 This is Stink Tech Hawaii, Community Matters here. And welcome again to Energy Wednesday, our flagship operation here for energy. I'm Sharon Moriwaki with the Hawaii Energy Policy Forum and with me, co-host, our super attorney here from Watanabe, our partner and former consumer advocate, Jeff Watanabe, we're co-hosting. Jeff Ono. What did I? Oh, sorry. Jeff Ono, sorry about that. Jeff Ono, we're co-hosting the last of our series on Bioenergy and we'd like to pull that on for a little bit because we have Shannon Tauganan today. And she's from Hawaii Electric. The spokesperson is going to tell us about a couple of programs at HECO. Yeah. The first one we want to bring up is yesterday we launched our request for proposals for pretty much the largest amount of renewable energy, variable renewable energy projects ever for the wine electric company. So we're asking for proposals for projects with 220 megawatts on Oahu, 60 megawatts for Maui, and 20 megawatts for Hawaii Island. So we're really excited about that. We want people to go to our website and check out all the information that we have regarding the request for proposals. So what's all involved and what's the timeline? Well, they have our qualifying proposals maybe submitted through April 30th, 2018. So I think the best thing we can say is to go to the website. So it's hawainoelectric.com slash competitive bidding. And there you'll have pretty much all the information you'll need. There's a lot of, you know, there's the transmittal letters, so on and so forth. So everything they need to know as far as how to qualify, what the projects need to entail, it can, you can include energy storage with your project. So I think that's, you know, really enticing part of the proposal. So it just went out yesterday? Yeah. Just yesterday. That's good. Well, very good. And anything else you want to report? Or unless Jeff has any questions about these. Well, we're excited about this. These are big projects. And we're also waiting for the firm dispatchable RFP, which should come out shortly. Yeah. So this is for variable, renewable projects. And when is the deadline for your decision-making or is that just open until, you know, I don't know exactly, but the proposals need to be submitted by April. And then after that, there'll be a time when they're reviewed and projects, nothing on projects when they would come online or when it was actually. I don't have anything like that. But you know, this is very, you know, timely. We just launched yesterday. They filed before we began the process yesterday. You can come back, tell us where you are. April. May. And then we have an issue that we wanted to get out into the public. We had a lot of scam calls to our customers for Hawaiian Electric, Maui Electric, Hawaii Electric Light just in the past few days. So Friday, we really got the word out. Some customers were getting as many as 10 calls. Really? Yeah, from scam artists. So we just want people to know that. What kinds of things were coming in? Well, first of all, they're telling people that they're late with their payments, that they have to pay up, to go to the nearest drug store to get one of those prepaid cards. We would never ask our customers to pay with prepaid debit cards. That's just not what we do. So we just wanted to get the word out, let people know that if you get a call like that, just hang up and call the number that's printed on your bill, the customer service line. Call that number, ask whether your account, verify. Most times, it's just really a prank and it's random and people don't know anything about your account. So just call to confirm that it's a prank call. And just report that it's happening so that we're aware. So is that number on your bill? Is that where they should call and also report? Definitely. Definitely. Our customer service line. And then we also just want to let people know that they can also visit our website, and that is hawainoelectric.com, hawaioelectric.com, hawaioelectriclight.com, slash.scam. And then that's about it. Any other questions for Shannon? No. I just want to say if my mom is watching, please take note. Yeah. Please just hang out. You want to say any more about how to prevent getting scammed? Well, I think, so talk in number two. We really just want people to hang up and then do not call the number on the caller ID because they have, they're very sophisticated and it'll show Hiko, Miko, or Helco, but that's not the correct number. You'll just be calling the scammers back. So we just want to make sure that you're protected and that you call the right numbers when you get these types of calls. So do not call the number back. Yeah. Do not call the number back. Okay. You heard that here. Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much for having me. To come back and let us know about your bids coming in, about any other projects you have. Okay. Thank you. Thanks for coming. Thanks, Shannon. I appreciate the time. Okay. This is Stink Tech, Hawaii, raising public awareness. I just walked by and I said, what's happening, guys? They told me they were making music. Match Day is no ordinary day. The pitch, hallowed ground for players and supporters alike, excitement builds, game plans are made with responsibility in mind, celebrations are underway, ready for kick-off, MLS clubs and our supporters rise to the challenge. We make responsible decisions while we cheer on our heroes and toast their success. Your Match Day experience, if you drink, never drive. I'm DeSoto Brown, the co-host of Human Humane Architecture, which is seen on Think Tech, Hawaii every other Tuesday at 4 p.m. And with the show's host, Martin Desbang, we discuss architecture here in the Hawaiian Islands and how it not only affects the way we live, but other aspects of our life, not only here in Hawaii, but internationally as well. So join us for Human Humane Architecture every other Tuesday at 4 p.m. on Think Tech, Hawaii. Aloha. My name is Mark Shklav. I'm the host of Think Tech, Hawaii's Law Across the Sea. Law Across the Sea comes on every other Monday at 11 a.m. Please join us. I like to bring in guests that talk about all types of things that come across the sea to Hawaii. Not just law, love, people, ideas, history. Please join us for Law Across the Sea. Well, thank you. We're back. We're back. And we're lucky today to have two guests from Hawaii Gas. To my left, we have Aaron Kirk. He's the vice president of marketing and business development. And next to him is Mr. Rich DeGarmo. He is the director of projects. And today we're going to be talking about renewable gas and biogas to keep with our theme of biofuels for the month of February. So let me start with Aaron. Can you help us by defining renewable gas and biogas? Sure, sure. It's good to be here. Thanks for having us. Renewable natural gas is biogas that's captured from renewable sources. It is a piece of our energy diversity that we use to service our customers with natural gas in Hawaii. And Rich, I understand your response both for Hawaii Gas's first biogas project. Can you tell us about that? Right. We have a project going on at Honolulu wastewater treatment plant where we're going to be taking the biogas from the anaerobic digesters and upgrading it to biomethane, which is about 96% methane, and injecting that into our pipeline. And all the gas generated at the wastewater treatment plant is renewable natural gas and it's not a fossil fuel because it's actually cycling the carbon and the atmosphere that's existing already and it's not releasing any sequestered carbon at all. So is that up and running now or is it in process? Where are you in your project? Right now the equipment is being fabricated. We're going to be using membrane systems to separate the carbon dioxide from the methane. It's being fabricated. We should be up and running by middle of September of this year. So previously the waste methane that was produced at the wastewater treatment facility was just flared off. And so we spent the last five years negotiating and coming up with the technical solutions to capture the waste gas and actually inject it into our pipeline so that we can actually use it instead of it being... So when you say flare it off, does that mean like where did it go? Like it just burned and you just lost all of that. Yeah, so the wastewater treatment plant produces methane as a byproduct so they would flare it off just so that the methane is not released into the atmosphere. So flaring it off chemically breaks it apart. So it's no longer methane. Yeah, so instead of just flaring it off now we can actually use it for cooking, for drying clothes, for heating water. So Rich, how much gas are you going to actually be able to get from the Honolulu project? Right now we're estimating about 800,000 therms per year. And what is that in equivalent to maybe kilowatt hours? How would you get our... The 800,000 therms would replace approximately 12,000 barrels of oil per year. Okay, so you're actually displacing that much oil that you would... Hawaii gas would otherwise use to make synthetic natural gas. Correct. Oh, that's fantastic. Wow. Are there other projects like that in the works? On the island of Oahu there are three other places that are producing methane from anaerobic fermentation. We're looking at trying to acquire those as well. Okay, so where are those other places? Basically it's other wastewater treatment plants in the landfill. Is any wastewater treatment plant available for this kind of use by Hawaii gas? No, not all the wastewater treatment plants have anaerobic digestion. Some are aerobic processes. So basically only the anaerobic digestion facilities would produce. So can you differentiate the anaerobic and aerobic? Anaerobic is basically being processed without oxygen. Okay. So it's sort of an alien environment force. It produces the methane, it produces a hydrogen sulfide, it produces other gases that we don't really care about. So you can't just screen it out or do anything with it. You just don't use it. Well, the biogas you can use, they have actually made engines that can run directly off of it, but you still have to clean the other contaminants out of it. So Hawaii gas is interested in capturing all of the available renewable natural gas in the state, and we're actively pursuing all usable renewable natural gas currently. Tell us a little about landfill gas. How would you capture landfill gas? Is it the same as wastewater treatment gas? It's similar. Basically in the capped landfills, it's an anaerobic environment as well. And they produce the methane gases. And what they're doing now is they actually drill wells down into the landfill itself and then vent the gases up, and those are now being flared as well. So is that technology available so that you could capture methane from Waimanalo, the Waimanalo dump? Yes, it is. It would take a little bit more pre-processing to take some of the, there's other contaminants in it that we would need to remove, but it's just additional processing. So would that eliminate our landfills? I mean, that's one of the biggest problems in the state. And we don't have much land, and it's filled with landfill. I mean, all the waste. And if you did use your process, would that somehow detoxify or whatever is there and use all that energy? I mean, what can you do to reduce the landfill? If we go into source separation and things like that where we can separate out the organics, and then you could actually process those in an anaerobic digest. But as far as the landfill itself, that's going to stay there. It's not optimum conditions in the landfill to produce the methane. They want to keep it dry rather than wet. But what we can do is we can capture the methane that's already being produced, and we can actually, instead of them flaring it off or getting a type of accidental release into the atmosphere, we can actually use it to produce energy. Wow, that's good. Well, how many years out are we from capturing all of the methane from wastewater treatment plants on Oahu and from Lamanala? We're ready to go as soon as the owners of the biogas will let us. Okay. It was a long process getting Hono Uli Uli. That took about five years, and so we're in process with the others, and we're actively pursuing them, and we're ready to go. So what was the biggest challenge in getting the landfill owners, like Hono Uli, to come on board and have this kind of as a model to do other places? I think it's just a process. We're the first in the state to be purchasing it and using it for energy production. So it's a process that has to be gone through, and there was an RFP put out, and we had to put in our bid, and things take time. And then have a PUC approval for the fuel purchase agreement? Can you tell me about, you're capturing this methane, and it's going to be flared off. So why isn't the city just giving you the gas? Are they selling you the gas? Yes. But why aren't they just giving it to you? It's going to be wasted. We're open to receiving the gas if they're willing to give it to us. But you're actually having to pay for it? Yes, we do pay for it. And when we look at it as a contribution, it's going to a good cause, obviously. Around the city. When you pay for it, at least you're contributing to the—you're buying the resource. And you're producing and paying. That sounds like an interesting deal. Aaron, are there other sources of renewable gas that Hawaii gas is really looking into? Yes. We're starting—we've looked at many different options. In fact, I'll let Rich talk a little bit about some of the previous ones. Right now, we're looking into biocrops. So there are several crops that can be grown. They can be harvested three and sometimes four times a year. Without being picked, you just cut them. You run the crops through an anaerobic digester and it actually makes methane. So we're actively pursuing land right now to grow those crops to make true renewable natural gas. Is that technology at commercial operation type scale? It is. Not here in Hawaii. We'll be the first to operate here in Hawaii at a commercial scale, but across the country and other parts of the world that is being used. Oh, that's fantastic. That's large-scale in Europe. So what does your equipment look like, the thing that you're bringing in with the membranes and all of that? Beautiful. You didn't bring a picture? Basically it's going to be a 40-foot isocontainer, so it's all self-contained. It's all self-contained, like a big tank. Not like a shipping container. Oh. And then there will be a couple external vessels for the activated carbon cleanup and some refrigeration and heat exchange. So how big is it? How much space? How much land is it? It will take up the footprint of two 40-foot isocontainers. It's not that large. Less than 2,000 square feet. And where is it going to be placed? It's going to be placed pretty close to where the anaerobic digesters are at Hana Uli Uli. Okay. Now another thing we keep hearing about is hydrogen and, you know, hydrogen being used in fuel cells. And I know that the processing for the synthetic natural gas produces hydrogen. Are you able to capture that hydrogen and effectively use it in fuel cells? Yes, actually what we do right now is we capture and utilize more hydrogen than any other utility in the world. Correct me if I'm wrong, Rich. That way you have the highest concentration of hydrogen in our pipeline than any utility. Yep. So we actually capture the hydrogen and it's part of our pipeline gas in a higher concentration than any other gas utility. Are you able to store it and then use it in fuel cell vehicles, for example? We could capture a very small amount here in Hawaii. We did a pilot project several years ago and it's been a considerable amount of resources researching hydrogen. Hydrogen is a great fuel and we will continue to look at it, but it's very expensive to produce. Most of the hydrogen on the mainland is produced from fossil fuels right now, which would defeat the purpose. So looking at producing hydrogen in other cleaner methods is very expensive and would bring costs up by about ten times. So that obviously made us abandon the pilot. We have time? I have another question because if it is a byproduct, why is it still costly? Because the hydrogen, I mean we're looking at hydrogen state and how we can use it as fuel. So how can it, what is the cost in the hydrogen if in fact it's a byproduct of what you're doing already? Rich is our candidate for all of this. Right now we manufacture hydrogen at the plant, SNG plant. And we're basically making 98% pure hydrogen. The economics are off scale because of such a little use of the hydrogens on island and the cost of the purification equipment so high. To run it in a hydrogen fuel cell you need 5.9 hydrogen, which is 99.999% pure. So you need some pretty good equipment to take it from 98% off. I got another question. I know Hawaii Gas experimented with the biosynthesis plant. Tell us what that was and what were you attempting to do? Yeah that's where we're taking the waste fats and oils from the restaurants and we're trying to gasify those into methane and propane. The process works, it's done elsewhere as well, but the cost of processing it and cleaning up the byproducts was made at cost prohibitive. When you say cost is it in the equipment or is it in manpower? What is the cost cost? The cost was in the treatment of the wastewater that was produced from the process itself for the actual chemical processing to split the emulsion as well as the disposal. So it's equipment that you need to do that? No, it's chemicals. So all of the supplies that you have? The supplies and the final disposal cost. And the other issue is scalability. There's just not enough of the fats and oils in Hawaii to offset enough to make it economical. So you don't have the supply to actually? Yeah, yeah. So really renewable natural gas is our future and renewable natural gas coming from wastewater treatment plants, landfills and biocrops and we're working on those very quickly. We're implementing them now. Honolulu is our first but it definitely won't be our last. Sounds good. This is exciting. How many years is it going to take before you can make a significant dent with the renewable natural gas? I think we're already making a significant dent just with Honolulu and as others come online it's just going to get more of a percentage of renewables. The timeline is really dependent on how long this process takes from a bureaucratic standpoint. The paperwork, the approvals, all of those things. So you're still in process. I thought you got the approval by the PUC and then you're moving ahead? For Honolulu. Not for the others. So it's not like a model so you could just kind of stamp it in other places. I would imagine it will get faster as it becomes a little more commonplace and it will hopefully speed up. So you're the model. You're the ones who are the guinea pig doing this whole thing and everybody can follow you. Hawaii Gas is always excited and happy to be the guinea pig. We try to be a leader in renewables. That's great. Our pilot program with Hydrogen and then the fats and oils. And then now with BioCrops and with the landfills and wastewater treatment plant. We're trying to be a leader. Good. Yeah. That's fantastic. I want to thank both Rich and Aaron for coming on our show. This has been very educational for me. Yes. And I think for the public. Definitely. We want to hear more when you get more and more into this and when you get your equipment. There will be sight tours. We've got to publicize that so people can see what the equipment looks like. And I would imagine that as each project comes online the costs will go down and it'll get less expensive to do each project. We hope so. That's definitely part of the model. The scale is everything. Scalability. So this Hono Uli Uli project and your equipment that's coming in, it's customized for that project or what you're expecting to reap from it. Right. It's sized to handle the biogas volume going into it and the biomethane volume coming out of it. But it can be simple. We've sized it large enough that it can also be used elsewhere. Well I've been told to wrap up here. Sharon, thank you for allowing me to be your co-host. Oh, I love you all the time coming on. And you can come back again too, Rich. We would love to have a white gas. Thank you for having us on the show. And this has been really, really educational. Thank you very much. Aloha.