 Mae'n bwysig i'r zeithio ar gyfer y sefydliadau. Mae'r cyntaf yma yn ddysgu sy'n fwyaf ar gyfer y cyflodau o gwybod. Efallai ymryd cyntaf o fynd i gyfaintio gyda'r gwybodol o'r cyflodau o'r Pat IntoLunia, mae'r adeiladau a'r adeiladau yn y ddweud i gynnwys i gael cael ei Ynw Llywodraeth. Mae'n i'r ddweud i'r ddweud i'r Gwlll Llywodraeth. I'm also an author of the provocatively titled The Second World War on Marxist history, and I've got an article coming up in military history monthly on the bombing campaign again. But one of the reasons I would also very pleased to speak today, and one of the reasons why when I was asked this morning whether this event should go ahead, is my mother volunteered in 1939 along with my father, but my mother served in the ATS, the Women's Army as a searchlight operator in London during the blitz of 1940-41. And the picture she painted was one of suffering, yes, but also people having a normal life. For instance, up all night during the bombing, but at lunchtime going for dances. And my mother talking about the number of free French, Norwegians, Canadians, South Africans, very eligible young men in London at that time and the fun they had. And I think it's important to remember in the context of today that they were trying to carry on a normal life in the face of evil, and I think we should do the same because to do otherwise is to surrender to that evil. I should also add, just in a little personal note, I remember back in the 1960s when holidays abroad became a feature of British life and the Costa Brava was one of the areas people went to. Both my mother and dad explaining to me we would not be going on holiday to Spain, certainly not until Franco died and the end of the dictatorship. And I'm pleased to say I never did visit Spain until after the death of Franco. Now having got that off my chest, I would like to introduce our two speakers, apologies from Mirella Boyer who unfortunately can't be with us today. But we are very lucky to have Jo and Joseph Nuit, who is going to be our first contributor, four by Montserrat Paillir. So I'd like to introduce you Jo. Malabey Bondier. First of all I would like to thank very warmly the organisers of this workshop, Diplo Cat, as well as the European Observatory for Memories, the Universidad de Barcelona. And, well, I would like to thank you all of those who have participated in the organisation to this seminar. Thank you very much for having invited us. I am the speaker of my political party in a parliament commission in the Catalan parliament, the commission on external affairs. That depends on the government department, the Minister for Foreign Affairs of the Catalan government, who is also the Minister for Memory Public Policies. My mother is today 91 years old and she will be 92 very soon. As you know, old people sometimes don't remember about what happened yesterday for Sapa, but they have very vivid memories about events that took place many, many years ago. And my mother always remember a fatific date in the city where I was born, which is Reus in the south of Catalonia. Today Reus has more than 100,000 inhabitants, but back in 1938 it had only 32,000 inhabitants. It was back then a civil war in Catalonia context. In January 1924, Reus had a shelter, what today it's called, a freedom square. A shelter, a square that was called the square of the martyrs, and while they placed in fact a fascist monument in the middle of the square. And in this freedom republican square, the biggest shelter of Reus was built for more than 3600 people. Back then on January 21, when the alarms announced that planes were approaching from Mallorca, the refuge was full of course. But unfortunately one of the bombs hit the entrance of the shelter. 40 people died and hundreds were injured, badly injured. Some of these injured died in the later hours. And my mother's brother died, Josep Pujols, so my uncle. And at home we have always remembered him and his loss. He was 17 years old back then. He was a civilian, a non-movilised civilian, and my family will always remember him with great affection. The fascist bombardments in Catalonia really marked the civil war and the perception that many Catalans, many republican Catalans had. People that were part of the front line, who never was part of the front line, maybe their brothers, their husbands were in the front line. They were rearguard and the bombings were the experience that really marked their experience about the civil war and the warfare conflict. It used to be said in the past in Barcelona more than 2500 people died as a result of the bombings. But in the rest of Catalonia, twice as much people died and many Catalans cities were bombed. Of course Barcelona was badly bombed, but also Leida, Tarragona, Granulles, Granulles Mayor is amongst us today. Also Figueras in the north of Catalonia, Reus in the south, San Vicenzo, Caldez, Flish, El Cana or Tortosa. Many other cities were bombed. All these cities were bombed with different aims. The first target was cities in which industrial production was taking place, cities that could be somehow related to the war in Reus. There was an important factory to assemble and repair Russian aircrafts, so it was a clear target for the fascist aviation. There were also communication nodes. Reus was a communication node as well as other cities. They also bombed energy sources like electric plants, hydro plants, which were of course badly hit by the bombings. The civil population suffered as a result of these bombings as well. Some of the facilities were left intact, but many, many people around those facilities died. Another objective of the bombings was to threaten the civil population. Our previous speaker said that the battle for the morale became in the Spanish Civil War and later on during the Second World War. The most important battle, let's all remember that Spanish Civil War, was only a short test for the Second World War. An environment where to test military techniques that were later on implemented large scale during the Second World War. So, as I said before, one of the objectives of these bombings was to threaten the civil population to undermine their morale. For many, many leaders, this battle against the people's morale was even more important than destroying actual infrastructures. I would like to read some examples to you. I would like to share some examples from, for example, General Mola, Emilio Mola, who in his memories on April 2, 1937, he wrote a very significant sentence. He said, Spain is dominated by the Catalan and Bilbao industry in order to make Spain healthy again. We need to destroy all this industry. So, Catalan and Basque industrial networks was a clear target. General Bellardi received a telegram from Rome, the head of the Italian aviation in charge of bombing Barcelona and other Catalan cities, as well as Balencia. Well, this general received a telegram from Rome saying, start as of tonight, violent actions against Barcelona with systematic bombing throughout all the night. What does that exactly mean all the night? Well, the objective was not necessarily to destroy a specific facility or industrial factory. The Franco's Secret Service detailed more than 220 targets in Barcelona, which were potentially interesting for the fascist aviation. So, there was a whole spectrum of the city that could be, let's say, hit and destroyed. But the target was to undermine people's morale, not necessarily destroying all these military targets. It was about threatening the civil population to, let's say, not let them know when the bombs would actually hit them, so the psychological impact was massive. And many, many people like my mother, when they remember the civil war, especially all those who were in the rearguard, is precisely the impact of these bombings, the psychological impact of all these bombings. It was horrible for many, many Catalan's in these rearguard cities. I would like to say in order to conclude this first intervention and let or give the floor to my colleague, to my MP colleague, Monse Palao, I would like to say that honestly, the bombings that took place in Catalonia are a horrific event of the Spanish civil war. We are totally convinced that we need to remember them today even more than ever. There is a positive side to it, even if it's tricky to use the word positive here, right? My city, Rose, became or was at the pangart in order to defend its civil population. That was a very important event that took place. The building of the anti-air strike shelters in Rose was the result of the active role of the civil population. And that's quite significant. This was led by trade unions with the participation of millions and thousands of men and women who participated in building these shelters, which are still there. And they are amazing civil engineering works that way we can all visit and we should all remember because it allows us to understand how terrified the civil population was. So it's important to remember them all. The Catalan Parliament is deeply committed with public memory policies. As you know, the Spanish democracy is weak and one of its imperfections after four years of dictatorship has to do with not underlying sufficiently the memory and the rescue of the republicans. That died fighting for freedom. Those who offered their lives to fight against fascism, to defend themselves and during the Franco period to get organized and set up a resistance group against fascism and fascism. New regulations will be passed shortly in the Catalan Parliament to give rights and freedoms not to those who fought because they are almost all dead, but to their relatives who have the right to know where they are, to remember those who fought Franco because they were heroes. They were heroes who said no to fascism and we should always have them at heart. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Good morning everyone and thank you very much also to the organizers for your kind invitation and thank you very much for your kind words. First of all, I would like to say something which is very obvious but also very clear. You, people in London and Great Britain, you won the war and we, Republican and Democrat Catalonia lost the war. So you, your democracy fought and won over fascism and fascism as a military coup was part of our country causing a war and since then we spent more than 40 years of a cruel, furious repression, very difficult. And I'm saying that because here we gather many researchers, many university specialists and you always, from the very beginning, since 1946-1947, you have been able to do some research in a very scientific and rigorous way about the series of facts, but we couldn't do it until post-democracy because in 1976 and 1978 there were many books on the history of war and post-war that had to be edited in a new era. We have been in exile with editorials in foreign countries and until very recently we have not been able to read many of these research. Luckily we have many and very good ones such as the representation that we have here. Second thing I would like to say, I would like to touch upon and maybe talking about my colleague who started talking about his mother and this is a more professional question maybe, if we take a look at archives on memory, oral and written archives of history, if we take a look at what we call the biographies and memories of different people. There are a couple of things which we can hear repeatedly all the time and I'm referring to what my colleague was saying. Two things which mark a trauma especially according to my consultation with women and the rear guard which are terrible consequence for the population. One the bombings and the other one is the entry of the fast faces troops, so the defeat of the war. In different research groups and with the group of research of Ramon Arnavath who is going to address you later on after lunch and he will present all the interactive and interesting map. We presented a couple of years of work at the University of Glasgow about trauma, nostalgia and memory which is centered in women who suffer this civil war in Catalonia and as you will understand in the rear guard until the entry of the facist troops. There was hunger, there was violence, but the predominant facts are the impact suffer due to the bombing and the entry and the defeat of the facist troops. Among other papers, if I take a look at the discourse of these archives and these sources from women who lived through the war, the most repeated words are fear, suffering, being afraid of not to be able to withstand the situation, shaking, crying, worrying, terror, panic, disaster, hell, death, tension and horror and many many times. Let me start by this panic and terror and being afraid of bombs although you will talk about it later. Whether you are from Barcelona or Catalonia or you are from London and I would like to talk about this bombarding. These were systematic bombardings which had not happened before in our country and not even the military authorities could know about the consequences and in my region, especially although Noeid has already mentioned that, which are the regions of Camp de Tarragona and the south of Catalonia, what we call Camp de Tarragona and Terras de Lebre. The first bombs that dropped in Catalonia were precisely in this territory, Flish on the 23rd and 24th of February 1937. It has been said here that there was a military objective, there was a manufacturing site, but the bombs fell in the middle of the population, so in the discriminate attack and the manufacturing site continued to work but personal damage were highly costly. A few days later bombs on Tortosa and in March bombarding all over Catalonia, the North, Tremp, Badalona next to Barcelona or once again over Tortosa. February 1937, in the region of Tarragona, Terras de Lebre, they suffer attacks practically of all the existing modalities of warfare and with bombardings which were coming from powerful planes, train motors, buy motors and hydro planes. These hydro planes were unknown in my region and people started to talk about them such as Hydros, Hydros, Hydros, Isidro which is a name, a popular name which is the Catholic and Saint patron of people who work in the fields. Usually people started to talk about hydro planes, they call them Isidros which is a popular name in Spain, so that was something which has never been seen before. Yes, it is true, it has been said in the conference by the previous specialists, there were some alerts and the first orders in Tarragona on the 12th of October 1936 where they were alert in the population of possible bombings. And they were given some advice of course and instructions if they hear the sirens, they should turn off the lights, they should close themselves in the house not to walk around the street, but these recommendations were about things that will never happen. They thought they will never happen. And that was August, sorry October, she says of 1936. March 1937 the bombarding started to be systematic. Here in the first days people thought that everything will continue the same, it will be just an anecdote and they also thought that they will not bombard the civil population and they were completely naive in this sense. And since then they started to organize themselves and as my colleague has said they started to create this refuge. I don't know if you are aware of Tarragona de Tarraco Imperial and in Tarragona we were able to use a series of archeological tunnels between the circus, the forum, the amphitheater, the Roman theater which were underground corridors where people could hide. We're talking about the city of 34,000 inhabitants. Many of them flew to the countryside and although we tried to keep a normal situation, life was not longer normal because for example one year after the war 19th of July 1937 Tarragona 34 bombs. The following day, 15 kilometers away, 3,000 inhabitants, 25 bombs creating a terrible situation especially Italian and German bombing. The sirens were not working. The air defense was not enough and there was a lack of shelter among many of these regions. Let me tell you some examples in the city of Tarragona. Abiasio legionaria Italia legio condor Germany and Brigada Hispana de Bombarderos. In Tarragona 144 attacks by 500 destroyed falset which was known as the Catalan Guernica. It is a beautiful place, a small place, a small village, falset. I don't know if you are aware of this place. You must be aware of the wines of the priorat. If you don't know them, I invite you to taste them because they are very nice. I'm saying that because falset and the regions next to falset are full of British citizens who come to visit not only with the excuse of the wines but also they like to visit and travel through the paths of their family members of these international brigades and also all the museums that have been built around the Battle of Ebro. Since our moderator has also talked about women, let me talk very briefly about the British nurses. The British nurses who not only due to their daily work but also because of their teachings by training Spanish nurses, Catalan nurses, international nurses who were at the front of the Ebro. A couple of them who had in honour with her patients Etne and Ada Hudson and I recommend you the studies by Angela Jackson who wrote the Doctoral thesis, British women and the Spanish Civil War. It has been published in English, Rootledge 2002 and I also recommend you another essay which is Beyond the Battle Front, Testimony Memory of the Hospital of the Spanish Civil War in Catalan and in English. In 2007, one novel by Angela Jackson which is called Warm Earth and you have it also in both languages. Angela Jackson continues to live in El Priorat and she's one of the activists of these spaces of historic model and she's still involved in the preservation of this historic memory from an association which is called Don't Give Up on Memory. From here, 1938, another terrible fact I was mentioning, the bombs on the one hand during the war and the entry of the fascist troops at the end of the war and the beginning of repression, 40 years of darkness, terror, impune, killing and systematic repression against individual freedoms and national freedoms. An absolute demophobia and people who live through this experience or has done some research on this experience, often we are going through the attitudes and I tell my students, date and people who live through this experience or has done some research on this experience, often we are going through the attitudes statements and behaviours of the current Spanish government recently and sometimes the university, I teach Catalan literature of the 20th century and I cover the period of the pre-war and the war and recently I tell my students to take some articles or discourses, I read them to my students and in the end I tell them what media do they come from? What date? My students say from that media but 2016, 2017 they say 2015 and then I tell them no. This is in this media, this other media but it's 1937, 1938, 1941. This could seem like an anecdote which I can tell you about my classes by playing with these discourses. But you also have a report in English which has been published by the Ombudsman of Catalonia in which there is a whole study about the democratic regression of the Spanish state nowadays. You have it online in Catalan, Spanish and English. I recommend you to read it. Talking about this historical memory, let me also tell you to conclude that the spokesman of the UN, Pablo de Greif, as he did in 2014, he's doing it again in 2017, he has officially requested the Spanish state to listen to the petitions of the victims of Frankism and the Franco regime. To give priority to these burials and to reconsider, we mentioned that before, El Valle de los Caedas to cancel the court sentences adopted during dictatorship. 2014-16 the UN spokesman continues under the same situation and will continue the same as far as the Spanish government. No gesture in favour of historical memory, not a Euro of budget and never a Germany did. We have ever requested forgiveness, just the opposite. They have never requested forgiveness. A couple of days ago there was the burial of minister of Franco, someone who had been a minister under Franco and we saw the burial with everybody raising their arms and singing fascist hymns. Such as Caral Sol. Therefore these things are happening. We are going through a regression. We are kind of travelling back in time, but this is terrible towards anti-democratic and dictator times. Let me conclude by telling you that we are here, those of you who are specialists of bombarding at the time that we don't want these facts to happen again. We are here to remember people who have been buried in these non-identified forces, people who were brought to court, who were taken to concentration camps. In summary, let's don't repeat that and let's remember above all with other policies of memories that this is the will of so many victims and so many people who die for democracy. Those who have inherited the rights of those people who fought in favour of democracy and peace. Thank you very much. We have got 15-20 minutes for contributions and questions, so I am going to throw the floor open to you in the time I am a manager, just put your hand up in here and I will call you. As always there is a silence at the beginning, but good. Hello. Can you hear me? Good morning everyone. I am Marina Falco, the director of Foreign Relations for the Catalan Government. First of all, I am delighted to be here in London. It is a city I consider home and I am really happy to be able to be here commemorating these events. Thank you to the organisers for this. I would also like to take the opportunity to express the condolences in the name of the Catalan Government for the terrible attacks that happened in Manchester. My voice breaks a little bit as I say that because I woke up this morning with this news and I am still shocked and frustrated that these people with these acts of terror still managed somehow to spread the fear amongst our populations. Somehow the fact that we are here talking about this today is, as you were saying, Chris, an act of no matter what we do, we are going to fight against this and we are carrying on with our lives. So congratulations as well for this. I just wanted to do a contribution. It's not a question as I couldn't talk earlier, but a little bit in line with the colleagues, Mr Nwet and Mrs Palau. They have both remarked how everyone pretty much in Catalonia has memories in their families of what happened during the Civil War. We all have relatives that somehow suffer it. You have explained your examples. I also have several examples in my family. And I want to point out what Mrs Palau just said that is so sad that the Spanish government still has not, to this date, condemned any of the atrocities that happened during the Civil War as unbelievable, unbelievable as this may sound. But I think it's also important to remark that, contrary wise, the Catalan government actually do so. I think I can say that we have the conviction that it is our obligation towards our people and those who suffer in our country to actually establish public policies towards this historical memory. It's actually one of our priorities. Actually in the department that I represent, the department is called Foreign Affairs, but also institutional relations and transparency and historical memory is something that we put a lot of effort on. We undertake this task with the main aim to recover and to commemorate such historical events like the ones we are talking about today. But also to remember and to homage all those who were victims for ideological reasons, all those that suffered repression during the 40 years of the Franco dictatorship, all those that had to go in exile. I have examples in my family of that as well. And especially those who were deported to prisons and concentration camps. Actually my colleague Albert Royo in his speech was mentioning that just two weeks ago we actually were in Machausen, the Nazi concentration camp in Austria, where 3,000 Catalans were deported and about 1,200 died there. Also a few English people were there. So we were there not just to kind of commemorate but also to remember what these people fought for. They fought to make sure that we would live nowadays in a more free and more democratic society. It is very important to remember this every day and especially to do it amongst young people. People that perhaps they don't have fresh memories as we do but it's important that they go there and they experience and they understand what happened. So because we think that actually by remembering these events, hopefully there will be less chances of them happening again, of these young people kind of recreating them again. So that's why it's so important to work in this historical memory. In terms of our policies, of our programs, the ones that we develop as Catalan government, I also would like to mention a little bit what we do. We run very specific programs such as for example the creation of a database of former political prisoners. We have a project to search and identify war victims in war yell pits. Also Mike Albert was mentioning before how we have all these people that were killed during the war and now they are buried, spread all over different roads. No one knows where these pits are and we have a specific project trying to find where these people are and trying to find out who and match with all these lists of disappeared people. We are running and we have developed a genetic identification program which actually is considered one of the pioneers in Europe. And thanks to that we have managed to do this match with this list of disappeared people and the ones and the remaining that we are finding in these war yell pits. So at least families know where they are and can bury them in proper conditions. Alongside we are also working in the promotion of historical memory by doing workshops, by doing conferences. We have a witness video recording series, all these especially target to young people as I was saying before because they are the ones that are important to recollect these stories and these memory. I am saying all that just to illustrate that how the Catalan government believes that it is necessary to exercise and recognize and dignify the memory and that is why debates like the ones we are having here today are so important. So just thanking all of you today for being here and really looking forward to everyone else's contributions. Thank you so much. Thank you Marina. Anyone else? Questions? Thank you very much. If you don't mind I'll ask the question in Catalan which is my mother tongue. I would like to ask the speakers what is the support of the parliament on a bill presented by Askerra Republicana de Catalunya to withdraw Franco symbols in Catalan municipalities which unfortunately, well the civil population, these are the citizens of these villages who have had to remove these signs with using their own tools and withdrawing all these symbols, these Franco symbols. The census of these Franco signs have been carried out by let's say the citizenship because year 2007 unbelievable but we still find Franco signs scattered around the territory. This would be my first question both for both MPs, Catalan MPs. What is the reaction of the Catalan parliament on the commission on memory about the referendum of the tortoise monument? I don't know if our English guests are aware of that. In tortoise there is a massive Franco monument with a massive bird that has been there for ages in the middle of the river, of the Ibro river. And the parliament asked for its withdrawal but unfortunately the city mayor, German Bell, well they launched a local referendum to ask tortoise citizens whether they wanted to withdraw the monument or not. And the citizens decided not to withdraw the monument. So how is the parliament going to react to such referendum? Well first of all, regarding the first question we are in a process of withdrawing Franco signs in Leida, for example the city mayor asked citizens to get their tools and get started. I think this is positive, this is participatory right, in other cities. It's a city council who is in charge of withdrawing them such as in Tarragona. In Tarragona the mayor is socialist from the socialist party and in Tarragona the withdrawal of all these Franco symbols has already started so it really depends. Of course there is a very vast will to withdraw them. All these citizens who are deeply mobilized are very active and we really embrace this participation. We need to keep going, it's in small towns in bigger cities, it's a little bit more difficult. The parliament, the Catalan parliament voted on this bill you mentioned in order to withdraw this big monument in Tortosa, this Franco monument in Tortosa, to be demolished. But even if some political parties abstained in the voting because they argued that local democracy should prevail and there was a referendum forcing a few months later a referendum in which the mayor asked whether citizens wanted to demolish the monument or not. And the question was would you like to demolish the monument or let's say reconvert it, it's just horrifying every time you drive past it, it's horrifying. Well this is an outstanding topic, our bill on historic memory will someday force them to demolish it because it's a regional bill. All political parties, almost all political parties except for the more modern ones have been in office in Tortosa, all of them, they have had the possibility to develop memory policies and none of them has. So we should take that into account sometimes, we name and shame others but we are also cowards when it comes to taking these dignifying measures. So careful with that I would say. Let's all remember also, as I said at the beginning of my presentation, you won the war, we lost the war and there was a terror climber started by deep silence then we moved into the, well if you don't speak about it, it will not even exist. And now we're in a third stage in which we are somehow re-experiencing this trauma, this shock. So younger generations are the brave ones, are the ones that can somehow start from scratch. In many homes, in many families, people didn't even know that our grandparent is missing, no one said anything. Well he died in war, don't say anything, silence was imposed during Franco's dictatorship so let's be optimistic, let's enforce this bill on memory and let's put an end to impunity, absolutely. Well, I would like to echo my colleagues' words, let's all remember that the traumatism, the trauma caused by war and the dictatorship has been a long lasting effect, hunger, repression. Let's bear in mind, by the way, that the period after war was marked by hunger. Many, many people were starving, as Montsepillau said in many families, no one wanted even to mention the relatives who went missing during the war and that's why it's extremely important to promote sound public policies, memory policies because we need to carry out a collective task to overcome this trauma and reinterpret this historical period. It needs to be said that both the Bill on Historic Memory from 2007 and another Bill from 2016 should not make it possible for the Tertosa monument to keep standing. The Bill of the Spanish Parliament bans fascist and Franco signs and so does the Catalan Parliament Bill. Of course, the demolishment of this monument is not easy, it's not a small thing, it's a massive structure in the middle of the Ebro river. So, you know, even the biofiloscaeos is quite polemic because the reinterpretation of this fascist monument is not easy to carry out, but still we need to put it on the table because if such massive visual signs are not debated well, they will be integrated in our society and fascist symbols will become normal. In a democracy that shouldn't be the case and the law states that so my personal position is that the Tertosa monument needs to be gone soon. Let me finish by saying that the Historic Memory Bill passed in 2007 was an important step forward. It was a milestone in fact, but it left two stones unturned, let's say. On the first hand, the people that went missing in Spain, there is a debate about how many people went missing. It's between 100,000 and 110,000 that were buried anonymously in the middle of nowhere, oftentimes in the same very place where they were shot in the middle of a road near Cementries. So, this is a terrible fact and it means that any democratic country that faces such past reality cannot reconcile with its democratic history. So, we need to overcome this. In Catalonia, this is a small percentage because, of course, a while ago the Catalan government developed or passed a bill on this sense that really helped dignify these missing people. On the other hand, we need to talk about Franco trials. Only in Catalonia, 70,000 people were judged in military courts and in a few hours and without any previous ruling, they were judged, condemned and executed. In many cases, more than 3,600 people were executed and these regulations, well, they have not been banned. Catalonia is now promoting a bill to revert the situation because these people that were executed were not criminals, they were heroes who fought for freedom in Catalonia. Well, and directly complex realities without being really acquainted with these complex realities. We need to first understand and then act. This is a process and memory is a process. And sometimes the process is even more interesting than the outcome. The report that we carried out, the non-binding report that we carried out with the support of experts from different fields, well, the recommendation was the following. It was recommended that the 212 Franco monuments to, well, to be kept and not destroyed because they allow us to understand the situation, they allow us to understand the period. The first monument we assessed was the one in Port Bo right in the border with France and beyond the exile memorial. We maintained this Port Bo monument for young people, for citizens to understand the importance of Port Bo in the total occupation of Catalonia. So I would say this didactic task is now over and I'm a big defender of this heritage because it helps us educate our youth people. Having said that, I'm extremely interested in reparation policies so let's not make the mistake of acting without knowing because sometimes we do. We do. We need to be brave, we need to carry out long term memory policies and allocate a sound budget to memory policies and you know that. The government knows it. Experts know it. We need a budget to understand what a symbol is about so that's a reflection I want to share with you. There have been commissions. Articles have been published. We have now some maps. We have now some databases. We've been talking about databases, open databases in fact. So we have all the lists which are published in different websites. There is no, well, war councils by region, by provinces and you know articles have been published in the sense of I urge you to act on the basis of knowledge. Public policies are very necessary but they need to be well informed on evidence. As mayor and representative of a Catalan village and as a person who is more or less acquainted with the sensitivity of mayors around historic memory I would say that most Catalan villages have done their homework and with drone Franco symbols. A lot has been done even before this bill was passed and maybe we could reveal that right and the Democratic Memorial did a great task also to boost all these measures. Also I would like to consider that the Rodriguez-Sapatero bill on historic memory was a big step forward insufficient but a first step forward that one should embrace. And it's I would say a positive expression of the Spanish Parliament to go ahead in terms of historic memory. We need to embrace them. We need to appropriate them and transform them if necessary. And you know I did use my tools to withdraw flags myself back in the 70s. I believe all the work that has been done from the government needs to be underlined since we established the Democratic Memorial quite a lot has been done and I believe city councils have also contributed to this task and even more so the civil society. Before the Democratic Memorial was set up many civil society organizations worked to recover our democratic memory to intervene in our region etc. So I would say that the key point here and even in Catalonia we have moved even farther than in other regions of Spain. It's because the government is placing quite a lot of stake in there but also the civil society organizations for example it's been stuck for a few years thanks to the work carried out by city councils and I believe this is important to understand why in Catalonia we are doing a little bit better than in other places even if we face limitations and challenges for sure. Can I be rude? Is it allowed in Spain? I'm really very disappointed with the presentation because it seems to me that what's happening here is very introverted. First of all the dialogue has been candidly very parochial. It's about Catalan problems and you're in London and I don't know why you don't have these discussions. Maybe it's a dynamic that's useful to you to be more candid than you can be at home. But I presented to Oriol and Kamui our book about Hiroshima Nagasaki and what we tried to do with that book was not to look back and have a memory. We wanted to move forward and I think you were touching on this. The memory is nostalgia. It's an industry as well I have to say. Memory is an industry for many people. What we're really about is trying to create a more peaceful world and it's mission impossible we think when we read the news today for example. But what I found this morning disappointing I will only say. First of all welcome to London. It's very nice to see you here. I don't know your part of Spain and I'd love to go. I'm also a Republican at heart. But I think if we're going to move forward what we do the undertaking with the Hiroshima Nagasaki book was to try to understand why the Japanese behaved so badly which in turn allowed the Americans to behave so badly to bomb Japan. And I looked back and what I saw I'd been to Nagasaki in 1974 and I'd been in Spain in 1970 and I was and I'm a Catholic by birth not by inclination but what happened was that we Europeans went to Asia. And starting with the Spanish and the Portuguese quickly followed by the British and the Dutch and we behaved unspeakably badly with the sanction of the popes. Two great bulls really gave our buccaneers as we call them the liberty to misbehave. So when we talk about the Japanese you I think it's right to say the Spanish didn't suffer particularly from Japanese cruelty is it correct. I mean other people did but you didn't. So for many other people their memories of Japanese unkindness and gross cruelty but what we did and I was taking some criticism for this I said why did the Japanese behave so badly and I think I showed the mayor earlier on one cartoon from a French newspaper. Yeah sure sorry unfortunately I can't say this afternoon not all afternoon anyway but I'm just asking you please because I don't have time to labour this point if some of the energy that went into memory and the memory industry to put it bluntly. If some of that energy went into understanding the nationalists why why did Franco behave so badly why why were they so cruel. That would be a very interesting seminar to come to and you're quite capable of doing that so next time if it's here or in in Catalonia let's talk about reconciliation and reconciliation can only come from understanding the opposition. We have to love our enemies you know whether we're Christians or not we have to love our enemies and memory doesn't seem to be about loving our enemies it seems to be about elaborating the pain our pain but not understanding their pain they had pain too. I'm sorry I don't mean to be impolite but I want to be helpful in asking you to jump out of memory into the future. That's a very interesting debate. That's a very interesting point absolutely. A society like the Spanish society or the Catalan society when we try and understand our historic memory we do it by trying to understand that the civil war was won by the fascists here in London. Maybe things can be seen from another perspective because the fascists were beaten but we know that fascism can be seen from a different perspective. We know that fascism spent 40 years in Spain to let's say rebuild their memories so Democrats, Republicans those who were beaten, we know that fascism a very important thing of the American society. those who are beaten, we need a time to recover. The Spanish democracy in 40 years should have carried out all this memory task, but unfortunately it has not been the case. Some measures have been undertaken, but it's not enough, and that's why memory policies are still essential in order to precisely reconcile, as you were saying, a reconciliation that we look forward to. But I believe reconciliation is not possible without previous justice. Without justice, it's very difficult to move forward. I totally agree in the sense that reconciliation doesn't happen when there's pain and when both sides are not equal or balanced in treatment. I don't think memory is nostalgia. Well, sometimes it is, sometimes it is, but not always. And I would like to refer to some papers published in the year 2011 as a result of a workshop that took place in Paris, organised by several universities called called POR QUA SE SUVENIR, WHY REMEMBERING, many, many articles. And I would like to summarise all these articles by quoting the late Umberto Eco. Umberto Eco said that memory is not necessarily nostalgia, but rather memory allows us to understand individually and collectively where we come from and memory will allow us to understand where we are and where we are headed. And I believe it's here where all these memory policies needs to, let's say, look ahead also, not only backwards. We need to include different perspectives into these memory policies because reconciliation is not possible if the wounds are still alive or at least on one side because for the last 45 years we've only heard silence. Thank you. A Guidovalio, I'm the director of the Museum of Resistance and Second World War in Torino, Italy. Last week for the International Museum Day we organised with ICOM, the regional committee of ICOM, a workshop about the difficult or dissonant heritage. And I think that we all dealing with the 20th century have to face dissonant or difficult memories and heritage. I think that, well, you are right when you say we don't have to be nostalgic and look only at the past. You're right. I think that the problem is that all museums or other institutions dealing with the 20th century are in a balance between memory and history. And we are in this moment for the Second World War in a sort of a turning point, all direct witnesses are disappearing and so on. I think that the solution can be to have more history and to look, but knowing that if we have to do with a non-shared memory, because in Italy still that period is not the object of a shared, actually shared memory, but the solution I think is the history and is to understand that what happened in those years is very important to explain and to understand what we are today. And this was a bit the idea of our museum. Thank you. I would like to ask both speakers the debates in Catalonia and the debate in the parliament about the new Catalan law of memory. Does it take into account the need to build a shared collective memory among all Europeans? I think this is a challenge that we are facing all the peoples of Europe of trying to go and advance in this same line in order to be able to understand the complexity of history. Is it really necessary that Catalonia and Spain was it necessary to be 40 years under dictatorships to stop the Soviets coming from the east? This is important for Catalan people, but also for Spanish and European people. All together we are all responsible for history and this is just an example of what we should try to do among us, trying to build this collective and shared memory and maybe this European-European label in this debate. Are we aware in Catalonia and in Spain that we need to build this shared memory? Do we take into account the memories of the rest of peoples of Europe? Are we able to build this shared memory? Thank you. On the one hand, and I'm talking as a Catalan Member of Parliament, we do not have many of the necessary competencies and there is a will at least from the management of democratic memory to introduce a good legislation on memory, taking into account all the historical aspects. This is a very interesting perspective, but I go back to the beginning of my presentation. Jordi has said that consensus and budget and future and possibilities are a factor and I do believe that we do have the possibility and in the future I would like to create a law on historical memory, very specific and from here we will see what happens in the future. Allow me to be and to have a very sceptical attitude because this law on memory, 2007 and Zapatero law on memory, I don't know if it's going to happen because there is no will of it happening so in this sense we go back to facing a wall so this will be my opinion. Yes, you have to think that the Spanish republicans and Catalan republicans in 1945 when Hitler and Mussolini were defeated, they believed in their hearts that the next defeat will be the one of Franco and that democracy in Europe was never going to stop at the Pyrenees. We didn't know how but it was impossible to think that the free Europe would stop at the Pyrenees with the fascist dictatorship of Franco but this is what happened and this created the divergence of 40 years and nowadays has some political effects on our country. Not all of the past because of course 40 years of democracy in Spain have rebuilt many of the richest countries and villages of the European Union but we still have some pending questions and in Spain the public debate, parliamentary debate on the law on memory still causes the first debate, things that cannot be understood if we look back 40 years and we have to be able to connect our memory with the European memory. It is impossible that in Berlin or Rome there is a street dedicated to Hitler or Mussolini but in Madrid it is possible and if it's possible it points to the fact that something is failing in Spain.