 What has been the toughest individual lesson to learn to build a strong and healthy marriage? Wow. Do you want to go first? Yeah. Just because then you can finish it off nice. I would think that the toughest individual lesson is learning to die to yourself. We got married young which in a way I think is easier probably than getting married older because then you've kind of set your ways whereas we're young and really not so but you still there's just a dying like oh well he doesn't screw the toothpaste up you know what I mean just like crazy things. Put a stuffed on the shoe or you know like that kind of stuff and then you throw kids in there and all that too but yeah I would say Dying to yourself? Yeah. Before Pastor Lee answers I'm sure Pastor Lee is really easy to live with. You probably didn't have to die to yourself that much. Right. Exactly. Would you give if possible give a specific example of where you felt like this is a moment that I had to recognize that I had it like instead of trying to compromise or to assert what you wanted that you chose like this is a moment where I need to like to kind of go low and die to myself? Probably if I'm going to be honest probably like ministry just because it wasn't what I thought it was going to be and then finding out afterwards that it was you know what I mean and just struggling with that out of my own really insecurities in that and having to grow in that like I'm Jean I'm not Beth Moore you know what I mean like and so I think that was part of it and he never put any like pressure on me but it was more for me to be like this is my life I'm going to embrace it I'm going to love it it's a privilege and that kind of a thing you know what I mean like for me that was because he definitely knew his call and what it was and all that and I felt like Jane Pony up and let's do this kind of a thing. And she's done a great job I mean definitely the toughest individual lesson I think to build a strong marriage it doesn't matter who you are is that idea of dying to yourself and in that way marriage is a great discipleship tool because Jesus said if you're going to follow me deny yourself take up your cross and follow me well that has played out more in marriage probably than any other practical relationship that we have and like Jane said we were married very young and 20 and 21 when we got married and you know you're not you're not I don't care how spiritually mature you might be you're not really relationally mature at any age when you first get married especially when you're super young and I told Jane I was called in the ministry it wasn't a bait and switch but in her mind she saw marriage through the lens of what she'd grown up in which was the pastor's wife didn't really have any responsibilities the pastor preached on Sundays and you know went home studied and more of a denominational background and as time went on in building radiant obviously it's grown and our dynamics are different and even in the charismatic Pentecostal world there's so much pressure that is put on the pastor's wife to be a preacher to be a leader to write books and and that's great if that's what you're uniquely called to but it doesn't diminish the role of a wife of a help me and Jane has been an incredible an incredible pastor's wife and but it's been a learning curve and we've had lots of conversations and she definitely died to some of her own desires or comfort zones in order to support me and my calling and us and our calling and because of that I say that the pastor's wife in the church probably has the hardest job in the church because my role is clearly defined hers is not necessarily but so that's a great example of that but in my own experience it's also been dying to myself because you know we look at relationships so often about getting our needs met out of the relationship but if we're really honest about it marriages about dying to your own way of doing things individually and trying to find a way to do it together and honor one another and so in my own immaturity you know I like things a certain way when growing up it's like I don't want my socks balled up I like them folded in half I like my shirts quartered and folded in a certain way and I don't do any of that so I asked my wife if you know hey could you not do this with my laundry and she's like you could do your own laundry if you want to and that's what she said and I said that I then I will die to myself I'll let you do it for me yeah and so I have died to myself she has helped me die to myself on some of those areas but the beauty of that is marriage is about two becoming one it's not about two coexisting individually and that's the biggest lesson so it's a really quick follow-up to that you guys spoke a lot about you know relationally or maybe preferences but what would you say to two people that you know they individually love the Lord felt like they have a calling from the Lord but maybe those callings don't look the same and so now they're coming together you know in in a dating or marriage relationship and who has to move to who has to if it feels like it's like a calling from the Lord in a specific area ministry does that make sense yeah it does and those situations are so difficult to navigate through because they're hypothetical but I would say if you're in a dating relationship and your callings your if both people have a very strong sense of calling and ambition and they don't work together don't get married and try and force it because that's going to be a point of conflict if you are married and you feel that tension that what you need to do is have a mentor pastor or leader or somebody that you can trust that can help you walk through that and help prioritize that maybe help find areas of continuity where you can support and strengthen one another the Bible says that you know a strand a three-chord strand is not easily broken apart most of the time we take that scripture to mean husband and wife plus the Lord and it's true but often times when we need strength in our marriage we need to add a counselor their safety and a multitude of counselors they can help and to I think that there is a beautiful like compromise like not compromise but companionship kind of a thing with it like it's your gifting your strength my strength coming together I mean unless one wants to go to Africa and one wants to stay here right I think it's you could pretty much you can find a compromise exactly and Jane and I are totally different I mean we are radically different individuals but the Lord knew what he was doing because when he when he called us together and I really do believe this is our calling to lead a people to lead a church and to lead a movement of churches even though I'm the out front guy with the you know the pastoral calling and the teaching I couldn't be who I am as a man and as a leader if it wasn't for the gift of Jane and the leader that she is the mother the example she prays she has wisdom and discernment that helps me in ways that people don't even know and so we instead of her trying to be like me or you know me not being who I am in order to not put pressure on her we've learned a way to work together and it's it's beautiful