supply would be extracting and there is a risk that that plume from the Red Hill well will migrate and if it migrates into the board of water supplies Halawa well and Halawa shaft and IEA shaft then yes that will contaminate it would contaminate the board of water supply or if you know from Moanalua to Hawaii that is the risk and it's as my understanding of the aquifer is that that water can't be just replaced overnight I mean it's not like you turn on a faucet and turn I mean this is water that's accumulated over years right exactly I don't I it's irreplaceable I I don't see how it could be replaced and we've seen the Navy attempting to have their Navy divers go into the Red Hill well and extract that you know their contaminates are the petroleum that's skimming the top but you really you really can't and I think that's really concerning it's the same thing now when they're trying to flush out the pipes and flush out the homes we've got 9000 military homes and some civilian homes that are affected and they are flushing it out with you need to tell me this thing is bad enough that they admit that that they would need to go and flush out individual homes yeah oh yeah pipes yes right now yes you know I don't want to throw I don't I don't want to you know do add to the fear mongering or sound like a fear monger about this whole thing but as I sit here and listen to you we're talking about the aquifer we're talking about the destruction of our water source and that's terrible enough but I can't help but thinking those are fuel tanks and if they're leaking what would happen if somebody was to throw a match up there and you had that much fuel that much combustible material that was evaporating I mean at least they I don't know what it's like up there but I would assume if it's like any other place where gasoline leaks there's a vapor that's very combustible that comes out I mean we could have in addition to the destruction of our water a huge explosion couldn't we I mean I I or do you know is this something yeah definitely because we're looking at 2.5 miles of pipeline three pipelines in an underground you know just two underground tunnels you know one I guess one is maintenance and the other one is is to watch those pipelines and that's how the supposedly from what we last told the November 20th 14,000 gallons leaked is because a golf cart or whatever it is that they used in the underground tunnel somehow ruptured the pipe and this was a pipe that had a mixture of petroleum and water in a fire suppression drain and from what I gathered from the news they military wasn't even aware that that petroleum water mixture was even there is it flammable is any of this highly highly I would say yes it is highly flammable if you were to go into the underground tunnel you'd have to be careful that nothing metal scrapes anything that might cause a spark what I mean what has anybody looked into in addition to the destruction of the aquifer which by the way would happen if there's so what would happen to this island if if what is it 18 tanks that blew up I mean why are we worried about the North Korea when you know shooting missiles at all places when we got a bunch of tanks like that which not only are toxic but flammable I would I'm I'm sorry I you know if I'm adding something out there that's not correct but as I sit here and listen to you I can't help but think that this is horrendous the the potential of what can happen to a waffle it's just yes absolutely absolutely and it's not just you know so far we're hearing it's human error or it could be an o-ring or it could be you know some somehow wrong valve there's also nature there's also the risk of earthquakes if an earthquake could happen then yes all of that fuel is is going to go and it can because it's gravity pull from what I gathered it can it can release 24 000 gallons of fuel a minute it's like you know you get a fire hydrant and it's gonna gush wow you know and I think about it you know the fuel floats on the top of water you know what I'm saying so when it burns for example if that was to happen it would be an inferno and and and and as well as the destruction you know unfortunately for this very interesting conversation we are out of time oh no and I know I know we've got to a time but I know the the last question is okay I guess we'll just tell us the Democratic party who some people have accused of being of getting soggy in its own age has come out and actually organized protests yes I guess this so direct action is that normal I mean what what this is as it is as serious enough that the party itself is not just talking about lobbying and going to going through the normal process but going out there and actually having protests at Red Hill than at Pearl Harbor at the rest is that is that happening oh yeah absolutely because but where can people go to get more information about helping you with that oh gosh that would be great uh they can email me my email is legislative priorities at gmail.com they can join the Democratic party and they call Democratic Party headquarters and get the information they can do that uh they can join the environmental caucus and and I do a lot of the emails and every time we have an event come up I try to get as many participants as possible but yeah this is something that's so large and we really need to get everyone involved everyone it can't be something that's just paperwork I mean it can't be something that we can just lobby it we've got everybody's involved if if you can just imagine if we did have a catastrophic release I mean everything that we know life as we know it's gonna change it's gonna change right now the military families have to and those that live on the barracks they have to drink water bottled water so what happens with their you know able to take a bath able to wash their dishes able to wash their clothes able to you take oral hygiene their whole their everything changes because of that why because their water is contaminated and it's contaminated because of red hill so this is what I want to say before we end is that look at the four D's all right I four go ahead go ahead you got the four D's okay aside from being a democrat okay first D drain the tanks second D D dismantle red hill third D decommission red hill fourth D decontaminate that's the four D's okay right now we're going a little bit backwards we're going decontaminate hopefully by flushing with this coal activated filter system which actually what it does I'm not even sure it can do what it's the Navy is purporting that it can do because it might be able to take away the smell and the odor but what about the contaminants itself and actually we need something stronger we need reverse osmosis we need to treat the petroleum like it is which is hazardous waste we have to separate it from the water we have to treat it contain it and put it in the hazardous waste um you know very disposal or burn it insinuate it but we can't just we can't just let it go down Halava stream well I hope I hope people go down to Pearl Harbor I hope a lot of people heard heard you this afternoon because I think your message is extremely important unfortunately we are up and I want to thank you so much for coming on talk story with John White and I hope that this uh and I wish you well uh and we all should get behind this very important issue I I hope everyone does we need a task force we need we need a hub we need a hub of information so we know what the DOH is doing we know what EPA is doing we know what the Navy is doing and there's a check and balance and make sure everybody is working together for the proper sense absolutely right and before and before Eric has a heart attack we want to thank everybody aloha everyone for joining us and thanking our guest this afternoon thank you governor thank you everyone very important issue aloha aloha