 Hi, my name is Tamara Mahoney and this is the Open Energy Access web series. We have all the most recent episodes of Open Energy Access on the NXS YouTube page and Open Energy Access is also published in a podcast which is available in any podcast player. Open Energy Access is a show that I started to have a place to talk about open innovation projects, development ideas and generally speaking open principles within the energy access sector. So today I'm talking with Oscar, a power systems engineer with Okra. We're going to be talking about one of their most recent projects, the Cicada Wi-Fi. This is a communications module that provides internet access to remote communities. I think you will want to watch or to listen to this episode if you are a similar sort of company like Okra. They create technology that enables affordable and reliable access for anyone in the world. So if you are a similar sort of company, this is definitely going to be a conversation that you should listen to. Or if you're working in a mini-grade company or an SHS company in a remote area, you're definitely going to want to hear this. Or honestly, if you're just a communication technology enthusiast or an open source enthusiast, we really invite everyone to listen. Before we get into the chat, I will do some introductions. So as I mentioned, my name is Tamara and I work at the NXS Foundation. NXS funds open innovation in energy access and we also promote and educate about open innovation. So the goal of NXS is to get more people in energy access, adopting, contributing to, or using open innovation tools. NXS has funded the Cicada project and Oscar was really the main point of contact for that. You are what I would describe as the project leader. So with that introduction and my side of the story behind me, why don't I turn this over to you. Oscar, can you tell me a little bit about yourself when you got started working in energy access and what you do with Okra? My name is Oscar Acheson. I am an electrical engineer specializing in energy access and in microgrids specifically. That's what I've kind of devoted the last five or so years of my life to trying to solve the problem of energy access and eventually came across the co-founders of Okra, Afi and Daimo, who had this concept that in its infancy was not quite what it is today, the mesh grid, but was based around this kind of fundamental idea of okay, how can we make energy access happen faster and more affordably? And it was based around the idea, okay, this guy has a solar panel on his roof. It's not being used all of the time. The capacity is not being fully utilized. How do we take some of that spare capacity and use it in the neighbor's house? And that was the fundamental concept that got Okra started. So I've now been working with those guys at Okra designing the mesh grid and trying to improve that product today where we've deployed mesh grids with partners in I think five or six countries and yeah, particularly in the Philippines, that's where we've got most of our devices out there at the moment. So yeah, really excited to talk about the next phase of evolution for the mesh grid. Why don't you start by telling us a little bit about what a mesh grid is? What makes it different than a mini-grid or a micro-grid? Yeah, that's definitely something that we need to do. So a mesh grid, you can think of it as a network of interconnected solar home systems. So unlike a mini-grid, a centralized mini-grid, where there is a power plant in one central location, a whole lot of solar panels and batteries, and you're distributing that power from one place all the way to every single house in the village, a mesh grid is decentralized. So each house typically has its own solar panel, its own battery, and cables going in between them. And our device that we manufacture, the Ocropod, is the kind of brains of the system. It's deciding, okay, this house, this battery has all the power it needs, there's some spare solar power available, I'm going to send it onto the grid where somebody else can receive it. So yeah, it's kind of this dynamic smart grid that's balancing supply and demand throughout the grid as needed. And really the benefit that we bring by doing it this way is bringing down a lot of the heavy distribution costs that come with a centralized mini-grid approach. So generally quite a large percentage of the cost of a mini-grid comes from the actual cable distribution poles and wires that are quite heavy infrastructure running all throughout a village. So that makes them quite complex from an engineering perspective, and it also makes them expensive. So we're trying to remove both the complexity and the cost by decentralizing into what we call a mesh grid. So Ocropod is sort of the, you guys are manufacturing, you're creating the technology that you then sell to the mini-grid company or the SHS company in order for them to distribute the electricity. Am I right? That's right. Yeah, we're a technology company. We build hardware, we build software, and we package everything that you need to set up a mesh grid into a kit, and we sell those kits to customers around the world, Nigeria, Haiti, Cambodia, Philippines, and others. Okay. So what we're going to talk about today now that we kind of know a little bit more about what Ocropod does, although I bet a lot of people that would be watching are already familiar with your name. We're going to be talking specifically about Siketa today, and that's your name for this communication module. So we're not talking about the insect. At this point, it sounds so normal to me to be like, yeah, we're talking about Siketa, et cetera, et cetera, without actually saying. We should clarify that, yeah, we're not talking about literal Siketa insects, yeah. No. So you guys have decided today this communication module. Siketa, can you tell me why? We kind of have that tech startup, Apple type mindset of naming things in what we hope is a memorable way rather than calling it the IoT Wi-Fi communications module. Yeah. Yeah. I like it. I mean, it does roll off the tongue a lot easier than everything else you just said. Yeah, why the insect? I don't really know. A lot of people ask us, why Ocropod? Exactly. Why not? We don't really have a great story, to be honest. Yeah. I mean, it's a really easy word to say in a lot of languages. So that is smart actually. Yeah, it has had that benefit. Yeah. So I think what a lot of people who may be watching and listening, they probably already know this, but it's kind of good to just sort of set the scene to remind people that the types of modern off-grid energy solutions that exist today, they rely on internet connectivity. This is just again, to kind of try to set the scene by asking you to tell me about what Siketa does because I keep referring to it as a communication module. And I think we should kind of put that into plainer English. So what is Siketa? What does Siketa do? Sure. So I'm going to try very hard to not use the words communication module. Thank you. I would love to have different words to say. But it is a really the device that allows any, so we can talk about the Ocropod, which is the device that we manufacture. It needs to communicate with the outside world. It needs to send data on energy consumption, on solar panel production, battery state of charge, customer billing information, a whole suite of pieces of information that needs to send and receive. So how does it do that? Well, you can communicate over the cellular network, 2G, 3G, 4G, or you can communicate in some cases over satellite, which is what we're going to talk about, or over Wi-Fi if there is a Wi-Fi network locally in the community, which we'll also talk about. So the Sikata is really simply, it's the chip that facilitates that communication. So it's a chip. Yeah, it's a chip with some, yeah, there you go. No, but tell me, so why is it important to have this connectivity? So if you're setting up a mini-grid in a community or in SHS, you're selling solar home systems to customers, why does this company need to communicate information to where, why? Again, I think a lot of our listeners or viewers probably know the answer to this question, so we don't have to go too deep into it, but I'm thinking about people, yeah, who are a little bit outside of our sector who are just, have that question, why? Yeah, put simply for an operator to provide some kind of energy service or any kind of service to these really remote communities, they need to be able to see what's happening, and they ideally need to see that remotely, because it is, we talked about the last mile, these places can be incredibly difficult to, and expensive to travel to. So it's really become a must in our sector to put as much of that information on the cloud, on the internet as possible. Think about the scale of the problem we're trying to solve, right? Hundreds of millions of people. It's in incredibly remote areas, it's just never going to happen if it relies on a bunch of traditional utility methods of employing heaps of staff in every location. We need to be smarter and use what technology has to offer if we're going to solve the problem. I'm not sure if you were working with Okra when Cicada was first released. I think you were. When Cicada was first released, it was with 2G, 3G, 4G, and then there was kind of a break, and now it's being released anew with Wi-Fi capability. Can you tell me why it happened in this way, and what is so special about adding Wi-Fi to it? I guess I could start by giving a little bit of background on why it was even necessary to develop this module in the first place. For a company like ours, we're trying to develop hardware. By hardware, I mean electronic PCBs that perform a specific function in the field. To do that, you want to start by using whatever is already available. If there are off-the-shelf kits or boards that you can use that fulfill a specific purpose, then you want to try and leverage that. We were doing that in the initial phases, but using off-the-shelf 2G communications modules. It really caused us endless headaches, because they weren't designed for what we were trying to do in these super remote areas. They were just not rugged enough. They were failing all the time. We were having all sorts of problems that were very difficult to diagnose, and that prompted the need for, okay, we need a better solution to be out there. We're going to put the effort into developing it, but other hardware companies that are in the same boat will also need access to this. Hence the first collaboration with you guys with an access that enabled us to get the funding to actually develop an in-house 2G, 3G, 4G communication solution, and then open-source that so that other companies like us didn't have to go through the pain of using the crappy off-the-shelf solution. They could have access to all the design files and everything and understand the firmware and tweak it to their own needs, which is really important, because if you're trying to debug something, you need to understand how it works. You need to have all the design, all the source code available to you. That was really the background between behind why SCADA. Then the next phase, which we've just completed now, the SCADA Wi-Fi, it was something that we had on the horizon for a little while, but has become increasingly important for us, because we've run into these scenarios more and more where 2G connectivity is less prevalent and less reliable than we had thought, honestly. We're running into quite a lot of scenarios with our customers where there's either zero cellular connectivity at all in a site that they want to energize or they have to, that they've been given to energize, or there is some 2G connectivity, but it's very, very weak or very, very spotty, so it's only available in this one location in the community. There was that twin need of, okay, we need a solution that's going to be able to cope with these low or no connectivity environments, and Wi-Fi was what we decided to go with to solve that problem. Again, the same needs exist for other companies that are going through a similar journey, having access to all the design files and being able to adapt it to their own needs, but we'll just save them time and money. The fact that this project is open source is so important for energy access. By open source, we really mean the hardware, the firmware, everything is available on GitHub. I want to ask you about the pilot project and how it went, and for you to describe the type of community this is listed in, but having made this technology open source, and just one minute or less, have you seen any downside to that? No, we've thought about it at various stages. What if competitors use this to get a leg up on us? Which is the kind of common concern, right? No, I mean, I think that the openness that we have with other similar companies in the space is something that I really like about our space. We kind of recognize that we're all trying to solve a really, really hard problem, and we're doing it, hopefully, most of us for the right reasons. I find that there's generally a lot more willingness to share information, and use that ethically, right? Not using information that you're given by somebody else to take advantage of them or whatever. In short, I haven't seen any downside to open sourcing this stuff. Okay, so to go back to the scene where you're talking about making the Cicada Wi-Fi, when you were coming out with this, you wanted to do a pilot, like to do the field testing, to see how it would work. So you picked this village in the Philippines called May Bujo, May Bujo in the Philippines, and you worked with a company who had kind of operations on the ground there called Ateko. So they had been, I read your case study, and you had written that they had been operating with the Okra mesh grid, I think already for a couple years, but they were doing that without any cell signal. So I'd like you, if you can, to kind of paint a picture of what that looked like. As is often the case with energy access projects, you have to work with the regulators and within local regulations, and they don't always necessarily give you total freedom to choose the perfect site for your project. So I'm sure that Ateko probably would have opted to choose sites that were easier to access and more, you know, had cellular connectivity for a start, but that was not part of the area that they were given, right? So they had to provide a solution for this specific village, and they did that with Okra mesh grids, even though it is running offline, it still does function, you know. We built it in such a way that all of the core grid functions still work autonomously without any kind of signal, but what they were lacking is, A, the ability to do any kind of advanced billing system, so to track consumption and bill people based on their consumption, in a prepaid way at least. And the other thing that they were lacking was any kind of visibility on when things went wrong, right? So if a battery was degraded and wasn't getting a full charge or anything like that, there wasn't something that they had any visibility on, so if there was a problem, they would have to physically send somebody to go out and check it out, and that's a lot of time, a lot of money, and it's very difficult, right? So it's doable, and they did it for a couple of years, but yeah, it's difficult, and it's something that operating an off-grid energy business is already difficult enough, so you need to- I think that's a nice summary for the start of this conversation. It's like, well, what does it like to work without any connectivity? It's difficult enough. Let's solve the connectivity solution. So yeah, and I also encourage anyone watching or listening, you've really got to read the case study that Oscar authored because you talk about just in order for the person working in the village to have any communication with a TECO. It's like a hike up a mountain to get any kind of signal, and yeah, you can kind of feel yourself there, kind of like you have a simple problem to solve, and it might take days just to communicate the simple problem with a potential super, so yeah. And this is the case, not just in Mabuho, but there are- Sure. Many, many communities in the Philippines and around the world, but specifically the Philippines has this issue of so many islands, thousands and thousands of islands that make up the Philippines, and lots of fishing communities that live on those islands that are yeah, really quite isolated from any sort of infrastructure. There's still so many people left that don't have connectivity and they've been sort of deprioritized until now, and you can see why, I guess. Right, yeah, you know, if you have the ability to choose to have your pick of sites, you're going to try and choose ones that are going to be easier to operate, they're closer to where, you know, a regional center or mainland or whatever. But they may not- there may be very good candidates for electrification otherwise, you know, it could be a- in the case of the Philippines, there are hell of a lot of large off-grid communities that are- that have a reasonably steady income from their fishing, that makes them quite good candidates from an economics point of view, as in they have the ability to pay for energy relatively consistently, you know, it is still off-grid we're talking about, so of course they have seasonal incomes just like everyone, but generally speaking, these Filipino fishing communities can be really, really good candidates for these off-grid energy systems because they can pay for them, but yeah, if they lack any way to communicate, it makes operations really difficult. So why don't you get a bit technical for a moment and tell me, how does this work? How- what is the VSAT technology? How do you bring Wi-Fi into an unconnected community? VSAT satellite internet is something that has been around for quite a while, actually. It's- it's not something that we invented, but- and it's not something that Elon Musk invented either with Starlink, but it is basically the same principle with Starlink. It's- it's using satellites to set up a base station in a- in a location and use that- that signal to then set up a network, a communications network throughout the site. So VSAT is the way that we communicate with the outside world and Wi-Fi is the way that we take that signal and distribute around the site, which is what we did in- in Mapujo. The costs are actually fully laid out in the case study that you mentioned. At least in the case of the Philippines, it- it really is getting to the point where it's quite affordable. We're- you know, we're only talking about a few thousand dollars for- for the actual capex of the satellite dish and all the various communications equipment, routers, etc. So no, it's not an expensive undertaking. The cool thing about this project being open- and that's why when we were talking about the money before I mentioned, like, and Access funded this, you know, this project because it's open source. So because we hope this has this kind of ripple effect, it can help other companies scale more quickly, you know, contributions. Like, there's so many ways to- to grow quicker, to get energy to communities quicker. And yeah, the fact that you guys laid out all the costs and everything is there in the- in the case study for people to read. And I kind of want to talk about- about what happens in the community when- when you did the field testing. So you went out, you- you know, you- you- you tested it. It was successful. It worked. And what sort of impact did you see when you were- when- when everyone was out there? And was it what you expected? And when I- when I'm asking about what it was you expected, I- I know that when you set up a project like this, you know, you kind of have, okay, like, here's my expectation. This is sort of my mark of success. So did you reach that and did anything happen that was kind of unplanned? Uh, there are always- the answer to that is always yes. There are always unplanned things that happen. Um, but thankfully, uh, the implementation was smoother than expected, and the devices performed better than expected. So we thought we were going to have real trouble getting all of the pods in every single house to communicate with the- uh, the outdoor access points, uh, Wi-Fi access points that we set up around the- the community. Uh, but thankfully, uh, they performed very well, and we actually feel like we kind of overdid it, and we didn't need, uh, as much equipment as we bought, um, which was- which was nice. So, uh, I feel confident that there's room to optimize the costs and the design even further. So, yeah, that- that part of it went smoothly. The impact, uh, the immediate impact to, uh, Teco and their business, uh, is that they're able to see these households on our software platform harvests for the first time. So they're actually able to start getting some information, uh, about their operations for the first time. How much energy are people consuming from these systems? Okay, can we, uh, you know, start looking at things like appliance financing? Now we can do that because, you know, that's a feature that- that we have that allows you to kind of bundle appliance financing in with people's energy bills. So now they can look at that and go, okay, yeah, uh, this customer, uh, maybe we can offer them a freezer on finance and, uh, have them- have the payments be tracked on our platform. So that's really the- the short-term impact that, uh, we were kind of going for with this implementation, but the perhaps more significant question that we were trying to answer, uh, that we haven't yet answered, uh, it'll take another few months of- of kind of monitoring to get there, uh, is can a Teco comfortably cover the costs, the ongoing costs of the VSAT service by offering, uh, internet as a service to these, uh, to this community in addition to the energy service? Because if they can do that, uh, efficiently and, you know, uh, consistently, then that makes the- the fundamental business case for installing the VSAT, uh, viable. And it means they can replicate that to all of their sites, uh, and they've got quite a number of these sites that don't have any connectivity. Uh, and it's, uh, yeah, it's a great thing for the communities themselves and for Teco scaling their impact. Um, so yeah, that's- we've kind of anecdotally heard that, uh, this is- this is working out well, but, uh, we'll need a little bit more time to really say for sure. The Cicada Wi-Fi was kind of bought in to kind of be this, you know, to give these very obvious and very important benefits for the company, right? So to be able to monitor everything is fantastic. But now you're kind of mentioning there's also this idea that Wi-Fi could be offered as a service, basically, you know, so that just people in the community would now have access to the internet. That's right, yeah, because you're- you're bringing this, uh, you're bringing an internet connection to the site, uh, and that internet connection is only a very tiny fraction of the bandwidth that you're purchasing is actually being used for, uh, transmitting this IoT device data, you know, energy consumption and things like that. Uh, you know, it's in the order of megabytes per month, right? Um, so there's all this unused capacity, uh, so if you can make use of that by, uh, offering it to the community, you're giving the community a very valuable service, and you're also bringing in another revenue stream, uh, for your operations as a- as an, uh, energy micro-developer operator. And that's- that's making the entire model, uh, more economically viable and interesting. I know that, uh, funders are increasingly starting to look at this, uh, this, like, multi-service or multi-utility model, uh, as a way forward, like, to improve the unit economics of- of mini-grids. So, uh, yeah, I- I think it's- this pilot for us has been, uh, a way to kind of try and demonstrate that, yeah, you can actually offer these, uh, these multiple services and it, uh, can not only, uh, cover its own costs, but it can also provide all these additional benefits. I mean, you know, I- I never want to be too, uh, too optimistic, maybe is the wrong word, but, uh, I don't- I don't want to portray our impact as, uh, uh, you know, much greater than it- than it is. Um, so I'm always cautious of saying, uh, you know, it's gonna transform people's lives and- and things like that. Uh, but, uh, I am, uh, genuinely really, uh, excited to see, uh, the benefits that the community gets from having this access for the first time, because all of the activities that are made so much more difficult, uh, by a lack of telecommunications, uh, it seems so obvious that there should be massive improvements in those areas. So, uh, whether it's the ability to do business, you know, uh, that you catch a bunch of fish, you- you need to call people up, buyers, etc., uh, you don't have to, you know, go climb a nearby mountain to do that anymore. Uh, you know, there are all these kids going to school, um, who don't have the ability to, uh, you know, Google something or, uh, you know, access educational materials that now will have that. So, uh, yeah, these are all kind of more long range impacts. And then, uh, I think one of the most, uh, potentially impactful things, in my opinion, is the ability for people to communicate, uh, during, uh, kind of a crisis or a disaster situation, right? So, uh, there are a lot of, uh, typhoon, uh, strength storms in the Philippines every single year. Uh, even if it's not actually a typhoon, uh, like just a severe tropical storm, it's still, for these communities, really impactful to have some, uh, some ability to communicate with the outside world because, uh, past a certain point, the Coast Guard basically says you're not allowed to, uh, not allowed to have any, uh, any boat travel because it's too dangerous, right? We'll have to come and rescue you, you know? So, all these communities during these tropical storm events that happen like 20 times a year are completely cut off from the outside world. So, you know, imagine what happens. You're, you're on an island in the middle of a tropical storm. Something bad happens. You can't even, you know, leave your island or you, yeah, nobody's going to come and get you, right? Right. So that's the most basic, the most basic need, right? Is just the ability to communicate. Yeah. For the outside world. It doesn't have to go much more than that before you can start to imagine all the other ways, everything that, that means, but you're, you're absolutely right. You know, just opening that up starts, uh, starts everything. And I, and I understand where you're coming from in terms that you don't want to predict and you don't want to promise everything. I don't want to say that I'm the cause of, you know, Ocaro. Right. We're doing all these things, but I just think in general. You're putting the idea. Yeah. Yeah. And the idea is there. Right. I'm sure that you, I don't think Ocaro is the only company in the world that's working on this problem. But it is open sourced for anyone else to look at and for anyone else to do better if, if it didn't work out for one reason or another. You've laid it out there so that if this didn't work out well, if the plan needed to be tweaked, um, everything is there. And that is already tremendously helpful. So, um, I mean, that's what an access is excited about. And again, I'm just speaking for myself here, but that's, that's why we all do this. Right. Yeah. And I would hope that I think it's okay to, to say it like that. Like this is, this is the point we're looking to, um, to improve things. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I would, I would just encourage like, uh, anybody who is currently doing micro groups or, uh, yeah, deploying energy access solutions to just think about, uh, is it also possible to offer these, uh, these other services, be it internet or be it, you know, water or something like that. I know it's, uh, it's an additional layer of complexity, but I guess my hope from the outcomes of this project is that we can show that it, it doesn't have to be that complex, you know. Um, and hopefully we've, we've helped, uh, some other companies look at this and go, oh yeah, there's enough information here that I can, I can take to my decision makers and, uh, and try this out for myself. So what do you think is, is next for Cicada Wi-Fi? Where, where do you plan to go with it after, you know, the successful pilot and everything? What, what do you see happening? Like I said earlier, I really want to, uh, see the data come through on, uh, willingness to pay for an internet service in the community consistently. And if that is, uh, easily covering the costs, um, then that's the justification that, uh, companies like Ateco need to, uh, to roll this out into many more communities, uh, without any connectivity. So that, that's my, my hope of where we get to, uh, from a technological standpoint, um, we're also looking into the future and trying to think about, uh, okay, we've kind of done this first pass at a, at a telecommunication solution that's not based on cellular, but, uh, how can we improve it? How can we make it easier and simpler? So, you know, we're looking at, um, different communications protocols. We're also looking at, you know, ways to extend the range to make it, uh, easier so that there are fewer devices, fewer gateways, I suppose, um, required for a larger site. Um, so our aim is to keep innovating on that and trying it in our other markets where we have customers. So in Haiti, we've got a customer who's looking at this right now, uh, that's really exciting. Uh, and we'd like to do the same in, in Nigeria, um, because you know, similar needs, uh, not, not on islands this time, but still plenty of zero connectivity areas that need a solution. So, um, yeah, that's where we'd like to get to is, uh, proving this out in, in all of the markets where we have customers. Well, thank you, um, so much for chatting with me about this today. Um, is there anything that you'd like to add, maybe where to find the information or how to get in contact or anything? Yeah, I guess we, we should mention that, uh, if you're interested in using the, uh, Wi-Fi Secata, uh, in your product prototype, if you're developing a product that, uh, you want to add Wi-Fi capability to, um, obviously, yeah, we already mentioned the design files are all in GitHub, but we also have, uh, manufactured a, a number of, uh, boards, physical boards, uh, on a marketplace called, uh, Seed Studio, that, uh, they're facilitating the whole, uh, shipping and everything. So, uh, you're able to just go onto that website and click add to cart and have it shipped out to you. And you can have a Wi-Fi Secata, uh, for you to prototype and play with, uh, as a, uh, as a development tool. So, uh, yeah, I guess if you're interested in trying to use this, feel free to jump on there, buy a prototype, look at the design files, and if you've got any questions, reach out to our team and, uh, be happy to, happy to answer any questions. Yeah, that was a really, uh, a really cool part of this project is being able to, to order the board directly. It's ready to go. And, um, everything that you need to use, um, Secata is, if you go to nxs.org, uh, Okra, Secata, you're going to get to the GitHub, you're going to get to the Seed Studio, you're going to get to Okra's website, you're going to get to the case study. So it's kind of like, everything you need to get started is on nxs.org. And of course on Secata's homepage, you have, I'm sorry, on Secata's homepage, on Okra's homepage, you have, uh, you know, everything you need to learn more and to get in contact with, um, with everyone at, at Okra who's, uh, yeah, been a fantastic partner to work with on this project. Uh, we love the way that you guys write your documentation. And I think that is, uh, something that not enough people get praised for. So thank you for doing excellent documentation and, um, for, yeah, for, for bringing, you know, Secata out there and to open sourcing it and to being open to do that. And for just being so transparent with, um, you know, everything that you've been transparent, been transparent with so far. So this is definitely, uh, what we believe is going to help achieve universal energy access faster. So thanks for working with us. Yeah, no problem. Thanks to an access for the support. I think, uh, you know, you guys perform a really useful function, uh, in the industry that's kind of hard to define. Um, but it's the, it's kind of the catalyst for projects like this that otherwise wouldn't happen. Right. You might have a lot of companies out there who are willing to open source stuff. But to get the buy in and spend the time to, you know, like you said, put documentation around it and everything, uh, yeah, you kind of need some, some extra support and some justification for that. So having the funding available from an access was, uh, was great for us to, to internally get the buy in like, okay, yeah, let's do this and let's open source it. And I think that's, uh, that's a really useful function in the industry. So yeah, thank you. Yeah. And I encourage, you know, anyone who's listening, who's in energy access, if you have an idea for a project that you're working on, that you think, um, you know, for us, your project has to have value for more than just your company. So we want the project to be successful and we want you to like grow and have lots of success, you know, both professionally and maybe even, you know, make a profit on it, whatever, that, that's great. But the idea is that, uh, the projects that we fund have the potential for much bigger impact than that, that they could, um, yeah, have this ripple effect. So if you're working on something, um, like that in energy access, uh, and you need funding, then head over to our website and see, go through our FAQs, check out our funding limits and, um, yeah, send in your application. We don't have deadlines. So we are open to receiving applications pretty much anytime. If, if for some reason we can't, we wouldn't have the, the form up on our website. So if you see it, apply. And, uh, thanks again, Oscar. It was a really nice, uh, conversation with you today and we'll, uh, yeah, we'll let everyone know, you know, towards the end of 2022, um, how things are looking, uh, with Sikita Wi-Fi and, uh, and we'll keep sharing. So thanks again and thank you everyone who's watching or listening. Um, subscribe, whether that's on YouTube or in your podcast player and send it to a friend. All right. Well, yeah. Thanks. Thanks tomorrow for the chat, really appreciate it. And, uh, yeah, we'll, uh, we'll let you know how it's going in a few months. Okay. See you later. Bye-bye.