 Welcome back to breakfast on plus TV Africa. The two-day public hearings organized by the Senate as a prelude to an amendment of Nigeria's constitution kicked off yesterday. Surprisingly, the creation of state police, devolution of powers to state, and a fiscal phagealism featured prominently across the 12 venues nationwide. The two-day public hearings have been organized by the Senate Committee on Constitution Review. The hearings continue today and we'll like to find out if this would make a change or if it would be one of the multiple hearings that we have had in Nigeria. Joining us on the phone from Abuja is the co-convener of Center for Liberty, Ariyo Dari Atoye. Good morning, Mr. Atoye. Thanks for joining us. Good morning. Thanks for having me. So there's been a lot of talk really about constitution review, constitutional amendment. We're seeing different governors saying, let's go back to the constitution of 1963. There's just a lot about that. From your own point of view, how do you see it and what do you think is most important for us as a nation at this time? Well, I think constitutional reform or constitutional review is always an important exercise in the fear of the nation. However, I don't think the current leadership of the National Assembly and the National Assembly itself can muster the political will to do the needful. The current executive led by the president appears unwilling to accommodate robust reforms that can help to unbundle this country and unleash our potentials. Because you need a legal framework to unleash the potential of a nation and to address our challenges. People have been talking about restructuring, which I believe in 100% that should follow the pattern like the 1963 Republican constitution. But this president is unwilling to trade. And unfortunately, the National Assembly has given itself a reputation as the robust stamp of the executive. So this makes it a bit very difficult. So that's why I share the concern of those who said that this could be an exercise in fertility, or a ritual just to justify the allocation of money for this exercise that has become an affair of the National Assembly every four years. Like I said earlier, this is an important exercise that ordinarily should help us to mitigate our challenges at this trying time in the affair of our nation. This should be an opportunity for us to possibly get a brand new constitution, or possibly to reform the constitution to an extent that we're able to achieve restructuring. The current political actors have not demonstrated that way. That is our concern as a nation. It's the reason why I, as a president, did not submit a single memo to this conference. I deliberately refused to do this simply because this same National Assembly has refused to show commitment to the Electoral Reform Act that we have been pursuing. This same National Assembly started the process of reviewing the Electoral Amendment Act. They told us they're going to pass it in December 2020. They said they were going to pass it on before March 31, 2021. They refused to do so. And I don't think Nigerians can trust this same National Assembly to do or to give us a constitution that will address our concern. The National Assembly that is found wanting in Litu cannot be given much to do. So I'm sorry if I sound pessimistic. I'm sorry if I sound a bit on the other side, probably not having confidence in this National Assembly, but this is what this National Assembly has demonstrated over time. It's not my making. It's not the making of other Nigerians, but this National Assembly has not shown the will to amend this constitution to reflect the yearnings as aspirations of Nigerians. All right, Mr. Toei, let me quickly step in here. You know, you would continue with your thoughts. I'm asking the question in the same direction. You're not the only person. I listened to Professor Emeritus yesterday on a different platform and he shared similar thoughts and he said the National Assembly cannot be given the responsibility of amending the constitution that they are fully involved with. You know, it makes them judge and jury of a case that they are very, very involved with. But I want you to share why you think this is because of course, I believe a lot of Nigerians understand what is needed with regards to amending the constitution. You know, the state police, the restructuring and some of all those things. So what do you think might be the reasons you see this National Assembly as not very likely to agree to make these changes? The reason why I've expressed this statement is very clear to all Nigerians. There was nothing harmful about what the Southern governor said at the Asaba summit. There was nothing harmful about the community that was released as a result of that meeting. But this same leadership of the National Assembly led by Senator Ahmed Lawan and Speaker Guadalupe Miller came out after that summit to lamp on the outcome of that resolution by these governors. And when you looked at these outcomes, you were likely about what we're talking about today, constitutional review, the items that have been listed by the National Assembly itself. It means that they are not sincere about it. So when there is no sincerity of purpose, every other thing is an exercising futility. Nigerians must understand this ordinarily. Ordinarily, we should have demonstrated as a people to, you know, to demonstrate that a public will by biocupying this current process led by the National National. Nigerians should have both cut it. But again, people just let us give them benefit of it down. But for those of us who have analyzed and review the action of the current National Assembly, you will know, go and check all these statements attributed to the president of the Senate. Go and check the statement attributed to the speaker of the House of Representatives. Go and check the body language and statement, I mean attributed to the president of the Republic of Nigeria. A combination of these three key leaders who are very, very key in terms of amending this constitution and getting it assented after it has gone through the legal framework of the passage of at least in the 425 states of the federation for validation, you will see that there is no sincere commitment. Ordinarily, ordinarily, this will have been an opportunity for this National Assembly to give Nigerians a path to hope in a trying time like this. But in period where things are so difficult and challenging for Nigerians, where people are looking for solution, this is a very good opportunity for the administration of January and the National Assembly. But they are not committed, it's not rhetoric, it's not a knee-jerk approach. You see, people have seen what they did and said during when it was convenient for them. People have analyzed them in and out. They have not shown any commitment to a nation that works. They are not interested, that is the truth. And Nigerians should not be, she should take it for a ride simply because, let me also say this, and I will say it anywhere, that there is always money allocated for this exercise every four years. And you must justify why this money should be spent. It is all about that. So you're saying, are you basically saying that you agree with Afa Babilalawani says, this constitutional review is a waste of time and energy? My sister, let me tell you something very simple. I did finish not a waste of time and energy. What they ought to have done was first to tell Nigerians that we're bringing a consultant or consultants together to review all the documents that they submitted in the last 10 years. Then after reviewing those documents, then they will produce a single document and make these documents available to Nigerians that these are likely our recommendation in terms of constitutional review. Then Nigerians will look at this document, they will say, yes, this National Assembly is correct, but amend this area. That should have been the process. Not again telling Nigerians to be submitted recommendations. No, Nigerians have done that consistently since 1999 before 1999. So the only thing that will show a good faith on the part of this National Assembly is to collate all these documents together, work with consultants and a technical team or a joint committee to review and give us provisions that they consider that they want to review in the 90s. So why do you think that these things are not being done? I mean, of course, we've had other similar exercises like this. There was a national confab 2014. Why do you think that the present government did not think in a direction to basically implement those or take a look at, take a review of all the other resolutions and begin to find ways to implement them rather than constitute another one? The problem is likely due to our fourth line, sectional interest, political interest and all of that. The 2014 conference and the recommendation, that document contained that recommendation is still most important piece of document we have in Nigeria today. They are not committed simply because this president is sectionally minded. And I'm also worried, let me say this for the first time, and I'm not also happy with the man who even convened the 2014 conference from President Jonathan. President Jonathan should have made this an advocacy in terms of implementing this. Why do you have to convene the conference and there is a document and you are working with this current administration going on air and for this administration? And now there is at the period in time like this, you cannot write to the national assembly to reconsider the 2014 conference instead of going through another review. Ordinarily, President Jonathan should have been bold enough to do that and give Nigerians the benefit of the doubt. So they are not committed. Some of the members of the ruling political elite. Some of them because of sectional interest. They don't want to restructure it. People are looking at this in Nigeria as a country that should be manipulated to serve individual and sectional interests. That is exactly the problem. Our, what do you call it? Footlines are becoming a godly and it is consuming us as a people. So it's very important that we look at these things and we are not being pessimistic or not because we just want to go against what the National Assembly is doing. No, we want this thing to be done in good faith. We want sincerity of purpose. We want the National Assembly to indeed believe in Nigeria and Nigeria. It's not because we just want to antagonize or to criticize the government. All right. Other decisions have done this successfully. Is there any other way around this? If you have zero faith in the National Assembly, is there any other way that this can be achieved? That's one. And then also, look at the numbers because there's also been certain caucuses in the National Assembly who have supported the resolutions by the Southern governors. So is there also a possibility that there might be enough numbers in the National Assembly that might be able to push for this? Let me say in clear terms, the only way or there are two ways to it, number one is for the current leadership to show that they are sincerely committed on their own and say that we know that Nigerians are worried about our comments on the past, our attitude to nation beauty. We want to show that indeed we are committed to this process. So after collating your view, these and these and the things we are going to do and quickly produce a document that we indeed show indeed that they are committed to restructuring significant devolution of power which is just a subset of restructuring and other things that Nigerians are actually yearning for. But what I think is actually going to be the main part for Nigerians to know is that it's for us to prevail on this National Assembly to pass the Electoral Act amendment and ensure that we have electronic transmission of results. Now, our clear hope to nation building and a new electoral, I mean, new constitutional review is a new leadership in 2023. The current leadership cannot give us in Nigeria that is well restructured. So Nigeria's must not invest in the 2023 general elections and produce lawmakers and a president that will come and restructure Nigeria and give us a nation that works. The current leadership and actors cannot do it. They must convince us they can do it. But if Nigerians want to have a pathway out of this, it's for us to insist that the National Assembly give us a new electoral amendment that is transparent, open and electronic driven. After that, Nigerians would demonstrate the political, I mean, the electoral will through their term to elect leaders that will start from 2023, May 29, commence the process of reviewing our constitution and probably giving us a national conference of sort that will amunize, not a national conference that will come and do presentation, but a small conference that will accommodate all the recommendation and work on that and give the National Assembly document to implement. That is just the only way out of- Thank you very much. Mr. Ariyo Dari Aktoye, co-convener of the Center for Liberty, joining us from Abuja. Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts on the constitutional review. Thank you for having me. Have a great day. All right, stay with us. Of course, we still have a little bit more to share with you on the breakfast this morning. Earlier, we spoke about suspects that were paraded by the police, who of course Nigerians have spoken out against and identified a few of them, claiming that these persons are innocent who will be joined right after the short break by a guest. To quickly share his thoughts on these latest incidents, we'll be back.