 As the country continues to move towards more progressive conversation about the role of minorities in historically black institutions and training minorities for a variety of industries, particularly during a time of racial tension, one of the industries in focus is advertising and marketing. Here to talk with us about that today is David Griner. He's an innovation editor at Ed Week and actually advanced the conversation in a hyper speed kind of way recently in recent weeks as he talked about the role of HBCUs and preparing graduates in this particular industry of advertising and marketing. And so we're here today to talk about a little of those elements and a broader spectrum on the role of African Americans, Latinos, Latino X communities in this realm. So David, I really appreciate your time today, man. Oh, it's an honor. I'm really excited for this conversation, but looking forward to it. What motivated you to kind of put out there the conversation in a really honest and frank way about, you know, where are African Americans and minority communities in this industry? And why we got to do a better job of being more inclusive in the industry? I mean, I guess the way I would put it is, you know, like hopefully like a lot of folks over the last year, I've been really looking for ways to help address all these issues that have been going on for so many years. And sadly, until the last year, I think so much of it was remained under the surface and hadn't really been discussed in the way it should be. And I really tried to just take stock of my own role in that. I've been with Adweek in various roles for about 15 years now, and it's the largest marketing publication on the planet. And so, you know, we're blessed with a platform, with a team that values inclusion and DEI across the board. So it's not like there's, it's not like there's any tension internally. It's just a matter of knowing where and how we can, we can help. It's also obviously a personal passion for me. I grew up in Alabama. I still live in Alabama. I've been surrounded by HBCUs my whole life, and they've been such a huge part of every community I've lived in. And so it's always been kind of surreal to me that they're not more of a topic of discussion in the marketing community and in advertising, right? And that's certainly not at all a slide on any programs that are out there. It's just a matter of every industry has its kind of, its paths, its pipelines that feed up and marketing's and advertising, they have them. They have these pipelines and they're, you know, homogenous to say it politely. They're white and affluent to say it more directly. And yeah, I just wanted to know more about the folks that have come up through different paths than the traditional portfolio schools and some of these ways that people get into advertising, which are very expensive and very specific. And I just wanted to learn more about that. So the last few weeks have been having as many conversations as people will make time for me to talk to HBCU grads, faculty, professors. And it's been it's been amazing and just learning so much. And I just really appreciate all the time people have had to have those conversations. What's what's been among the more enlightening elements that you've heard about, particularly from the faculty. And I tell you what the reason why I ask that it's one thing for students to say, I want to be in this industry. And it's another thing for the faculty who are pushing them towards these careers and helping them to network and getting them prepared for the actual applied, you know, science of advertising and marketing. What what have they kind of what kind of feedback have they given you? I'll say something that's been really refreshing with the faculty side is something I don't see much in state schools and in a lot of other schools is they're really working to modernize these programs. A lot of the the mass communications programs that I spoke to people from didn't even exist a few years ago. I mean, this is a evolving, maturing space. And it's it's so great to see that it's so great. And it's it's being driven from the inside. And in a lot of cases, kind of from the bottom up in the sense of I don't think it's necessarily like these high level administrators saying we need to expand these programs. It's the professors and the alumni really pushing these. And so that's been really wonderful to to talk to them about as they know that there's still room for and to be clear. Every school is failing in this regard. My own school, University of Missouri, really was so late to adapt all of its programs from advertising to journalism, which I came up through. And so this is across the board. But I would say the HBCUs are actually better positioned than most to to be more nimble. I think they listen to their faculty a little more consistently than a lot of these state schools and definitely Ivy League. And again, I don't know anything about Ivy League schools. I've had no no exposure to that world, you know, growing up in rural Alabama, then going up, you know, through Missouri. But but, you know, I I think in summary, there's a lot of will to do it. There's a lot of concern that the schools are not communicating with each other enough to consolidate their resources and their planning. And there's also concerns that the alumni networks aren't being activated in a really kind of strategic way where it's like everyone's everyone supports each other because they want to because they believe in each other as alumni and students. But there's there again, I mean, coming in as an outsider, there does not seem to be a lot of programs to really help make that happen. Do you think that that's something that the industry should take a more active role in trying to change within the academic enterprise? So we see in STEM a lot, for example, they'll invest in academic infrastructure and scholarships and faculty fellowships to try to make for a better graduate. You see what a building a computer, right? Do you think that that the ad industry should do that? Yeah, 100 percent. I mean, to see the announcement coming out of Apple what just a few days ago, right? That's what a hundred million dollar project on top of a hundred million dollar commitment they had already made before that. And, you know, I think the brands, the companies have really been driving that those initiatives in the tech space to your point in STEM. And I am certainly not saying that there's nothing out there like that for marketing and advertising. I just have not stumbled across much of it yet. And every time I ask people, are there programs? Because, you know, without getting into too much detail, this is something I'm really willing to put in the work for. Like I'm willing to whatever whatever role I can play in helping to resolve that. I know a ton of recruiters in advertising and marketing. They are passionate about diversity. And so like the appetites there, right? We just need better systems in place to really, again, a wider pipeline, a more innovative pipeline that brings people up through non-traditional background, traditional here being like the same advertising schools over and over where people have to work unsustainable wages or make tremendous sacrifices just to get the schooling they need and accumulate tons of debt. No one should have to enter. You know, no one should have to go through that to enter any industry, much less advertising. You're not going to make a ton of money. So it's it's one where you shouldn't be. It's not like being a doctor, right? Like you can't pay off that debt in any sort of really timely way. So, yeah, I think I think the I don't have a lot of optimism. The agencies will play a big role in solving that. Agencies are notoriously cash poor compared to consultancies and these kind of huge companies and their clients. That said, I hope they will because they're they certainly have the jobs. They certainly have the interest and they have the pressure coming from inside and outside to diversify both at the lower staffing levels and in the leadership levels. So, yeah, I mean, I think they I don't think it's a to, you know, to summarize my rambling. I don't think it's something that the HBCU should have to solve, right? I think the employer should be should be beating down their door wanting to help solve this because they see all the benefits of this talent pipeline and of all this talent that's out there that they are not listening to and thinking of. Do you think there's any real pressure for that? And the reason I lead in that direction is because we see often companies get it so wrong in terms of messaging and creative that that is designed to speak to diversity or diverse audiences and it's offensive or at the very least it misses the mark of what was intended. But what's the what's the true penalty? Like, you don't really see a lot like, you know, we're going to boycott Pepsi because of, you know, Jenner's, you know, thing about, you know, rate, you know, protests and nobody's boycott Pepsi. I mean, so what's the price that you pay to say, yeah, it's more worthwhile to get more people of color involved in some of this creative development? Yeah, I mean, that's a great point. And I think time and again, we've seen you know, these conversations flare up, whether it's through through Black Twitter or through mainstream news coverage, you know, we'll see something really go wrong, right, from a brand. And there's a lot of immediate backlash. But then to your point in the long term, I don't think they really do pay much of a penalty and obviously over the past year and and namely after the death of George Floyd and we started to see companies really being held accountable from their own employees. But then so much of that, you know, drifted off and that. And it kind of, again, getting back to the start of this conversation you know, over the last year, I think anyone who has let themselves care less about these issues. And again, I mean, I'm speaking here as a as a white guy, you know, it's like it's on us to to keep the momentum going. We can't expect, you know, it's sorry for the tangent here. Yesterday was Martin Luther King Day and I'm in Birmingham and his letter from Birmingham Jail is as a lot of your listeners know. But but as is misunderstood by my white folks is that it's not a letter to the Klu Klux Klan or to, you know, to bull conners saying quit being racist. It's a letter to white moderates saying quit telling us to get away with this. Quit telling us to be to stop being so demanding, you know. And I it's something I have had on my mind so much over the last nine months. And then yesterday, I finally saw people sharing that message because every year people are like, oh, it's a great man. It's a great message. I'm like, no, man, really read it. And so it's something where I think we have to keep that that momentum going. And yeah, I mean, I think there's the momentum there. We just are. I mean, there's the the will there. There's just not the momentum. Yeah, it's funny about that, you know, the what interesting and ironically what is lost in that letter is it was from a jail. Like if you if you really emphasize that boy, he wrote a letter in the jail, then you kind of get to the get to the heart of the issue. And I yeah, it's I will say that every year I read it. I read a letter from Birmingham jail every year on on Martin Luther King Day. And and wow, it just it hits me harder every year. And every year I want it to be less relevant, you know what I mean? Like I wanted to hit me less hard. But again, it is it is a message to it to us wanting very literally to the white moderates to to stop telling people to be patient, right? And for change and justice. So again, sorry for the. No, no, no, no, it's not just for it's not just for an OK day. And I appreciate that. Let's talk about the you touched on this a little bit about the role of agencies because we know that there are some successful minority creative operations out there. But they typically get called for just that, you know, let's talk about, you know, Home Depot, Retour your school for HBCs. Let's talk about, you know, a particular campaign for Rihanna that we think can target minority customers. Is there something that in this corporate awakening on race where you see that some of these agencies will get the call up to do more? I don't want to say traditional. That's not the right word. But what work that is beyond the scope of let's go get some black and Hispanic folks to buy something. Yeah, I mean, that's my my personal dream, right, is that some of these shops that really build a rip, because it makes sense. If you're going to start an agency right now, like in 2021 or whenever, like, don't try to be the agency that's everything to everybody, right? That's a waste of money. You're competing with people who have hundreds of millions of dollars. But if you create an agency, so you're like, OK, what do I know? You know, I know the folks from my background. I know that folks from my position in the world, I can speak to them. So it makes total sense. Like, I don't ever want anything to sound like I'm diminishing, you know, the importance and the value of those of those kinds of agencies, those kinds of marketing experts. But I think once you prove yourself to your point, you should absolutely be given an even bigger seat at the table every single day. And I take I take some optimism in the fact that a few years ago, I felt like no mainstream marketers had really heard of Burrell communications in Chicago and and, you know, now it's there. They've gotten so much more attention in the last few years. I think the name is well known. You look at a company like Community, which used to be Communidad in Florida, I believe, and they started out as a multicultural agency, and they've expanded way beyond that and they're doing and they did that by saying, well, if we're going to make this ad for your telecom, how about we make go ahead while we're here? We'll record the the white English language version, too. And they made those opportunities happen. And so I think it's happening. And I think we're seeing people like Nate Nichols, who runs Pallet Group, and he also created the Allyship and Action Organization, which I'm a huge fan of Nate's front to back. But I think what he's done, both in tandem of creating Allyship and Action and Pallet Group, his creative agency and and it pallet groups blowing up like that is a an extension of Nate's visibility from creating this entire organization about trying to get more marketers to support DEI initiatives in a more tangible way. And so, you know, we are seeing mainstream kind of growth and success. But in the end, you have just such established agencies and such established channels that I think it's going to be a long time before we start to see a multicultural agency really become a global player. It could happen, but it's a hard road, you know. Do you think that from the educational perspective, at least in encouraging graduates or even undergraduates who are training for this to start their own agencies, or should they look to to borrow kind of a niche with some of these, you know, predominantly white or even minority owned or minority operated firms? What's the best route to make something new or to get into something established and do a new thing for them? I mean, you know, follow your heart. Like I can think of so many people who tried creating something new and it didn't work out because they lack the practical experience that they needed to get the clients to do the work to win the pitches. I worked in advertising for eight years and I feel like I was just barely figuring it out when I left the agency, you know. And so you do, it helps. I'm not going to say you need that, but it helps to have that practical experience before you set off on your own. But at the same time, if you're coming out of school or whatever with a really unique skill set that's highly valuable, man, don't don't. Yeah, don't give it to someone else for, you know, $40,000 a year of your time. Like go go start it, build your business. And I think we've seen examples of both when you're able to make that balance. Not to kind of jump to a slightly different topic, but this is the one I. I don't know. I don't know that none of us have obviously figured out solution for this. But I think the biggest holdup is that you see agencies are willing to hire more diverse town, especially agencies that have I was talking to someone who worked at a PR agency PR agencies are notoriously again at risk of generalizing. It's a lot of white women. OK. And and I always joke like it's it's like 150 white women working for three middle-aged white men. Correct. That's the leadership structure of PR agencies. And it is starting to change. I am certainly not saying that they're not addressing that. But, you know, I was talking to a guy who came up through an HBCU. He went to work at a honestly at almost all of the major PR agencies. And in every single one, he was the only person of color. He's in often case the only man, but of course, being a black man in a situation like that is is its own specific, you know, situation. And everywhere he worked, you know, it was so uncomfortable. Right. And of course, this is I mean, I know this is nothing revolutionary to anyone listening to this this idea of being. The only person who looks like you, the only person who has come from your background who's in this. And I've talked to so many people who they got the jobs. They ended up at these amazing places and they ended up at multicultural agencies because they just felt so alone and so discriminated against and microaggressions and everything else. We that's the gap we have to I mean, there's several gaps here. Right. But that's the one that really breaks my heart the most. Right. The fact that people are getting in the door. I think a lot about my own mother. She worked for NASA and she was an aerospace engineer in the 60s. She was the only woman in her entire class at Florida State going into aerospace engineering. Right. And she gets to Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama, where I where I grew up and there was something like two or three thousand men for every woman in in that in these technical roles. There were there were three women at the entire space flight center. In technical roles, my mom was one of them. Like, I mean, again, sadly, there are people who can imagine that who are listening to this, you know, but like for me, I I've never been in a situation like that where I'm outnumbered 2000 to one of people who who are come from a background like mine or look like me. And she persevered. And of course, women now make up, you know, a larger percentage of those roles and leadership. But like, how do we get past that and how do we do it without people feeling that their only good option is to escape to agencies where they are better represented already? Like, how do we make headway? And I mean, of course, like it starts from the top of those agencies. They have to be serious about this stuff and not just making token diversity hires and then, you know, again, not to jump around. But the other thing I keep hearing is the phrase set up to fail. Yep. You know, everywhere people go, they lay on a roll and they are not given any leadership training. They're not given any practical training. They're competing with essentially people who have come up through the system. Whatever industry it is, there is a system. And, you know, I benefited from coming up through Missouri, where they really beat into you how to do journalism. And when you land at your first job, you know exactly how to do journalism. Well, if you get famous for, you know, curating fashion marketing on Instagram, which is an awesome skill and you blow up and you become a super influencer for doing that. And then you get a job in that agency. You're not going to know how to make ads and nor should you be expected to. And we have to have the training and the will and the understanding that folks coming in from different backgrounds are not going to land and on day one have the skill sets that are that are expected of everyone who came before them. Well, that's such an interesting part because you talked about Black Twitter. You see it on Instagram. The young people, particularly at HBCs, are trendsetters. They're influences in that space. And yet there's not a lot of emphasis on, hey, you want to do that as a career? Hey, you ever thought about, you know, applying this skill to this area? So I do think that there is there has to be a more of a universal view of how you can take clearly obvious talent and say, no, go that way with it or do that with it, you know. So I think that that's that's that's on the industry, but our parts parts on the institutions as well. I would ask you this final question. As a reporter, as someone who's worked in the industry for years, leading voice on what, you know, add trends look like, what kind of predictions do you make considering the title wave of conversation you started? What kind of predictions do you see from the industry in terms of more DNI, more minority inclusion and opportunity going forward in the next maybe the next year or two as we look for a buffer zone between, you know, a really tense time to hopefully, hopefully prayerfully a more solvent time. I mean, this is a this is a safe prediction because it's happened. Sadly, this is what drives pretty much every form of progress when it comes to agencies and to advertising, right? It all begins with the clients, which is the brands, which is the companies that hire these agencies, right? Sadly, I believe that until they change, nothing matters, nothing changes. It's why sexist advertising only started to go away in the last 10 years, right? Like we all knew sexism was wrong 20 years ago when I was starting on this stuff, but we still saw sexist ads. But finally, there's enough women in leadership and marketing where that stuff tends to get shot down a lot faster. There's a lot more sensitivity about certain topics and certain backgrounds. LGBT inclusion and representation has gotten so much better because that community is so much better represented. My point is that we will see a trend continue, which we've already seen, obviously, that these companies will find the best diverse talent in agencies and they will steal them and they will pay them three times as much. And no one should ever feel bad about saying yes to that deal, right? And agencies have a few options for how they respond to that, right? They can either just feel like their best talent is keeps getting poached or they can embrace their role as a pipeline. When your co-worker gets hired by a company and they become your client, like that's the real test of how well you treated that co-worker, right? They're now calling the shots. And I've seen so many people treat someone like garbage as a co-worker, as an employee, and that person gets hired by a brand. And then suddenly they're the client. And man, then they will do anything for you, you know? It's like, you know, man, have some, just treat people with respect on day one. And yeah, agencies, sadly, I think if I were starting out, if I were coming out of an HBCU and I had a marketing degree and there's a lot more steps to this or just whatever, a relevant degree or relevant background, I would look at agencies. I would actually give agencies a real shot, but I would be prepared for it to be a bit of a rough go. I would really try to milk every drop of practical experience I could get out of it and try to put as much of the garbage in the back of your head. And maybe I'm wrong and you have an amazing experience. But at the very worst, you learn the grind of making marketing, you know, of making ads of how does this work? How does, how do ads get bought and sold? I didn't know any of that when I started in advertising, but you have to know it. And so, you know, if nothing else, treat it like a boot camp where you just survive it and you learn as much and then you get hired by Instagram and you make, you know, 180,000 dollars. That's that I think is sadly, that's the best case scenario. But to go back to your question of how do how do things get better? Those those brands demand more from their agencies and not through multicultural agencies. And don't send me your one arm of your agency that actually deals with these issues. But I want to see I don't want to see you pitching me with an all white male team. I don't want to see you representing us out there like that. When those demands and those pressures increase, that's when we see change because I would love it if everyone was as idealistic and really wanted to see change because they believed in it. But, you know, I don't think I'm breaking it to anybody that that's not how capitalism has been working. And but but capitalism does work in certain other ways. And and I think that there is a path forward this year that's going to see more of those brands demanding more from their agencies.