 Thank you for staying with us. You're still on the breakfast on plus TV Africa right now. It's time for a hot topic And we're looking at the consequences of government debt Well joining us to make sense of all of this is Muhammad Abdulahi is a public affairs analyst. Good morning, Mr. Muhammad. Thank you for joining us Yes, thank you. Okay, so we're talking about the consequences of government debt now We know that Nigeria is in debt most times we keep borrowing to service The things that we say we need Sometimes we borrow to even buy a hundred and sixty million NARA SUVs You had to bring that I had I just had to we we borrowed to You know have like good road transports we borrow for a lot of things now servicing this debts is another thing But I just want you to walk us through Why we borrow and the consequences of borrowing Borrowing itself is not It's not like I always say like the very big deal. I mean this is even even the biggest economies the US actually The biggest borrower. I mean if you look at the statistics they hold a large chunk of Money to Externally and internally but you want to ask yourself if you compare to a kind of society What do we borrow to do? I think that is the Most important thing Yes, like I said earlier large actually borrow as well but the difference between these developed economics and ours is the fact that They're both of you know to finance capital project to finance infrastructure to finance things that will have That will be of relevance. I mean to the larger populace, but in our own case is the other way around I was listening to the news yesterday or watching the news yesterday And it is astonishing that I mean the National Debt Office is saying we all bought internally and externally about 87 trillion That's in it that in itself is not a bad comment, but you look at What were these monies? I mean this one is that we're both What were the capital projects that were done? Are they still viable are people using it and then how do we repay? It means it's very much possible for us to repay these loans But in a case where we are borrowing to Finance consumption we are borrowing like you rightly mentioned to finance Luxuries like SUVs We are borrowing to finance Luxuries like the presidential yacht and so on and so forth then it calls to a lot of question because that in itself Does not give any guarantee that we will be able to pay because this like this lot these are expenditures In fact more financing to maintain them rather than You know generate profits from them So these are some of the biggest challenges that we have in this part of the world most of our boring things We are meant for financing our luxuries You know is is is so shocking seriously because I think at this juncture and at this kind of time We are supposed to have gone past This this kind of thinking I was really disappointed in the new government. I must be very frank with Nigerian You know, there are so many Things that the new government have initiated that I felt are not right for instance If even you government is coming and it's you know, we're moving subsidy telling Nigerians to tighten their belt and so on and so forth and then boom The president goes ahead and appoint 50 Ministers for God's sake 50 even surpassing That of the former president for hurry, you know, how do you find dance this foot? Chris cost of Governance when you are telling Nigerians to you know, tighten their belt when we all know that we have challenges You know again issue of COP 28 as well when the government is saying they had More than a thousand delegation, but the government said, okay, the only spider government Specifically said this person about 140 something. That's still very many You know, so you see you you have a lot of things that is going on that is not right because this money's are not even there We are borrowing for instance, perhaps we will go to the question later even our budget. We are budgeting 33 be 200, you know poverty-stricken because if you divide 300 33 billion by 200 plus million people You have less than 200 dollars for a year to spend as a Nigerian Yeah, but to shock you at least 10 10 billion dollars of that 33 billion will be bought by the federal government But again, you have in this budget a lot of revoluted You know 15 billion error to be used to to build a new government lodge for the vice president And so on and so forth the National Assembly is there adamant in spending 57.6 billion in buying luxury vehicles from a budget That you'll be boring at least 30% of that, you know So these are these are the things that we need to correct, but it seems we are not ready to learn our lessons. We're ready to keep Dodging in this attitude of borrowing just to finance our luxuries and keep improving the nation So it's it's really hard hard breaking. All right. So you highlighted capital Projects now in Bouchie state the court has ordered a contractor to seize 62.5 million worth of properties from the states because the state is owing this contractor So we're talking about capital projects that we are not even doing there are not there's nothing There's nothing no roads no Infrastructure, but then we're still boring. We're still boring so much and we can't really see what they're using This money is for shouldn't we be asking this government why? Why they're not as transparent as would want them to be and why can't we see what our monies are being used for? And you know, we need as a people just just a moment as you answer that we need as a people to know Really the consequences of this borrowing because once we begin to know That this is what is going to cost us as a people Maybe we'll start to ask the relevant questions that we need to ask and take more proactive actions So what are these consequences of these borrowings that we keep doing without the infrastructure, right? Like like we may sing on not just the economy, but on the people of Nigeria The consequences are numerous first and foremost you and I are indebted perhaps As Nigerians we are indebted to external bodies whether it is the IMF the World Bank and so many You know and so many international bodies even though you and I perhaps have not seen a cobalt You provide your own security to provide your own water. You provide your own electricity as a Nigerian and so on and so forth But again, you are indebted At the last count perhaps I can't really recollect but I know at the last count it said that perhaps every Nigerian Ours all these international bodies perhaps to the top to the tune of a three four five thousand six thousand dollars And so I'm not I might not be very court, you know, I can't really recollect but you know, it is that is it it is in that range So and like I earlier mentioned you as an individual provide almost everything for a second security I'm sure wherever you leave you pay people to secure your gate. You know, you dig your own I mean you provide your own water by By you know buying generators and so on and so forth, you know, you create your own roads I mean within your estate and your various streets and so on and so forth So, you know, what are then what is then government going to finance you begin to question But we mentioned earlier we said majority of our borrowings are going into, you know, Luxuries that surface just the very few in government. So that is That's the consequences. So we need to as a people Continue to talk. I think that's the best we can do. We can take up arms But we need as a people to continue to highlight this to the relevant authorities But mind you people are actually doing quite a lot You know, if you if you look at some of the things that private entities and the lobbies are doing for instance I don't know if I could mention them, but I know of a tracker ng in Nigeria, you know Would that that breaks down the budgets of Nigeria every year They follow to the latter Each monies that has been, you know, allocated for each folder, but I tell you this is December 29 2023 you go to see various things highlighted in Nigeria's budget 2022 just two days to the end of the year A lot of those things have not been done. Monies have been allocated People have taken the money and nothing and nothing has been done You know, a lot of them just follow tracker on social familiar. You'll be amazed at what You know, the so-called perhaps elites and people in government are doing to this country You see a lot of projects Highlighted I was I was on their page yesterday and I see a lot of things projects in delta state projects That are supposed to be done in schools and so on and so forth a lot have not been done And money have been dispensed, you know, so what is ICPC doing? What is EFCC doing? Private entities are going deeper to bring these things to the fore So it's it and like we said Monies are borrowed actually to finance this budget yet People take this money They don't even budget it At best people do shorty jobs. Perhaps jobs that are meant for 200 million I just don't perhaps 50 million or even less and then the rest are is is is looted So we need to continue to talk and people Nigerians at best are doing their very best You know, like I said a lot of initiatives are out there trying to bring this thing to the fore But it belongs on our government to carry out action as soon as possible And if you also mentioned about if you want if you want me to chip into that I think Bouchie is like we always have in this part of the world. There is no continuity in government That project that was done in Bouchie was in since was since 2009 2009 how many years ago now that was that's like I think 14 years Also, you go and the then governor was even Isayu Guda, not the present government But again the the project was done Delivered a letter of commendation was signed by the relevant government agency to say yes You have delivered this project. So what is stopping the payment 14? 14 years ago since 14 years ago The challenges again that we find so perhaps this present government is thinking oh, we're not the one that signed out of this project We're not the one that delivered this for you. So why should we pay but government is in continuity And this is some of the things that we lack in this part of the world, you know You find so many abandoned projects here and there Perhaps, you know, we keep Re-budgeting and re-budgeting for things that have been budgeted for in the past This present administration wouldn't maybe won't complete it. The next administration will come But then for the same thing for the next eight years, and then we keep re-rolling on the same spot It's our kind of governance is very fun here. Seriously So where do we go from here? What are the things that we can do even? The citizens of Nigeria to ensure that we are not borrowing because if you're telling me that as I'm here I probably own all about six thousand dollars. Where am I going to walk about six million? Yes, where am I going to walk all of that money to pay? So as a Nigerian, I'm already indebted Without me even trying to get money because I did not spend that money But yes, I'm indebted. So what can we do as Nigerians right now? To ensure that our government is not borrowing as much and even if they are Since they say borrowing is not such a bad thing as long as you're using it For the economy for the economy to flourish What can we do to ensure that our government is borrowing for the right reasons and then not borrowing for frivolities? Yes, I think there must be check and balances and then even though Um Citizens like you and I have a little to do but we still have actually a lot to also contribute For instance, I know uh in Kaduna state in the first dispensation of the last uh presidency Uh, you know, I know uh citizens rally, you know, they are They are they are representatives and senators at the national assembly to stop the former governor Kaduna states malam el-wufai from taking a world bank loan. In fact, if you look at the statistics Aside legos Kaduna is the second most indebted state in Nigeria So the then senators which caused a lot of brouhaha between the senators and the governor then, you know Said we are just taking a lot of these loans. What are we actually doing with them? If there is no capital project that will you know impact the life of Kaduna citizens We shouldn't be doing this and then they blockade the the loan Based on, you know feedback from their respective constituencies. I think this is what we should do a lot more I'm not saying you can't take loans, but please there must be a blueprint To say this is what we are Perhaps the loans even be channeled directly not monies paid into governance into government Covers the loans I mean if they are to be taken should be paid directly into the coffers of the project to be delivered You know, and then there are modalities to say by this but doing this and doing that will be paying back And so on and so forth So Nigerians like yourself and myself have a lot to do we need to continue to talk We need to layer small with our Representative at the nationality because they are the ones that need to check the Excesses and balance the excesses of you know the executive whether they are governors or even the president and so on and so forth So we need to do more. We need to bring to fall to keep talking and and and and to keep advising to keep writing letters or keep visiting our Our representatives at the national assembly at the state assembly to tell them What needed to be done? I know some of the maybe quite not all But I know many of the national assembly members, you know, have what they call Uh, a town hall meeting with their constituents perhaps every quarter or at least once in the year at worst, you know So we should take opportunities of uh, this kind of forum or this kind of forum to to to to pour out our mind To tell, you know our because they are representatives You know they should be there to do our bidding even though it's not always the the team But at least we should do our own best in making sure that we tell them where we feel things are going right Or where we feel things are going wrong so that there should be or there could be a kind of amendment on their own part Well, um Let me speak like a lawyer now I put it to you that those town hall meetings are not for the people Because you get to a town hall meeting as an ordinary man If you are even allowed to enter the the hall or wherever they're having this meeting You will never have a microphone to speak It's a selected few that will speak and they are given questions to to ask and all that So it's never a really never really something that the people contribute to but like you said, uh, we'll still Keep crashing the party and making sure that we say what we need to say But in in closing let let's just pick your mind on On an issue that a lot of people are not comfortable with some are comfortable some are not the issue of External lending bodies you just made mention of the fact that when you are going to take a loan You need to have a blueprint with which you you can tell the people giving you the loans How you are going to pay back it doesn't seem as if Nigeria has this kind of blueprint all the time They go cap in hand to the IMF for instance But IMF keeps giving us these loans that they know very well that most times the politicians just use it to To finance their their their luxuries and all that So do you think IMF is playing a good role in uh in growing our economy or Our relationship with the IMF is more detrimental than beneficial The personal opinion place yes You remember this this adage that Whoever Paid the pipe at the take the tune, you know So it's like that, you know the IMF and other international lending bodies They have their own strategy as well. So before even giving you the loan even if they know I'm just let's just assume they know that you are not using that loan for what is meant for They already give you some kind of policies and principles for you to do for instance devaluation of currency Yes, you know for instance, they tell you you must do this this way You must do that that way and because you just want to get this loan you go to do even though it's At the detriment of your citizen. We've seen a countless, you know situations like that You know, in fact, uh two weeks ago the world bank was advising nigerian government to hide Kill prices I'm sure you must have seen that. Yes. Hello, sir. Are you there? Oh, I think we just lost lost the audio there. Yes But yes, I mean, okay That was your audio is breaking. But if you're able to come back, just wrap it up with what you're saying Okay, we lost the audio. Yes, just wrap it up. Yes I'm saying Just two weeks ago the world bank was advising nigerian government to sell, you know, you know That's probably things they may do into the internal affairs of these countries that they give loan and because perhaps the african the african Uh What they call the african leaders are so insensitive as well to the plight of their citizens They go cap in hand accept all these stringent policies and the detriment of their citizens Just because they want to get this loan and they get this loan like you rightly mentioned the you know They they they indulge most of it into their frivolities and luxuries the expense of the citizens and then the citizens are left You know to pay back perhaps in 20 30 40 years time or so and so forth You know, so it's it's quite challenging I'm sure your question to answer your question directly these international bodies are also not helping the situation And you you wouldn't want to blame them because it is our leaders who are selling The citizens and the countries to them at a very cheap and a very very cheap rate. So we need to rethink Okay, okay. Well, I hope that that's just done because I don't want to be owing That that's all that's ringing in my head. I don't want to be owing $6,000 that I have to pay and if we keep, you know Getting these loans It's it will increase and in a few years you'll hear that every Nigerian is owing about $10,000 20 thousand dollars Well, I just leave and go to that country. I just hope that doesn't happen. But yes, we want to thank you for Coming and speaking to us. Thank you Mohammed. Thank you so much for joining us and we'll see you next day Hey, man Yes, thank you All right, we've been speaking to Mohammed Abdelahi is a public affairs analyst and we've been talking about the consequences on government debt But yes, we'll go on a quick break and when we return we'll be looking at our next hot topic. Please stay with us