 I will call the meeting to order starting with the pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all. Prior to the election of the commission officers we do need to slay the official number but she will take care. Stand here. No, no. I'm just going to have you repeat after me. Okay. I karate Cirillo having been appointed to the board of police and fire commissioners. I swear that I will support the Constitution of the United States. And the Constitution of the state of Wisconsin and the Constitution of the state of Wisconsin and will faithfully discharge the duties of said office and will faithfully discharge the duties of said office to the best of my ability so help me God. The best of my ability so help me God. Congratulations. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, first order does a selection of permissioned officers, we have a role of president and secretary, I believe they're the only two permissioned officers for this board. So I will officially open the floor for nominations for residents. I will put into nomination, Larry Salmon. Second. Larry do you accept your nomination. I will. For remains open for nominations. Secretary will be next. Are there any other nominations. Any other nominations. I knew everyone's name better. I know there. I saw one other. Yeah, that's me and Kristen. No. I have a motion to close nominations. I like that. I have a motion to close nominations. Second, Kristen. Okay. With nominations close, I'll entertain a motion to nominate Larry at a to approve Larry as president of the police and fire commission. Second, we have a motion and second. All those in favor, please state aye. And from chair votes, I post motion carries. Congratulations. Thank you, Larry. Now does Larry take it. Yes. Okay. Well done, sir. Thank you. I'd like to open nominations for the position of secretary of the police and fire commission. I nominate Jerry to continue in that role because he's so good. Second. All right. Is there any other nominations. Say we say this three times. Any other nominations. Any other nominations for secretary. Not hearing none. I'll ask for a motion to close nominations. So hold. All right. Any discussion. Very none. All for a quote for a closing. Say aye. All those in favor of Jerry Jones as secretary of the police and fire commission. Any opposed. Welcome Jerry. Thank you very much. The minutes moving down the agenda if we may make a motion to approve as presented. Second. Any discussion. All right, hearing none all in favor. Second. The minutes are approved. It was for discussion and possible action. I, along with every other commissioner received an email for this. I ops fire ops. Is that correct? Okay. Appreciate that. Is there a Jerry, you are going. Yes. Thanks Jerry. Anyone else interested. I'm interested, but I have a small claim sharing that. It's not May 24. They do this annually. We will do one in-house. I may be out of shape, but I got to experience it to know what these guys go through. Mike and I will be glad to answer any questions on fire ops. If you have any otherwise. That's pretty. That sounds pretty good. And thank you Jerry for going. So we're going to talk about either seven citizens. So. We, this is going to be our third annuals to fire Academy that will be opening up in the fall. So our application process will go open up some time in June. At the end of June. And class will begin sometime in August at the end of August, August 30th, I believe, and then go into October. And we're going to do a meeting next week at 8. So maybe there's a time. 20, 28 or something like that. It's a nine week course. Every week is a little bit of classroom. And then you go out and do the hands on. So. The. Participants are doing everything we do. They get measured for turnout gear the first date. And then they all the, all the practicals. Nobody is mandated to do that. So if for some reason somebody has a bad back and they don't want to put an air crack on, they can participate in everything else and not just do that course that whenever the class is. We would love, truly love to see some of our commissioners attend. I realize it's Wednesday evenings for about eight weeks, the ninth week being graduation. I know it seems like it's a lot of time commitment, but if your schedule makes you miss one or two classes, that's absolutely fine too. There's no test, and if I pass, anybody can pass. So really, is this, is my mic on? Hello? What time, what time is it from? If you just, usually from six o'clock till nine. And truly, all our comments from the first two classes have been phenomenal. And Maya, I would love to see you attend or somebody truly, it is- I don't know that I can fit in the gear. You will, I'm a little short. If I fit in the gear, you will fit in the gear. I will share with you. But yeah, it is a phenomenal course. You will learn every aspect of what we do. We kind of married it off of the police academy that they've been doing very successfully for a long time. So yeah, I'd be glad to, or Mike and I will be glad to answer any questions, but we'll be sure to announce it and give you an email with the process when it comes to the open. Any questions for the chief on this? Okay. Hearing none, Chief Domagowski, number eight, please. Approval for portions. Perhaps for Corrado, a little history chief of what, and perhaps intend to for Corrado to let a bill of which I would just like to be. Sure. We had a retirement of Captain Jim V. Serrani, Chief. And so we'll have vacancies that we're trying to fulfill. So I've given you letters regarding those and resumes of the people that I'm requesting you approve for promotion. So the first one is I'm nominating for promotion subject to your approval, Lieutenant Doug Tennyson, to rank of captain. That would become effective on May 14th and the promotion ceremony would be on May 22nd. May 22nd. Effective the 14th. Okay. Promotional ceremony. Doug's been with the department for 26 years. He has a bachelor's degree from Whitewater and a master's degree from UW Oshkosh. And all kinds of other training. He's been a Lieutenant for seven and a half years. He's been a Lieutenant in both CID, where he currently is, and in patrol. Yeah, very well qualified candidate. So anything we have any questions? Chief on this particular promotion recommendation. Move to approve. Like this looks fine. I just tried to throw it in all I want. I'm sure you would be, right? Okay, then all those in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Thank you, Chief. Next, please. That would then create a vacancy at the Lieutenant rank. So I hereby nominate and promote subject to your approval, Sergeant Matthew Walsh, to the rank of Lieutenant. Same thing, effective May 14th. So our money for swearing in is tentatively scheduled for the 22nd. That's been with the department for 30 years, has served in all kinds of different areas of the department. I was a detective for 14 years, has been a sergeant for the last three years, has done a phenomenal job for us. Matt has a bachelor's degree from Blackville and is currently completing program at the Southern Police Institute. Any questions for the Chief? I know officer or detective, or I know Sergeant Matt quite well from years of working with them. I just wonder if when somebody has put somebody who had good solid years of service such as Matt has 30, is that a concern that he may be looking at retirement that you're putting somebody, I mean. Nope, Matt's experience is invaluable to us. I would agree. The more that we can encourage him to stay around and retain him. That's what we're acknowledging is strengths by proportion. And he's like I said, he's currently at the Southern Police Institute at University of Louisville right now completing an outstanding program. And that just shows his dedication to keep learning more and be willing to share that with our young officers. So I think that's really good. Excellent. Any other questions? Jean, please. So his valuable experience is in training. See him as a good trainer, is that? I see him for teaching the young officer. Sure, he spent 14 years as a detective. And so that's really valuable on the shift too, being able to guide and train. And he has experience leading investigations, conducting investigations, doing interrogations and interviews. So he has tremendous experience and the ability to teach and develop our young officers. Okay, thank you. Any other questions? Hearing none, motion to approve. So moved. Second. Second. All in favor? Aye. Aye. Okay, lastly, Chief, Kevin Post. So then that would create a vacancy at the sergeant rank. So I nominate and promote subject to your approval officer, Kevin Post, to the rank of sergeant, Detective May 14. Kevin's been an officer with Schwoig and Police Department for six years. He was an officer for even Polar before that. He's on the Accident Reconstruction Team. He's been in your office for the last two years for us. And so I believe that he's a good candidate and will do well in this. Any questions for the Chief? Any other yes for motion to approve Kevin Post? Is there a disposition? So moved. Second. All in favor, say aye. Aye. Thank you, Chief. So we're here in the matter of the complaint of Justin Daniels, Mr. Daniels. Okay, so Mr. Daniels is here. You're here representing yourself. I am. Okay, and Chief Domagalski is here and Wes Brook is representing him. And our purpose here today, so the purpose of the hearing today is simply to set a scheduling order. And so for the commissioners, basically because there is the likelihood I've heard from both that they may be filing some procedural motions ahead of even the hearing. The idea here is to sort of set a schedule so that everybody is aware of the process and how it's going to be followed. I have asked both Mr. Daniels and Attorney Wes Brook to be prepared to sort of let you know as a police and fire commission, sort of generally what kind of a timeframe they're going to need. I think we're gonna wanna make sure that first of all, we set a timeframe deadline for filing any procedural motions ahead of the hearing and then giving the other side time to respond to those. And then most likely a date to be scheduled for disposition of any of those sort of procedural matters first before we then move on to the actual substance here. That's, you know, certainly you have, you can do whatever you want in terms of that, but I think that sort of a schedule probably makes the most sense to make sure that we follow the process and really understands what the process is going forward. I can answer any questions that you have about that before we proceed to sort of engage with Mr. Daniels and Attorney Wes Brook on how they'd like to schedule things. Any questions? Okay, that's fine. All right, so Mr. Daniels, since it's your complaint, I'll start with you. Do you have a sense of either a number of motions or amount of time you're going to need to file your motions? I guess I probably have a few. One I'd like to address as ordinarily as possible because I could have checked. I guess in my opinion, I'll just proceed from here. So what kind of a timeframe are you going to need to file those motions? And you'll be able to, you said you've had a number of motions a week will be sufficient for you to file those in writing. So let's see, today is Tuesday the 9th. Do you probably want to go into next week for the deadlines? Oh, at the end of next week, Friday. Next week Friday, so that would be the 19th. Is that acceptable, Attorney Wes Brook? To receive his? To receive his? Absolutely. Yeah. And what I'm going to do is let's create something and then I'll have you as a commission vote on whether you like that schedule. Adam, as far as filing motions yourself, is that sufficient time for you as well? Probably not. I have two overall motions to dismiss and then I have 10 motions planned on the substance of the complaint. I'm happy to put all 10 of those in one document so that there aren't 10 documents, but the two standalone motions need to be filed separately. So if I could have 10, maybe till the 26th to do that just so the commission knows, I am adopting two children on Friday. So I will be at home with a four year old all of next week. So I can work while Mickey Mouse Clubhouse is on, but some a little deference and additional time to get the rest of those motions filed would be appreciated. So I would say that 26 is, for me, would be reasonable two weeks from now. And it seems to me it doesn't prevent you from filing them earlier, but it maybe makes sense to have the same deadline for both sides to file. So would that be acceptable to you so that you and I would have to file motions by the 26th? How much time do you think you would need to respond? Mr. Daniels? The 10 of them, well, not an attorney, obviously. So I guess maybe a couple of weeks. Okay. Yeah, 10 days to two weeks. So if we go, so the 26th is right before the holiday weekend, but if we go two weeks out from that, that brings us out to the ninth, I think, of June. So that would then indicate responses, written responses by June 9th. Does that sound acceptable to everybody? You're okay with that? Yeah. Okay, and then my thinking is then we should schedule a hearing on those motions as soon as possible after the ninth. I will say that our office, it will be closed. Well, at least the attorneys will be out in the office the following week, Wednesday through Friday, because that's our municipal attorneys institute. So one option, and I think you probably are gonna want a little bit of time to read the responses. So I'm gonna suggest that sometime we'll be in the 19th or a PFC hearing on the motions would make some sense to me. Do you want to set a date now, or do we just want to say that you'll work to schedule a hearing in the week of the 19th? Let's just take a minute to let our commissioners look at their calendars and see if that particular week works. May I ask, will the commission want arguments on the motions that we're hearing, or will there only be responses to the written submissions? That's up to the commission, they want to do. Are we talking replies? No, no, are you gonna want to hear arguments at the hearing versus just responding, just kind of gauge how long that hearing is gonna? I would, so my anticipation would be to at least give an opportunity for at least a brief response. That would seem to make sense to me because there's not necessarily gonna be reply briefs. Unless there's a request for reply briefs based on the responses. So I guess you guys tell me what you want. Before we go any further on this discussion, let's just let us look at our calendars if anyone doesn't mind. Okay, Chris? Yeah, I just, my question is like, what do you think the timeframe is gonna be for this type of meeting, just so that I can kind of figure it out in my schedule? I think with 10 motions plus another two, and then a couple from Mr. Daniels, that's a significant amount of time. I would think you're gonna want at least half a day. Okay, wait, yeah? And I'm definitely not opposed to hearing arguments from both sides. I think that's probably, especially when you got 10. Yeah. So that way they could be summarized. So... Let's start with Kristen and then go around with them. I apologize, this is gonna be like, I can probably finagle the 19th, the 20th. I could do the week is the 19th. I could do that. Monday. I could do the afternoon. I could do the afternoon after one o'clock on the 20th, and then I can free up my afternoon. I just, that's the way we're looking at, right? I'm sorry. The 21st is really out for me. And I could do the afternoon right now of the 22nd, and I could do all day on the 23rd. I would say for me, the afternoon of the 22nd, and all day on the 23rd works for me as well. Just to narrow it down. Since those two are being picked, I'm gonna go with those also. Because I'm pretty open on those two dates. I think I can manage anything. Trin, you can open them. You okay? Yeah. Why don't we both, why don't all of us, just set aside the afternoon of the 22nd, perhaps starting at one, and keep open the 23rd in case we have to go into that next day? That sounds okay Trin, yeah. We'll have to notice the date if we're gonna go into the 23rd. My suggestion would be is that if you, you know, let's try to finish it on the 22nd. I think that's the one that gets it. Prevents notice. That would do all the 23rd if we think we need a whole day. Yeah, I can do the whole day. I think that might be best instead of doing a continuation. That way, all the arguments are freshened up. Even though there are numerous motions that I plan to file, I do not anticipate that they would, that they will be complex. I think I would think a half day, I don't know what Mr. Daniels is, but my motions, I think a half day would be more than sufficient to address them because they are not complicated. So you wanna keep them on the afternoon of the 22nd then? That would be my preference. That's fine. All right. And that would be here. One o'clock, okay? Yeah, and it would be here? Yeah, likely in this room. So then, I guess the question then becomes, do you want to set a hearing date or do you wanna wait until the 22nd, knowing what may be in front of you because some of the motions may, I'm sure there's two motions to dismiss, but there's also motions that may affect what is coming in as evidence. And so your choice is to either set a date now or wait until we know what's gonna be before you on the 22nd and set a date. And that's really your preference as a commission, although I would suggest that if Mr. Daniels or Attorney Westbrook have preference on those for them to weigh in. I mean, if it's up to me, I'd rather set it now just because of my work schedule. It's not easy for me to move stuff around always. I understand. Okay, this other date is to make a decision. This would actually be the actual hearing on the other. Okay, so we're only doing on the 22nd. We're doing the hearings on the motions. Right. Adam, Justin, do you have any objection to setting that now? I don't. So I just, I guess we'd like to point out a point on having many people come as witnesses. So you guys in the full day at this point, how many witnesses do you anticipate calling? Probably at least eight or nine. How many do you anticipate calling at this point? I would not have an idea until I see a witness list from them. I don't assume some of them will probably cross several of them from the police department. Well, let's look at the week of July 10th. I'll be out of the country at the last end of the month. Wow. You too, Christopher. I'm out of the country in a week. So I'm actually all right. Okay. Like this is past that, sir. Okay. So the week of the 10th. Okay. So at the 11th, I have one meeting that I can change and I am free the rest of it. I have a full day on the 11th open. Let's go with that. Like that. 11th? Yeah, that's fine. Perfect. Okay. So that is a beautiful news. January, West Perth, 11th of July. Yes, it's fine. And then all day, is that what we're shooting for all day? Yes. Okay. Right. Okay. So what I'm going to suggest then that what the commission may wish to do then is to instruct me to put together a scheduling order for the parties that indicates that motions are due to be filed May 26th with responses, June 9th, hearing on the motions at 1pm on June 22nd and with an anticipated hearing all day July. I'll move to ask attorney Evans to get that scheduled. Exactly what he said. Okay. Very good. Any discussion? All right. Give me none. All in favor. I have a few additional. Yeah. So let's give both sides if they have any additional things they want to bring up at this point ahead of the motion. So let's start with Mr. Daniels since it's your motion. So a few questions. Some of the policies and procedures I believe I was given some declarations so as to why I need to provide evidence. So I think it said I need to provide each of your paper copies. I haven't, well, my internal investigation reports are about 300 pages. Yeah, somewhere in there, 250 to 300 pages alone. So that's over a thousand pieces of paper I'd have to submit to you guys from just that alone. Then I have DWD complaints, written statements on kind of other documents. Are you using allowable to me to provide these to you? So, or would I have to file a motion for that? I would suggest that if you've got, if you want to provide those things file a motion to do that, some of these are not gonna be sort of technical motions, but things like, please may I be allowed to file my documents electronically and those kinds of things. And if there are things in the policies that you wish the commission to change for this hearing, you can request that they always have the ability to consider those things. So doing that as part of the motion process we probably the best way to do it. That way that also gives Attorney Westbrook an opportunity to respond. And similarly, if he has similar requests you would have the opportunity to respond. Secondly, I don't know how to approach this because again, not an attorney. However, I've seen great concerns about Attorney Adams' participation in this. He said inside knowledge of this for the last two years and involved in several meetings with city officials including Chief Van Velsteen for what my complaint revolves around. So in my opinion, he's biased of this event. And I don't know how to approach this and I don't know if I should file a motion but I think for, I guess, for fairness he probably shouldn't be a part of this. If you can provide any evidence as to his bias that's something we'll consider. But you gotta have evidence of that to make that claim. Saying you have an opinion without evidence that doesn't fly. You gotta remember he's the city attorney. Okay, but if you have evidence that he's shown bias if you can produce documentation, some recordings or something like that that we can consider we'll do so. But otherwise, just having an opinion that he's biased that usually doesn't work under the rules of evidence. How about a defense to come in and testify to the bias with evidence? In regards to this matter or some other matter. That would be okay. That's something we would hear. I'll check on that. I'd suggest you do that as a motion as well. Yeah. Then lastly, have you guys reviewed my written complaint at this point? They do not have the complaint yet at this point. Okay. Well, once you guys, I guess we'll get it. I just would like to point out today to section 62, 13, 5G, which allows me to place the chief on paid suspension during the, I'll come to this process. I feel like this is clearly a situation where that should be in both my allegations against the chief, which I obviously believe I have hundreds of evidence for. Is that he has committed a crime and that he has covered up a crime by officer Brian Prey. Prey's actions are currently being criminally investigated to a John Dole proceeding, which I filed. It's on CTF under my name. So that is being criminally investigated as we speak. So the fact that this man is still in charge of his police department is quite terrifying, quite honestly. So you certainly have the option to do that. Again, my suggestion to you though would be that this is another matter that's really appropriate for a motion so that he can make his case for it rather than just simply say you should do this. Well, I guess my argument is that this doesn't require making a case. It says you can read the written complaint and place them on suspension. So my argument is the written complaint. Understood, but he said we haven't seen the written complaint yet. So that's why we're gonna have to do that. Yeah, we're gonna have to do that. Anything else? I think that's it for today. Thank you. Thank you, Lesbert. Yeah, so I would like at some point the commission to make a decision on what rules of evidence they will be following. I know as a quasi judicial hearing you do not have to follow the federal rules of evidence. However, I think knowing what rules of evidence you will follow will be helpful in writing and crafting motions, particularly given the nature of some of the alleged violations. So I'm not looking for that now but ideally sometime before motions are due to know what rules of evidence will be followed and won't be followed to be appreciated. Well, under section 18 is whether or not we can relax the rules of evidence. If there's a preference that you want them relaxed or if he wants it relaxed, so hearsay doesn't come in and things like that. I think we should have a motion on that also. I think so. And I understand you're not an attorney and I'm not saying you should contact an attorney but there are rules of evidence. They're in chapter 901 through, I think it's like 909 of the Wisconsin statutes and that's the rules. We wouldn't necessarily follow the federal rules because those mimic the federal rules of evidence. You may want to make yourself familiar with that so you understand that. And that would be helpful to you, I think. So I was in law enforcement for 15 years. Okay. So you don't follow the rules of evidence. Sure. So I guess that being said, I understand you're an attorney. That's correct. So am I going to be badger in this hearing kind of similarly to how it's going to run today if he's the attorney representing the city, you're throwing legal credit at me. Well, I'm trying to explain it to you though. I'm trying to be helpful to you. That's all. I could certainly review the evidence. Yeah. So, no, that's why I'm telling you what I'm telling you. I want to make sure you're fully apprised. It may, I have not spoken with Mr. Gaines, given your familiarity, we may be able to stipulate to what rules of evidence we can follow will be followed. I would prefer we follow the state or federal Yeah. evidence, but I don't know if that. Right. And so section 18 does say that civil rules of evidence, I take that to mean the state rules would apply unless it's deemed in the best interest adjusted to do that. I think emotion in that regard is certainly appropriate. And attorney Westbrook brings up another issue, I think, which is certainly if the parties wish to stipulate the various things related to the hearing, you know, that's not going to be a problem. Obviously, any stipulations will have to be approved by the commission. But if you're able to work any matters out, whether they're preliminary matters, whether they're matters of evidence, whether they're stipulating to certain facts, you certainly are free to do that and present that to us ahead, but if they're factual things, just do it ahead of the actual hearing on the 11th. If they're procedural things, do it ahead of the hearing on the 22nd and it'll get presented to the commission for their determination at that time. So just so I understand correctly, no motions about evidence mean we're going to follow the civil rules of evidence. Right. If there are no motions, then it would be the rules. Correct. Let's go. I'm going to go ahead and hit for esteemed fellow commissioner. Give us a brief introduction about rules of evidence and what we're talking about before we just automatically. So I sit in the air. Okay. Yeah. So the rules of evidence really are about what kind of evidence can be presented and what's the basis for providing that sort of evidence. A common set of rules of evidence is those around hearsay. How can you bring in hearsay? How do you buttress that? And typically hearsay is not allowed, but then there are all sorts of rules, exceptions that allow you to bring hearsay in various situations. So if there's going to be hearsay evidence, there's likely to be an objection from one side or the other. And then the side wanting to bring in that hearsay evidence is going to have to show why some of those exceptions are required. Hearay I think is probably, in my experience, I think the closest thing to this kind of a hearing is what we do in municipal court because we often argue in the hearsay, the defendants in municipal court. And hearsay is probably 98% of the rules of evidence issues that we come up with it. There are, I don't know, do you think there's anything else besides hearsay that's likely and relevance? Relevance, yeah. Prejudice or prohibitive type stuff, whether the evidence that's being submitted is more prejudicial than prohibitiveness to the facts. Like someone doing something 37 years ago, that's Pocainus, but if he's a changed person, that type of stuff, you know. So. Yeah, so we have those, excuse me, commissioners jump in, I just don't mean to. So as far as findings, when I hear rules of evidence, I automatically think beyond a reasonable doubt, et cetera. Those three things, but without talking. Yeah, evidence is to be persuasive, stuff that supports your position. Very good. Okay, it's something that you propose that A plus B equals C, you gotta, it's not mathematical like that for algebraics, it's using algebraic number of letters. It's more of a, you have a position, you're supporting it with both testimony, documents, photographs and things of that nature. Okay. Okay, whether or not it's beyond a reasonable doubt, those are standards of meeting the burden of proof. And that's different than the evidence. I mean, you get there by putting in the evidence. And then for this, we have what's called the preponderance evidence, which is considered the lowest burden of others. Preponderance being more likely than not, or in Wisconsin we call it a substantial factor, substantial certainty, which is different than the middle burden, which is clear convincing and satisfactory. And of course the highest burden is beyond a reasonable doubt, which is using criminal law. The other ones like clear convincing, those are usually using fraud cases into intentional toward type cases, things like that. Okay, thank you. Well, understanding hearsay and relevance, those certainly make sense. Prejudice, I think it's the other one. Yeah, more prejudice, something that is gonna inflame the members of the commission, you know, stuff like that, you know, I'm not sure you should be there. Okay, so why don't your thoughts about, to request as far as evidence, making a decision today as to... I don't think, I think we'll wait. And then if a motion is filed to relax the room, I'll respond when that motion comes. Yeah, that's fine. I don't think we need a response today. Okay, that's fine. I do have three other things. Given how discovery and evidence works in this hearing that you are provided it, essentially at the same time that I would be provided it, I would ask that, obviously the complaint will be given, but I would ask that any evidence wait until after you have made determinations on hearsay so that you are given items that should be excluded when you are given the evidence. Since, again, unlike in a civil or criminal child where you don't get the evidence until those decisions have already been made, I would ask that you... No, I told you understand what you're saying. And anytime, as lawyers in the room know, and probably everyone else here knows, anytime you get an allegation, it isn't automatically true. We go through something called due process. The person gets to refute that by putting in their own evidence. That's why we have these type of proceedings. It's why we have a civil court. It's why we have a municipal court. It's why we have a small claims court. It's why we have commissions like this when we have complaints from citizens against people in authority working for the government. Everyone gets due process, everyone. And that's when I wanna make sure everyone hears us understand, including Mr. Fields, because he's obviously committed to what his complaint may be and he has the right to due process. Mr. Daniels. Mr. Daniels, I apologize. I got the just in part right. I apologize for that. Are you requesting that no evidence be provided to the commissioners until after the substantive court until after the procedural motions have been heard? That would be my request. Or that they're provided to me, to us first to determine if there's things that we would like to object to being admitted as evidence. Commissioner, it is at least reasonable to request that if there's going to be any documents or statements entered that they be provided to each other so that there's an opportunity to make motions on those things. That at least is reasonable. And perhaps one of the ways to do that would be to consider given the timeframes that we have, including some additional deadlines for provision of all documentary evidence and for provision of a witness list. Yes, that might be one way to handle that. And then what I would suggest if the commission is okay with that is that basically the instruction would be that those items would be provided to each other and then to me as counsel for the commission before they get broadcast directly to the commission. And realistically, the parties should be communicating with me as counsel for the commission as well rather than directly with the commission. That does make some sense. As far as a timeframe is either if you have a sense as to the timeframe ahead of the hearing that you would want those things. So with the May 26th deadline for motions, it sounds like Mr. Daniels has the majority of his evidence already compiled. Is that a fair statement? So even though I'm off next week, I can for certain read documents while watching a toddler. So I mean, if Mr. Daniels is willing to provide them to me today or tomorrow, I think I would still be able to meet that 26th deadline to add any additional motions if there are specific items that are problematic before you even make your rules on. I know one of your concerns was you weren't sure what your witness list would look like until you knew what Mr. Daniels witness list looks like. And Mr. Daniels, do you have a set witness list that you're already ready to go with or I can tell you right now if you want. Okay, you don't have to do that necessarily, but would you be able to provide a witness list and would you be asking for a witness list and what else? Well, his witnesses would include the subpoena list. The list of individuals who he will be asking are the president to subpoena. I personally am okay waiting till after the ninth given that there will be motions to dismiss individual claims as well as the entire complaint that I understand the witness list will fluctuate depending on ultimately what counts are heard and what counts are not heard. So I am fine waiting till the ninth if it's ready before then that's fine as well. Okay, your motions aren't necessarily reliant on knowing who's witnesses are or the nature of any of that. Correct. So perhaps the way to do it then since responses are due the ninth and then we would have a hearing on those motions on the 22nd, perhaps we're not gonna have, we're not gonna until the 22nd we won't actually have a ruling by the commission on what's happening next. So perhaps that witness list and a list of documents should probably be provided sometime between the 22nd of June and the 11th of July. Can I ask how long, how far in advance subpoena request would need to be made in order to meet the requirements to have that person ordered by the 11th? Usually 805 or 707 requires 10 days. 10 days, yeah. So it would have to be between the 22nd and July 1st. July 1st. So, and we're probably gonna need a little bit of time to process them as well. So what is the Friday after the, the 22nd is Thursday, isn't it? 30. That's correct. I just know I will need a witness list to know who I will need to subpoena if they're not included on Mr. Daniel's witness list. No. Again, I'd be happy to give you names right now, but. So why don't we do this? Since you're willing to do that, it maybe makes sense to, if you're going to provide the witness list ahead of time, to maybe just say that the subpoena list should be provided also on the 22nd of June. And that way you'll have exchange, you can exchange with each other, your anticipated witnesses on those things. I'm sorry, you said subpoena list on the 22nd. Yeah, subpoena list would be June 22nd. So that would be to me so that, so that we can have the Police and Fire Commission issue the subpoena list. And I apologize, Mr. first part of the hearing, who is the president now? Okay. So yeah, so the 22nd, I'm going to include that in the order is that the subpoena list should be provided on the same day as the hearing on the 22nd, but with anticipation that the parties are going to cooperate with each other and providing to each other witness lists. Mr. Daniels will do that shortly and that'll enable Attorney Westbrook to do the same. Are there other considerations? Attorney Westbrook, do you want me to phrase now? No, I don't believe so. I'll just need to touch base with Mr. Daniels to get that witness list and then the evidence as well so that we can have that before the 26th. Do we have any concerns about wanting ahead of time sort of a list of documentary evidence that's going to be presented at the hearing so that you're exchanging documentary evidence? So again, I think once I get the evidence from Mr. Daniels, I'm sure there will be things in there that we are willing to stipulate to as well as things that may be objected to. I guess I don't know what it includes. But for example, he mentioned the Department of Workforce Development complaint. There are certain things like that that I can tell you that we'll have no problem just stipulating to that and having them admitted without any question. So again, without knowing what is all included, I don't have an intelligent response for that. So, and it seems to me then for the commission, one way to deal with this then is sort of just to encourage the parties to work together. If there's a breakdown, the parties can contact me and we can determine whether we need to be in touch with you guys about making changes if there are problems, but we would anticipate that this will be the schedule for now. And if the parties can't cooperate, we'll have to deal with that as the time comes. Can I bring up one more issue? So, most specifically for you, I don't plan on putting the name, the name of this on your subpoena. So, I guess I'll put a motion in person here to say. If you guys aren't okay with it, then I know there's other things that you guys may have to look at, but I use it to not give too much away here. So, maybe you understand what I'm saying, but not more so you. Right, that's why I would need to see the witnesses just to know who you're planning on calling if you're not. So that I know if you're not planning on calling the chief and I want to call the chief that I need to include in, I know you're planning on. So, that's why I'm using the- Well, I should bring up the point that I know I could. If he had to be the testifier. He has the option to testify, but he also has the option not to. Okay, so I can put him on the seat. Yes, thank God. As far as documents, just so we don't run a follow up hearsay. If you got a document that's like an affidavit or a letter from someone that can't show up, we won't be able to cross examine that person or at least he won't be able to cross examine that person. So make sure that whoever writes the letter can be there to authenticate it just to give you info on how to do that. Also, you mentioned 62, 13, 5G. Is that correct? 62, 30. 62, 30, 5G section one. Yes. 5G section one. That was out of the policies and procedures that were sent to me by the car. That's not the statute. Are you studying the statute? Yeah, you know that the statute's probably been updated since that time. Yeah, that's why I'm looking it up and it has nothing to do with what you were saying. So you may want to look it up again. And this is where I'm helping you again, even though I'm not supposed to. You may want to look it up again to see that, okay? Just, yeah, because we update the statutes in this state every two years. Yeah, I guess I didn't look at the statute. I just found some forms that you guys sent me. Okay. So whatever the statute is now, the one that allows you. All right. Are you talking sub-5, sub-G or sub-5G? Sub-5, sub-G. Sorry. So we're actually looking at a couple of years. Yeah, because sub-5, sub-G is for the rules for the administration. The subsection may be made by the board here. About 62, yeah, you just got to have your base and all of a sudden it's sort of like the argument is cool. If you don't find it, it's like no, I can do a little research on it. I got it right here. The most modern one. That's going to be Apple. I guess since it's been brought up with documents and having people here, can I ask what is considered a hearsay document? So I'm the internal police department report. Let me, it's in court, it's considered something out of court statements being submitted for the truth of the matter asserted, okay? So there are exceptions, okay? An exception may be a statement against interest. Perfect example of this. Two people get in a car crash. One of the guy comes out and says, I'm sorry, I didn't see the stop sign. I'm sorry, I hit your car. That's a statement against interest. You don't need that guy to come in court. You can say he said that, okay? That's an example that I run into, okay? So something along those lines would be an exception to the hearsay rule. So things along that nature. And that's why I pointed it out where it is, where you can look for it. And because that may be helpful too. And I can, without looking, things that are like internal, so like a police report, an investigative report are not going to be things that I'm going to object to being entered in anyways, just because their business records, they are what they are. So I wouldn't, I can commit that by the 26, any documents that I start like, oh, I don't like this. You'll, I'll include an emotion or why I, so you'll know what those documents are. But things like police reports, business records aren't going to be, I'm going to have no problem with because they're a record that's by an officer, you know. So just so. It's pretty much all my evidence. Yeah. And if you're concerned about hearsay and whether your items or whether your documents are going to be declared hearsay and don't fit in under an exception, that's probably a reason to think about filing a motion to relax those evidence. Anything else? No. Right. Then commissioners, if you have any other questions, otherwise I'll put together an order based on what you've described here. And we'll move on from there. So let's do it. Thank you. All right. For the questions. Okay. I don't think so. Oh, I guess maybe just one, when you guys plan on reading the complaint. So this, I get it. Yeah. So the idea is that the complaint hasn't been provided because they have to be, they're going to have to be fair and impartial in the matter. So they're going to, they're going to, what I want them to do is to make their preliminary decisions first without necessarily being biased by what's in that document that now there may be, depending on what your motions are, there may be a need for them to have that prior, but we'll do that based on your responses. But my intent at this point is to provide it to them in preparation for the actual hearing on the substance, rather than procedure so that they're not biased one way or the other on making their procedural determinations. Now, if the parties feel differently on that, again, that's something that they can, that's up to the commissioners in the end, if they want to receive that stuff earlier, or if you want to ask that the commissioners receive it earlier, that's a request. I would be fine with them receiving it at the same time. They receive our motions and our responses so that they have, they have the motions and responses at the same time that they're getting the complaint to have everything. I don't think that there's, I would be okay with it coming at that point. You okay with it that way? I guess I have two arguments. So I guess this isn't a criminal matter. I get that. So it's not a criminal matter. I would see the criminal complaint and see reports prior to motion hearings. So if the argument is you don't want them to be biased by reading that report, how is my complaint that I believe would be biased? So your complaint is not akin to a criminal complaint. It's more akin to the police reports that, that buttress, that complaint. Now it is true that at some point the court in a, in a criminal matter, although not necessarily a non-criminal matter, will receive items from that and making a determination whether there's probable cause to proceed. Here we're not dealing with sort of a probable cause to proceed unless and until that's a motion that comes before them. So because your complaint is more akin to the actual police reports, the documentation, rather than just simply a straight, here are the charges, you know, the citations to the charges. That's why I've made that determination for now. Okay. I'll just make two comments then you guys can decide what you decide. So I guess my point is, is I guess going into a motion period of the first, you guys had some knowledge of what was happening before ruling on procedural items. And secondly, I guess I would urge you guys to read it as soon as possible. I mean, I filed this thing a month ago and like I said, I know it's without getting into the complaint itself. I know official documentation and records where I'm getting my information from that show of the chief is engaged in this conduct. So again, I would urge you based on what you're allowed to do be a statute, put him on leave prior or until this is resolved. And it's up to you guys from there, but that's just like that. Any response to that? So again, I would not object and I agree that receiving the complaint when you receive the responses. So I would imagine that's going to be on June 9th or 10th ish, would still give you 12 days before the actual hearing when you make that. So that to Mr. Daniel's point, you have the complaint as well as all of our motions to be making rulings on those motions with all of the evidence, if we were not the actual evidence, but with all of the evidence in front of you at that time. So I don't have any problem with you receiving the complaint before you're making rulings on the motions. I would just ask that you not receive the complaint before we have the ability to also provide you the context that will be in the motions. So what I'm hearing is a request that the complaint be provided with the responses. They're going to, the parties would send the responses to me on buying no later than June 9th and then I would send them out the same day. So then I would, if this is agreeable to you, what I would do is send to each of you commissioners on the ninth, the motions, the responses, and the original complaint all at the same time. So you would have that. I just want to know if that's his request. That wasn't my request. My request is they view it today. Well, the commission can consider either request at this point. I, so my advice to you is I think attorney Westbrook's concern is valid up to the night. I think once the responses are heard on the ninth, there's really not much reason to withhold it from you. So the ninth makes sense. But if you wish to receive those things earlier, I think that the main thing that you have to consider, if you receive it earlier and you can see this release today, is that remembering that it is merely a complaint. There are merely allegations. I'm going to make a motion that the commissioners begin to complaint. As soon as possible. And the reason why I'm, this is to myself, you get a complaint. I get 45 days or 20 days to answer it. I think we should be able to digest it. And then. Any, any of the commissioners in this room will be biased by seeing, but what Justin has to say in his complaint. Is. I, I. Wait a second. We have a motion. Motion. Do we have a second? Second. Okay. Wait a second. Wait a second. Is there any discussion? Yeah. No, I was just trying to make sure. Okay. I just wanted to see that. Okay. So the difference here is that I don't, unless. I don't have the option to write a response to the complaint. So unlike in a civil matter where complaints is issued, and then there's a response so that a judge or a jury can, can see both sides. In this case, you're only provided with one side and no opportunity for the other side to present any counter until. Either the hearing or the motions occur would be my, my only response in terms of the difference between. If I can address that concern, sometimes we get a complaint and we don't even answer it. We just settled because it looks good enough to us, you know, in the civil practice, you've heard that happen probably. And that's why, you know, I don't think it'll buy it. You know, we're educated people. I don't think we're going to be biased by seeing what the complaint has to say in his complaint. I mean, you still get a response. We'll be doing motions. Obviously, you know, it's good balance. I don't think we're going to all go, Oh, definitely. It's not going to be the final word is what I'm saying. And I think that my fellow commissioners can agree with that, that they wouldn't be prejudiced just by seeing the complaint. It is just my complaint. I understand that at this point. Yeah. I don't, I have no point expecting you guys to read it and take my word as gospel. Let me present it to you. That's why we're going to go with through the responses and the hearing and all this, like I said before due process. Okay. We have a motion and a second commissioners. Is there any other discussion? Adam, do you something else? Well, can I ask them, may, will the commission allow me to file a response? There's no harm in that. If I can get a copy of it. If we're going to do that, maybe the best way to do that would be to incorporate a deadline for quasi answer. Is that okay with you? Absolutely. Okay. So we need to be ahead of the motions. What kind of timeframe would you need for an answer? I can have it by the end of this week. Okay. So that would be the 12, right? Yeah. So, and then you have a motion in front of you to have it immediately provided. Another option would be to provide it with the answer on the, on the 12th. But that's up to you. Okay. I'm going to say something. Go for it. I, I. I have no. I mean, I have no preference. Can I receive a copy of their response? Yeah, everything. So everything that you file. Should be filed with me as counsel for the PFC. And then filed with that you file with Mr. Walsh for the PFC. So that would be, this rest work would file everything with me and, and copy you. Is there anything else outside of the commissioner? Well, commissioners. We have a, now I have a request from our attorney. To not see the complaint immediately, but rather. See it. I have June 12th. May 12th. Excuse me. It's not a request. It's just that's the motion in front of you. So I would. Okay. Just so you know, attorney, I think you know, but we can't address even an option. Right. As we ask if there's somebody else willing. Right. You know, because your motion in front of you is for now. Okay. So once we went for a motion. Yeah. It's dead. You're concerned. I request this. I'm an option. Okay. Okay. Why do we do. So we have a motion and a second jury would make a friendly amendment to the motion. And we have a motion to make a friendly amendment to the motion. Okay. So I would like to. Please. To adjust the date to Friday, May 12, 2023. For receipt of both the complaint and the response. You accept that. I, I'll second that I'll do better. Not only will I accept it or second it. Okay. All right. Now we have a motion. It's been seconded. The original motion has been. Removed. Okay. And this is to receive everything on May 12th. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Hearing none. All in favor say aye. Aye. Okay. Thank you. Further. Anything else, Mr. Daniels. I got your name right the second time. Yeah. Okay. Motion to. I'm sorry. Before you go into closed session. Do you want me to stay for the closed session? Or are you going to be working with Mr. West Park on the closed session matters. If you want me here, I'll stay, but if you don't need me, I'm upstairs and you know how to get. No. I think this was pretty straightforward. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'll second that. All right. We have to do roll call vote, please. All right. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. All right. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi.