 Hi, and welcome to Life in the Law. I'm Marianne Sasaki. I'm delighted today to have one of the finest legal minds in Hawaii with me. I'm so lucky to have them. Miles Brina, welcome Miles. Pleasure to be here. Thank you for the paid comment. No, it's totally... Many a person has told me they thought you had to find one of the finest legal minds in the county. So I'll limit it to the county. There you go. I want them to walk with me. So I'm so glad you're here, and I know you have a very busy schedule and you're in court all the time. I enjoy coming to these sessions with you. Thank you. So I asked Miles to talk about the Bundy case. If anybody's not familiar with the Bundy case, there was a group of armed men. How many? I think it was 11 armed men who took over the Oregon Malheur National Wildlife Refuge for 41 days, and they were armed, and they were openly occupying government territory. And you would think something bad would happen if that... Well, someone was killed ultimately. No, somebody was killed, yeah. But I mean, you would think, oh, you shouldn't really be standing around government land with an open fire armed defying the government. The jury found them innocent. The right jury, the right defendants, right in the circumstance. Yeah, I want you to explain, do you think that... Well, firstly, do you think the U.S. attorney made... Well, you do think it was. Well, I think the U.S. attorney's office made a grave error. They decided to overcharge the case. And by that I mean, they were charged with criminal trespass. That's because of a criminal conspiracy to criminally impede access to the Wildlife Reserve, which is interesting, because the reserve was created by Theodore Roosevelt, I think, in 1908. And it's rather an isolated area. There aren't a lot of people. It's just basically a nature preserve, which, by its very definition, hardly anyone's there. Only a few people that work for the government that would maintain security... Right. It's a wild little like preserve. The middle of nowhere. Yeah, it's in Oregon, yeah. So you have property middle of nowhere. It's sort of ironic that the government charged the conspiracy to impede access by the employees. What they should have charged was, or kept that charge, but had a lesser included criminal trespass, which is a misdemeanor. But there was never on the table. And the individuals that occupied the Wildlife Reserve were being charged with felonies. They were also the same individuals who were Second Amendment advocates. Right, right. And they felt very... Patriots. They're called themselves Patriots, the Patriots. Part of this is a variation of the Sagebrush Revolution in the 70s and 80s. Right. And it's kind of carryover that now has kind of morphed into a Second Amendment sovereign citizen movement that's spread across the country. But this is what I don't understand. I don't understand if they all agreed to go to this wildlife refuge with guns. How can there not be a conspiracy? I mean, what do you need for... Well, the government charged conspiracy to impede the employees getting access to the refuge. Okay. And according to what I've read, and I listened to a podcast from the defense attorney after the verdict came back, quitting his clients, the government never issued an actual judicial order instructing the 41 people who occupy the refuge to vacate. Right. Instead, they surrounded the refuge and essentially created a double barricade. You have people armed that are inside that are not coming out and they're not necessarily impeding anyone. Right. And then the government surrounding them. And it took on more of a military operation. Right. They didn't want to have that Waco Texas. And Waco Texas. They didn't want to have that kind of standoff. Which branched avidians and so on. So they were very sensitive to that. They didn't want anyone getting shot, which still someone did get shot and killed. Plus, the government's well aware that part of the United States, Oregon and Northwestern part of the United States, there's a strong sovereign citizen movement. There's a very, very strong right-wing second amendment movement. And it kind of morphed into a cause celebrate that didn't have to be a cause had it been handled differently by the government. As I said, the critical issue for the occupiers was protesting how the federal government controls access to federal lands. Right. Well, it started out though that they were protesting ranchers who had access to federal land and I guess burned something down. But a different area. Right, right, right. That's how it began. Right. And Bundy and his group went there in support of them. But they also went there to express their second amendment rights to carry arms openly. They weren't concealed arms. No, no, no. They were displaying them openly. Yes, that's right. Which is fully their right. Had they been convicted of felony, and this was kind of foolish, the government drove essentially this case forward. Charging a felony caused all these people to go to trial. Had they offered a misdemeanor, they could have kept their license to have the firearms and it wouldn't have been a second amendment issue. So what they had was individuals protesting as a variation from the 70s and 80s, the sagebrush movement. Right. They'd now morphed into more of a national statement about us versus the government. Right. David versus Goliath kind of scenario. And you append to that this issue of second amendment. And that gets everyone going. Especially in light of our present political environment. It gets me going. I'll tell you that. Well, it's the same nonsense that the Trump campaign has been pushing that Clinton is anti-second amendment, which is ludicrous. She's never been anti-second amendment. She's been anti letting people have guns without proper checks and proper protocols. Right. She's actually pretty centrist, I think, with respect to guns. She's far to the right of me anyway. Myself. Myself. I would prefer no guns. Right. I know. That's an idea whose time has come and gone apparently. But you know, it's funny. This case took me, it really moved me because it really expressed to me the jury nullification of the case, which that's what I view it as a jury nullification. And I don't disagree with it. My first reaction was jury nullification. But when you talk to or listen to the defense attorneys, their take on their own case, they don't see it as jury nullification. They saw it as clear cut from the very beginning. This was the result that they expected to get given the community that had occurred in the position of the Bundy's and the other ranchers and the sympathy they had in the community. They always intended to go this direction. Right. Well, I didn't see that. I didn't see the interview with the defense attorney. But, you know, what I read was that they actually didn't have, originally they didn't have the sympathy of the local people. But over the course of time, they gained the sympathy of the local people. But I... Well, two things happen. Okay. Long-term incarceration of the defendants and getting them out on bail and kind of desensitizing the community to their plight, they became the focus of the community that they're still in custody over this issue. The second was the overcharging of the case, the high bail and so on. Why did they do that? Do you think the government... The government's extremely sensitive to white supremacy movements. They're sensitive to successionist movements. And they want to... This was a high-profile case, too. Precisely. Plus, there's been a number of individuals associated with similar movements from that part of the country that have involved an actual armed action against the government. So an overabundance of caution, they decide to throw... put all their eggs into one basket and not compromise, not offer an opportunity for these people to avoid getting convicted. Right. But don't you think this... I think this case is emblematic of this anxiety of a certain segment of the United States, a certain white segment of the United States. I was thinking it's almost like a divided society where there's a working class or a non-elite class who has certain values and who don't trust the government and they're very disgruntled. And then there's this elite meritocratic portion who are doing well, who are faring well in the economy, who, you know, it just... Wasn't this what Trump's trying to exploit? Right. He's part of the 1%. Right. That's amazing. However his taxes play out and whether he has the money, he's had the ability to be in that 1% category. Right. Did you ever doubt his taxes? I never did. I assumed he didn't pay any taxes. He was a businessman. I mean, I'm a business lawyer. If you don't have to pay them, you don't pay them. It's the clearest day. It's how we... Well, there's certain issues about how... Well, it's true he pushed the envelope, apparently, with respect to the loophole use. Right. Right. And then amateurizing his losses over the 18-year period. But he's now a white working class hero, although he... Nobody's managed to characterize himself as, you know, the hero of the unrepresented, the silent majority that Nixon often talked about. Right. But he's... He marginalizes his own party. Or I should say he marginalizes his own campaign by focusing on people that are angry, pissed off. You said identified as, you know, white males in a certain category. Right. Right. It's interesting the people that still support him. Even the women that still support him still is rather strange. I think the women that support him are fascinating. I can never pass up an interview with a woman that supports Trump. You know... A little blonde and too much makeup? Yeah, that's usually that. Or a little frumpy sometimes. But, you know, they're responding to this... And, you know, I can understand why they feel that there's this cabal in Washington, you know, that controls everything and there's no actual choice. Donald Trump participated. Their interview is going back to the late 80s, 90s, all the way up to the present, where he's touting his connection to the Clinton's effect. He was bragging that he's more of, you know, a sexual provocateur than the former president. Bill Clinton. Yeah, and the Clinton's were the pictures of Clinton's at his wedding and he donated to Hillary Clinton's senatorial campaign. Yeah, so it's really... The man has no shame. And he is an opportunist. And it's kind of frightening because he doesn't seem to realize what he's unleashing. The notion that he's not going to give credence to the election, whatever happens one way or the other, that he's waiting to keep us all on suspense, that this mentality, the manipulation, or still, he's like a carny... Like a PT Barnum. A bit like that because he's still promoting his product. I mean, here is on the eve of the election, he opens his hotel in the former chamber of the U.S. Department of Commerce building in D.C. I used to work in D.C. I've been in that building many times. It's kind of regretful that it's now going to be a Trump hotel. I really never thought I would witness this seamless merging of capitalism and politics and U.S.... You know, capitalism and U.S. politics always hand in hand for the beginning, really. You know, we're talking about white landowners who developed the system. There was always a place for capitalism in the system. So although they probably was no capitalism when they started, right? This notion that Hillary shouldn't be trusted, I still don't understand the public concern over emails. I could care less. And the majority of people that really think about the emails, the fact she had a private email service, and so forth, and the recent release by the FBI of additional emails... Well, you know, I think it's emblematic of her need for secrecy. And that worries me in a president. I mean, you so need secrecy that you... My husband is an IT guy, and he's like, she had a server in her house. That's like really going in great lengths. But look at the last 25 years. The Clintons have been the punching bag for the right wing, you know, for the Republicans for 25 years. So whatever, I mean, going back to the travel gate, they're in office for less than six months. He's already been accused of sexual misconduct when he was governor. The Jennifer Flowers case, you know, promoting that across the country, sending out notices and newspapers, ran it for weeks on end if you've ever been sexually assaulted by a governor. Oh yeah, they were looking for people. I remember it well. They're trolling, trolling for cases. At the same time, going after Hillary or what was travel gate and continuing through the entire eight year of his presidency. Right, she's called it a vast right wing conspiracy and it actually was a vast right wing conspiracy. I believe her. Yes, yes. So I'm going to take a quick break. Some of the people that were part of that vast right wing conspiracy are now rejecting Trump and reluctantly supporting her. Right, that's funny. That's how we're on it. I know, I know. We're going to take a quick break and we'll come back and we'll talk about the dire straits of the Republican Party. It couldn't happen to a nice party. Aloha everybody. My name is Mark Shklav. I'd like you to join me for my program, Law Across the Sea on thinktechhawaii.com. Aloha. Thank you for watching Think Tech. I'm Grace Chang, the new host for Global Connections. You can find me here live every Thursday at 1 p.m. where we'll be talking to people around the islands or visiting the islands who are connected in various aspects of global affairs. So please tune in and Aloha and thanks for watching. Aloha. I am Reg Baker and I am the host of Business in Hawaii with Reg Baker. We broadcast live every Thursday from 2 to 2.30 in the Think Tech studios in downtown Alululu. We highlight successful stories about businesses and individuals and learn their secrets to success. I hope you can join us on our next show on Thursday at 2 o'clock. Until then, Aloha. Hi, you're watching Life in the Low. I'm with legal scholar Miles Breiner who is making some points that I thought were better made on camera, off camera to me. We're talking about Hillary. Yes, we're talking about Hillary's emails. I can't be in the minority. I really, excuse me, I don't care about her emails. I think Bernie Sanders had enough of the emails. Don't you think the Democratic National Committee like this thing that just came out with Donna Brazil giving her questions and Debbie Wasserman Schultz with her finger on the scale, don't you think that that's problematic? No. I do. I'm a super liberal. I think it's problematic of our political system. That that's the way it works. It didn't work that way for Bernie Sanders, though. Bernie alienates on his own. You can't be screaming on the socialist and want to... Right, then have the structure of the DNC have your back. Exactly. But he managed to raise issues that are still relevant. Right. Oh, he did a good job. Universal free education. Yeah. I can support that. I mean, look at the Netherlands where they have universal education. The highest literacy in the world. They give you no pause whatsoever. They don't. Oh, that's... I see much worse. Oh, you see much worse? Well, maybe I'm very sheltered. I worked on Capitol Hill for five years as a speech writer on the House side and on the Senate side. And I saw much worse from both sides of the program. Well, I mean, that might be so, but that doesn't mean, you know... There's pales in comparison to other things I've seen. Well, I am sure it does, but that doesn't make it right. Alexander Hayne declaring that he's in charge? That was the greatest minute. That was like the greatest minute of succession gossip ever. Or Jerry Ford, you know, exonerating Nixon. Right, right, right. But... Yeah, well, but I still... Someone should have gone to jail. It should have been Nixon. Well, yes, absolutely. We managed to retool his image. So now historically, he was a great president because of what he did internationally. Then if you remember Nixon... You have to... As long as there are those of us alive who still remember Richard Nixon... My number came up for the draft and I was already prepared to split. I was living in Michigan and I was going to cross the border to Canada and about two or three weeks later, the draft was canceled. Really? Wow. I was not going to go serve. No, no, no. But I mean, Richard Nixon was a devious... I was prepared to immigrate to Israel and volunteer to go into the IDF, but I would not go to the IDF. The Mossad for you. The elite force only. My niece is a sniper in the Israeli army. Is she? I think everybody should do government service. I think Israel has it right. I don't know that everyone should go into the army for what is it? No, it's some form of government service. Yes, some form of government service. Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. And it makes you feel a part of the government. I mean, I hate to say kids today, but I know a whole host of 20-year-olds that feel like this has nothing to do with me. I know an 18-year-old just right off to college. The greatest thing you can do is vote, right? It's one of your most significant... It's your most significant power as a citizen. I know. I've come full circle, because I endorse the notion of government service in some form as a vehicle for citizenship, for fully enfranchised citizenship. Right. The medical, the national health care, free education through graduate school, from K through high school through college and graduate school. We benefit from that. Right. Look into Sweden. Sweden, the Netherlands. Yeah, really. Israel. Right. Right. So, yeah, so I definitely think it would give the youth more of a sense of participation and actually constructing what exists. They don't feel that. They did a little with Obama, actually. Obama made people feel that way, that their voice was really going to be heard and their needs were going to be addressed. But he didn't do it actually. If Michelle had run, would you vote for her? Oh, I vote for her. She's like phenomenal. Yeah, she is. You know, President Obama made a speech yesterday in which he said that Michelle Obama was his equal. She was his superior. And I kind of feel like that's true, because, you know, I went to Harvard Law School, right? And if you're a black woman and you got into Harvard Law School and it was whatever, 1990 or whenever she got in, that is one smart woman. That is a woman that excelled on every plane that she could possibly excel on. Because I went during that period too and it was still incredibly closed, incredibly wide, incredibly averse to different opinions. So I mean, I give her a lot of credit. I really, really do. I don't think she'd run though, do you? No. She's too smart to run. She's like, why do I need this aggravation? I can do other things. She can do more as a private citizen, especially as a former First Lady. Well, what do you think about the situation with the Supreme Court and the Senate refusing to advise on consent? It's outrageous. It is outrageous. I mean, we have someone, Eric Garland's been nominated. They should vote on it one way or the other and we move forward. To hold it up like this all this time is really inappropriate. Okay, I'm going to explain to the audience how the nominations of Supreme Court Justice's work. The executive branch, the president, selects a candidate and he, with the advice and consent of the candidate, that person is appointed, is appointed the right word? Appointed to justice? Correct. Okay. Is appointed to justice. Now, currently the Senate is Stonewall, well, so that's my opinion. The Senate is saying, because it's the very last months of President Obama's presidency, that he's a lame duck, that they don't have to advise and consent because they're going to be a new president. But there's no rule. This isn't a rule. They made this up. Because Republicans are the majority in the Senate side, they can slow the entire process down. Right. That's what they did. Can you imagine Donald Trump appointing someone to the Supreme Court? No. Keep in mind that he attacked a Latino judge. I know. It was born in Ohio. Born in Ohio. I don't think, honestly, I don't think Donald Trump understands how the Supreme Court works and what it does and has ever read an opinion, or I really don't think so. Other than a book that was ghost written for him, his autobiography, The Deal, The Art of the Deal. I don't think he's read anything else. Yeah, I don't think he understands the mechanics of the court. I think he would just appoint people that he wanted to give some kind of plum, plum favoritism toward or whatever. But I think it'll be interesting to see who Hillary Clinton appoints, because President Clinton, Bill Clinton, appointed Nadine Ginsberg, who's like, well, I love her, one of the greatest. And I wonder if Hillary's going to go that liberal. She's going to go that left. Because Merrick Garland is. I'm hoping she appoints someone other than Merrick Garland. Garland was a compromise. Yeah. Because he is certainly conservative. His opinions, they're available to read online, are not liberal opinion. No, they're not. They're pro-government. I think he's a register Republican. I think he's a Republican, yeah. I'm hoping he'll be a female. Yeah, me too. I mean, I think it's time that the court had a majority of females. That would be a majority, right? Correct. But getting back to Donald Trump, I read the other day that a writer described him as the minotaur at the end of the maze. Donald Trump? As the bullheaded minotaur at the end of the maze. Oh, God, that's funny. That's interesting. Which is some respects he is. He's... He has no answer except believe in me, which was more reminiscent of Mussolini. Well, I did a show on that. Another... A long... Several months ago, before everybody started making these analogies, that what he was really representing was fascism, what he was advocating in terms of uniting the country, isolationism with trade, suspicion of the foreign. It's really... Focusing on himself. I mean, it's a cult of personality. Because everything comes... I can fix this. So when he talks not about we can do this, but only I can do this, you're creating the cult of personality, which is typical of Hitler, Mussolini, just about every dictator, you know, creates the illusion that only they have the answers. Right. Whatever those answers are. Right. To me, it was so clear. I mean, the comparison was so vivid. And you know, I remember saying... So why do so many people... How did it happen in the first place? Give it his behavior and things he said that the percentage points between Clinton and Trump, in my mind, should be vast. I agree. Instead, it's collapsing, getting closer and closer. It's getting closer because of the... Comey, James Comey. I think... Which is outrageous. I think we... Yes, I don't know how... We may not have said it on camera. We certainly said Dwarf Kramel, but yeah, James Comey's actions, releasing news about emails that he has no idea the content... They were never reviewed. Which he has no idea of the content. I think it would be the right answer. When they are finally reviewed, they may have nothing to do with anything. They may have nothing. Right. I remember they were on the email between former congressman Wainer and his wife. Right. Whom Abedin, that's right. And you know... Pity her. I pity her, but you know, I have to tell you, Anthony Meena broke my heart, man. I was such a supporter of his, but I thought he was the greatest legislator. And this... And you supported him when he... After the... After the first scandal, I supported him for mayor. Right. After the second scandal... And then he did it again. Yeah, no, no. That's such a self-destructive element in his personality. Right, right. It's not even what... You know, well, what he's doing is offensive, very offensive, but the fact that he has no self-control whatsoever, I mean, you don't want that in a leader, that's... That's one thing that's great about Obama. He's like the epitome of self-control. I don't think I've ever seen a more self-control person. It also helped that his mother-in-law lived at the White House for the last eight years. Right. Oh well. Which is a smart move. Because of all the racist implications associated with being African-American, the hidden agenda that a lot of non-African-Americans feel toward blacks in general. So to have his wife present, his mother-in-law there, appearing to be completely above board in all of his contacts, private and official. Right. But he has no choice. He is. I think he really is. I think... I think in hindsight he's going to be viewed as a great president. I don't think people realize now... I'm a little bit disgruntled with him because he's not liberal enough, but I think when people look back on his... We've all felt that from the very beginning. Right. From his first year in office in 2008, the feeling was, why can't you be more aggressive? But he was doing... But I like the work he's done. I'm pretty proud of the work he's done. He's done good work. He's tried to heal. I'm going to end on that very nice note. He's trying to heal. That's what we have to do. We have to heal the country, Miles. Exactly. The country is... It's divisive. Divided, yes. So you've been watching Life in the Law with Marion Sasaki and Miles Briner on Think Tech Hawaii. Join us every week, one to one-thirty. Thank you, Miles, so much. Thank you. It was so fun. Always so fun.