 Okay, thanks so much for working now. Right. Yeah, it's all set. Perfect. Thank you all so much. Yeah. And my name is Shea. I coordinate the Divest from the War Machine campaign and I'm really glad to have you all here with us today. This is the right to boycott, resisting the crackdown on BDS. During today's webinar, we are going to learn more about the recent wave of anti-BDS legislation, what it means for the movement for Palestinian rights and its impact on other forms of divestment and social movement organizing broadly. I'm really excited about this call. It's really timely and I think it'll prompt some really good discussion. While we're doing the call, we're going to be building towards a community Q&A at the end. So please feel free to put your questions in the chat and we'll get to them as we can at the end. And I'm going to put some community norms in the chat, but we're all here. We're in community together. So please make sure to be respectful of each other and of our speakers. Thank you so much. Okay. We are joined today by Mira Shah, the senior staff attorney at Palestine Legal. Mira supports the organization's case work and public education, oversees the advocacy work on free speech, academic freedom, and the right to boycott. So I think we are first going to hand it over to Noor to talk a little bit about the background on BDS movement organizing and why this is so important. And then we're going to move over to a presentation about what's happening right now with the recent wave of anti-BDS legislation. So Noor, can I pass it over to you? Yes. Thanks so much, Shay. So if we're going to be talking about anti-BDS legislation, first, we all need to know what BDS is, right? And we need to have a good foundation there and to talk a little bit about how it's used in Palestinian liberation. So according to the BDS movement website, boycott divestment sanctions is a Palestinian-led movement for freedom, justice, and equality. BDS upholds the simple principle that Palestinians are entitled to the same rights as the rest of humanity. And the BDS movement draws inspiration from the South African anti-apartheid movement in that same way the BDS call urges action to pressure Israel to comply with international law. So BDS like operates as this tool within the movement for Palestinian liberation that seeks to meet the objective of liberation by calling on the international community to put pressure on Israel. So that's like kind of the big thing there. We want the global community to take part in our liberation movement by pressuring Israel and in that way they'll respond and restore human rights to Palestinians. So it began in 2005 when over 170 organizations came together and they demanded that their three demands would be met and until then the BDS movement would persist. And those three demands are that Israel ends its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands, including Palestine, and dismantling the apartheid wall in Palestine, recognizing the fundamental rights of Palestinian citizens in Israel to full equality because at this point they are second-class citizens. And finally respecting, protecting, and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN resolution 194. So according to the UN and international law Palestinians who were exiled from their homes have the legal right to return back to those homes, yet that's not being fulfilled. Although like we Palestinians love to say like we don't need international law to tell us that we have a right to our land, we know that ourselves, but just to like add that in there it is it is illegal in international law. So as I mentioned earlier BDS stands for Boycott Divestment Sanctions. Let me give you more context as to what that means. So boycotts are probably what you've heard the most when it comes to BDS and they're a method of withdrawn support from Israel's apartheid regime. And this includes refusing to engage with complicit Israeli sporting, cultural, and academic institutions and all Israeli international and international companies which violate Palestinian human rights. So it doesn't just target Israeli companies, but also a company that decides to operate in illegal settlements in Palestine. They would be targeted by the BDS movement as well because they profit off of the occupation and the divestment. Divestment campaigns call on banks, local councils, churches, pension funds, and universities to eliminate funding to the state of Israel and all companies sustaining Israeli apartheid. And finally, sanctions. Sanction campaigns urge governments to take impactful action against Israeli apartheid by banning business with illegal Israeli settlements, ending military trade and free trade agreements, and suspending Israel's membership in international forums like the UN. So most individuals can support BDS through boycotts, like as I mentioned, that's where more people show their support. And we'll talk about that more later. Now I'm going to pass it to Shay though, so we can talk about how this has been impacting other forms of divestment organizing, not necessarily Palestine organizing. Perfect. Thank you so much. Yeah. And just building on that and bringing us to Mira's presentation today, we're going to be learning a lot more about this recent wave of anti BDS legislation, but something that is really important to keep in mind today is that legislative attacks on activists, communities, groups, abilities to organize in support of boycott, divestment and sanctions is ultimately part of a larger move to attack progressive movement, work to move money and power out of violent systems. So organizing around environmental social governance or ESG investment, also known as socially responsible investment, SRI, divesting from fossil fuels, private prisons, firearms, military weapons and beyond are all being threatened by this attack on BDS, which is by design. Anti BDS legislation has actually been working really insidiously to lay the groundwork to suppress movement's abilities to boycott companies for political reasons. The power of boycott and divestment and sanctions, which Nora was just talking about from its incredible strength in the movement against apartheid in South Africa to its power today, is something that conservative politicians and CEOs are picking up on. And they are creating this legislation to prevent that type of organizing by cracking down on BDS and Palestine Solidarity organizing primarily. The intertwined nature of anti BDS and anti socially responsible investing work is something that is being mapped out really clearly in Texas and other states as well. But in Texas, especially it's where we have some stuff on the record. Jason Isaac, who currently works for a conservative think tank, but was formerly a Republican member of the state legislature demonstrated this overlap in 2016 when he co-authored a piece of Texas legislation banning the state from conducting business with individuals or companies that engaged in BDS. And following this legislation, he really very soon after drafted almost identical legislation preventing the state from conducting businesses with companies that boycott or divest from fossil fuels, which was passed. He openly cited the inspiration that he received from anti BDS legislation. He said, we are proud to stand firmly with one of our greatest allies. He's referring to Israel and to show the same support to the energy workers whose power our state and our entire, who power our state and our entire nation. The CEO of the anti defamation league, which is a famously Zionist organization that weaponizes claims of anti Semitism against people organizing for Palestine Solidarity has stated that environmental social governance investment is the latest frontier in the fight against anti Semitism. Conservative legislators, CEOs and beyond are saying out loud what we need to be centering in our work, which is that these attacks on BDS are not just attacks on that they're an attack on our entire movement. And we need to be treating them as such and organizing in solidarity. So this is the grounding that the part of the call that's about divestment more broadly, but so that we can learn a bit more about what's physically happening or what's actually happening on the ground and how we can be supporting. I'm going to move it over to Mira to teach us about the anti BDS legislation. Thanks Shay. I'm just going to share my screen here. Give me a second. Thanks everyone. Thanks Shay and Noor for that intro and to code pink for for organizing and hosting this this webinar. My name is Mira Shaw. I'm an attorney with Palestine Legal. I'm going to start just with a quick intro to how legal for those who might not be as familiar. We are a legal advocacy organization whose mission is to bolster the grassroots movement for Palestinian rights here in the U.S. We provide legal advice, New York rights trainings, advocacy, litigation support to college students, grassroots activists and others who stand for justice in Palestine. We also document and track tactics being used to silence advocates for Palestinian rights, including legislative repression. And we have a website where we keep track of legislative developments. You can find much of this information along with other resources there as well. So as Noor described, you know, there's the BDS movement here in the U.S. It's growing. There's a growing Palestine solidarity movement here in the U.S. It's student led, it's diverse, it's dynamic. We see a range of different actors engaging in different forms of advocacy, including BDS to stand against Israel's treatment of Palestinians. And the movement is increasingly characterized by cross-movement support. You see Palestine is interconnected with Indigenous, Black and other racial justice struggles. And it's also increasingly filtering up from the grassroots. So we see athletes, artists, celebrities, and even some politicians who are willing to break from the status quo. And, you know, I think it's important to bring it back here to, you know, the growing movement for Palestinian rights here is in direct response to Israel's ongoing and systematic violations of Palestinian human rights. We, you know, have a decade-plus blockade and the repeated destruction of Gaza, unending settlement growth and settler violence that takes place with impunity, systematic human rights abuses, and a discriminatory legal regime that is committing crimes of apartheid and crimes against humanity according to major human rights organizations. And this is all taking place with the full backing and financial support of the U.S. And, you know, in light of yesterday's horrific news from Genine, which brings the number of Palestinians killed in similar attacks on Palestinian homes and communities to nearly 30 since the start of the year, and in light of one of the most hard-line racist Israeli governments taking power, this on-the-ground context is just crucial. And, you know, the legislation and the repression that I'm going to talk about today, it describes an effort to get us to look away from those facts and to stop talking about what's happening in Palestine. And I think that is one reason why it's so important to push back and reject these efforts to chill and to silence and, you know, equally if not more important to ensure that we continue to bring the focus back to Palestinian voices, experiences, and demands. So just to sort of preface with that, you know, I'm going to sort of turn to the repression that we're seeing, you know, and to situate the legislative attacks within a broader context here. So, you know, these calls for freedom, equality, justice, and accountability for Palestinians have been met with efforts to censor and chill and sanction. And what we've seen is that advocates who speak out for Palestinian rights are routinely harassed, surveilled, threatened, falsely accused, censored, punished. PAL Legal has documented this widespread censorship and harassment of Palestinian activists over the years with, you know, more than 2,200 incidents that we've documented since 2014. You know, and we've seen similar tactics over and over. It's censor, smear, threaten, give school administrators pressure to scrutinize, restrict or censor student events related to Palestine, smear campaigns that pressure employers to punish or fire employees, frivolous complaints and lawsuits filed, faculty investigated for coursework or syllabus material related to Palestine, and hundreds of other incidents. There's the, you know, the pattern is that anti-Palestinian groups attempt to generate pressure on decision makers to punish or silence anyone who speaks out in support of Palestinian rights, often wielding false anti-Semitism or terrorism smears. And, you know, this is the context in which we've seen this repressive legislation targeting advocacy for Palestinian rights sort of coming into play. And, you know, what we've seen with the legislation, some of these stats are a little outdated at this point. We're seeing different trends, but, you know, we have now more than 260 bills introduced targeting advocacy for Palestinian rights. We have 35 states that currently have some form of this repressive legislation in effect. And while more than 75% of these bills have failed, they keep coming. And there is, you know, there have been more than a dozen introduced since the start of this year alone, still adding the process of adding them to our sites. They're not all up there yet, but we are, we are tracking them and there's a lot. You know, so just what, so what are these laws? What do they do? Anti-BDS or anti-boycott laws targeting Palestine advocacy generally take the form of prohibiting state contracts with or state investment in entities that boycott Israel. And these laws often require potential state contractors to provide a written certification or loyalty oath that they are not and will not engage in boycotts against Israel. Some states require officials to compile and make publicly available black lists of entities that support boycotts prohibiting state contracts or investments with listed entities. And, you know, these laws have had a material impact on the lives and livelihoods of those directly affected by them. You know, Bahia Amoui is a speech with Al Jazeera in Texas who lost her contract to provide needed services for school-aged children after she refused to sign a written certification pledging not to boycott. And, you know, journalist and filmmaker, Abby Martin, similarly, who'd invited to speak at a conference in Georgia, that event was canceled after Martin refused to sign a pledge to not boycott Israel as required by Georgia's anti-BDS law. But, you know, beyond these direct applications and, you know, consequences, these laws have a chilling effect on speech that goes far beyond their stated parameters or objectives. The confusion over the scope or deliberate misapplication of these laws has resulted in chilling, punishing, or attempting to punish speakers supporting Palestinian rights in a range of different contexts outside that of state funding or contracts. And, you know, it's important to know that that's the goal. These laws are in design to chill you into self-censorship. You know, federal courts in Arizona, Georgia, Kansas, and Texas have blocked state anti-BDS laws as unconstitutional. They found that boycotts for Palestinian rights are not distinguishable from historical civil rights boycotts that the Supreme Court has said are protected under the First Amendment. You know, in these cases, rather than addressing the concerns raised by these decisions, state legislatures instead chose to narrow the scope of the laws in order to carve out the plaintiffs so that, you know, the laws would no longer apply to those individuals, but kept the laws in place. And, you know, as such, the underlying constitutional concerns and broader chilling effects remain unchanged. You know, in June of last year, however, the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals upheld Arkansas's anti-BDS law. And the court there ruled that a consumer boycott of Israel does not count as protected speech under the First Amendment, claiming that economic and commercial decisions are, quote, not inherently expressive conduct, unquote. Under the court's interpretation, so the Constitution would then allow, you know, entities to advocate for a boycott, but not actually engage in boycotting. So this ruling breaks from Supreme Court precedent and history, you know, in NAACP versus Claiborne, the seminal case in which the Supreme Court affirmed that boycotts that seek to bring about political change are protected by the First Amendment. And, you know, so the Eighth Circuit really sort of guts that decision and its interpretation and analysis. The ACLU has appealed the Eighth Circuit's decision to the Supreme Court. You know, that petition is pending if it's taken up, you know, we hope and will push for the Supreme Court to do the right thing here, but, you know, that this court has shown in particular that they can't be trusted to protect fundamental rights. So I think it's good reason to not to wait and see what happens in the court, but really to continue to organize and push for repeal, for, you know, organizing to kind of to push back against these laws, you know, at the state level as well. And I'll talk more about that hopefully near the end. But I want to turn to this other form of anti-BDS law, this other type of provision that we've seen. And I think, you know, the litigation challenging these laws has mostly been in the contract prohibition realm, but many of these laws have taken the form of an investment prohibition as well, which prohibits state agencies or pension funds from investing in entities that boycott in support of Palestinian rights. And until recently, we haven't seen too much enforcement against U.S. companies or entities, and there's also been less litigation because it's been that these types of provisions are harder to challenge as, you know, for individuals. There's one case in Texas that was dismissed for lack of standing, but there's been a real uptick in the past few years to push for enforcement of these provisions. So, you know, for example, following Airbnb's decision a few years ago to delist properties in Israeli settlements, which was taken after a years long campaign by activists, you know, Airbnb faced a campaign to get it to back down. And there were lawsuits, there was a public campaign, but also state anti-BDS laws came into play when state officials in Florida and Texas put the company on their blacklists, which prohibited state investments. At one point, the University of Texas Austin told faculty, students, and staff that they could not use school funds to stay in Airbnb's. It's unclear if that policy was required by the Texas law, but again, I think that points to the confusion over the scope of these laws and the potential for misapplication as well. Just a couple more examples in this realm, because I think they're important. You know, I think Ben and Jerry's decision to stop selling ice cream in Israeli settlements, unleashed a massive campaign against it and its parent company, Unilever. The Israeli government wrote to US state officials calling for them to punish Unilever under anti-BDS laws. New York, Texas, Florida, Arizona, New Jersey, at least all blacklisted Unilever and prohibited investment of state funds, including pension funds and Unilever. And in New Jersey alone, the state sold off about $182 million of state funds that had been invested in Unilever stocks and bonds. So that's one example I want to turn maybe to more recently, an ongoing example. The investment research firm Morningstar has faced just this concerted campaign attacking the practices of its subsidiary, Sustainalytics, which gives companies social and environmental responsibility ratings. Sustainalytics takes account of the human rights context in which companies operate in order to make its assessments. And, you know, as such, had flag companies that facilitate Israeli settlement construction or military operations in the occupied Palestinian territory. And Jay Lenz and a number of other Jewish organizations have led a campaign arguing that this constitutes bias. So even after Morningstar hired an outside law firm to investigate the allegations, the results of which found no evidence of bias. And after Morningstar, you know, agreed to the recommendations of the firm, the campaign has continued. And, you know, we have attorneys general of more than a dozen states calling on Morningstar to investigate these claims, threatening action under anti-BDS laws. There have been calls for investigation by the Commerce Department arguing that the existence of these anti-BDS laws created a risk that Morningstar had a responsibility to tell investors about. So, you know, in the face of this campaign, Morningstar, you know, totally has has caved in and, you know, in I think in November of last year, you know, announced that they would no longer be using the term occupied to describe the West Bank, Gaza or East Jerusalem, they would stop using data from prominent sources, including UN bodies, and, you know, that accompanies operations presence in the occupied Palestinian territory would not automatically raise red flags despite international legal consensus to the contrary around business and human rights guidelines. And still, you know, the attacks continue with Jay Lenz, which was recently absorbed by the ADL, sending a letter this week claiming that Morningstar had not done enough. There's a lot in the story, and I just would want to point you all to this really great, really thorough documentation by Mari Kahn and Jewish Krenz this week kind of laying out the Morningstar example. I think it's just really instructive in that, you know, Morningstar's willingness and decision to cave on methodology and standards has not made the attack stop. It's really only weakened the standards that they're relying on. And, you know, I'll come back to this in a moment, open the door to further attacks, I think, along the lines of what Shay described at the very start. So I want to come back to the implications of these anti-BDS laws in a moment. But I think anytime, you know, the focus of this talk, this presentation is on anti-BDS and anti-boycott laws. But I do think it's important to mention this other type of legislation that we are seeing, the IRA or anti-Semitism redefinition bills, because we are seeing more and more of them. And, you know, this is an effort to codify a definition of anti-Semitism that conflates criticism of Israel and advocacy for Palestinian rights with anti-Semitism. So anti-Palestinian advocates are pushing this distorted definition, you know, across the board, federal, state, local levels, you know, with universities, social media companies, professional organizations. To date, it's been adopted by Arizona, Florida, Texas, Iowa, South Carolina, Tennessee, and New Mexico. And, you know, I think we have to see this effort. It's part and parcel of the crackdown on BDS and the right to boycott. And perhaps, you know, potentially more troubling, you know, it's changing and amending anti-discrimination laws to encompass advocacy for Palestinian rights and BDS, both of which IRA proponents have argued, you know, fall within the definition. So it's an effort to exceptionalize BDS and remove it from the broader boycott history and tradition. So there's a lot more that I could say and that, you know, we have resources, we have on IRA and these laws and why they need to be rejected. I can drop a link from our website to our resource page on this in a bit. So I think just, I think it's important to maybe, so coming back to just stepping back from the legislation to kind of where is this coming from. And I think it's important to talk about, you know, the role of the Israeli government in this effort, right? The Israeli government has identified boycotts and BDS in particular as an existential threat, and they've devoted over $100 million to fighting it. Israeli officials have bragged about shutting down bank accounts of human rights defenders, taking credit for anti-boycott legislation, and have pushed states to implement it against entities who have taken steps to call attention to Israel's human rights violations. I think it's also important to mention, you know, pro-Israel groups here in the US are working very closely with Alec, the American Legislative Exchange Council, which brings together conservative legislators and corporate lobbyists to develop and disseminate model legislation that safeguards corporate power and white supremacy. They are responsible for pushing standard ground laws and voter ID laws, among others. And Israel advocacy groups have worked closely with Alec to develop model anti-BDS bills as well as to advocate for IRA codification. I think Alec's role in particular really signals, I think, the anti-progressive nature of anti-boycott and anti-Semitism redefinition bills. And I think the more recent history that Shay touched on and that I'll come back to, I think just only underscores that. So I think the only other, there's a lot of groups involved in this, in these efforts, but I just want to flag the ADL needs to be mentioned here. They recently absorbed Jay Lenz, which had spearheaded the attacks on Morningstar and is doubling down on those attacks. I think the quote that Shay shared is instructive from the ADL CEO, ESG is the latest frontier in the fight against anti-Semitism. And I think that what is happening there is that the ADL is sort of positioning itself as trying to preserve ESG, saying it is sort of supporting ESG, but at the same time, it's spearheading attacks that really undermine and politicize it. So similar to the problematic role the ADL has played for decades in hiding behind a liberal facade in order to protect Israel from criticism. So a lot to say in terms of where this is coming from, but really important, I think to make the connection to right-wing organizations and efforts in the U.S. because I think it shows sort of what this is about and where it's coming from and also hopefully points the way to how to fight back. I think here really, I think as Shay mentioned this, I'll just touch on it again, but since 2021 we've seen this proliferation of copycat bills. Dozens of bills modeled after anti-BDS bills that target advocacy on a much broader range of issues, from climate justice to efforts to hold the firearms industry accountable to attacking masks and vaccine mandates. And Alec has promoted even these anti-BWICAT bills that are modeled after anti-BDS bills. They've even developed this model bill that's targeted at boycotts more broad, sort of fill in your, you know, the movement, the targeted movement of choice and that is the bill that's being circulated. So, you know, that's one thing is the proliferation of bills that are modeled after anti-BDS efforts targeting other movements. I think the other thing that we've seen in Morningstar here is really instructive is, you know, it really opened the door for a broader right-wing attack on ESG efforts, you know, more broadly. We see the anti-ESG bills as well modeled after anti-BDS bills, but really there's a whole narrative strategy that's really aimed at, you know, undermining any kind of socially responsible investment strategy, any kind of corporate accountability efforts here. So the willingness to make a Palestine exception, I think, created a wedge that right-wing actors are really prying open. So, you know, I think there's a lesson here that Palestine cannot be separated from other social justice issues and really the importance of addressing these issues together. So, and in that sense, right, the broader attack is an opportunity to organize alongside other movements who are also being targeted by this new wave of bills, both on the legislative front and potential around litigation as well. Because, you know, ultimately the repression, you know, including legislative repression, it's not unique to Palestinian rights advocacy. It's part of a much broader context where we are seeing the government cracking down on protesters, human rights defenders, and those dissenting from the status quo. And so I think connecting those dots and making those connections and building together with other movements is critical as a way to face that together and to overcome it. Because even in the face of a variety of repressive measures, we are seeing, you know, these movements grow and grow more powerful. And, you know, I think that underscores the importance of continuing to organize to try to repeal laws where they already exist, the efforts to push back against new bills, to continue to organize, including across different justice movements, and to continue organizing BDS campaigns. I think, you know, I also, so I'll just pause here because I want to give a shout out because a shout out to the amazing folks in Virginia who defeated two of these bills this week, as well as to groups in Georgia, Nebraska, and several other states who are working so hard right now to keep new bills from passing. We, you know, we have a list on our site where you can connect with coalitions in your state. We'll share the link, but, you know, please do let us know if you're part of a group that's not on our list and would like to be added. And, you know, I think I'll just the last thing I'll say is that on the legislative front, I've talked a lot about repressive bills and legislation, but there's also, you know, we've seen some affirmative efforts, right, especially at the federal level. And I think that this this isn't a sort of trend that also just needs more support. And it's ultimately what we'd like to see. It's accountability for Israeli violations and the realization of freedom, justice and equality for Palestinians and Israelis and the need to create space for more of these affirmative efforts by hopefully sort of setting aside and moving beyond some of these, the repressive efforts that we've seen so much of. I've gone very fast, and I'm sorry if I spoke too quickly. I'm going to pause here and just maybe just flag that on our website. We are tracking these bills. We have a page where you can filter by type of legislation and to see where, you know, bills are pending, where they've been passed, what the status is. Like I said, it's a work in progress. So we know that there's many new bills that have just been introduced and we're working to get them up there. But there's also a number of resources on this site as well with methodology and statistics and additional information about specific topics. It also has links to legal letters opposing some of these bills that have been drafted by Paloigal or our allies that hopefully, you know, people can use as templates and make their own. But really we, Paloigal, are happy to be a resource where we can. And we'll be trying to keep the site up to date. But if you are aware of new bills in your state, please do let us know. Thank you. Thank you so much, Mara, for that. Thank you for being also part of such an amazing org that is just so committed to preserving the movement here, especially like in the US. So we have some questions. We have a few and like we'll also take some. I know there was a lot being dropped in the chat. So please continue to ask if you guys have some. But I'm going to ask Mara some first and, you know, I might give my commentary before you respond. But how have these pieces of legislation impacted student organizers for justice in Palestine so far? So I'd actually like to give my take on this kind of because I did organize in my university like the last four years and they really do push back on Palestinian organizers, especially like if you're in a leadership position or, you know, depending on your university. But I can see this affecting students in many ways. My first concern would be divestment campaigns on campus. I wonder how successful students will be able to be if universities are deterred and like scared like also what Mira was mentioning a lot was like chilling people into self censorship. So universities already are like kind of under the like spotlight. A lot of times like there's external backlash from the community and I can see way less support than there already is for Palestinian organizers. If there's not only like the social shift but actual legislation being written against boycotting Israel or products that are made in illegal settlements. But I want to talk about the social shift a little bit more because I think that is probably the most impactful to students. I know in my time in SJP, a lot of my friends even who like really care about the movement would drop out because they were scared. I mean there was like a wave where my entire SJP was doxxed and like there were all on like blacklist websites, Zionist websites. So I mean that in itself is enough to like take a really big chunk out of the movement and you know when you weaken an SJP you weaken their ability to be successful with campaigns or like you limit their ways to come up with ideas. And SJP is very, very, very powerful in upholding Palestinian liberation in America. So squashing that I think it really concerns me for like the future of organizing for Palestine in America. I don't know if you wanted to add anything to that Mira. No, I think that that's really important context and I think that that's right in the sense that you know the laws themselves I think have very little direct impact on a lot of the student organizing that we're seeing on campus and you know I think really the laws are about entities that engage with the state that is you know really the direct effect and who's directly impacted. I think there's as I said a broader chilling effect in terms of this idea that the you know it is these laws emboldened and and sort of buttress the repression efforts that the sort of really broad spread widespread repression efforts that Noor mentioned that you know I talked about in terms of the broader context of what we're seeing in terms of like the repression against Palestine advocacy here in the US right. So when there's a smear campaign or a harassment campaign to target you know an SJP event or you know a campaign that's happening on campus it is these laws are kind of pointed to as you know regardless of whether or not they apply the sense that BDS is somehow condemnable potentially illegal and that there it puts a thumb on the scales of you know leading to questioning and investigations and you know administrative hurdles that organizers have to go through in order to get to the substance and content of what they're trying to the activism right and I think that that is that is super chilling and that is you know what we at Hell Eagle have really been trying to push back against in terms of pushing back against university administrators who call call folks in for questioning or investigations that you know to to really push back against you know what is the basis for it is if you is it advocacy for Palestinian rights what are the policies that make this you know problematic in some way and I think just really trying to create space right for the organizing and the activism to continue and you know ways that and that is you know what I think the legislation makes it really hard to do is that it sort of puts this additional weight on the scales and and emboldens the the efforts to you know silence activists and advocates for Palestinian rights thanks so much so the next question is what do you think these anti bds laws indicate about the state of the movement for Palestinian rights I can speak a little about this but I don't know if you want to go first Mira I don't want to like take off no go for it okay cool so I think this says a lot about the state of the movement one I feel like we're losing the plot a little bit I think this has to do a lot with capitalism once we if we're really talking about the state of Palestine we're talking about and oppressed people and they're colonizer and it really should be as simple as that but when it comes to Palestine a lot of people like really don't want to get their hands dirty and like I said the capitalism the role of capitalism plays I'll talk a little bit more about that but I think that in this state of like the world where people are being held accountable I guess more publicly more whether or not these play like whether or not companies or institutions are actually being held accountable obviously like we can debate about that but there is at least some sort of external backlash and I feel like because of that we have to or Israel has to turn to like these sly ways to perpetuate the occupation and we need to be really aware of the way the occupation will adapt itself and adapt itself to every aspect of life so that it could preserve itself and this is why I wanted to bring in capitalism obviously if a company's objective is to maximize profit they are going to want to squash everything that would get in the way of that whether it's the real like ethical responsibility that they have or whether it's just calming backlash from like external backlash and I think this shows how much not only do we have to weren't that this is not just about like Palestine but also other divestment campaigns like we were talking about like we need to be aware of the root of all the issues that create the occupation of Palestine there's issue of white supremacy and there's the issue of capitalism and these things must sustain themselves in order to sustain the occupation and I feel like that is coming to the surface a lot more especially when we see companies like going to such extreme such lengths to not have to not be called out and to not have their violations be brought to the surface Mary if you wanted to add anything yeah no I think there's a lot there I'm just trying to so I guess what I would say is you know if the question is what do these laws indicate about the the state of the movement I would say that it they point to the the strength of the movement and how effective and successful it has been in in really shifting the terms of the conversation such that you know the the the response is not to engage on the terms of what is happening in Palestine but rather to try to shut down the debate which is what these bills and these laws are trying to do so you know I think that that to me is that that is a sign of the movement really being very effective and that you know the repression is taking the form of of really not not having the the the leg to stand on in in the substantive debate but rather rather trying to shut it down completely so you know I think that obviously the the laws themselves are are very problematic not only for the movement in terms of the the chilling effect that we've talked about but also in terms of the the potential the the impacts we're actually seeing right now for for other movements as well but you know in terms of thinking big picture and and sort of the trajectory here you know I think it is a sign of of the of the the real important organizing that's been done for for many decades to lay the groundwork so that these conversations are still pushing through and I think really to underscore what I started with just the importance of continuing to have those conversations to bring the focus back to Palestine is critical yes exactly thank you for reminding us of the optimism we should have I know I tend to like think more pessimistically but it does say a lot about how strong Palestinians are and like our movement for liberation so thank you for touching on that so I think you could probably answer this question better than I can but I came from the chat and it says it appears that the UK does more bds protesting including direct actions against weapon firm weapons firms than the US can someone speak to this um I'm not sure I'm best place to we're you know a legal organization and we respond and support a range of of you know different folks who come to us from you know various parts of the movement some who are involved in direct action and you know others like pursuing other tactics as well so you know I think we do see a range of tactics being pursued here but I don't know that I can speak to a comparison necessarily between the US and the UK I don't know if you or Shay have more on that um I personally don't I don't know if there's some sort of like data that supports that like whether like if if it does like happen more in the UK or if in the US it just like takes a different form um I personally I'm not sure um so yeah I don't know Shay you have anything to add I don't have too much to add but I did see some good notes in the chat people talking about how maybe sentencing would be a little less harsh in the UK how you know the American criminal legal system is is really punitive towards protesters um and I know you know like I've been seeing a lot of actions from Palestine action that have been really visualizing this struggle um and maybe it's just a testament to their organizing strength and a combination of like less repercussions I'm not entirely sure but I think that's a great question so our next question is if morning stars pressured to make these human rights exceptions is this not the case that companies will see little reasons to even adhere to the bare minimum expectation of ethical corporate business practices um yeah I mean I think definitely like if there's little accountability if I think any way a business if they have the incentive to ignore um ethical practices and they know that they can get away with it I mean like I said I'm pessimistic I I tend to be more pessimistic but I I agree I feel like they would see little reason yeah I mean so um I will speak to this from yeah I'm coming at the the ESG conversation from the the Palestine um context here in the US and the the legislation that has been targeting um uh Palestinian rights advocacy here and so I am I'm not an expert on the the SRI social responsible investing world by any means but um yeah I think that there's there's no doubt that this um you know morning stars willingness to to cave on this really calls into question um their their you know how can they approach and and claim consistency about their methodology and claim that they are following particular standards in providing ratings to companies when they're willing to cave to this kind of political pressure you know I think it calls into question all kinds of different things in terms of um you know how what authority do they have then and and why should investors listen to them um you know I so I think it's it's it's a really dangerous precedent that they they have set there um but I think also just um to you know um like agree with nude right that like the the ESG framework is is challenging in and of itself if you're coming from um you know uh an anti-capitalist stance in the sense that it's it's premised on this idea of of corporations like doing the right thing and it's often framed in terms of it being um less risky and potentially better for profits if they follow these um follow these guidelines right and so you know I'm just calling out some tension there you know in terms of um how um some of the the ESG stuff I've seen framed but again well I'm not an expert in that and I'm curious actually if Shay has thoughts on on that as well oh my gosh it's a really excellent question um honestly Mira would you mind repeating like the last part of what you just said just so I can respond well um I know you're wearing lots of different hats so it's unfair to come here but um but no I was just asked like I think that this idea that um ESG if you're coming from an anti-capitalist perspective right and this this idea um then then the idea of ESG really being framed in terms of um making investments less risky and you know really still being about profit right as the the driver for why a company might look at ESG um because you know to not do so might impact their bottom line because of the inherent risk involved and so you know I think just situating that framework alongside maybe a more left or anti-capitalist one um is is just interesting yeah I I completely agree and I really appreciate how both of you like frame the tension there I think um with a lot of the divestment campaigns that I'm involved with that's something that we talk about really specifically because a lot of us who are involved in our anti-militarist organizing are coming at it from an anti-capitalist perspective as well um and there's also the fact that divestment organizing can be really effective and different organizing can take place and work in tandem with each other even when they're working on different levels like you know grounding in the fact that the like white supremacist capitalist structure that we live within perpetuates Zionism and settler colonialism and and these structures that we're working to dismantle um and some organizing to divest certain companies pension funds can make material impacts in the meantime can stigmatize companies or countries that are doing a lot of harm and get us to a good place where we can then move further um but yeah it's never going to be the full thing you know like targeting the stock marketer or implementing ESG principles and enlarged corporations aren't going to take us all the way to revolution but I I think it's a really it's an important question and I appreciate how both of you are speaking to it um okay so Mira you did talk about a few states where this anti-BDS legislation was shot down and someone was wondering what tactics to fight against anti-BDS legislation have like been effective like what have you seen um through legal means like in in courts and otherwise that were effective in shooting down this legislation um so I there's maybe two different questions and I'll take the the sort of legislative advocacy piece first and and just in terms of fighting back against pending bills and places where we've seen successful campaigns and I think that the Virginia example is a really really good one and um they you know in terms of just super mobilized a very much of a of a um a number of different movements and organizations and activists um you know involved and a real engagement at the at the state level you know and I think um I think ultimately the context is the local like the context differs right and understanding the the both the having the information to know you know what are the powerful committees here who are the individuals who make these decisions who has relationships to those individuals like that's critical and that's information that we pal legal you know don't have and so when we you know are we're able to offer resources or analysis or support but it's really the people on the ground who are able to to to make things happen and have those conversations and move lawmakers to to understand um you know how this is impacting them um but it's it's I think that the local context is huge I think having a really you know broad coalition where people are turning out and mobilizing has been very effective I think you know in terms of like the arguments obviously um you know the first amendment arguments are really strong and and really do appeal to um you know a broader swath of lawmakers I think but also telling the stories of Palestinians right who are experiencing this and and how the you know in terms of like IRA legislation for example how how the definition really prevents Palestinians from telling their stories and then sort of creates punishments for people talking about their experiences and history so like telling those that's the stories of impact I think it is really critical and and similarly for I think anti BS those the importance of like why why we boycott what what is this about and bringing it back to um that explanation I think also super powerful so um you know I would defer ultimately to the actual folks on the ground in these state coalitions who are doing the work on this about you know what has worked in in specific campaigns and I think that there's a lot of lessons to offer there and and you know I think I saw a question come by at some point like um you know part of what we would love to do if we can is to connect folks working on different campaigns if you're not already in touch you know um I think there's just a lot of rich um history and and knowledge and and lessons learned there um to be exchanged thanks so much and we have another question I think this is going to be the last one for the sake of time um it's related to what you were saying it says I'm in Tennessee which of course is very pro-Israel in the first place plus we don't have any active campaign supporting Palestine in my area what actions should I suggest to people who want to support Palestine or support BDS efforts so really quickly I just want to say um if you want to support Palestine simply like you can support BDS yourself you can um we'll have the website I can send it in the chat they have a bunch of targeted boycotts if you you yourself can boycott those companies you're you can tell your friends to boycott those companies um also I'd suggest telling people to even like simply talk to their family about what's going on in Palestine open up that conversation and like Mira was saying share those stories of Palestinians and their struggle for liberation it's really for me I think that simple I I like to say that organizing like starts at home some of the hardest organizing you'll probably do is like within your own house and if you guys feel strong enough um and if you know some like organizers in your area possibly um know that like you can empower yourself and those around you to have a campaign of your own and to um you like be that active campaign for Palestine if it's you and a group of people that have like you feel like you have the capacity to and you can connect like with code pink connect with different there's like many many different resources you couldn't connect to and you can be that that Palestine campaign that you wish like was in your community um but yeah if you want to get into organizing for Palestine it's really as as simple as like starting at home or boycotting things yourself I think that that's a great answer to it and the two things I would add to that just one um I would you know stress reaching out to um you know organize it organizations that have a national presence to see if there is anyone in Tennessee and and if there are any active um either efforts campaigns locally state level you know Jewish boys for peace peace the U.S. campaign for Palestinian rights um you know those are good starting points to just connect and see what's available what's out there um and then you know I think just to go back to something that I was saying before in terms of you know this this opportunity and the absolute critical importance of of really connecting with other movements here so maybe there's not a not a strong active Palestine campaign but there's you know uh uh you know racial justice campaign there's a climate justice campaign there's all kinds of ways that you know our our movements are under attack and there's opportunities to build those bridges and to make the connections between our between our struggles and and to bring Palestine into that into that space and not ideally to bring others back to to to fight for Palestinian rights as well thank you um I think I see somebody asking does anyone know where to get boycott Israeli food stickers is that is that what you just said Shay I'm not sure exactly like where to find that but maybe um maybe I could find something but um okay so really really quick just to wrap up I don't want us to go too much over time but um Shay did link the BDS website in the chat and I want to just tell you guys a few of the targeted boycotts that BDS like focuses on there's like a ton of like companies to boycott of course but they work best when we do targeted boycott so HP Puma Sabra Pillsbury I know that one like might be hard to let go of so to stream nobody uses that so it's all good um and then Ahava cosmetics I'm actually wearing a shirt to boycott Ahava cosmetics they operate in the Dead Sea they're an Israeli company so they really simply steal Palestinian resources and then sell them for their own profit and then of course follow Palestine legal's work I'm sure there's a link in a chat in the chat for that or join a state coalition and then also we have this action to ask Anthony Blinken to pressure Israel into releasing Palestinian prisoner Ahmadzadat so there's that too um and I think we're all good is there anything in the chat Shay that I might be missing I don't think so but um oh I think people are saying that Pillsbury actually left Israel so they're off the list oh okay um I was on their website yesterday so let me double check that that would that would actually be good news for me I'm not gonna lie because I do I did used to like Pillsbury um shout out to the service committee for that I'm seeing during the chat saying AFSC led that campaign that's great okay yeah so it does look like they're off the list I'm sorry to put that on there um but these other companies very very much so are still on the bds list um but I think that wraps us up thank you everybody for joining um it always makes me happy to see like all these people want to learn about Palestinian liberation and what's going on in the movement now uh so thank you guys so much make sure you guys are like subscribe to code pink email thread so that you guys can be the first to know when we're gonna have events like this to keep up with alerts and always follow us on social media instagram facebook twitter tiktok um and yeah make sure you keep up with us and stay in the movement thank you guys so much have a good one everyone yes thank you so much thanks Mira thanks everyone for joining make sure to save the chat just good stuff in there